Annihilation | Watchman Specific Feedback

[oofalong]

There are a number of threads discussing the problems with the current discipline, utility talents and general Mara | Sent feedback as well as a number of threads outlining desired changes in 3.1.1. While I think it is great to identify and discuss all of these things, too often the created thread starts or becomes too inclusive/convoluted to build consensus for specific/actionable ideas and solutions. To combat this, I propose a number of very specific threads to discuss specific problems/annoyances. I have started one here, and I may start others if this thread is effective. I would encourage others to start specific threads for problems/annoyances they are passionate about instead of posting to the mega-threads.

 

I hope the ensuing conversation remains focused on the problems/annoyance specific to Annihilation | Watchman; I have posed one such question below. Hopefully, we can reach consensus on this before this thread starts tackling too many more questions. Periodically, I may try to summarize the discussion so new participants in the thread don't have to read from the beginning.

 

The biggest problem/annoyance I have heard is about the playstyle of the discpline now. Given the lengths of DoTs, resource constraints, lack of synergy among skills, the discipline has become very different in 3.0. In short, the rotation has no dynamism. Moreover, I think the new rotation is too punishing when we can't maintain high uptime or when bad RNG limits resource.

 

I have seen a lot of people ask for the CD and proc returned to Rupture | Cauterize; this is not a simple solution. Rupture | Cauterize's DoT can account for as much as 40% of ALL of our proc'ed resource since we have a tick every second indfeinitely. Therefore, adding the CD and proc back in may seriously resource starve us. Thus, any solution to add dynamism needs to reduce our dependency on this DoT for proc'ed resource. I am sure there are many solutions.

 

So for those who want Rupture | Cauterize to have a CD and proc, how do you combat the resource issues and what does the new rotation look like?

[Genghistwelve]

Build on the same as it ever was. Build on the effect that is now currently Plasma Blades. Right now its add 1 focus for crit on burn. There's no reason the universe of appropriate focus triggers can't be expanded as needed, adding focus upon certain events: killing target or other things. Right now it's 20% chance which may be a bit low if the ability CD situation changed. If we're too focus starved in such a situation that CD's are returned, then that can be upped. Additional help could come with the return of Retaliation and it returning X focus on use to supplement the focus return on crit burns.

 

Doing this has other benefits; it then introduces uncertainty on appropriate gearing, favoring main stat once again due to the crit chance that comes with it -- but by a difficult to quantify amount. Which is always a more interesting experience.

 

Other solutions could be make Jedi Crusader a base stat effect, and perhaps even expand the effect to our other defensive CD's, and/or even FC.

 

We have a number of opportunities that could include a mix of passive effects, returns of focus when attacked, and active effects -- return focus on damage. I think the proper balance could be achieved.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Genghistwelve

[TACeMossie]

So for those who want Rupture | Cauterize to have a CD and proc, how do you combat the resource issues and what does the new rotation look like?

 

I don't actually want that system in place, but if it happens I propose the proc would also make the next Rupture/Cauterize free

[Ardarell_Solo]

The problem is obviously the 4sec rate limit they introduced on our passive resource generation. I think the reason for that is the introduction of dot spreading. We would create crazy amounts of focus by spreading both dots on 4 targets. This would be especially op in PvP.

 

Solution: Remove the rate limit, but restrain resource generation from Dots to targets that got the dot applied "manually", i.e. not be Smash dotspreading.

 

If that's too difficult we could indeed simply go for a free Cauterize on proc.

 

Outlining the rotation is a bit difficult, as that depends on what happens to Force Melt, which a lot of people (including myself) also don't like. If it stays the way it is, things will be complicated. Added to this, rotation depends on Cauterize's duration, which frankly I don't like at 12 secs either.

 

If Force Melt is changed in the manner I suggested here and Cauterize goes back to 6s duration, we could basically go back to the old rotation with Force Melt replacing some of the Slashes we used to have in pre 3.0 rotation. That's my favourite...

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[Sapperlot]

Hi there,

i think this isn´t easy to anwser. I think everyone who want the old proccing system back miss the flow of the old tree. (inkl. me:rolleyes:)

In my opinion the flow is gone with the longer duration of rupture and in particular Force Rend. Also the Dot-Tracking is a big issue even that you can sort the debuffs.

