The Contraband Slot Machine

[DarthTHC]

Well yes, obviously it depends on volume and the sector. But that's lightyears away from claiming that "most retail stores" in the real world have a 100-200% profit margin.

 

Again, you misread that portion of my post. The 100-200% isn't profit margin; it's mark-up. Profit margin is a portion of mark-up. Expenses like labor, facilities, etc., is another, far larger, portion of that mark-up.

[EnkiduNineEight]

I wonder how much intersection there is with people complaining about GTN Whales and supporters of 12X exp.

 

The prices the market had settled on were fair considering the amount of currency you can generate from doing normal game activities in the standard leveling up process. The market will bear only what people were willing to spend.

 

Now there are suddenly a lot of people who are unwilling to spend and consider the prices exorbitant and gouging *and they are high but scaled to utility and rate or return from normal play* so how many of them basically got their characters for free without any real effort by taking a fast lane to the prior level cap?

 

You complain that the prices are too high, but they are priced at such a level as was bearable by the market. meaning enough people were able to generate the currency to purchase the goods at the prices they settled on, so why aren't you able to muster this currency? Lest not forget as well that this is the normal pattern for any new tier of good release. Initial appearance = inflated prices but as time progresses demand drops and prices drop as well until they are more reasonably priced because crafters know that their market is based on convenience as _everyone_ is capable of making any of the basic crafted goods like augments, barrels, etc.

 

EA/BioWare purposefully made a game design decision when making crafting something that was done 'unattended'. You can continue to play the game AND craft concurrently. So there is no excuse for people who state they can't get something, as everyone can get it. Your complaint boils down to wanting it 'NOW!' and essentially 'FREE!'

 

And while you are making these complaints you are going to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a GTN Whale, a price gouging evil crafter, someone who is self involved and just wants to be rich off of other players hard work, or any other number of aspersions.

 

I don't sell crafted goods on the GTN unless I get a critical result and end up with more of an item than I needed.

I don't play speculation games on the gtn (well I admit that when I see someone post something for the 'basic' price an item suggests when clicked and the going price is many multiples of that, I'll buy and relist for the lowest price of the other sales.. because.. why not? but its not something I actively look for and its usually associated with e selling something I had myself))

I don't have nearly the money some people do, though I sit on a decent mound of currency owing to three years of active playing. I am certainly not poor nor am I the richest.

 

My aim is to promote a system that is equally fair/unfair to all players. So my opposition to slot machines in their current format is that they unbalance the game unfairly for those who have or have access to one. They obviate the prior method of gathering materials. It takes me far less time to sit at the bank of 4 I have set up in my stronghold and have one character click through several stacks of tokens than it does to log in and out of all my various characters and send them off on crew missions or do the 'travel dance' until I get the crew missions I need, and then have to wait several hours for them all to complete and MAYBE get the results I need. Nope, instead sit and right click a machine 20 minutes and I get ALL the materials I need AND I make a profit for the most part from doing so. So, less time, less effort, better and more reliable results, AND a profit even before I turn the crafting materials into anything.

 

That is a game breaking mechanic/addition. It exerts an undue pressure on the pricing of ALL crafted goods because the market pressure now indicates that if you _aren't_ making all your own stuff you're an idiot because the ease of obtaining everything needed is too great to not be a self sufficient crafter. So any goods sold on the market will have to be at a markup accepted for a 'convenience' purchase, EG everything must be priced at commodity levels so 1-3% margins, if that.

 

Crafting = broken

 

add to this, currency generation activites will remain a part of normal play so money supply increases but pricing for convenience items/crafted items has floored to commodity levels and money sinks have been removed, so the ONLY place to spend this money is going to be on items normally unobtainable or very hard to obtain. So their prices are going to inflate. Significantly, because the currency is there and available.

 

With most of these items being cartel items. The only way to exert downward pressure on their prices is to have more of them available. Only way to do this is to give EA/BioWare your real money.

 

This is not just about being able to horde money and gouge you. I do not engage in any of those activities.

 

For many opposed this is about looking at the health of the game systems and how this negatively affects them. We can't, 'Just let you play the game you want to play it' as it is not a single player game and the way you want to play it affects everyone else playing, whether you like it or not.

[wolfyde]

I'm not talking profit margins. I'm saying if your cost to acquire a widget - to buy it from your supplier - is $1, you're selling it for $2-$3. Out of that $1-$2 comes your operating expenses, which are considerable. Profit margin is decidedly less than that $2-$3.

