Pagy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 All items in game (other then perhaps gray vendor trash) will have unique ID numbers associated with them. So they could in fact comb the data warehouses and follow a mod from the point it was awarded within a piece of gear.... all the way to where it is today (including the trash bin). It's simply a question of how far they want to farm data and do they bother writing scripts to do it. Once they have paired a player action to an item ID number... there is no way to hide if they want to track you down. The larger issue is how far will they follow an item. Will they follow it through the GTN and to an end user who purchased it off the GTN? They could.. but they probably won't. This is not like real life theft where the police confiscate a stolen or ill-gained item from an innocent third party who bought it from an open sale.you seem to know more about how bioware traces items than their own CS team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil_evil_rozzie Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would like to see everyone who didn't exploit get a legacy title to show that they didn't exploit. Then we can see how many people didn't exploit. Not everybody' is going to display it though, so you can't really guess who did and who didn't from a legacy tital :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvenHardNiner Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 you seem to know more about how bioware traces items than their own CS team. Haven't you heard? Andryah knows everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggology Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 This is like being a loyal spouse for 40 years who has been secretly cheating the entire time. That makes you a long-time spouse, but certainly doesn't make you a loyal one. Or being a loyal CIA agent that has been selling secrets to other countries for 20 years. Length of service does not equal loyalty. Simply paying a subscription does not mean that all of your actions are in support of the game. Loyal players who are supporting the game would report the issue to have it fixed, not abuse an error for some perceived advantage. You make a good point, but that all includes outside parties. This is all inclusive. This is a 20 yr marriage that you find out your wife has been using Instant Mashed Potatoes rather than actual potatoes, and she's been taking credit for skinning, mashing, and cooking all that time. If this was selling the game for cash to others, or game-hacking code-files, or selling creds/levels for cash, I'd be on board with the banning, but we're talking about 'offenders' using the game as given to us, and then punishing them. Doesn't seem right. And as someone who runs a business, the best course of action is to disable the 'exploit' so it can't be used, and apologize for allowing it in the game in the first place. As for ill-gotten gains, let them keep them. Sure, that's not fair for the rest of us who DIDN'T use the exploit, but life isn't fair. In a month, nobody will care anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, in theory, if they tracked they illigitimately looted 2 chestpieces, they will know player received 2 armorings, 2 mods, and 2 enhancements from those two illegal chestpieces. Doesnt matter if they stripped them outvand moved them elewherebthey can go " Ok Bobthecheater got 2 armorings, 2 mods, and 2 enhancements, if he has 4 of each in his gear since he did 2 loots legitimately its rather safe to assume that 2 of each of them were exploit items and can be "removed" Kind of like if a parent knows little bobby had 10 marbles, then tommy says bobby stole 3 of his marbles. Bobby says he didnt steal them, but when mom counts bobbys marbles, lo and behold bobby somehow now has 13 marbles... Right now the exploiters seem to be hoping/banking on that either mom (BW) doesnt know how many marbles they had, and isnt counting them to make sure.you're assuming they kept the mods or enhancements...and if they downed any other hm bosses, the mods could be from those encounters. remember to complete a BiS setup we need specific mods and enhancements. some have crit, alacrity...stats people dont want. im just pointing out how much of a tangled web this is...and multiple this by the thousands of players they need to reprimand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) you seem to know more about how bioware traces items than their own CS team. I know quite a bit about modern data gathering and analytics. All modern businesses use them. CS..... CS is dependent on the data you give them to create a "traceable marker" on a ticket. They also rely on the data being in the data warehouse. I get it.. you hate when CS is unable to verify a claim in a ticket.. and won't act. They are simply following their work flows, and using information provided by the player to run a query to see if they can verify your claims. Good data in, good data out. Garbage in, garbage out. I know a good number of people that have had instance bugs and were able to submit an lucid and accurate ticket and obtain remedy without incident. I also know some who were unsuccessful too. Like all games with a million+ active players.... results will vary. Edited January 14, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 ...maybe even resisted using this one until it went undealt with for so long by Bioware, and so finally relented... But then again this is the same company that can't seem to figure out that Jedis want Jedi-like robes, or that Bounty Hunters want armor with functional jetpacks. This is what happened on our server. Due to BW's policy to not speak on exploits, we had no clue if they knew or would do anything about the exploits. Weeks passed without a fix and the exploit was in fleet general chat during peak times. Still nothing from the devs. Moral of the story: If you don't take action or address it in a reasonable time, then you are actually encouraging more exploiting. The message starts to send is "nah, we don't care that much about it to say or do anything." Second part of the quote is just funny, and it's good to laugh and remember that this is just a