Why Is Sidious The Most Powerful Sith?

[dljtanke]

I constantly hear talk of Sidious being the most powerful Sith that ever lived, but I can't find anything in the lore that would state why that is. Everything seems to suggest that he was an average Sith lord, besides the fact he studied ancient Sith writings which probably wouldn't have made him any more powerful.

 

The idea Sidious could be more powerful than Sith such as Vitiate or Nihilus, both of which have eaten at least one planet, seems odd to me.

Edited January 8, 2015 by dljtanke

[jovianus]

I constantly hear talk of Sidious being the most powerful Sith that ever lived, but I can't find anything in the lore that would state why that is. Everything seems to suggest that he was an average Sith lord, besides the fact he studied ancient Sith writings which probably wouldn't have made him any more powerful.

 

The idea Sidious could be more powerful than Sith such as Vitiate or Nihilus, both of which have eaten at least one planet, seems odd to me.

 

Because George Lucas said so, and George Lucas really doesn't/didn't care about EU writers competing with eachother to see who could come up with the most over the top 'FORCE POWER OF DOOOOOOMMMM!!" because that's obviously the only possible way to make Force users interesting.

[dljtanke]

Because George Lucas said so, and George Lucas really doesn't/didn't care about EU writers competing with eachother to see who could come up with the most over the top 'FORCE POWER OF DOOOOOOMMMM!!" because that's obviously the only possible way to make Force users interesting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since Darth Bane was inspired by Revan wouldn't that mean Revan technically carries over to GL's continuity? So would that mean Sidious would have to contend with Revan for the title of most powerful, or does Revan in GL's continuity not have nearly as much power as he does in EU?

Edited January 8, 2015 by dljtanke

[DarkAngelRiku]

Revan unfortunately didn't carry over with Bane to the new canon. He was originally going to in The Clone Wars series along with Bane during the arc with The Son, but the creators took him out last minute.

[Andrellma]

For the same reason that Anakin is the Chosen One. Because Lucas said so.

 

Following the Rule of Two that was implemented by Bane, each Sith would be more powerful than the one who came before him/her. Either through wisdom, guile, or strength, each Apprentice was required to eliminate his or her master, or die. Thus:

 

Bane < Zannah < Cognus < ------------------------------------------------------------------ < Plagieus < Sidious

 

Sidious fulfilled the Rule of Two by successfully taking over the Galaxy, though he was eventually defeated by Anakin, who was fulfilling the prophecy of the Chosen One.

[LadyKulvax]

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/emperor-palpatinedarth-sidious-respect-thread/63101/

 

You are welcome.

[Highsis]

Papl is not that powerful in the movie but following the movie, EU and various supplement to the series made Him and and Luke god like. Pal in dark empire(his clone survived Vader's kill) can consume hundreds of dreadnaughts with his force storm and he can siphon power from trillions of lives. Plus GL claimed Sidiosu is the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived.

 

I know it's *********** ridiculous that Sidious didn't die at the end of ROTJ because it ****s up all the prophecy stuff and lore continuity, but whatever. It's all you get, so we should take it in whether we like it or not.

[dcaleb]

Because George said so, no matter what any other sith ever does (even if they show up his feats in those ridiculous comics) Sidious is still better. SWTOR could end with the Emperor eating the entire galaxy and reveal that the latter stuff happens in another galaxy that happens to be almost exactly the same and Palpatine would still be stronger.

[Ershiin]

Because unlike in Dragonball, power does not always translate into one's ability to beat other people up.

Sidius' power comes from more than just being a fancy duelist and a sorceror. He is a shrewd leader, able to bend people to his will without the need of brute force and petty threats.

Sidius did what no other Sith before him could manage, and not only brought the Republic to its knees, but turned it into his service.. Willingly.

During the movies, he is not only the most powerful Sith, but the single most powerful person that has ever lived.

Because beyond a meager handful of pitiful rebels and some worthless crime gangs. He commands the galaxy it in its entirety.

 

Remember that even though there can be no doubt that Bruce Lee would be able to beat up someone like Stalin without breaking a sweat.. There can also be no doubt as to which of the two were more "powerful".

Edited February 2, 2015 by Ershiin

[Fangyman]

Because George said so, no matter what any other sith ever does (even if they show up his feats in those ridiculous comics) Sidious is still better. SWTOR could end with the Emperor eating the entire galaxy and reveal that the latter stuff happens in another galaxy that happens to be almost exactly the same and Palpatine would still be stronger.

 

It isn't just George Lucas.