 

Even pure acquisition cost versus retail price is in mere percentages, not multipliers.

[DarthTHC]

Even pure acquisition cost versus retail price is in mere percentages, not multipliers.

 

Interesting. Not in the retail establishments my wife's business sells to. Good for them, I guess?

[EnkiduNineEight]

Having worked in retail all my life, I have to shake my head in amusement. You have no idea about realistic profit margins in a retail store.

 

I think his numbers were quite on spot. Privately owned businesses will often run on lesser profit margins but also fail at a significantly higher rate because their models aren't sustainable especially when there exists competition in their markets by retailers that are significantly larger and can force prices lower.

 

in terms of 'mmo' play, I think expecting a 2-3 times markup of cost of goods is silly. You don't have any of the overhead expenses a real world business does. If you have to pay your companions a wage, and benefits, and at a level that incented them to remain your companions, maybe... but you don't. Your only real expenses are the cost of the materials and the expected cut from the GTN.

 

So, if your retail experiences are working for chains, then your knowledge of retail pricing is based on a different model and scale and also likely dealing with retail outlets whose primary goods are likely all commodity level. But even then, general rule of thumb is that your list prices for an item are going to need to be about three times that cost of the item to produce. You can make that up by having a variety of items whose margin scales based on item desirability and scarcity so that some items have a significantly high markup while others are sold at close to their production costs (or sometimes even at a loss... see cost of a printer vs the cost of the consumables used by the printer) but it should all average out to the cost of your materials you will be selling will be about 1/3 the cost everything needs to be listed at for you to make a reasonable profit and we're talking profit margins of maybe 3-6% in many markets. (Some are much smaller, Grocers margins are often @ 1%, sometimes its much higher, selling an 'experience' like 'fine dining' can allow you to increase your profit margins and the pricing is part of the experience, same with other luxury goods etc. A Lexus really doesn't cost that much more to produce than a Camry, but because you market it as upscale and provide a slightly different level of service, you can sell at higher margins because people are irrational.)

Edited January 18, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[eartharioch]

The only think I do know eartharioch is that if you express your disapproval lately than I am doing something right.

 

After all, you have expressed opposition to almost every positive change made recently to the game in one way or another....I'd say your opinion is a good barometer as to what should be done for the game....by doing exactly opposite what you advise.

 

I don't know what is going on with you lately but I hope you resolve it soon.

 

Fair enough. I will give you credit, at least you are consistent.

 

What's "going on with me" is that I think that most of the recent changes are negative, not positive. It's called "disagreement". Don't act like there's something "wrong" with me just because I don't agree with you.

 

As far as using me as a barometer, that's not necessarily a bad idea, but you should probably wait until it's time for me (and others) to renew our subscriptions and see how many people are still here after that before deciding what the readings you are seeing mean. And I'm not saying that in a flippant manner -- the only true way to determine if the changes we are discussing are actually good, bad, or indifferent to the game is to observe how many (and what kind of) players quit or start playing.

Edited January 18, 2015 by eartharioch

[wolfyde]

Interesting. Not in the retail establishments my wife's business sells to. Good for them, I guess?

 

I guess, I don't know what business your wife is in Come to think of it (anecdotal) I remember one occasion of a retailer making that kind of mark-up, whilst working a short stint at an authorized reseller of a certain computer brand with a fruity logo.

They bought Kingston Valueram, replaced the sticker with one of their own, tripled the price and sold it as "Certified Memory". Though I'm not sure if that was official company policy or just a crooked storemanager.

[Sawanee]

This thread is starting to sound like that econimics class in Easy Money with Rodney Dangerfeild...

"...then there's the long term costs like waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that outfit, but it ain't the Boy Scouts."

[wolfyde]

So, if your retail experiences are working for chains...

 

Worked for a couple of major chains, and a couple of family businesses. You're mentioning cost to produce vs final retail price though, in that case, yes, it might be true that it ends up with a 2-3 times multiplier.

But a retail store, the object of the original point, is the last stop at the end of a production line, and there is no production in said store. Between the initial cost to produce and the good in the store lie a number of buyers, auction houses, distributors, etc. (depends a bit on the sector) who all take their cut.

Between the actual acquisition of a good by the store and selling it on lies a mark-up that's significantly lower than the number that was claimed. That is what I meant, and by extension highlighting that a retail store can't really be compared to crafting and selling in a game where the producer and retailer are the same.

