regarding punishment for exploit

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I don't think people will tolerate any form of ban as subscribers. If it was me, I would simply cancel even if the ban was for 5 minutes.

 

I am in agreement with Max anyway.

 

If it could be proven that some guilds transferred servers etc and took money off people to take them to their bugged instance, then the perpetrators should en masse be banned, but other than that, no, seems pointless.

 

The loss of subscription and subsequent CC purchases etc by banning those guild people will be bad enough, they really cannot afford to have potentially thousands across all servers cancel their subs all at once, even if it does leave our modern day Mary Whitehouse types happy and content.

[LordArtemis]

I think it will likely come down as follows, listed from most likely to least likely.....

 

1) Correction of the exploit and warnings issued.

2) Removal of items and credits from the economy generated by the exploit.

3) Temporary sanctions against players that participated in the exploit directly.

4) Permanent bans for the most egregious offenders.

 

I remain confident that at least the first option will be implemented. The second is a good possibility, the third and fourth less likely IMO.

 

But not because of most of the reasons given in this thread...It may simply be a matter of Bioware deciding that their inaction does not warrant draconian punishments. I can say that anyone that participates in the exploit AFTER it was publicly announced have a very good chance of facing some kind of sanction.

[ivanhedgehog]

I keep seeing this example.

 

Go read the tag on your own mattress...

 

I have a water bed lol

[Max_Killjoy]

I have a water bed lol

 

Careful cutting the tag off, then.

[Jandi]

do you think they have the manpower to go through all of those logs? line by line? not a chance.

 

LOL

 

You know, they can put a flag on certain conditions, then press a magic button, then every instance of certain conditions happening will pop up.

 

Just like you can copy/paste an entire book on word, flag a word or sentence, press a button, and every instance of said word or sentence will lit up.

 

It's basic indexing, not magic. The biggest work is getting the condition filter just right to avoid unjust flags, but that only takes time, not manpower.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Jandi

[masstershake]

I think it will likely come down as follows, listed from most likely to least likely.....

 

1) Correction of the exploit and warnings issued.

2) Removal of items and credits from the economy generated by the exploit.

3) Temporary sanctions against players that participated in the exploit directly.

4) Permanent bans for the most egregious offenders.

 

I remain confident that at least the first option will be implemented. The second is a good possibility, the third and fourth less likely IMO.

 

But not because of most of the reasons given in this thread...It may simply be a matter of Bioware deciding that their inaction does not warrant draconian punishments. I can say that anyone that participates in the exploit AFTER it was publicly announced have a very good chance of facing some kind of sanction.

 

 

This × 100

 

My thoughts exactly

[Sashandra]

Even if it is 5000 that is 1%.

 

That is nothing for EA, this game is only one of many so it is still less than 1% total revenue.

 

They would be fools to get a reputation for not enforcing the rules, which would cause players to start all kinds of crap, over such a measly amount of money.

 

If the money matters they can fire the engineer to offset the cost.

 

5000 I am betting is way under the actual numbers. After server reset, on harbinger, there was between 70-90 open instances for the first 1.5 hours. At that point my group left ravagers, too much lag from all the instances. But figure 5 minutes total for someone to exploit, average 80 instances, that is a total of 1,440 characters that went in in that time. Even if you figure on average everyone ran the instance on multiple characters (say an average of 2 per person since not everyone is a speed leveler), that's 720 unique accounts in 1.5 hours. Not only that, but that was at a time outside of US prime time so the hours later the pace would of picked up.

 

That is for 1.5 hours on one server on imperial side, in one week, never mind the pub side and all the other servers. just putting out observations and some number estimates for people to think about before saying its on 1%, 500 people, or other such off the wall numbers.

 

Also, don't forget, Bioware stated that this has become far more prevalent and widespread than any other bug exploit before it.

[lokimogor]

5000 I am betting is way under the actual numbers. After server reset, on harbinger, there was between 70-90 open instances for the first 1.5 hours. At that point my group left ravagers, too much lag from all the instances. But figure 5 minutes total for someone to exploit, average 80 instances, that is a total of 1,440 characters that went in in that time. Even if you figure on average everyone ran the instance on multiple characters (say an average of 2 per person since not everyone is a speed leveler), that's 720 unique accounts in 1.5 hours. Not only that, but that was at a time outside of US prime time so the hours later the pace would of picked up.

