Heat-Wave Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I don't really believe that. Then there is nothing further to discuss if you think I'm lying, now is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) I disagree. What Eric did was wrong, completely wrong and for all we know he is on a final warning in his employment for it. They certainly aren't about to discuss that with us. Nor would they discuss what may or may not have happened to the people involved in releasing it to begin with with such a lack of QC ... was it even on the PTS? They also aren't about to not fix an economy breaking item because of something the community manager said in a forum post. I think the biggest crime in all of it is that Eric hasn't posted some sort of retraction and apology for his previous statement and admitted to it being his stuff up in how he worded his statement and that he will be much more careful in the future and also as more attention is paid to QC in general by Bioware in lgiht of recent major issues. Heck had he originally said "Yes the machine is working as intended, it's not an exploit as some believe however we do have some concerns over the drop rates of the Jawa Scrap and Cartel Certificates ( or just drops as a whole ) so these are currently being reviewed and may very well change soon" then almost everyone's point on this issue would be moot. Just so we're clear, I'm not defending Eric, but you're way off base here. People posted the drop rates, people complained (mostly about the Jawa Junk drop rates), and exploiter-defenders started using the E-word about the slot machine. So BW needed to address the issue, and Eric is the person whose job it was. Eric's answer addressed the main concerns voiced at the time. Could he have done it better? I don't know. I don't know what Eric was actually told by the devs, so I don't know if he messed up or if they did. Based on how [obviously] wrong the initial drop rates were, and how hard the nerf was, I assume that he was told to give a generic "it's ok to use now, but we may change" answer, either because nobody who could give a proper assessment was there, or because they couldn't fix it before the next patch and didn't want another exploit scandal. But Eric is a community manager, and his posts weren't "statements to investors" or courtroom testimony, so pouring over his words as if they had such legal significance is pretty absurd. Nothing Eric said should have made people expect to get more than a few days use at the then-current drop rates, and everybody knows it. What happened is that people *wanted* the drop rates to be real, and they got a taste of the forbidden fruit, and now they will do anything to get more (or just quit playing, because Dr. Faustus, Mephistopholes). As to why Eric hasn't said anything, it's probably because he was told not to say anything more. If he wasn't told not to say anything more, I'm sure somebody would have told him to say *something* based on how much controversy this has caused. And him *orally* stating that BW had nothing more to say on the issue (at the Cantina), and not *posting* anything about it fits that analysis. Edited February 25, 2015 by eartharioch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Well, you would be the biggest example of failure of critical thinking. You have failed to present any solid data points backing your point, besides your personal angst. Cartel packs are lottery tickets just in the game. That is critical thinking. The failure you have is to realize that what you are arguing you bought for rl money is not related to what you did buy. F in critical thinking for Heat-wave your logic of "your money buys cc" so they can do what they want to you is wrong. can att sell you att points and have you use them to buy cell phone service, allowing them to change the contract at will? no, if they could they would be doing just that as a way to avoid liability. if it were that easy, a lot of lawyers would be unemployed and we cant have that now can we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Kaitou-Kid Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Well, you would be the biggest example of failure of critical thinking. You have failed to present any solid data points backing your point, besides your personal angst. Cartel packs are lottery tickets just in the game. That is critical thinking. The failure you have is to realize that what you are arguing you bought for rl money is not related to what you did buy. F in critical thinking for Heat-wave At the underlined portion: no, they're not. At all. Lottery tickets pay out with money and they have no guarantee of paying out anything. Cartel packs, on the other hand, pay out with in game items and they are guaranteed to pay out something it just may not be what you want. In addition to this, whoever's running the lottery can't just up and change your reward after you've won it. That money is yours and that's that. With Cartel packs Bioware can and did significantly change an item that was won in a cartel pack and essentially changed that reward. So, lottery ticket? Not a good example whatsoever. I don't agree that anybody should be getting a refund for Cartel packs bought, mind you, because that's a huge gray area. But comparing Cartel packs to a lottery ticket is just so off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 At the underlined portion: no, they're not. At all. Lottery tickets pay out with money and they have no guarantee of paying out anything. Cartel packs, on the other hand, pay out with in game items and they are guaranteed to pay out something it just may not be what you want. In addition to this, whoever's running the lottery can't just up and change your reward after you've won it. That money is yours and that's that. With Cartel packs Bioware can and did significantly