Edited January 18, 2015 by wolfyde

[EnkiduNineEight]

I guess, I don't know what business your wife is in Come to think of it (anecdotal) I remember one occasion of a retailer making that kind of mark-up, whilst working a short stint at an authorized reseller of a certain computer brand with a fruity logo.

They bought Kingston Valueram, replaced the sticker with one of their own, tripled the price and sold it as "Certified Memory". Though I'm not sure if that was official company policy or just a crooked storemanager.

 

Apple's profit margins are based purely off of what their consumers will bear. Apple has a cachet name and status symbol market. People buy apple because its popular and offers a product they want. So they achieve @20% profit margins currently.

 

You seem to be failing to understand that profit margins are not always a direct result of the pricing of a good in a percentage of its cost to acquire/produce.

 

There are considerable expenses a business has that are above and beyond the cost of the goods. You have taxes, you have cost of employees. you have your facilities, you have your own consumables used in doing your daily business, etc etc etc. Standard model is that the costs of your goods will be about 1/3 the cost you will sell them for.

 

This can vary based on how cheaply you can do the other things. Some stuff you can sell for significantly higher than cost (carbonated beverages anyone....?) but your aggregate is going to end up being about 1/3 your list prices.

 

Then, depending on the type of goods/service you are providing you can possible price higher or lower to increase/decrease your profit margins based on the market, what it will bear, and what forms of competition you have.

 

So yes, your fruity retailer was selling memory rebadged from another vendor at a significant markup. Other vendors don't have the market cachet your fruity retailer does and so have to sell the same product at a reduced markup. They still significantly mark up the price they charge for the product compared to the price they paid for it, they have to, because they have to pay your retail working but to be there to stock it, sell it, etc. Plus they have to pay the government some money because you can't be trusted to save for your own retirement (and arguably, in a capitalist system, the market pressures are such that the average person will not be given a wage that allows them to save for retirement) plus they have to pay for their facility, the taxes on the facility, they have to pay the taxes on the money they make, they have to pay for the equipment in the store you need to do your job, they need to pay for the TP people visiting your store and using your bathroom use, etc etc etc.

 

This is all very off topic, but just because you have worked retail doesn't really mean you have any understanding of pricing mechanics and the markets.

[wolfyde]

My aim is to promote a system that is equally fair/unfair to all players. So my opposition to slot machines in their current format is that they unbalance the game unfairly for those who have or have access to one.

 

This I can agree on, but that is a matter of the method of acquisition of the machine, being a RNG drop from a real money purchase.

[DarthTHC]

I think his numbers were quite on spot. Privately owned businesses will often run on lesser profit margins but also fail at a significantly higher rate because their models aren't sustainable especially when there exists competition in their markets by retailers that are significantly larger and can force prices lower.

 

in terms of 'mmo' play, I think expecting a 2-3 times markup of cost of goods is silly. You don't have any of the overhead expenses a real world business does. If you have to pay your companions a wage, and benefits, and at a level that incented them to remain your companions, maybe... but you don't. Your only real expenses are the cost of the materials and the expected cut from the GTN.

 

You also have the cost of leveling up your skills, reverse-engineering, etc. And there needs to be enough profit in each item to make it worthwhile for the crafter to even make the thing, else they won't.

 

You say 2-3 times mark-up in the game is silly. Consider Biochem consumables. Cost to produce one prototype (purple) medpac is about 1,000 credits. They are made in stacks of 6 though so let's say 6 for 6,000.

 

You're saying crafters should be happy doing all they do, raising their skills, reverse-engineering, running missions including the stupid travel dance, figuring out how much materials actually do cost, managing inventory, managing GTN sales, etc., to make 6,000 credits when they sell that stack for 12,765 (gtn fee of 6%)?

 

Me, I won't craft those any more.

 

But wait, as an added bonus, now that we're in the realm of ZERO cost of materials... 2-3 times ZERO is...

 

So we should just do all that crafting and posting and slot machine clicking and GTN management and inventory management etc. because it's fun? Watch GTN empty out.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[wolfyde]

You seem to be failing to understand that profit margins are not always a direct result of the pricing of a good in a percentage of its cost to acquire/produce.

This is all very off topic, but just because you have worked retail doesn't really mean you have any understanding of pricing mechanics and the markets.