 

That is for 1.5 hours on one server on imperial side, in one week, never mind the pub side and all the other servers. just putting out observations and some number estimates for people to think about before saying its on 1%, 500 people, or other such off the wall numbers.

 

Also, don't forget, Bioware stated that this has become far more prevalent and widespread than any other bug exploit before it.

 

Nicely done actual math has been brought in.

[Sashandra]

Nicely done actual math has been brought in.

 

uh oh, I did math near the pitchfork and torch mob, better run before they go "exploiter!" and start to build a bonfire

some quotes that seem apt to all the rage, nastiness and people calling for mass action in this thread;

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for its welfare." ~Edmund Burke

"Those that are the loudest in their threats are the weakest in their actions." ~Charles Caleb Colton

"The loudest voices we hear are those who advocate conflict, divisiveness." ~John C. Danforth

"Those who speak the loudest often have nothing to say..." ~John Reyes

[Kryand]

LOL

 

You know, they can put a flag on certain conditions, then press a magic button, then every instance of certain conditions happening will pop up.

 

Just like you can copy/paste an entire book on word, flag a word or sentence, press a button, and every instance of said word or sentence will lit up.

 

It's basic indexing, not magic. The biggest work is getting the condition filter just right to avoid unjust flags, but that only takes time, not manpower.

 

Pretty much. Narrowing down the player base to a list of people who exploited with 100% certainty is utterly trivial, assuming they have the ability to search their player database based on player inventory, have records of every time loot was picked up in that instance, or 1-2 of tons of other parameters. There is a 0% chance that someone innocent would be caught, and only a very negligible chance that someone guilty would be left out. They could even distinguish one-time users from major users pretty easily. Granted, I'm thinking about this as someone who's worked with various databases for over a decade - in some cases doing exactly this - but I'm pretty confident even a novice could figure out how to write a script that parses through their logs and player inventories.

 

Point being, if their logging ability is even remotely worth its salt, finding the exploiters is a non-issue. So don't think you're safe just because "it would be too much work to find us all".

 

That said, there are tons of other reasons that you should feel safe, and plenty more that you shouldn't even care one way or the other, because the bottom line is this game needs you more than you need it.

[Pagy]

10,000s? 10,000s of players are not even running the Op, let alone using the exploit.

what does one have to do with the other?

[Frybert]

5000 I am betting is way under the actual numbers. After server reset, on harbinger, there was between 70-90 open instances for the first 1.5 hours. At that point my group left ravagers, too much lag from all the instances. But figure 5 minutes total for someone to exploit, average 80 instances, that is a total of 1,440 characters that went in in that time. Even if you figure on average everyone ran the instance on multiple characters (say an average of 2 per person since not everyone is a speed leveler), that's 720 unique accounts in 1.5 hours. Not only that, but that was at a time outside of US prime time so the hours later the pace would of picked up.

 

That is for 1.5 hours on one server on imperial side, in one week, never mind the pub side and all the other servers. just putting out observations and some number estimates for people to think about before saying its on 1%, 500 people, or other such off the wall numbers.

 

Also, don't forget, Bioware stated that this has become far more prevalent and widespread than any other bug exploit before it.

 

A little bit more math here, and this math is much more important to BW than just about anything else. If we indeed go along with your numbers:

 

720 x $15 per month = $10,800 per month in lost revenue. Now I can already hear some claiming "Oh thats nothing, they make blah blah blah blah". Companies exist to make money. As much as they can. A guaranteed loss of $10,800 per month is NOT going to happen.

[Kirazy]

You overestimate your value to the game.

 

Assuming there are currently ~500k subscribers, if Bioware were to permanently ban the top 500 exploiters, they would potentially eat a "loss" of 1/10th of 1%.

 

Exploiters need to be dealt with severely to prevent this from happening again in the future.

 

So many people here who do not think through the logical consequence of actions, nor the probabilities of future occurances. People are going to exploit. Ban waves in the past are not going to discourage exploiting. The solution to exploits is to as immediately as possible either fix it, or if that is not practical due to the nature of the exploit, in as much as it is possible cut off access to it.

 

Bioware did neither of these things.