video game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drockter Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would like to see everyone who didn't exploit get a legacy title to show that they didn't exploit. Then we can see how many people didn't exploit. No thanks... i think this would turn into full scale harrassment of players who may have exploited to a small extent, but didn't end up with a ban... I didn't use the exploit... and I really don't want to know who did... the gear received by the exploiters should be taken, credits seized, schematics destroyed... the most egregious should receive some stiff punishment to discourage future exploiters... but lets not set individuals up for redicule/mockery/harassment in game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I know quite a bit about modern data gathering and analytics. All modern businesses use them. CS..... CS is dependent on the data you give them to create a "traceable marker" on a ticket. They also rely on the data being in the data warehouse. I get it.. you hate when CS is unable to verify a claim in a ticket.. and won't act. They are simply following their work flows, and using information provided by the player to run a query to see if they can verify your claims. Good data in, good data out. Garbage in, garbage out. I know a good number of people that have had instance bugs and were able to submit an lucid and accurate ticket and obtain remedy without incident. I also know some who were unsuccessful too. Like all games with a million+ active players.... results will vary.no im very impressed, i mean to know how this particular game's backend works its very impressive. especially the details you have on what their admin tools, what they can see and what CS agents can or cannot do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 You make a good point, but that all includes outside parties. This is all inclusive. This is a 20 yr marriage that you find out your wife has been using Instant Mashed Potatoes rather than actual potatoes, and she's been taking credit for skinning, mashing, and cooking all that time. If this was selling the game for cash to others, or game-hacking code-files, or selling creds/levels for cash, I'd be on board with the banning, but we're talking about 'offenders' using the game as given to us, and then punishing them. Doesn't seem right. And as someone who runs a business, the best course of action is to disable the 'exploit' so it can't be used, and apologize for allowing it in the game in the first place. As for ill-gotten gains, let them keep them. Sure, that's not fair for the rest of us who DIDN'T use the exploit, but life isn't fair. In a month, nobody will care anyway. This would set a terrible precedent for the future. Both your and my examples are not really fitting of what actually happened, but exploits in online multiplayer games can have large repurcussions. The issue isn't so much that this particular situation is game breaking, but if you let it pass then why would anyone ever ignore a future exploit? I agree that BW should have caught this much sooner and disabled the entire instance if need be until it was resolved, but that doesn't give a free pass to anyone using it. Not doing anything to these players will not only encourage them to continue to use exploits when they are found in the future, but to go out of their way to find the exploits that may actually lower the enjoyment of the entire player base. If you think anyone will stop complaining about BW doing nothing in a month, you haven't been around long enough. Even now, people complain about things that happened at launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigredo Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 wow, this has morphed into yet another silly and pointless display of ignorance, overinflated self worth and false equivalency. you people are mind numbingly and entirely to butt hurt over something so trivial and ultimately pointless it is a wonder you have survived this long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 no im very impressed, i mean to know how this particular game's backend works its very impressive. especially the details you have on what their admin tools, what they can see and what CS agents can or cannot do. Nice to see the forums will never stop trying to go down the "Andryah works for Bioware" rabbit hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Let's say 1 guy exploited and gained 1 or more Matter Transubstantiators. BioWare tracks it and removes it from him. Same player sells it to another player, for 1.5 million credits, BioWare removes it from the other player and returns his credits? What if the buyer was a crafter who consumed it and sold the final product to yet a 3rd player? Then what? Then there's those who transferred characters just to sell their HM lockout. BioWare can't possibly get into all that and be fair. They don't have the manpower or competency. By the way, using lockouts to just complete the weekly Ops is an exploit. I could join one of those groups and just stand there or /stuck and collect loot most of the time. It's an exploit because you didn't kill the bosses leading up to it. What's BioWares plans to punish all the exploiters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) im just pointing out how much of a tangled web this is...and multiple this by the thousands of players they need to reprimand. But but but... ... On the plus side, most players didn't partake in the exploit at all allowing us to focus on the few who did. ... Clearly you are 100% wrong. You also MUST be a exploiter yourself! I can't wait til they ban you, force you off the internet, and make you put a sign on your front door telling the world you're a bad person. "They can't afford to ban so many" Myth Debunked Clearly you are 100% wrong! Also, you must be an exploiter! I DEMAND you be banned, forced off the internet, and have a sign put on your front door telling the world you are a bad person! Edited January 14, 2015 by Frybert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 This would set a terrible precedent for the future. Both your and my examples are not really fitting of what