change an item that was won in a cartel pack and essentially changed that reward. So, lottery ticket? Not a good example whatsoever. I don't agree that anybody should be getting a refund for Cartel packs bought, mind you, because that's a huge gray area. But comparing Cartel packs to a lottery ticket is just so off base. ^ Exactly... the prize was changed after it was won... I get that some people won't feel refunds are due, and that's fine... but to compare it to gambling or lottery tickets is just silly, if the slot machine hits the jackpot, you win the jackpot as posted at the time, they don't come to your house a week later and take 90% of it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegrijsen Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The irony is that you're right, the nerf has made me very wealthy in the game indeed, it has perhaps added a hundred million credits to my net worth. Had the machine not been nerfed, that would not have happened. You know what? I'd rather they took the hundred million back and gave everyone the drops back. Why? Because I continue to encounter players who are poorly geared and cheap purple mats would make it much easier to gear people up. Heck, I'd just be giving away 186 augments to guildies if the machine had been left alone. I'd rather have better geared players to have more people to play with than to be really wealthy in the game and have nothing left to spend the credits on. I used credits to buy "Improved mounting" for example, a lot of people don't have 2 million laying around to just click "oh sure, why not" on something like that, but when you have everything, you click it without being too concerned. I'd give it all back in a heartbeat to have the machine returned to how it was. Not for me, I have 22 alts, all of them in great gear... it would be for the average player who could use help getting into better gear... --- But you miss the point... What Bioware did was wrong... treating customers this way is not to be rewarded, and so I won't. Everyone will make up their own mind as to how to handle it, mine is to never spend anything on CC again, ever. Will Bioware care? Probably not... but it will remove perhaps a thousand dollars, give or take, over the next year or two from their sales. Do that enough times to enough people and it adds up. Many of the people posting about this have said that this issue by itself wasn't the real issue, it was more the "final straw". It was the last in a series of bad choices and poor decisions. The slot machine is a reflection of bad management and poor testings and a lack of care for the customer. That is the real problem. ..Sigh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 This thread is a reflection of inability to move on, but you don't see me starting/perpetuating a thread about THAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 ^ Exactly... the prize was changed after it was won... I get that some people won't feel refunds are due, and that's fine... but to compare it to gambling or lottery tickets is just silly, if the slot machine hits the jackpot, you win the jackpot as posted at the time, they don't come to your house a week later and take 90% of it away. Well, at least where I live, the lottery is run by the state, and as a matter of fact, "they" do take away part of the prize after you win it (taxes), and the state controls many of the factors that influence inflation (which devalues the prize). I'm not saying that the lottery is a good example, just that your reasoning is flawed. Not that that matters, since you're beyond reason. You said you made 100M credits off of this non-exploit, and you have nothing to spend your money on, but since BW fixed a bug, you can't give your guildies some augments? Last I checked, the GTN had plenty of mats and augments for sale, and 100M should cover quite a few guildies, but when you bought your CC, you weren't thinking of getting a one-week 100M piece of chump change, you wanted what, the whole bank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Well, at least where I live, the lottery is run by the state, and as a matter of fact, "they" do take away part of the prize after you win it (taxes), and the state controls many of the factors that influence inflation (which devalues the prize). I'm not saying that the lottery is a good example, just that your reasoning is flawed. Not that that matters, since you're beyond reason. You said you made 100M credits off of this non-exploit, and you have nothing to spend your money on, but since BW fixed a bug, you can't give your guildies some augments? Last I checked, the GTN had plenty of mats and augments for sale, and 100M should cover quite a few guildies, but when you bought your CC, you weren't thinking of getting a one-week 100M piece of chump change, you wanted what, the whole bank? He could also give every person who does not have the right gear 1million to get some. After all, it is not the money he wants. Edited February 25, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) What Bioware did was wrong... treating customers this way is not to be rewarded, and so I won't. Everyone will make up their own mind as to how to handle it, mine is to never spend anything on CC again, ever. ............. The slot machine is a reflection of bad management and poor testings and a lack of care for the customer. That is the real problem. Two very important parts that you've said I've highlighted above. I'm in complete agreement on both parts, the handling and the subsequent silence on the matter are not good indicators of professionalism. It isn't behaviour I feel I'm willing to support, which means any future potential CC sales from myself as a customer are lost on a permanent basis. Considering I've spent more on CC than on my sub over the years and I'm probably