 

Whatever they do to those who exploited is their business, but it's naive to think that even the harshest of punishments will have any sort of effect on future exploits. This exploit is widespread because it was ignored (and because it is incredibly accessible/easy/fast). It's growing, because they're not doing anything about it. They're waiting until schedule maintenance to fix it. They're entirely sedate about the whole thing.

 

The only way to minimize the impact of exploits is to respond immediately. Bioware is deliberately not doing this. Punishments are after-the-fact events. Don't matter much.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Kirazy

[Jandi]

 

Point being, if their logging ability is even remotely worth its salt, finding the exploiters is a non-issue. So don't think you're safe just because "it would be too much work to find us all".

 

That said, there are tons of other reasons that you should feel safe, and plenty more that you shouldn't even care one way or the other, because the bottom line is this game needs you more than you need it.

 

Considering how often they cite their metrics, it's rather obvious that they do in fact have advanced database logging.

[EvenHardNiner]

So many people here who do not think through the logical consequence of actions, nor the probabilities of future occurances. People are going to exploit. Ban waves in the past are not going to discourage exploiting. The solution to exploits is to as immediately as possible either fix it, or if that is not practical due to the nature of the exploit, in as much as it is possible cut off access to it.

 

Bioware did neither of these things.

 

Whatever they do to those who exploited is their business, but it's naive to think that even the harshest of punishments will have any sort of effect on future exploits. This exploit is widespread because it was ignored. It's growing, because they're not doing anything about it. They're waiting until schedule maintenance to fix it. They're entirely sedate about the whole thing.

 

The only way to minimize the impact of exploits is to respond immediately. Bioware is deliberately not doing this. Punishments are after-the-fact events. Don't matter much.

 

Couldn't be said any better.

 

People are always going to exploit. If Bioware acted quicker and banned these exploiters quicker, it would stop people from thinking about exploiting in future. But Bioware have taken their time with this.

[Theeko]

So many people here who do not think through the logical consequence of actions, nor the probabilities of future occurances. People are going to exploit. Ban waves in the past are not going to discourage exploiting. The solution to exploits is to as immediately as possible either fix it, or if that is not practical due to the nature of the exploit, in as much as it is possible cut off access to it.

 

Bioware did neither of these things.

 

Whatever they do to those who exploited is their business, but it's naive to think that even the harshest of punishments will have any sort of effect on future exploits. This exploit is widespread because it was ignored (and because it is incredibly accessible/easy/fast). It's growing, because they're not doing anything about it. They're waiting until schedule maintenance to fix it. They're entirely sedate about the whole thing.

 

The only way to minimize the impact of exploits is to respond immediately. Bioware is deliberately not doing this. Punishments are after-the-fact events. Don't matter much.

 

They waited to fix ESO's massive market exploit and look where that's gotten them

[Pagy]

I think it will likely come down as follows, listed from most likely to least likely.....

 

1) Correction of the exploit and warnings issued.

2) Removal of items and credits from the economy generated by the exploit.

3) Temporary sanctions against players that participated in the exploit directly.

4) Permanent bans for the most egregious offenders.

 

I remain confident that at least the first option will be implemented. The second is a good possibility, the third and fourth less likely IMO.

 

But not because of most of the reasons given in this thread...It may simply be a matter of Bioware deciding that their inaction does not warrant draconian punishments. I can say that anyone that participates in the exploit AFTER it was publicly announced have a very good chance of facing some kind of sanction.

i think #2 is impossible.

 

if i lose all of my 192 barrels/hilts next week i'll unsub.

i predict they send a warning to some and ban *some* accounts for exceptional exploiting (ie changing servers, charging for exploit in gen chat, accounts that performed the exploit an excessive amount etc)

[Pagy]

LOL

 

You know, they can put a flag on certain conditions, then press a magic button, then every instance of certain conditions happening will pop up.

 

Just like you can copy/paste an entire book on word, flag a word or sentence, press a button, and every instance of said word or sentence will lit up.

 

It's basic indexing, not magic. The biggest work is getting the condition filter just right to avoid unjust flags, but that only takes time, not manpower.

oh i didnt know we had a bw employee here, whats their db index gui app called?

[Theeko]

i think #2 is impossible.

 

if i lose all of my 192 barrels/hilts next week i'll unsub.

i predict they send a warning to some and ban *some* accounts for exceptional exploiting (ie changing servers, charging for exploit in gen chat, accounts that performed the exploit an excessive amount etc)

 

Agree don't want anyone to suffer that legitly bought stuff from the Gtn and had nothing to do with it. If they do I'd like to see them refund these if they do take them away.