actually happened, but exploits in online multiplayer games can have large repurcussions. The issue isn't so much that this particular situation is game breaking, but if you let it pass then why would anyone ever ignore a future exploit? I agree that BW should have caught this much sooner and disabled the entire instance if need be until it was resolved, but that doesn't give a free pass to anyone using it. Not doing anything to these players will not only encourage them to continue to use exploits when they are found in the future, but to go out of their way to find the exploits that may actually lower the enjoyment of the entire player base. If you think anyone will stop complaining about BW doing nothing in a month, you haven't been around long enough. Even now, people complain about things that happened at launch.the precedents bw has set with all previous exploits is exactly why we are in this position. so now they need to choose between continuing with a pattern on inaction or put their foot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Loyal players do not tear their game apart by deliberately using exploits. "tear the game apart" ? Isn't that complete hyperbole? The harms people have identified as flowing from the Ravagers exploit are hardly game breaking. It seems to me that, regardless of how much forum heat each generated, the bugs in the new Ops have done more to ruin most people's SWTOR experience than the Ravagers exploit did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 "tear the game apart" ? Isn't that complete hyperbole? The harms people have identified as flowing from the Ravagers exploit are hardly game breaking. It seems to me that, regardless of how much forum heat each generated, the bugs in the new Ops have done more to ruin most people's SWTOR experience than the Ravagers exploit did. It provided unlimited amounts of gear, and materials that take legit raiders to get along time, and you say its not game breaking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 no im very impressed, i mean to know how this particular game's backend works its very impressive. especially the details you have on what their admin tools, what they can see and what CS agents can or cannot do. Having managed large internet applications, complete with CS support channels, I can assure you this is not rocket science. There are only a handful of suppliers for data warehouse applications and analytics packages that go with them. They are all pretty much the same, to be honest. It's more about how you configure them, and what reporting systems you construct and wire to whatever dashboards are required in your business. As for CS teams... well... CS is all about the work flows you produce for them to follow + the human talent that uses said work flows. The largest factors impacting the ability of CS to produce a positive outcome are the workflows and do they follow them. Which is why resubmitting a closed ticket sometimes results in positive results the second time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 the precedents bw has set with all previous exploits is exactly why we are in this position. so now they need to choose between continuing with a pattern on inaction or put their foot down. Yes and no. They have let things slide, but not everything. See posts from around May 2013 on Collections exploits with accounts being actioned, some of which were done incorrectly and reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Yes and no. They have let things slide, but not everything. See posts from around May 2013 on Collections exploits with accounts being actioned, some of which were done incorrectly and reversed. Yep. People love to conveniently forget that episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Nice to see the forums will never stop trying to go down the "Andryah works for Bioware" rabbit hole.this has less to do with being a serial bw apologist knight and knowing exactly what tools and information bw employees have access to. or at least pretending you do roflmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) this has less to do with being a serial bw apologist knight and knowing exactly what tools and information bw employees have access to. or at least pretending you do roflmao It is pretty clear from simple observation of their public comments that they have deep and broad data gathering and the analytics to go with it. As to what exact vendors they chose, and how they have their reports configured and in use... anyone's guess really. There are not that many to choose from and it really does not matter anyway. It's absurd to dig in heels in the fact of clear evidence of their data abilities and insist they cannot trace any piece of data if they choose to. Edited January 14, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 It provided unlimited amounts of gear, and materials ... No, the Ravagers exploit didn't provide unlimited amounts of anything -- except fuel for the forum fires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Having managed large internet applications, complete with CS support channels, I can assure you this is not rocket science. There are only a handful of suppliers for data warehouse applications and analytics packages that go with them. They are all pretty much the same, to be honest. It's more about how you configure them, and what reporting systems you construct and wire to whatever dashboards are required in your business. were any of these large internet applications SWTOR or built on the same game engine? because i've never heard anything so hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandi Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 no im very impressed, i mean to know how this particular game's backend works its very impressive. especially the details you have on what their admin tools, what they can see and what CS agents can or cannot do. Hardly. It's pretty obvious the kind of tools they *need* to have to manage a game such as this. I guess some people just can't make the logical conclusions needed to understand... well anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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