 

KJA, Kennedy, Veitch, and numerous other editors at Dark Horse, Bantam Books, and Del Rey Books have confirmed over and over again that Palpatine is the ultimate big bad. Exar Kun came close at very near second place until the creation and reveal of characters like Vitiate/Sith Emperor and Darth Caedus.

 

When asked who was stronger, KJA and Veitch both answered when tasked with the question of comparing power in the Force between Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, and Palpatine they answered Palpatine is the greatest Sith Lord in history. Period. Exar Kun was citied as the most powerful and greatest Dark Lord of the Sith prior to Palpatine and Sadow was called the most powerful Sith of his era. Throughout the addition of adding newer big bad antagonists in the EU lore and continuity, Palpatine/Sidious has always straddled at the top of the food chain.

 

And quite frankly its nothing to be ashamed of. Exar Kun is no slouch either, invented the saberstaff, was a master of Jar'Kai and Niman styles, could slay a giant Sithspawn with a casual blast of dark side energy blasts, freeze hundreds of thousands of Republican senators and delegates with his sorcery, and even pulled a Nihilus on the Massassai people and survived as a spirit the Wall of Light holocaust that devastated Yavin 4 1400 years prior to the current events in TOR. Vitiate isn't lacking in feats either.

 

But its just solidified both by Sidious own showings, feats, and powers he stands at the top. And the fact many different writers and authors and editors have echoed and repeated this line of thinking consistently is a good thing more then anything else. For example: KoTOR II introduced the concept of Force Draining (even though it already existed in a more exotic form more then half a decade earlier from Tales of the Jedi comics) and Nihilus eating worlds heavy with the Force.

 

In the late 90s we had already had Palpatine munching on Byss, turning it into a dark side nexus and feasting on the 20 billion inhabitants he put into a mental coma. The feats are always there.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Fangyman

[rashadk]

Because unlike in Dragonball, power does not always translate into one's ability to beat other people up.

Sidius' power comes from more than just being a fancy duelist and a sorceror. He is a shrewd leader, able to bend people to his will without the need of brute force and petty threats.

Sidius did what no other Sith before him could manage, and not only brought the Republic to its knees, but turned it into his service.. Willingly.

During the movies, he is not only the most powerful Sith, but the single most powerful person that has ever lived.

Because beyond a meager handful of pitiful rebels and some worthless crime gangs. He commands the galaxy it in its entirety.

 

Remember that even though there can be no doubt that Bruce Lee would be able to beat up someone like Stalin without breaking a sweat.. There can also be no doubt as to which of the two were more "powerful".

 

While I like and agree with your point, it unfortunately doesn't apply here since Sidious, as he's written, is a combination of "Bruce Lee" and "Stalin". He is simultaneously the greatest force user, lightsaber duelist, tactician, all while being the most evil. This exaggeration wasn't necessary from a story POV, but it is what it is. I would have found his character a lot more intriguing if he was as you describe. Instead he's this cartoonishly overpowered individual who likely had it in him to take over the galaxy the "brute force way" like all his Sith predecessors instead of doing it like a boss behind the scenes. I would have appreciated a Sith who, while powerful, succeeded because of his execution of a brilliant plan and possession of abilities other Sith lacked (like diplomacy and presentability).

[Fangyman]

While I like and agree with your point, it unfortunately doesn't apply here since Sidious, as he's written, is a combination of "Bruce Lee" and "Stalin". He is simultaneously the greatest force user, lightsaber duelist, tactician, all while being the most evil. This exaggeration wasn't necessary from a story POV, but it is what it is. I would have found his character a lot more intriguing if he was as you describe. Instead he's this cartoonishly overpowered individual who likely had it in him to take over the galaxy the "brute force way" like all his Sith predecessors instead of doing it like a boss behind the scenes. I would have appreciated a Sith who, while powerful, succeeded because of his execution of a brilliant plan and possession of abilities other Sith lacked (like diplomacy and presentability).

 

Sidious had to get a crippled Plagueis drunk, pass out, and murder him in his sleep to step out of his master's shadow in terms of power. Sidious performed the greatest galactic coup, destroyed the Jedi Order, and swung the pendulum of the Force's alignment back to the dark side for decades with the Jedi Purge and toppling of the Galactic Republic.

 

He played both sides of the Clone Wars, had numerous Jedi defect, become KIA or MIA in the war, and the rest purged. Sidious for all his power before the establishment of the Empire and Jedi Purge, in the twilight of the Clone Wars, had to use more of his planning, cunning, and teachings to manipulate the Jedi and Republic into folding like a house of cards. He would have never taken on in terms of physical ability Yoda, Windu, the rest of the High Council, and the entirety of the Jedi Order in face to face combat and survived.