The Dot Spread with Smash is also an issue in fact that this was a skill Anni din´t use at all.

What are the possible Solutions? Here i have some.

1. Revert all. Make Force Rend an replacement for Annihilate, Deadly Saber or Rupture. Keep only the skill that produces double Stacks. The long ramp up time was one of the main issues bevore 3.0.

That is the solution i would prefer the most.

2. Bring back Rupture with 6sec duration and 9 sec cooldown with Procc-Chance. Reduce the Rage costs of rupture. Make Force Rend 1/3 duration and free and usable with 1 Stack. Usable with no GCD. Otherwise we get problems with using too often Force rend with all the cooldowns of the other skills.

3. Change only Force Rend. Make it usable only with 3 Stacks and instead a Dot an instand Hard Hitting ability. Damage should be what it produces now over the duration and some more for the reason that every one of the ticks can crit.

That wouldn´t bring back the flow but it solves the issue that an dot with 18 sec duration is way to long.

 

In my opinion Forcce rend is the main problem now. It doesn´t realy fit at all.

The same is with Dot Spread with smash. DST should spread the dot´s. Which is valid for every of my solutions. It should spread 2 stacks of deadly Saber an the rupte dot.

 

Thanks for reading.

Sorry for the wall of text and my bad english.

[Emperor-Norton]

So for those who want Rupture | Cauterize to have a CD and proc, how do you combat the resource issues and what does the new rotation look like?

Remove the ICD's fixes so many Focus management issues. I forget the exact math, but it came to something like the new ICDs make you a lose bit under 1 focus every 6 seconds, so basically one less focus per Merciless Slash (my memory is a bit fuzzy but I am pretty sure it is this).

 

Slash wasn't used that much before the 2.8 changes that decreased Merciless Slash's cost. It used to be the best way to get a proc was consistent uses of Merciless every 6 seconds, which required good rotation and resource management to need 5 focus every 4th GCD without fail. You used Slash from time to time, but it was mostly a focus dump or used to try and get a proc if Merciless failed. When the lowered cost of Merciless was implemented in 2.8 and then the ICD was removed in 2.10, it created a meta of the optimal thing to do was use Slash as proactive as possible and Merciless was more a formality for proccing Cauterize. This was due to A. More Focus in the rotation due to Merciless cost reduction and B. the ICD made it so you couldn't use Slash to get ahead of the game on Mind Sear procs, that was now gone. Sure Merciless was the surefire way to proc it, but if you wanted the best result the focus was using Slash as much as possible to guarantee a proc before you even used Merciless. Before you had a consistent two GCDs where Mind Sear was not a factor. You could then use those to recoup resource or use your filler attacks like TST or Master Strike. So what I am getting at is Watchman having more fillers which conflicts spamming Slash for procs shouldn't be a problem since you traditionally didn't spam Slash to begin with. It used to be more focused on Merciless and building for Merciless. So a new rotation that features more fillers which conflicts with Slash spam won't be as much of an issue since Slash spam wasn't always the focus of the rotation. Having the ICD back removes using Slash to get ahead of the game and makes the fillers fit in much more naturally. While Merciless still has the reduced cost, which makes it easier to fit in the GCD for Force Melt application. TST was in the rotation to begin with. However I do think 18 second Master Strike is too much for Watchman and needs some kind of a cooldown increase.

 

Also, Oofalong I really don't think losing the idea that RNG on Cauterize causing problems with resource management is as big of a concern as you make it out to be. This was always the case before 3.0, however now we have consistent ticks from Force Melt, which really helps both Plasma Blades and Burning Focus. So yeah it will affect things slightly I suppose, but it really wasn't a problem before and I doubt it will be if the proc returns.

 

Change List that imo needs to happen:

 

- Return Cauterize to a 6 second dot with a 15 second cooldown. 15 seconds hits that niche of making the next two procs matter, while if the second happens to fail it will naturally come off CD right before the third Merciless (assuming the player is using Cauterize directly after Merciless). Having it be 12 seconds or less invalidates the purpose of missing a proc in the first or second Merciless, which is the point of the proc.

 

- Return the proc for a Cauterize cooldown reset caused by Merciless 75% of the time, and Slash 45% of the time. This QoL change really needs to happen, the removal of this proc was widely despised and caused huge numbers of players to abandon their Marauders in PvE and PvP.