not the only one thinking along these lines, it only hurts BioWare financially by being reticent to respond or to post clarifying their decision on this issue. Edited February 25, 2015 by Transcendent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Then there is nothing further to discuss if you think I'm lying, now is there? That's where disagreeing with that poster always ends up -- eventually, if you keep posting that you disagree with him, you end up being "a troll" or "a liar". He's on my ignore list for a reason. Two very important parts that you've said I've highlighted above. I'm in complete agreement on both parts, the handling and the subsequent silence on the matter are not good indicators of professionalism. It isn't behaviour I feel I'm willing to support, which means any future potential CC sales from myself as a customer are lost on a permanent basis. Considering I've spent more on CC than on my sub over the years and I'm probably not the only one thinking along these lines, it only hurts BioWare financially by being reticent to respond or to post clarifying their decision on this issue. Every customer has a "being jerked around" limit -- some companies understand how to avoid crossing it, and some don't. Edited February 25, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papazmurf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Every customer has a "being jerked around" limit -- some companies understand how to avoid crossing it, and some don't. Unfortunately this is so true. What sucks is that the bigger companies don't care. This is a Star Wars based game MMO and they're aren't worrying about a competing product since EA owns the SW game developing rights. They're gambling that the IP will keep most people playing or more people coming to try it out than actually providing quality customer service. I just make the classic list of pros and cons. Yeah, this company has absolute crap customer service, but they are the only company that provides a product like this and I happen to really enjoy the product despite some of it's misgivings. EA/Bioware would have to do something really shady like child labor to get me to stop playing based on ethical grounds, sadly I don't even think that would deter a lot of players from playing and they know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Just so we're clear, I'm not defending Eric, but you're way off base here. People posted the drop rates, people complained (mostly about the Jawa Junk drop rates), and exploiter-defenders started using the E-word about the slot machine. So BW needed to address the issue, and Eric is the person whose job it was. Eric's answer addressed the main concerns voiced at the time. Could he have done it better? I don't know. I don't know what Eric was actually told by the devs, so I don't know if he messed up or if they did. Based on how [obviously] wrong the initial drop rates were, and how hard the nerf was, I assume that he was told to give a generic "it's ok to use now, but we may change" answer, either because nobody who could give a proper assessment was there, or because they couldn't fix it before the next patch and didn't want another exploit scandal. But Eric is a community manager, and his posts weren't "statements to investors" or courtroom testimony, so pouring over his words as if they had such legal significance is pretty absurd. Nothing Eric said should have made people expect to get more than a few days use at the then-current drop rates, and everybody knows it. What happened is that people *wanted* the drop rates to be real, and they got a taste of the forbidden fruit, and now they will do anything to get more (or just quit playing, because Dr. Faustus, Mephistopholes). As to why Eric hasn't said anything, it's probably because he was told not to say anything more. If he wasn't told not to say anything more, I'm sure somebody would have told him to say *something* based on how much controversy this has caused. And him *orally* stating that BW had nothing more to say on the issue (at the Cantina), and not *posting* anything about it fits that analysis. Actually I am perfectly "on base". I guess it's worth pointing out that anyone purely whinging/ranting that the drop rates changed and they don't get as much "stuffs" now isn't even worth paying attention to imo. Not everyone whinged or ranted and offered up some valid points and discussion as to why it should remain the same and that is fine because they're avoiding the "give us this broken slot machine back right now, I'm not rich enough!" Now based on that the only "valid" argument as I see it is with the whole communication issue. Nothing more and nothing less. Had Eric posted more concisely that they were concerned with ALL drop rates and they they were all to be reviewed you would find no one would have a leg to stand on in this regard and especially in regards to "refunds" etc. Not that I think they do anyway but anyone arguing the point over what Eric said had influenced their decision on whether or not to purchase this time ideally has a fairly valid argument to make. The 2 contentious points as I see it are: The Contraband Slot Machine is not bugged. With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun! People were quite right in assuming based on that that the cartel certificate rate and the other 2 Jawa scraps drop rate wouldn't drop and that alone would make it a worthwhile investment. I personally think it was wishful thinking that it wasn't going to get nerfed though that post had me shaking my head in that they were actually going to leave certs as they were after all the trouble I had gone to to get mine so even I fell for the miscommunication though for a different reason. Also I think you underscore Eric's importance here. Sure YOU might not think his words are not gospel and