 

So as much as Palpatine is stated to be the greatest duelist, lightsaber master, sorcerer, and powerful for the Sith, he really thrived more because of his ability to be smart. There is a reason why he's stated to be an amalgamation of Stalin, Napoleon, and Julius Caesar. Because as great as his martial skills are, his greater still in his ability to manipulate through politics and deception his standing as the "greatest Sith Lord in history".

[rashadk]

Sidious had to get a crippled Plagueis drunk, pass out, and murder him in his sleep to step out of his master's shadow in terms of power. Sidious performed the greatest galactic coup, destroyed the Jedi Order, and swung the pendulum of the Force's alignment back to the dark side for decades with the Jedi Purge and toppling of the Galactic Republic.

 

He played both sides of the Clone Wars, had numerous Jedi defect, become KIA or MIA in the war, and the rest purged. Sidious for all his power before the establishment of the Empire and Jedi Purge, in the twilight of the Clone Wars, had to use more of his planning, cunning, and teachings to manipulate the Jedi and Republic into folding like a house of cards. He would have never taken on in terms of physical ability Yoda, Windu, the rest of the High Council, and the entirety of the Jedi Order in face to face combat and survived.

 

So as much as Palpatine is stated to be the greatest duelist, lightsaber master, sorcerer, and powerful for the Sith, he really thrived more because of his ability to be smart. There is a reason why he's stated to be an amalgamation of Stalin, Napoleon, and Julius Caesar. Because as great as his martial skills are, his greater still in his ability to manipulate through politics and deception his standing as the "greatest Sith Lord in history".

 

Well said. I suppose my only gripe would be then why was it necessary for him to simultaneously be the greatest duelist and sorcerer on top of the things you mentioned which as you say are what made him the greatest SL ever? I suppose I could understand the sorcerer part, but him being this god of dueling on top of that was overkill imo. Don't get me wrong, I love Sidious' character.. particularly because he was capable of doing things other stupider Sith weren't (e.g. killing his master in his sleep instead of concerning himself with winning honorably, political maneuvering, being patient), it just kind of ruins it for me that on top of these GL had to appeal to the action junkies by making him a ninja with the saber as well.

[ExarKunxx]

 

And quite frankly its nothing to be ashamed of. Exar Kun is no slouch either, invented the saberstaff, was a master of Jar'Kai and Niman styles, could slay a giant Sithspawn with a casual blast of dark side energy blasts, freeze hundreds of thousands of Republican senators and delegates with his sorcery, and even pulled a Nihilus on the Massassai people and survived as a spirit the Wall of Light holocaust that devastated Yavin 4 1400 years prior to the current events in TOR.

 

 

Don't forget creation of the nigh invincible dark reaper.

[Frenesi]

One good thing to come out of Disney takeover - it overwrites all the moon-throwing-endless-cloning BS from post RotJ.

[ZetaZoran]

Sidious is the most powerful for now. Remember Disney controls Star Wars and they can and will do what ever they want.

 

I honestly think they could of killed him in Episode III if Yoda had taken Obi with him to fight him. If they had killed Sidious then all of his plans would of fallen apart and Anakin would of been alone and with out Sidious then there is no way he could of taken control of the Universe.

 

What I think is funny is despite all his power he could not stop Vader from picking him up and throwing him into a reactor. You would not see Reven going down like that, just saying...

[Kyrrant]

To me?

 

Sideous is an above-average Sith in terms of raw power. Stronger than most, but easily outclassed by a number of the Sith of the Old Republic era. Vitaite would chew him up and spit him out in a heartbeat, Nox would tear him a new one, Wrath would give him swirleys and Marr would just pat him on the head and walk past.

 

Sideous is also the single most accomplished Sith in Star Wars, because he managed to go from a Senator on a minor world no one really gave a **** about, into the destructor of the Jedi Order, responsible for the deaths of almost every Jedi alive, and turned the Republic into a totalitarian Empire, the most powerful force in the Galaxy.

 

The problem is that EU writers, and Lucas for that matter, confuse Raw Force Power with the intelligence, cunning and raw drive that made Sideous stand out so much. He doesn't have to be the most powerful Sith to be the most incredible Sith, because no one really can knock him down for everything he accomplished in the films.

 

Let him be weak on average. That's how he can become so fantastically strong...