 

- Return the 6 second internal cooldown for procs of Cauterize. The change to this took the focus of the proc away from using Merciless and heavily shifted things to Slash. With so many more filler attacks to incorporate into the rotation, the mechanic of using Slash to ensure a Cauterize proc before a Merciless and the reapplication of Cauterize will cause many problems with the rotations priority system and feel. Having the ICD back would give the player a time where proccing Cauterize is not a concern, and would allow them to recoup resource, apply Force Melt, and use their filler attacks. While at the same time giving a sort of "behind the scenes" timing for Min-Max style players to keep track of.

 

- Change Plasma Blades to have a 1.5 second Internal Cooldown instead of 4, while having no Internal Cooldown on Burning Focus.

 

- Change Burning Sweep to have Twin Saber Thow be the attack that spreads Dots and not Force Sweep. This may mean having to switch up the order of attacks to put it higher in the tree. The effect of this skill could also just be incorporated into current Mind Sear, with a new Passive talent added that adds in the proc for Mind Sear (with the order of the tree appropriately moved around).

 

- Add a can be used while Immobilized effect to Force Leap for Watchman. In PvP the spec has a laundry list of issues with mobility, it doesn't get two leaps like Focus, while it also doesn't get the passive movement speed of Combat. Combine the fact that it uses it's Leap rotationally and the sped needs something to move around more. A root ignore would do a lot to help remedy how the spec can feel like an easily controlled rag doll in PvP.

 

- Add a 6 second cooldown to Force Melt. Trying to apply this Dot to so many different targets (essentially doing tab Force Melt) is a great way to destroy your rotation and resource generation. So a short cooldown makes it so you can't spam the attack, while allowing you to use it often and when you need to switch targets or when a target dies. This should be done in conjunction with making Incisor root the target for 3 seconds, instead of slow for 6 or by just give a root to the attack by default.

 

- Nerf Innovative Ordinance, AP, and Lightning stDPS and the 3 ranged spam AOEs.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Ardarell_Solo]

Change List that imo needs to happen:

 

snip...

 

Although I don't like Watchman Vital Shot / Annihilation Corrosive Dart one bit, this is imo a very good design for the spec, if the new ability remains as a long dot. Especially the part about removing the ICD on the old Cauterize proc to make more room for fillers (as rightly pointed out was the case in most of 2.x) is a good idea.

 

In addition, as I said elsewhere, I'd like DST/TST proc to reset the ability's Cooldown, so it can be used with proc on single targets consistently, but is also available in its unprocced form for cleaving adds, for which it was originally designed, but doesn't get used for atm, because the procced version is too valuable in single target rotation.

[oofalong]

I am being selective and potentially going in a non-linear order here, but I did try to color code things based on subject:

 

...Make Force Rend an replacement for Annihilate, Deadly Saber or Rupture.

As far as I know, every time a lvl 57 ability replaces another ability it is an advanced class ability, not a discipline ability.

 

In my opinion Forcce rend is the main problem now. It doesn´t realy fit at all.

I tend to agree with this although I wasn't wild about any of your suggested changes to it. To start, I really like that Force Rend | Force Melt is a non-melee, directly applied, hard hitting DoT. I don't like its cost, the 3s between ticks nor its 18s duration.

 

If Force Melt is changed in the manner I suggested here

 

To be clear, are you just proposing eliminate the ability and give us a Vicious Slash | Slash replacement?

In addition, as I said elsewhere, I'd like DST/TST proc to reset the ability's Cooldown

This definitely makes sense. Also, I know others have mentioned it but does any one disagree with DST | TST spreading our DoTs? Assuming this were to happen the proc reset would be even more necessary.

 

Also, Oofalong I really don't think losing the idea that RNG on Cauterize causing problems with resource management is as big of a concern as you make it out to be.

 

If we take Rupture | Cauterize away entirely from our 36s rotation we do lose 2 of the 5 expected proc'ed resource. But...(cont'd below)

 

The problem is obviously the 4sec rate limit they introduced on our passive resource generation.

 

(cont'd)...my issue with the proc is that I personally feel we are more GCD constrained than resource constrained in 3.0. That is even with unlimited resource we couldn't adjust our rotation much from its current state.

