annabethchase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You overestimate your value to the game. Assuming there are currently ~500k subscribers, if Bioware were to permanently ban the top 500 exploiters, they would potentially eat a "loss" of 1/10th of 1%. Exploiters need to be dealt with severely to prevent this from happening again in the future. Banning 500 accounts would destroy the raiding for months. That number would be nearly all of the "serious" raiders who account for nearly all progression and PUGs because for the most part it's the same core people on different toons over and over. If you pug enough, you'll realize your constantly invited to the same mumble servers over and over. I'm of the opinion that about 5% of the player base raids more than once for the story. So taking out 1% of the total players is more like 20% of the raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I haven't even stepped into an operation since 3.0. But hey, go on, keep telling me what I am or am not. Do people even bother to look at who's being responded to or any sort of context anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 No one is getting banned, mark my words. No way BW is going to throw away ANY paying customers. Bans are for the serious of serious ( the ones that actually cost BW money) of infractions (and also gold spammer F2P accounts). Worst case (or best case depending PoV) some guilds will get disbanded and a few 1-7 day suspensions will occur(and I highly doubt they will even go that far). Come Tuesday the exploit will be (hopeful) sent to Darth Baras's footlocker, and life will go on as normal, with some other issue taking the place of this one. I also foresee no one losing crafting mats or mods, too much of a head ache, too much room for fluffing stuff up. Anyone who thinks anything more is going to happen is seriously deluding themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 10's of thousands of players might get in trouble for a "exploit" they didn't think was an exploit. Selling a lockout and instructions on how to cheat is one end of the spectrum. Exiting area because your group leader said it would bug out if you don't exit is another. Not everyone knew how this worked. 10,000s? 10,000s of players are not even running the Op, let alone using the exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzraFett Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Not cheating, exploiting a game feature. If the developers were up to snuff, there would be no exploits.: to-may-to, to-mah-to Edited January 15, 2015 by EzraFett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Do people even bother to look at who's being responded to or any sort of context anymore? In my experience, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 In my experience, no. Sadly, you may be right. There was nothing in that post that said "and Jandi is one of them" regarding anything I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandi Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Do people even bother to look at who's being responded to or any sort of context anymore? Says the guy who keeps lumping everyone into neat little categories in the same post as he is bashing people for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzraFett Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Do people even bother to look at who's being responded to or any sort of context anymore? I do, I hope that makes you feel better I do, we are conversing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandi Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sadly, you may be right. There was nothing in that post that said "and Jandi is one of them" regarding anything I said. When you say "those baying for blood", it includes me in it. I want these people gone, the fact that I'm not raging about it doesn't change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Rules have no meaning whatsoever if there is no personal consequence for breaking the rules. If you decided to speed all of the time, and when you got pulled over the cop just told you that you shouldn't do that (never gave you a ticket), then you would just continue to speed. Same thing with shoplifting, no punishment, no problem, keep shoplifting. That is what this exploit sounds like, shoplifting. Stealing something you didn't "pay" for by actually being in the op group that killed the boss. Thats what Eric Musco have to understand. If there are people who are doing it over and over again, then by all means that is a massive exploit. That would warrant lifetime ban. If there will be some temporary bans or just removal of items or credits by using exploit, then it gives green light for future to go berserk if exploit is found and get the max out of it. Now is time to enforce the T&C violation in FULL consequence. Edited January 11, 2015 by Divona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Says the guy who keeps lumping everyone into neat little categories in the same post as he is bashing people for doing so. When you say "those baying for blood", it includes me in it. I want these people gone, the fact that I'm not raging about it doesn't change it. The post you're currently pissed off about includes qualifiers and conditionals, which makes it pretty much the opposite of "lumping everyone into neat little categories", at least in English. As for you wanting "those people" gone, would you rather err on the side of protecting the innocent from being hit by "punishments", or are you one of the people that's actually so eager to "get them" that you'd happily see players who've literally done nothing and have no idea what this exploit even is, caught up in the punishments as long as the people who are "ruining the game" face "justice"? Are you one of the "witch-hunters" I was referring to, who assumes everyone not baying for blood must be an exploiter, and is indulging in the ugliest sort of mob-think, or does your view leave room for people who don't share your opinion for other reasons, for disagreement in good faith? Don't confuse your inferences with what's actually in the post. If you infer that something I've said to someone else, or using general terms, applies to you, then maybe the post struck closer to home than you like to admit to yourself. Edited January 11, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Quite a few of those posting for significant banning are folks that used the Nefra exploit. Lets go back and ban anyone who used the Nefra exploit while we're at it That's... one hell of an assumption, unless you have access to information that the rest of us don't. It's the sort of blanket assumption that isn't fair from the witch-hunters, and it's not fair from you either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzraFett Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Thats what Eric Musco have to understand. If there are people who are doing it over and over again, then by all means that is a massive exploit. That would warrant lifetime ban. If there will be some temporary bans or just removal of items or credits by using exploit, then it gives green light for future to go berserk if exploit is found and get the max out of it. Now is time to enforce the T&C violation in FULL consequence. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) As i said before, its just like the car theif scenario. All the cheaters tryingb to justify themselves with assinine reasons pulled out of their butts. "Well, you left that car unlocked, so thst means it is ok for me to steal it. You would have locked it if you didnt want me to steal it! So its YOUR fault -I- stole your car! Next time make sure you lock it. And if you dint lock it, your saying its ok to steal that one too!" It doesnt matter if you cheat or steal something virtual or physical, either way you did something wrong, and people want you held accountable for it The sheer amount of people offended that people dont like cheaters is mind boggling, and says a lot of things about the state of society today, bad things. Do i think the cheaters should be tarred feathered, and burned at the stake? (Humerous poke at the "DELETE ALL THE CHEATERS CHARACTERS NAOW!" idea) No, but i do feel they should be punished in a way that will make them pause and think first next time they want to do something similar. Edited January 11, 2015 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) As i said before, its just like the car theif scenario. All the cheaters tryingb to justify themselves with assinine reasons pulled out of their butts. "Well, you left that car unlocked, so thst means it is ok for me to steal it. You would have locked it if you didnt want me to steal it! So its YOUR fault -I- stole your car! Next time make sure you lock it. And if you dint lock it, your saying its ok to steal that one too!" It doesnt mstter if you cheat or steal something virtual or physical, either way you did somethingbwrong, andvpeople want you held accountable for it The sheer amount of people offended that people dont like cheaters is mind boggling, and says a lot of things about the state of society today, bad things. Do i think the cheaters should be tarred feathered, and burned at the stake? (Humerous poke at the "DELETE ALL THE CHEATERS CHARACTERS NAOW!" idea) No, but i do feel they should be punished in a way that will make them pause and think first next time they want to do something similar. It's more that many of us are so put off by those who are dead serious about the attitude you poke fun at in your last paragraph, so disgusted by the dead serious assertions that it's better to punish the innocent than let any of the guilty slip through and that anyone who isn't in favor of this draconian dragnet must be one of the cheaters, that we'd rather see nothing done than see the sort of heavy-handed "justice" that's being demanded. It's not that we don't like people who don't like cheaters, it's that we don't like the witch-hunt mentality. Edited January 11, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Banning 500 accounts would destroy the raiding for months. That number would be nearly all of the "serious" raiders who account for nearly all progression and PUGs because for the most part it's the same core people on different toons over and over. If you pug enough, you'll realize your constantly invited to the same mumble servers over and over. I'm of the opinion that about 5% of the player base raids more than once for the story. So taking out 1% of the total players is more like 20% of the raiders. and they are almost all subscribers. and when they leave, many of their friends will be going with them. many of them are high level crafters keeping you geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 10,000s? 10,000s of players are not even running the Op, let alone using the exploit. if that was the case they wouldn't be making ops at all. 1 million players confirmed, 10's of thousands would be single digit participation rate. I believe that rate is about 5% which would mean 50k raiders exist, give or take however wrong my 5% estimate is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It's your hyporcisy that pissed me off. As for the first part... they have exact logs of what people do and when, with who and how. It's not like you can accidentally reproduce the bug. The way to do it is quite specific. do you think they have the manpower to go through all of those logs? line by line? not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 As i said before, its just like the car theif scenario. All the cheaters tryingb to justify themselves with assinine reasons pulled out of their butts. "Well, you left that car unlocked, so thst means it is ok for me to steal it. You would have locked it if you didnt want me to steal it! So its YOUR fault -I- stole your car! Next time make sure you lock it. And if you dint lock it, your saying its ok to steal that one too!" It doesnt matter if you cheat or steal something virtual or physical, either way you did something wrong, and people want you held accountable for it The sheer amount of people offended that people dont like cheaters is mind boggling, and says a lot of things about the state of society today, bad things. Do i think the cheaters should be tarred feathered, and burned at the stake? (Humerous poke at the "DELETE ALL THE CHEATERS CHARACTERS NAOW!" idea) No, but i do feel they should be punished in a way that will make them pause and think first next time they want to do something similar. its more like the "cutting the tag off of your own mattress scenario" doesnt actually hurt any one but it is technically a crime. should we build prison camps for all the tag cutters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 do you think they have the manpower to go through all of those logs? line by line? not a chance. And do people want a minimum wage employee who would be checking these logs in charge of the fate of your account? Do you really think he/she would not make some mistakes? I'm in the camp that if there is a guild who organized, transferred servers and sold the exploit and it can be proven then that can be considered for punishment, but anything beyond that would get into a more massive project than building a brand new tier of ops would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 its more like the "cutting the tag off of your own mattress scenario" doesnt actually hurt any one but it is technically a crime. should we build prison camps for all the tag cutters? I keep seeing this example. Go read the tag on your own mattress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 You know what grinds my gears more than this? The tython flashpoint bug. It's unplayable on republic side. that matters so much more to my daily experience because I can't use hardmode groupfinder as intended. 1) I don't want to drop group every time it comes up 2) I don't want to forego my rewards each day to avoid it 3) some people aren't hopping into groupfinder at all to avoid the situation That's something that actually negatively effects me. And there are dozens of examples that I can give like this. Just like the Nefra bug, I won't even care about this exploit once it's closed, but I'll certainly remember these more problematic bugs like Tython. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I keep seeing this example. Go read the tag on your own mattress... Agreed, it's more like speeding at 60 in a 55 mph zone. Yeah it's wrong, but it just isn't important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) if that was the case they wouldn't be making ops at all. 1 million players confirmed, 10's of thousands would be single digit participation rate. I believe that rate is about 5% which would mean 50k raiders exist, give or take however wrong my 5% estimate is. Your probably in the ballpark. Participation varies depending on the study and/or public information released by developers when it can be had, but the general acceptable level for dedicated raiding is anywhere from 1% up to 10%, depending on which study you accept and which game is being referenced. It is more likely, however, that dedicated folks that run Ops is a portion of that percentage, and it is unlikely it would be half. Probably more like a third, so that means somewhere between 10k and 30k players total based on a million active players if that is the case at present. Remember, in general less than 25% of a modern MMOs playerbase participates in end game raiding and/or PVP on a regular basis. This number has shrank considerably over the last 8 years, especially in the East. Edited January 11, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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