[Jrr_hypernova]

Because unlike in Dragonball, power does not always translate into one's ability to beat other people up.

Sidius' power comes from more than just being a fancy duelist and a sorceror. He is a shrewd leader, able to bend people to his will without the need of brute force and petty threats.

Sidius did what no other Sith before him could manage, and not only brought the Republic to its knees, but turned it into his service.. Willingly.

During the movies, he is not only the most powerful Sith, but the single most powerful person that has ever lived.

Because beyond a meager handful of pitiful rebels and some worthless crime gangs. He commands the galaxy it in its entirety.

 

Remember that even though there can be no doubt that Bruce Lee would be able to beat up someone like Stalin without breaking a sweat.. There can also be no doubt as to which of the two were more "powerful".

 

Finally a post saying why sidious is awesome without going into the crap that ruined his character by making him a generic super powered idiot. Sidious is at his best when he's being a awesome puppet master and not being turned into a Dragon ball charater by bad eu writers.

[Jake_Chambers]

Sidious is the most powerful for now. Remember Disney controls Star Wars and they can and will do what ever they want.

 

I honestly think they could of killed him in Episode III if Yoda had taken Obi with him to fight him. If they had killed Sidious then all of his plans would of fallen apart and Anakin would of been alone and with out Sidious then there is no way he could of taken control of the Universe.

 

What I think is funny is despite all his power he could not stop Vader from picking him up and throwing him into a reactor. You would not see Reven going down like that, just saying...

 

Um, no. Obi-Wan wouldn't have even been able to react to Sidious, more than likely. Mace (who was superior to Obi), needed a massive amp to even hang with Sidious for a bit, and Yoda is easily outclassing Obi, so I'm not sure how the outcome would have been different at all.

 

Also, Sidious isn't more powerful than the Force, so it's not exactly like it was as simple as Vader icing him up and throwing him over (which btw happened in the late 70's?). Not to mention that he became even more powerful after his death so maybe, idk it was beneficial. As for Revan, the characters in this game do not compare favorable to Sidious.

[Jake_Chambers]

To me?

 

Sideous is an above-average Sith in terms of raw power. Stronger than most, but easily outclassed by a number of the Sith of the Old Republic era. Vitaite would chew him up and spit him out in a heartbeat, Nox would tear him a new one, Wrath would give him swirleys and Marr would just pat him on the head and walk past.

 

.

 

lol

based on what?

[Kyrrant]

lol

based on what?

 

Based on what we see in the films. Palpatine's shown with a strong control over Lightning, is a very good saber duelist, but for Sith, his powers run to the mundane.

 

Okay, okay, I was being a bit facetious with that list, but in the Old Republic, there are countless Sith jockeying for position, and many of them (Vitiale and Nox in particular) have access to esoteric, and extremely potent, Force abilities. Any Sith that rises to the top in this era is going to have to overcome so many more powerful challenges, it only makes sense.

 

And, really, there's no contest between Vitiale and Sidious. The Emperor of this era had a good shot of killing all life in the galaxy, ffs, and was only stopped moments away from success....... like four times so far.

 

Palpatine still has him beat in terms of accomplishments, though. That doesn't mean he'd win a straight-up fight, though.

[Rhyltran]

Based on what we see in the films. Palpatine's shown with a strong control over Lightning, is a very good saber duelist, but for Sith, his powers run to the mundane.

 

Okay, okay, I was being a bit facetious with that list, but in the Old Republic, there are countless Sith jockeying for position, and many of them (Vitiale and Nox in particular) have access to esoteric, and extremely potent, Force abilities. Any Sith that rises to the top in this era is going to have to overcome so many more powerful challenges, it only makes sense.

 

And, really, there's no contest between Vitiale and Sidious. The Emperor of this era had a good shot of killing all life in the galaxy, ffs, and was only stopped moments away from success....... like four times so far.

 

Palpatine still has him beat in terms of accomplishments, though. That doesn't mean he'd win a straight-up fight, though.

 

Sidious when he returned in a clone body in the dark empire comics was able to use force wormholes that could devastate moons and destroy entire starfleets. If Vitiate could blow away starfleets I think the republic would have collapsed long ago.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

Based on what we see in the films. Palpatine's shown with a strong control over Lightning, is a very good saber duelist, but for Sith, his powers run to the mundane.

 

Okay, okay, I was being a bit facetious with that list, but in the Old Republic, there are countless Sith jockeying for position, and many of them (Vitiale and Nox in particular) have access to esoteric, and extremely potent, Force abilities. Any Sith that rises to the top in this era is going to have to overcome so many more powerful challenges, it only makes sense.