 

One quarter of our attacks should be Annihilate | Merciless Slash. If we go back to a 6s DoT for Rupture | Cauterize, we would then hope to have another quarter of our attacks devoted to this ability. Thus, we are left trying to fit Force Rend | Force Melt, Ravage | Master Strike, DST | TST and Battering Assault | Zealous Strike in the remaining GCDs. It is already too difficult to fit a Vicious Slash | Slash in when we have resource to burn. Thus, given a proc and 6s DoT I think we'd have a worse quagmire than we do now.

 

- Nerf Innovative Ordinance, AP, and Lightning stDPS and the 3 ranged spam AOEs.

Definitely...

[Barnard]

Watchman/Annihilation is a sustained damage build. There is absolutely no reason to go back to using a proc to reset cauterize. I can't tell you how many times I would not get the proc before the natural cool down came back or I would seriously hamper my own build up of force. The spec should be fluid for sustaining DPS on a single target and not reliant up RNG/luck.

 

I would like to see a small cool down added to Cauterize and Force Melt. I typically play by watching character animations and the quickbars. Thanks to SWTOR's ever so wonderful ability delay bugs, I can't tell if Cauterize or Force Melt actually landed on the target without having to check the targets debuff bar as well. Having a 1-2 second cool down would help track application of both.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Barnard

[ishbindeinvater]

rupture should be an 6 sec dot, 15 sec CD

annihilate should add a 3 sec dot

we get something like vengeful smash as a lv 57 skill which hits really hard in a 8m radius and spreads dots

 

IMO the difference between marauder dots and other dot specs should be that we have short hard hitting dots, ,like a dot burst spec

 

2% healing on crits

 

suggestions: and/ors

rupture CD reset on annihilate hits

annihilate makes next rupture/vengeful smash free

...

...

 

cleanse on camo

UR no health loss or immunity+health loss

[SeanFM]

Please bare in mind that this is coming from a purely PvP point of view, and I am clueless about high-end PvE

 

I have a few issues with Watchman atm. Force Melt seems to have been designed around the idea that it should be free to use because you can fit 3 Merciless Slashes in between each use of it. This isn't at all practical in PvP. The majority of the time it costs 2-3 focus. In my opinion the spec is unplayable without taking Defiance. Perhaps this is intended but if you consider that Defensive forms is already pretty much mandatory then that only leaves us with 1 Skillful utility choice to make.

 

Then there's the fact that Force Melt is an 18 second long DOT. I would much rather the spec went back in the direction of having shorter dots like pre-3.0. Having a dot that ticks every 3 secs doesn't make much of an impact unless the fight is going to be a long one. I would much rather have a shorter dot that ticks faster. If I remember correctly Cauterise used to be a 6 sec DOT and now it's length has been doubled.

 

The length of the dots wouldn't be so terrible if they actually had some synergy with the spec. It's not like attacking a target with Force Melt on makes another ability hit harder or something. It seems like they've just added another DOT for the sake of it.

 

I have to say I like the idea of making Force Leap usable while rooted/snared. That would add a much needed counter to all the kiting that Watchman is so susceptible to atm.

 

I'm not necessarily in favour of our DOTs going back to having a cd though. Them not having a cd makes it much easier to switch targets in PvP when someone pops a cd that negates our DOTs such as Shroud, Evasion or Force Barrior.

 

Another suggestion I like is moving the DOT spread function from Force Sweep to Dual Saber Throw. Force sweep was never part of the "rotation" for Watchman pre-3.0 and the only reason I had it on my bar at all was for interrupting multiple people capping when I had already used DST. Then there's the fact that it's extremely ineffective at spreading the dots due to the fact that it's a melee ability with only a 5m range. If you compare that to the DOT spread of Hatred (a 30m ability with an 8m range) it's very lackluster.

 

Finally Watchman just seems to have lost it's flow. I know this isn't a very helpful thing to say as everyone knows it and it doesn't offer a solution but it's true none the less. Force Melt just seems completely out of place and very tacked on.

 

I know this isn't the clearest or most well-laid-out post, but hopefully there's at least a small bit of useful info that can be scavenged from it.

 

Edit: Oh and 2% healing should come back. I'm pretty sure this was removed from the spec when it was considered OP. This is far from the case now and I think it would be a small but beneficial boost to survivability.