that's fair enough but many people do. They see the community manager making a statement on behalf of the game and assume that the communication he has received has come from above ( you even elude to this yourself ). The question is did he stuff up the communication? Did whoever gave him the communication to pass on stuff it up? In the end to many ( and myself ) it doesn't matter because it is his role to manage the community and it was his post that drove many of the community to the point that it is now - we don't care who behind the scenes told who what - we just care that the communication we receive is accurate and as informative as possible to avoid these mistakes and people taking things wrong. One thing we know for 100% fact is this issue has caused people to quit and stop buying packs etc. with real world money thus it has had a negative impact upon BW's income ( though most likely by a minimal amount ). Heck even after all of this there has still been no apology of any sort from Eric ( no one else should have to because from the community perspective he is the one who made the post ) over this miscommunication and that is what has annoyed people the most I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That's where disagreeing with that poster always ends up -- eventually, if you keep posting that you disagree with him, you end up being "a troll" or "a liar". He's on my ignore list for a reason. Because posts like that aren't trollish at all heh. There was a reason this player had been called a troll by far more numerous posters on numerous topics than just me and this sort of highlights it ( and by posting this I guess I am feeding him but apparently I'm on his ignore list so meh ). I guess this is the sort of behaviour one has to expect from a poster who has nothing valid to add to the debate itself yet needs the spotlight shined upon them a little bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Actually I am perfectly "on base". No, you aren't. You didn't address my points. Had Eric posted more concisely that they were concerned with ALL drop rates and they they were all to be reviewed you would find no one would have a leg to stand on in this regard and especially in regards to "refunds" etc. Just because Eric didn't say they were concerned with ALL drops doesn't mean that Eric didn't post "unconcisely". Arguably, his answer was *too* concise / specific. We don't know exactly what Eric brought up to whom, or what they told him, and we likely never will. More people were complaining about the jawa stuff than certs, and that's what Eric said he brought up. Saying they will look into Jawa Junk drop rates doesn't imply a promise not to look at other drop rates. Nobody has any leg to stand on about refunds, etc. The 2 contentious points as I see it are: People were quite right in assuming based on that that the cartel certificate rate and the other 2 Jawa scraps drop rate wouldn't drop and that alone would make it a worthwhile investment. No, they weren't. Saying they will look into Jawa Junk drop rates doesn't imply a promise not to look at other drop rates. Personally, since I only started buying packs recently and don't have a lot, so I was hoping they'd stay the same, but I didn't count on it. Also I think you underscore Eric's importance here. Sure YOU might not think his words are not gospel and that's fair enough but many people do. They see the community manager making a statement on behalf of the game and assume that the communication he has received has come from above ( you even elude to this yourself ). How is thinking that he only relays, not creates, information *underscoring* his importance? He's a PR guy. We will never get the truth from him. We will only get what he is told to say. If he didn't screw up but gets ordered to fall on his sword, that's what he'd do. He's done it plenty of times before. Heck even after all of this there has still been no apology of any sort from Eric ( no one else should have to because from the community perspective he is the one who made the post ) over this miscommunication and that is what has annoyed people the most I believe. Do you not understand that he doesn't have the ultimate authority to decide whether or not to comment? Yes, people have quit. I would have quit if the machine hadn't been nerfed. Instead, the person who was looking forward to seeing me leave left. People may have left over Ravagers, although I'd suspect more people have left because of how light the punishment was and not how harsh. BW has basically done nothing except screw pooches since SoR was released. People quitting will get BW's attention, not people crying for an apology for the slot machine because -- get this -- they have to pay to cry. People quitting will get Eric's bosses' attention, and they [should] have the information necessary to make an accurate decision of who to blame and what to do. Edited February 25, 2015 by eartharioch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Just because Eric didn't say they were concerned with ALL drops doesn't mean that Eric didn't post "unconcisely". Arguably, his answer was *too* concise / specific. We don't know exactly what Eric brought up to whom, or what they told him, and we likely never will. More people were complaining about the jawa stuff than certs, and that's what Eric said he brought up. Saying they will look into Jawa Junk drop rates doesn't imply a promise not to look at other drop rates. Nobody has any leg to stand on about refunds, etc. How was his post concise to the result we got? We had Green, Blue and Purple Jawa scraps nerfed as well as cartel certificates. If his posting were concise to the result we got then only the purple would have been nerfed. I agree and always has no one has had a leg to stand on for refunds but that was more for the fact it