 

And, really, there's no contest between Vitiale and Sidious. The Emperor of this era had a good shot of killing all life in the galaxy, ffs, and was only stopped moments away from success....... like four times so far.

 

Palpatine still has him beat in terms of accomplishments, though. That doesn't mean he'd win a straight-up fight, though.

 

I think you ignore something. Bane destroyed the entire Sith Brotherhood in order to institute the rule of 2 so one of the most powerful Sith in history is the first. The rule of 2 is set up so that the next Sith is by definition more powerful tan their former "Master" as this Sith must kill their Master to become the new dark lord. So in essence Bane created a system similar to that of Natural Selection, each generation of Sith more powerful than the last, even if it is simply from an purely analytic point of view.

 

As for esoteric knowledge...simply because you don't see him actively using such abilities in the movies he was the apprentice of Plagueis and I can't think of anything more esoteric than being familiar with direct manipulation of midichlorians.

[Kyrrant]

Sidious when he returned in a clone body in the dark empire comics was able to use force wormholes that could devastate moons and destroy entire starfleets. If Vitiate could blow away starfleets I think the republic would have collapsed long ago.

 

Its cheating, I know, but I'm deliberately ignoring pose VI EU... mainly because of stuff like "Clone Hand Luuke" and "Clone-Resurrected Sidious".

 

Not that TOR's Force stuff's that normal, mind you, but... at least it doesn't get quite that ludicrous.

 

I think you ignore something. Bane destroyed the entire Sith Brotherhood in order to institute the rule of 2 so one of the most powerful Sith in history is the first. The rule of 2 is set up so that the next Sith is by definition more powerful tan their former "Master" as this Sith must kill their Master to become the new dark lord. So in essence Bane created a system similar to that of Natural Selection, each generation of Sith more powerful than the last, even if it is simply from an purely analytic point of view.

 

As for esoteric knowledge...simply because you don't see him actively using such abilities in the movies he was the apprentice of Plagueis and I can't think of anything more esoteric than being familiar with direct manipulation of midichlorians.

 

I disagree that Bane's method creates stronger Sith. It makes the Sith Order far more fragile, pushes much of the effort on staying off the Jedi's radar, prevents the sharing of knowledge and collaboration, and severely limits the sort of options available to the Sith because they have minimal support structure of personnel, to whom critical tasks could be delegated to.

 

Which is probably why he shows no esoteric powers in any of the three situations where he is, quite literally, fighting for his life in the films: Those techniques died with the pre-Bane Sith Order, and there's few ways to recover that knowledge.

 

The EU has this fascination with making Sidious more powerful than he needs to be. He works far, far better as a fairly powerful, but not overwhelming, Sith that, since he can't outright destroy the Jedi Order on his own, has to play the long game, and take over the Republic from within.

 

But no, EU writers gotta make the OG Sith the most powerful one too, so he can now create wormholes with the Force because screw you for wanting cunning, low powered villains!

[Beniboybling]

The EU has this fascination with making Sidious more powerful than he needs to be. He works far, far better as a fairly powerful, but not overwhelming, Sith that, since he can't outright destroy the Jedi Order on his own, has to play the long game, and take over the Republic from within.

 

But no, EU writers gotta make the OG Sith the most powerful one too, so he can now create wormholes with the Force because screw you for wanting cunning, low powered villains!

I disagree, Palpatine isn't just a cunning politician, indeed prior to the Prequels he wasn't that at all. What Palpatine is is an embodiment of evil and the dark side, and that kind of individual needs to be powerful if he's to have any credence as symbolic of those concepts. Regardless he never could have destroyed the Jedi and taken over the Republic alone.

 

We also have to remember that Darth Sidious is a Sith Lord, who follows the Sith Code. Political power was always secondary in regards to Palpatine's goals, galactic domination was always a means to an end. What he really wanted was domination over the Force, mastery over the dark side, because that is the ultimate goal of the Sith.

 

Indeed his end objective was to create an empire fueled by the dark side, that and many other concepts wouldn't make sense if Palpatine were not supremely powerful. Along with the concept of him suceeding where others have failed.

 

And while I'm here and seeing as I have them on hand, I may as well respond to the OP's question:

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

 

--Taken From Vader: The Ultimate Guide

 

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

 

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

 

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power bides his time.

 

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

 

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenceless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side’s most powerful expression.

 

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

 

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

 

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Palpatine also has plenty of feats and accolades that reinforce these claims.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Beniboybling