Edited January 22, 2015 by SeanFM

[Delta_V]

As most of the posters in this thread already know, Watchman was always more of a hybrid dot spec (as opposed to a true dot spec like Balance). It played more like a direct-damage class that happened to apply dots as part of its rotation. It's shtick was always dots with durations less than or equal to their CD or the ICD of their proc. This resulted in a rotation that was less "spammy" than many burst specs (no Grav Round or Blade Rush spam) without making you stare at the target's debuff bar. All of that was lost with 3.0, and Watchman basically became a regular dot spec.

 

For my proposed changes, I would start by reverting Watchman back to its 2.10 form, and making changes from there. Some of these are based off of Emperor-Norton's on the last page.

 

Rotational Stuff (Again, all of these are changes from the 2.10 version of Watchman, not 3.0):

 

- Instead of pure RNG, make Mind Sear a stacking buff that resets the CD of Cauterize at 2 stacks. Merciless Slash, Slash, and Dispatch each grant one stack of Mind Sear, and Merciless Slash and Dispatch have a 75% chance, and Slash has a 45% chance to grant a second stack. This results in the same 75% chance to get the proc on your first use of Merciless Slash after the ICD ends, but if you fail, you are guaranteed to get it by using Slash. This keeps the dynamic of RNG, without letting it screw you over too badly.

 

- Return the 6s ICD on Cauterize. As Emperor-Norton pointed out, the ICD here keeps Slash from being used to proc it before Cauterize.

 

- 1.5s ICD on Plasma Brand (Focus gen from dots), no ICD on Burning Focus (Focus gen from crits on burning targets). The ICD on Plasma Brand is to keep resource generation from getting too easy if a third dot is added.

 

- Add Force Melt, but turn it into a more Watchman-like DOT (I.e. a CD longer than its duration). Make it hit hard, and tick for 6-9 seconds, with a 12, 15, or 18 second CD. Keep the 10-meter range, since that gives Watchman another tool to use outside of melee range. There is synergy between Cauterize and Merciless Slash, so maybe add some synergy between FM and Overload Saber. Make it refund Focus based on how many stacks of Overload Saber you have on the target, or something similar. Also, give it a better animation; the one we have now is... underwhelming.

 

- Between the addition of Force Melt, and the reduction in Master Strike's CD to 18s, Watchman would have too many fillers to squeeze them all in between Merciless Slash + Cauterize blocks. One solution would be a talent that increases the CD of Master Strike to 30s, but increases its damage. This would let Combat keep the shorter CD on Master Strike (which is necessary for using it in every other Precision window) w/out making it hit too hard in that spec.

 

- Instead of Burning Sweep, implement Burning Throw, which lets Twin Saber throw spread the dots instead. Using a non-rotational ability that only hits as hard as our basic attack is why Watchman ranks with Assault Commandos (who have to use two separate AOEs) as the worst at spreading their dots.

 

 

Miscellaneous Stuff:

 

- Let Force Leap be used while rooted. This is another of Emperor-Norton's suggestions, and it would go a ways towards solving Watchman's mobility issues, although there need to be some general Sentinel changes in the mobility and vulnerability to CC department.

 

- 2% healing on critical dots. This is a widely asked-for change, and would help with survivability in PVP, especially if Sentinels in general receive changes in this department.

 

edit: Also, keep the Accelerating Victory talent that lets us build Merciless stack two at a time. The shorter ramp-up is something we had been asking for for a very long time.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Delta_V

[Barnard]

There is no reason to have anything proc a reset on Cauterize. Just put it back on a timer where its short and used on cooldown. This would be beneficial to both PVE and PVP.

 

I'm all for having TST spread the dots instead of sweep. I also like the idea of making Force Melt more practical. It needs to be a shorter duration, harder hitting dot. Also, anything that reduces the total rotation time as 36 seconds is just ridiculous for a melee.

[TACeMossie]

- Instead of Burning Sweep, implement Burning Throw, which lets Twin Saber throw spread the dots instead. Using a non-rotational ability that only hits as hard as our basic attack is why Watchman ranks with Assault Commandos (who have to use two separate AOEs) as the worst at spreading their dots.