 

I understand very well, thank you very much, having been in charge of acquisition, stocks, pricing and merchandising of a number of very succesful retail departments.

However, the main topic of the thread has maybe derailed a little too far, let's move back on track.

[DarthTHC]

So let's throw my suggestions for the fix out there.

 

First, the fix to the slot machines. The fix to the slot machines is to alter the drop table so that any time it would have given any scrap item, it instead fails.

 

The machine would still fulfill its obvious purpose of offering CM reputation and CM certificates. It would still be profitable for the players using it, as long as they can keep converting CM certificates to credits at 10k per (and I'm still selling them at 40-65k per on my server). It would still be a credit drain roughly equal to 175 credits per token purchased.

 

The second fix is to the supply problem for crafters. The fix to the supply problem for crafters is:

 

1) When loading the list of missions, load them all, not just a random 5. Alternatively, give us a Refresh button that refreshes the missions just at the level and for the skill we're currently displaying.

 

2) Increase the crit chance on Bountiful, Rich, and Wealthy missions to be at least 50% when using companions with 10k affection and +Crit, and at 500 skill. You can increase the cost of the missions to keep the cost of purple mats static. The issue isn't cost of mats, it's availability.

 

3) Reduce the duration of missions to roughly 8-15 minutes for Bountiful and Rich and 18-20 minutes for Wealthy.

 

If you make those 3 changes to mission-running, crafters will have all the supply of artifact level mats they could use and will therefore be more likely to post more items and undercut each other more aggressively, resulting in more items being available for purchase at a lower price.

 

As I've stated before, given the current mission cost to acquire materials, Augments could go as low as 40k profitably. Relics 80k. Implants 53k. Earpieces 52k. These seem to be below the price points most of the crafter-hating posters say they are now happy to see, so it would be a win for everyone.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[Halinalle]

2) Increase the crit chance on Bountiful, Rich, and Wealthy missions to be at least 50% when using companions with 10k affection and +Crit, and at 500 skill. You can increase the cost of the missions to keep the cost of purple mats static. The issue isn't cost of mats, it's availability.

 

So, basically

 

"L2P noob. Choose optimal crew skills or re-level optimal crew skills after reaching 500."

[wolfyde]

So let's throw my suggestions for the fix out there.

 

One change to the slot machine I wish for in any case, is to remove the monetary value of the reputation items and instead make them tradeable for something else, like Cartel Certs, so they keep being interesting even for people who are maxed out on rep, on the one hand, and maximizes the slot machine's efficiency as a credit sink on the other.

[DarthTHC]

So, basically

 

"L2P noob. Choose optimal crew skills or re-level optimal crew skills after reaching 500."

 

This was always the way to optimize crafting. But the optimization isn't much. +Crit is 1% or 2% depending on the companion. +Crit on 10k affection is another 5%, I think. So really I'm asking them to increase the base crit% for missions from about 15% to about 45%.

 

This actually de-values by about 66% the effort to get companions to 10k affection and optimize for +Crit. It makes doing that less of a compelling optimization, not more.

 

500 skill is the level required to run the Wealthy missions. It is also the point at which some of the missions become "easier" and therefore the crit base increases a bit. It has always been that way.

 

If you want to learn to play the crafting game, just go post to the Crew Skills forum. As long as the attitude conveyed in the message is one of a desire to learn (as opposed to the harsh gratingness you've displayed here), there will be no end to the people who will help you.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[DarthTHC]

One change to the slot machine I wish for in any case, is to remove the monetary value of the reputation items and instead make them tradeable for something else, like Cartel Certs, so they keep being interesting even for people who are maxed out on rep, on the one hand, and maximizes the slot machine's efficiency as a credit sink on the other.

 

I think even if you make those value-less, the value in the CM Certs still makes the Jawa Junk way too inexpensive as compared to missions, especially with the near certainty of the slots and wild RNG swings possible with missions.

 

Also, it keeps gameplay in the CM and that's just such a troubling thing for the community to accept. I'm not usually a fan of "Slippery Slope" arguments but BioWare has a demonstrated history of pushing the boundaries of CM so in this case, I think it's a fair point.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[wolfyde]

I think even if you make those value-less, the value in the CM Certs still makes the Jawa Junk way too inexpensive as compared to missions.

 

Also, it keeps gameplay in the CM and that's just such a troubling thing for the community to accept. I'm not usually a fan of "Slippery Slope" arguments but BioWare has a demonstrated history of pushing the boundaries of CM so in this case, I think it's a fair point.