came from packs. Had it been a separate item one could purchase directly with CC then that would really be a whole different story. What I AM saying is people have a valid argument and reason to be aggrieved if they went and started purchasing packs solely based on his post in aim of getting a slot machine that may only have purple JJ nerfed. Anyone complaining about purple JJ nerf as a bait and switch or what have you are talking crap basically because THAT at least was referenced as being looked into ( and most likely going to get nerfed if one applied any common sense to the situation ). No, they weren't. Saying they will look into Jawa Junk drop rates doesn't imply a promise not to look at other drop rates. Personally, since I only started buying packs recently and don't have a lot, so I was hoping they'd stay the same, but I didn't count on it. Sure they were. In YOUR eyes they may not be but if they choose to take something said by the community manager as verbatim then that is their choice just as it is your to not do so. Yes they weren't promised other things wouldn't change however you are now implying they are completely wrong in forming their own personal assumptions based on Eric's post. It's not for you to dictate what assumptions someone should or should not make on a post that clearly doesn't mention the other items changing. You may have made an educated guess that other things would change ( as I myself did ) but I would argue that wasn't the clear assumption to make from the post, more so most logical based on the situation at hand. How is thinking that he only relays, not creates, information *underscoring* his importance? He's a PR guy. We will never get the truth from him. We will only get what he is told to say. If he didn't screw up but gets ordered to fall on his sword, that's what he'd do. He's done it plenty of times before. He posts on the forums with a title of community manager, players read this and rightfully assume what they read him posting is accurate and to be trusted. As I said, we do not know if he got it wrong or whoever passed him the information got it wrong but someone got it wrong and at the end of the day it's his name on the post. Not sure how things are over in the US but a manager title usually carries a fair amount of responsibility with it and thus from the situation created within the community it is on him to do his best to remedy it. Thus talk to whoever is needed to, post that the current changes are intended and staying as is and apologise for his previous post. I find it HIGHLY unlikely someone is telling him don't do the above and just do nothing at all because that is probably the worst possible action to take ( as illustrated by this thread and some actions players are taking ). Do you not understand that he doesn't have the ultimate authority to decide whether or not to comment? He doesn't? So he isn't really a manager per se but more so just a representative? I would like something substantial to back this point of view up because from how I read a lot of his previous posts ( on other issues ) he has gone hunting the information himself and then reported it back to us the best he can within the limits of "privacy" towards the company allow. As I see it he only doesn't post information when he's clearly told not to and even then he relays that back to us in the form of the likes of "that's all I can see now but more information is coming". Are you seriously trying to imply he's been told to not say anything what so ever on this issue since the nerf? I think they assumed the comments at the cantina tour were enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Well, at least where I live, the lottery is run by the state, and as a matter of fact, "they" do take away part of the prize after you win it (taxes), and the state controls many of the factors that influence inflation (which devalues the prize). I'm not saying that the lottery is a good example, just that your reasoning is flawed Oh. My. God. I wish I could say that I'm shocked, but I'm not. THE TAXES ARE KNOWN AT THE TIME YOU PURCHASED THE TICKET, THE RULES WERE NOT CHANGED AFTER YOU WON. Read that, read it again, perhaps have someone read it to you. It isn't hard, but I guess maybe it is, since I continue to see the same ignorant posts over and over on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 He could also give every person who does not have the right gear 1million to get some. After all, it is not the money he wants. I could of course give away gear, or sell it really cheaply... but I can't do that to enough people to move the needle... I've done it recently with guild members who are active, but even that amount is minor compared to the number who need help... No one person in this game is wealthy enough to move the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That's where disagreeing with that poster always ends up -- eventually, if you keep posting that you disagree with him, you end up being "a troll" or "a liar". He's on my ignore list for a reason. No, you didn't post that you disagree with me, you posted that you didn't believe me. Don't try and make it sound better than it is, you called me a liar, plain and simple. I said that I'd give it all back, all the stuff, all the mats, and all the credits, if Bioware would return the machine to the original state. Your reply was that you didn't really believe me. Hence, you think I'm lying about that. THIS IS NOT A DISAGREEMENT, THIS IS YOU CALLING ME DISHONEST. If you think I'm not telling the truth, there is no where else for the conversation to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyeth Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well, I would have NOT even attempted to get one of the slot machines had Eric not implied (and certainly gave me the impression) that