 

I'd like to try take this comment seriously, but I can't. Its just plain wrong.

 

Scoundrels have to use the most unwieldy attack ever in order to spread Vital Shot and their Shrap Bomb only sometimes actually AoEs like you want it.

 

Gunslingers have similar problems, though slightly more user-friendly, but only in Dirty Fighting spec (because shrap bomb is lame). Saboteur doesn't even have a way to AoE spread their DoTs and in the case of Shock Charge they can't even put it on multiple targets.

 

And the worst class in the game for AoE DoT spread? Vanguards.

 

Tactics doesn't have any DoT spreads (but thats fine, its not a DoT class)

Shield Tech has a DoT spread on High Impact Bolt, but thats a tank spec

and Plasmatech... Well the only way a Plasmatech Vanguard can DoT spread is by killing its current target, and it only spreads 1 of the DoTs to only 1 other target. Ionized Ignition isn't working for the AoE DoT application (different to DoT spread anyway) due to a bug, but even then that would be like saying that Atayru Form (combat spec) is a DoT. And Incendiary Missile doesn't even have any kind of DoT spread in Plasmatech.

 

Of course, this is nitpicking and vanguards are probably the best class for progression in the game (so long as you have a mando providing the ranged debuff + elemental debuff), but if you're gonna make statements, please don't be so horribly wrong. At least with Burning Sweep you can sort-of aim it to actually hit stuff you want.

[Delta_V]

I'd like to try take this comment seriously, but I can't. Its just plain wrong.

 

Scoundrels have to use the most unwieldy attack ever in order to spread Vital Shot and their Shrap Bomb only sometimes actually AoEs like you want it.

 

Gunslingers have similar problems, though slightly more user-friendly, but only in Dirty Fighting spec (because shrap bomb is lame). Saboteur doesn't even have a way to AoE spread their DoTs and in the case of Shock Charge they can't even put it on multiple targets.

 

And the worst class in the game for AoE DoT spread? Vanguards.

 

Tactics doesn't have any DoT spreads (but thats fine, its not a DoT class)

Shield Tech has a DoT spread on High Impact Bolt, but thats a tank spec

and Plasmatech... Well the only way a Plasmatech Vanguard can DoT spread is by killing its current target, and it only spreads 1 of the DoTs to only 1 other target. Ionized Ignition isn't working for the AoE DoT application (different to DoT spread anyway) due to a bug, but even then that would be like saying that Atayru Form (combat spec) is a DoT. And Incendiary Missile doesn't even have any kind of DoT spread in Plasmatech.

 

Of course, this is nitpicking and vanguards are probably the best class for progression in the game (so long as you have a mando providing the ranged debuff + elemental debuff), but if you're gonna make statements, please don't be so horribly wrong. At least with Burning Sweep you can sort-of aim it to actually hit stuff you want.

 

Sorry, completely derped and forgot about how bad Scoundrels had it. I was only referring to the dot specs that had the "using ability X spreads dots Y and Z to affected targets" mechanic. Some dot specs didn't get the mechanic because they already had solid AOE, such as Plasmatech Vanguards. The ones who got that mechanic are Watchman, Vigilance, Serenity, Balance, Assault Specialist, Ruffian, and Dirty Fighting. Of those, the only one I would say is worse than Watchman is Ruffian. Dirty Fighting at least uses a Discipline-specific ability, and the other abilities are either rotational (like Serenity) or powerful AOE abilities on their own (like Vigilance). Then there is Assault, which has to use two separate abilities for dot-spreading, but at least it's AOE abilities are powerful in their own right.

[Musevisa]

Not sure if this belongs here, but i'm giving it a go.

 

I havent played this class long enaugh and didn't play pre. 3.0, but coming from Hatred Assassin there are a few things i really miss.

 

We are supposed to be equal to Hatred assassins(pure DoT spec). My concerns are about uptime. Assassins(and probably other) can apply all DoT's from a distance and do a great deal of dmg. This is(with new Ops) somthing i really miss. Had a few times yesterday on Bulo that he stands in middle of Volley, and was practicaly out of range for almost 40 seconds. The only thing i had for him was DST and Force Rend, so somthing to apply all our DoT's from lets say 10m, not just Force Rend.

 

For me, the only way to make this spec play well as is, is to go for <9% alacrity. This takes away most of the stacato playstyle.