 

Oh but I meant it entirely independently from the jawa junk being there or not, simply as a change to maximize it's function as a creditsink but keeping the reputation items appealing somehow for when after you're maxed out on the rep.

It would by extension also retain some of the value of rep items dropped from the Cartel Packs.

As it stands now, after you've maxed out a reputation, there's a distinct disappointment when you open the rest of your real-money-bought packs and you get a rep item.

Edited January 18, 2015 by wolfyde

[ScarletBlaze]

Honesty, the slot machine is something new for everyone and right now everyone is using it which is normal routine. The slot machine will become old and then for most people it will sit in their house unused as they will become bored with it and move on to something else.

 

I have used it once or twice on my crafters but then I don't stand there the whole time I am logged in. I have other things I want to do and I believe most people will do the same thing.

 

I see this as a non issue. I been able to make more relics etc that my friends and guild needed for their alts so for me it is not a problem.

[DarthTHC]

Oh but I meant it entirely independently from the jawa junk being there or not, simply as a change to maximize it's function as a creditsink but keeping the reputation items appealing somehow for when after you're maxed out on the rep.

 

Ah, I get it. Yeah, that.

[JattaGin]

Honesty, the slot machine is something new for everyone and right now everyone is using it which is normal routine. The slot machine will become old and then for most people it will sit in their house unused as they will become bored with it and move on to something else.

 

This seems very likely indeed. My guildies who visited me frequently during the last days in my stronghold already got bored and are back to OPsing.

 

There will surely be some no-lifers who keep on clicking like crazy in order to make credits, but most people - and yes, this is my personal prediction - will stop after they got all the decos or reputation items or mats for the stuff they wanted to craft but never could afford before. Once in a while, people will go back, mainly if they want to craft something new. Some people will make the slot machine their new ingame-profession. Others will find another way to get their credits.

 

I am absolutely sure that everything will be back to normal in a short while. And then people will find something else to complain about. It has been like that for more than 3 years. Toxic community is toxic. Why should it suddenly change.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

So let's throw my suggestions for the fix out there.

 

First, the fix to the slot machines. The fix to the slot machines is to alter the drop table so that any time it would have given any scrap item, it instead fails.

 

The machine would still fulfill its obvious purpose of offering CM reputation and CM certificates. It would still be profitable for the players using it, as long as they can keep converting CM certificates to credits at 10k per (and I'm still selling them at 40-65k per on my server). It would still be a credit drain roughly equal to 175 credits per token purchased.

 

The second fix is to the supply problem for crafters. The fix to the supply problem for crafters is:

 

1) When loading the list of missions, load them all, not just a random 5. Alternatively, give us a Refresh button that refreshes the missions just at the level and for the skill we're currently displaying.

 

2) Increase the crit chance on Bountiful, Rich, and Wealthy missions to be at least 50% when using companions with 10k affection and +Crit, and at 500 skill. You can increase the cost of the missions to keep the cost of purple mats static. The issue isn't cost of mats, it's availability.

 

3) Reduce the duration of missions to roughly 8-15 minutes for Bountiful and Rich and 18-20 minutes for Wealthy.

 

If you make those 3 changes to mission-running, crafters will have all the supply of artifact level mats they could use and will therefore be more likely to post more items and undercut each other more aggressively, resulting in more items being available for purchase at a lower price.

 

As I've stated before, given the current mission cost to acquire materials, Augments could go as low as 40k profitably. Relics 80k. Implants 53k. Earpieces 52k. These seem to be below the price points most of the crafter-hating posters say they are now happy to see, so it would be a win for everyone.

 

Yeah I see, make it so that no one can POSSIBLY get grade 11 mats, unless paying your oulandish prices, basically change the slot machine, so that it benefits YOU.....how noble of you....

[Wind_Chaser]

I'll just use this as an opportunity to get my mats cheaper and craft and sell crafted items on the GTN for high prices still and increase my profit margins. I won't be lowering my prices of crafted goods just because the materials are cheaper.

 

I encourage other crafters to do the same.

[ivanhedgehog]

Having worked in retail all my life, I have to shake my head in amusement. You have no idea about realistic profit margins in a retail store.

 

not to mention, do you pay rent in swtor?insurance? taxes? how much does dr lokin charge per hour? who pays to gas up your starship?