it was more or less working as intended and wasn't an exploit. It was the first, and will be the last time I purchase a hypercrate because I no longer trust them. Apparently the QA team was fired or severely reduced as this should have been easily caught as not working properly. We should have been told up front that we were beta testing it. Let the buyer beware, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 No, you didn't post that you disagree with me, you posted that you didn't believe me. Don't try and make it sound better than it is, you called me a liar, plain and simple. I said that I'd give it all back, all the stuff, all the mats, and all the credits, if Bioware would return the machine to the original state. Your reply was that you didn't really believe me. Hence, you think I'm lying about that. THIS IS NOT A DISAGREEMENT, THIS IS YOU CALLING ME DISHONEST. If you think I'm not telling the truth, there is no where else for the conversation to go. I'll go ahead and assume you're talking to me there because otherwise it just makes no sense ... Anyway it seems I misquoted you in my repl, my apologies ... The irony is that you're right, the nerf has made me very wealthy in the game indeed, it has perhaps added a hundred million credits to my net worth. Had the machine not been nerfed, that would not have happened. Is what I should have quoted and THAT is what I don't believe and can kind of be seen in the context of the rest of my paragraph. Even at their lowest the Midlithe for example were 8K each and selling almost immediately. That's 792K per stack or 10 minutes works. Whilst those were so low though mytags, corusca's etc. were selling 15Kish each ( no idea what other crew skills were like ) so nerfed/un-unnerfed you still would have easily made what you have made so far if not more. The above there has nothing to do with believing whether or not you would give it all back, that I believe, I just don't believe that you wouldn't have 100 million credits to your worth had they not nerfed it, I believe you would have much more. That doesn't really have anything to do with honesty etc. just my belief your understanding of how wealth would have worked had the machine not been nerfed is incorrect or at the least differs from mine ( hence me being the one who does not believe it ). As for giving back your credits to get it back how it was ... by my logic you would make them all back and then some if that happened so that's kind of moot. However to back up your point to it being to benefit people getting geared then I presume you have no problem at all with something I've been open to before ... All Jawa items are BOP along with any material you use Jawa items to buy and any crafted items that use the bound materials. Thus nothing can be sold for credits, the economy doesn't take a huge dive ( it will still take a reasonable one ) and people can use it to get the gear you speak of. Likewise cartel cert drop rate stays as it is now because that has nothing to do with gearing and puts value back into the certs that those of us spent a long time ( and a lot more money/creds ) collecting via packs. This seems fair enough to me anyway, anything beyond that seems to be wanting nothing more than a money tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) No, you didn't post that you disagree with me, you posted that you didn't believe me. Don't try and make it sound better than it is, you called me a liar, plain and simple. I said that I'd give it all back, all the stuff, all the mats, and all the credits, if Bioware would return the machine to the original state. Your reply was that you didn't really believe me. Hence, you think I'm lying about that. THIS IS NOT A DISAGREEMENT, THIS IS YOU CALLING ME DISHONEST. If you think I'm not telling the truth, there is no where else for the conversation to go. Perhaps you need to check who said what to you -- I never said you were a liar. I said that disagreeing with the person who called you a liar is why he called you a liar -- if you don't give in to that person's opinion, they just end up slapping a label on you do they can pretend your disagreement is laughable and meaningless. There's a reason I have the person who called you a liar on my ignore list -- he couldn't shout me down, so I was supposedly "a troll" and "a cheater" because I disagreed with him on a different subject. I was trying to point out that you're wasting your effort if you think you can have anything resembling an actual discussion with him. Edited February 26, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Perhaps you need to check who said what to you -- I never said you were a liar. I said that disagreeing with the person who called you a liar is why he called you a liar -- if you don't give in to that person's opinion, they just end up slapping a label on you do they can pretend your disagreement is laughable and meaningless. There's a reason I have the person who called you a liar on my ignore list -- he couldn't shout be down, so I was supposed "a troll" and "a cheater" because I disagreed with him on a different subject. I was trying to point out that you're wasting your effort if you think you can have anything resembling an actual discussion with him. No you were called a troll, by me and others, because well ... your post history speaks for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I can only surmise that was a response to my post. Ignore List. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) I can only surmise that was a response to my post. Ignore List. *shrug* If you didn't care you wouldn't btoher replying to a post you can't read by someone on your ignore list unless ... Edited February 26, 2015 by MeNaCe-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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