[Jedi_____Warrior]

Too start I think all sentinals need the offhand dmg buffed some.

Watchman

I think Oerload saber should be in the stance one less thing to keep klicking and useing recurses on

Forcemelt should hitt all targets around u instead of just one and stun or slow (share cd with forcesweep)

 

also fix the moving around some. like burns take down cd on force leap or something

[johanlofdahl]

Hey guys,

 

I see alot of attention giving the DOT-spread on the saber throw. Personly I don't mind keeping smash as the DOT-spread skill but they should make it more responsive and perhaps add some distance to it. This is assuming they will tone down more of the other AC's DOT-spreaders which I think is the best path. I know we are not in the best spot right now but I feel this is better for the game overall.

 

Mara's defensive cooldowns are focused alot on damage mitigation at the moment, it would be real sweet if annihilation could be the discipline with perhaps a bit less damage reduction but more health recovery.

[MorgenBlue]

I have to agree with Delta_V for the most part, his ideas are all quite good. Would it be crazy though to turn Force Melt / Rend into a replacement for Vicious Slash but increase the range to 10 meters? This gets past the issue of the DoT feeling a little forced and lets us keep our new 10m ability, PTs have lots of 15m ranged abilities so I don't think it would overpowered either.

[Ardarell_Solo]

To be clear, are you just proposing eliminate the ability and give us a Vicious Slash | Slash replacement?

 

 

No, I wouldn't like that. I suggested Force Melt to become a 10m force attack that deals direct damage instead of being a Dot (on say a 12s Cooldown). And I'd like it to be able to proc Cauterize the same way Slash did. So every time Force Melt comes off Cooldown you'd use it instead of a Slash slot in the old rotation.

 

And I think if we do it like that, this

 

One quarter of our attacks should be Annihilate | Merciless Slash. If we go back to a 6s DoT for Rupture | Cauterize, we would then hope to have another quarter of our attacks devoted to this ability. Thus, we are left trying to fit Force Rend | Force Melt, Ravage | Master Strike, DST | TST and Battering Assault | Zealous Strike in the remaining GCDs. It is already too difficult to fit a Vicious Slash | Slash in when we have resource to burn. Thus, given a proc and 6s DoT I think we'd have a worse quagmire than we do now.

 

 

is a bit less problematic. Though I still don't know about the shorter CD an Master Strike, it still messes things up a bit. Only thing I could imagine would be increasing passive resource generation so you don't have to use Leap as frequently as you had to...

[oofalong]

- Between the addition of Force Melt, and the reduction in Master Strike's CD to 18s, Watchman would have too many fillers to squeeze them all in between Merciless Slash + Cauterize blocks. One solution would be a talent that increases the CD of Master Strike to 30s, but increases its damage.

 

Many of the people who yearn for the 2.X version of this spec seem to ignore this fact. In addition, to the two abilities you mention, Battering Assault | Zealous Strike is now required at least every 30s given the new 2-piece Set Bonus. Previously, we may have had enough resource to skip it from time to time. Anyway, the point being we have too many abilities to use and not enough GCDs available given a 6s DoT for Rupture | Cauterize.

 

Yes, increasing the CD of Ravage | Master Strike would help, but do you (or anyone) really think this will be a tolerable change? To my knowledge, there isn't a skill in the game that extends a CD. I think we'd see 2x the complaints about this that we have seen about the 3.0 rotation.

[Emperor-Norton]

- Instead of pure RNG, make Mind Sear a stacking buff that resets the CD of Cauterize at 2 stacks. Merciless Slash, Slash, and Dispatch each grant one stack of Mind Sear, and Merciless Slash and Dispatch have a 75% chance, and Slash has a 45% chance to grant a second stack. This results in the same 75% chance to get the proc on your first use of Merciless Slash after the ICD ends, but if you fail, you are guaranteed to get it by using Slash. This keeps the dynamic of RNG, without letting it screw you over too badly.

The problem with most suggestions like this is that the current system already has a mechanic in place for having missed procs. That is Cauterize coming off of cooldown. Assuming you are playing right and immediately following Merciless with Cauterize when procced, if you fail to get it in the first window it_will_show up in the second either right behind Merciless by being procced or at the end of the window right before a third Merciless. So every mechanic of "next Merciless will proc if first fails" is kinda silly since this is pretty much already the case thanks to the cooldown of Cauterize.