[Pagy]

Pretty much. Narrowing down the player base to a list of people who exploited with 100% certainty is utterly trivial, assuming they have the ability to search their player database based on player inventory, have records of every time loot was picked up in that instance, or 1-2 of tons of other parameters. There is a 0% chance that someone innocent would be caught, and only a very negligible chance that someone guilty would be left out. They could even distinguish one-time users from major users pretty easily. Granted, I'm thinking about this as someone who's worked with various databases for over a decade - in some cases doing exactly this - but I'm pretty confident even a novice could figure out how to write a script that parses through their logs and player inventories.

 

Point being, if their logging ability is even remotely worth its salt, finding the exploiters is a non-issue. So don't think you're safe just because "it would be too much work to find us all".

 

That said, there are tons of other reasons that you should feel safe, and plenty more that you shouldn't even care one way or the other, because the bottom line is this game needs you more than you need it.

so i take it then youve never opened a ticket for operation loot related issues?

 

because between myself and guildies, no one ever gets their loot and are told "gee sorry we cant be sure".

 

if you think they have tools to perform mass investigations like this youre deluding yourself. bw cant even ban credit spammers within 48 hours nm investigate operations loot issues.

[Sashandra]

A little bit more math here, and this math is much more important to BW than just about anything else. If we indeed go along with your numbers:

 

720 x $15 per month = $10,800 per month in lost revenue. Now I can already hear some claiming "Oh thats nothing, they make blah blah blah blah". Companies exist to make money. As much as they can. A guaranteed loss of $10,800 per month is NOT going to happen.

 

And that's a loss for just one side, one server for 1.5 hours. Most of those, being subscribers, would also be spenders in the cartel market (personally I spend up to $100 per month on average in the market). Add cartel losses to the sub losses and the per month loss starts to rapidly climb.

 

"All exploiters need to be banned" is not a financially viable option. CS has told many many people that after an armoring/mod/enhancement has been pulled from an item it rapidly becomes difficult to track what happens (and that is for people wanting to get a single item restored), so there is a good chance that there is no ability to delete or differentiate gear. The credits gained may also be problematic, how do they differentiate what item was made by an exploiter and what item was made by a crafter that bought exploited mats? Then how do they separate schematics learned from exploited drops versus those gained from comms and raid drops.

 

With costs associated with and workload required for any of the more draconian "punishments", the greater odds are for warning letters, permanent infractions and possibly 1-3 day bans for most. A small number (the originators and those that carried it across servers) may get more severe penalties. A small possibility for the future may also be a policy change where Bioware acknowledges the existence on an exploit (if they cant immediately hot fix it) and warn that further use will result in bans.

[Theeko]

With costs associated with and workload required for any of the more draconian "punishments", the greater odds are for warning letters, permanent infractions and possibly 1-3 day bans for most. A small number (the originators and those that carried it across servers) may get more severe penalties. A small possibility for the future may also be a policy change where Bioware acknowledges the existence on an exploit (if they cant immediately hot fix it) and warn that further use will result in bans.

 

Tell that to World of tanks that only had about 130k (Us servers) in peek hours and yet they still ban people for exploiting / cheating / not obeying the rules.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Theeko

[Sashandra]

Tell that to World of tanks that only had about 130k in peek hours and yet they still ban people for exploiting / cheating / not obeying the rules.

 

Plenty of games ban, but the factors of cost, how many, history of action taken, workload required to figure it all out will always be considered.

 

Notice the "history of action taken". For all the exploits that have existed in this game bioware has only a few times banned players. Exploits have existed in pvp, pve, flashpoints, ops, GSF, events since the start. Out of the multitude only a few times have players been banned (things like the cartel market collections). That is what leads to the expectation of inaction.

[Kryand]

Tell that to World of tanks that only had about 130k (Us servers) in peek hours and yet they still ban people for exploiting / cheating / not obeying the rules.

 

Isn't WoT free-to-play only? If so, their actions are completely irrelevant.

[Theeko]

Isn't WoT free-to-play only? If so, their actions are completely irrelevant.

 

It's free to play but they also ban people that spend thousands of dollars on gold and the premium it provides like Swtor.