 

Wrt adding Slash/Dispatch in: Honestly I feel every mechanic like still removes the feel of dynamic play since you always know that x thing_will_happen. That and it totally eliminates the decision of "should I gamble for a proc, or should I just build for Merciless and apply fillers", since you_know_you will get a proc if you use Slash. There is no case of does my focus pool and the relative cooldown on my attacks make it worth it to try, just okay do a Slash and I will get it. It will also create a really static rotation since everything will be done in either a 7.5 or 6 second Window. Always.

 

So while people may want to think of nice ways to "reduce the RNG", the fact is the best playstyle is the one that was in place before 2.8/2.10.

 

Sorry to single you out, many others have suggested things like this in the past, I just finally got around to getting on my soapbox about it.

[MorgenBlue]

Many of the people who yearn for the 2.X version of this spec seem to ignore this fact. In addition, to the two abilities you mention, Battering Assault | Zealous Strike is now required at least every 30s given the new 2-piece Set Bonus. Previously, we may have had enough resource to skip it from time to time. Anyway, the point being we have too many abilities to use and not enough GCDs available given a 6s DoT for Rupture | Cauterize.

 

Yes, increasing the CD of Ravage | Master Strike would help, but do you (or anyone) really think this will be a tolerable change? To my knowledge, there isn't a skill in the game that extends a CD. I think we'd see 2x the complaints about this that we have seen about the 3.0 rotation.

 

I don't think we have seen anything with a CD increase but we have seen negative effects in skills before. Madness for example has Lightning Barrage that makes Force Lightning do 25% less damage but channel 33% faster so it works out.

[Emperor-Norton]

No, I wouldn't like that. I suggested Force Melt to become a 10m force attack that deals direct damage instead of being a Dot (on say a 12s Cooldown). And I'd like it to be able to proc Cauterize the same way Slash did. So every time Force Melt comes off Cooldown you'd use it instead of a Slash slot in the old rotation.

 

And I think if we do it like that, this

 

 

 

 

is a bit less problematic. Though I still don't know about the shorter CD an Master Strike, it still messes things up a bit. Only thing I could imagine would be increasing passive resource generation so you don't have to use Leap as frequently as you had to...

For a tier 4 ability, I think that is just underwhelming tbh. I can certainly understand the idea for wanting to not have a Force Melt dot (honestly my reasons against it broil down entirely to it would be hard to do, not any liking of it), but I think an idea for it just needs more fleshing out. I still have an attachment for a 10m ability for the spec to use that is sort of a "opening attack" to use on an opponent (basically something offensively strong with some sort of control effect).

[Emperor-Norton]

Many of the people who yearn for the 2.X version of this spec seem to ignore this fact. In addition, to the two abilities you mention, Battering Assault | Zealous Strike is now required at least every 30s given the new 2-piece Set Bonus. Previously, we may have had enough resource to skip it from time to time. Anyway, the point being we have too many abilities to use and not enough GCDs available given a 6s DoT for Rupture | Cauterize.

 

Yes, increasing the CD of Ravage | Master Strike would help, but do you (or anyone) really think this will be a tolerable change? To my knowledge, there isn't a skill in the game that extends a CD. I think we'd see 2x the complaints about this that we have seen about the 3.0 rotation.

My opinion on the matter is too bad. The fact is this discipline needs a change back to when people enjoyed playing it. Every single Sent/Mara that knows how to play the Class I have talked to, PvP or PvE, has complained about how they destroyed the flow of Annihilation, and the majority have stopped playing the Class due to all the changes made in 3.0. At this point the Devs have had two attempts to try and redesign Anni without the RNG, one of which was a total overhaul. Both attempts failed and it just needs to be accepted that the way Anni should be, because it works and it is fun.

 

I see it one of two ways, we can have a Discipline no one wants to play because it is not fun at all. Or we can have a talent that increases an abilities cooldown. The decision doesn't seem that hard to me. (though you could make the base CD 30 seconds, and giving Guardians, Combat and, Focus passives for 18)

 

That does seem fatalistic, but that is just my opinion on the matter with no beating around the bush.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Emperor-Norton