Speed Scout and Charged Plating Imperium -> both hard countered by Gunship

[Ryuku-sama]

It's also the only railgun available to the T3 gunship, so if it becomes ineffective against certain ships the T3 takes a huge nerf.

 

Why not fly a T3 BLC/Cluster/Inter??? I know a few people that were going crazy trying to shake off my infinite lock-on while being hammered by BLC... You just need to play it like a strike.

[MiaowZedong]

Why not fly a T3 BLC/Cluster/Inter??? I know a few people that were going crazy trying to shake off my infinite lock-on while being hammered by BLC... You just need to play it like a strike.

"The Jurgoran is a better Quell than the Quell", everyone knows this.

 

But played that way it is not as powerful as a real gunship, especially not in TDM. It's essentially a BLC/cluster scout that gains Interdiction Missile and gives up a whole lot of speed, agility, endurance and evasion.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[ALaggyGrunt]

Just had a match where the gunship kept hiding behind his capital ship turrets soon as anyone got close he would run. Then while they are flying back he can snipe them defended by his turrets.

 

Of course his team lost as he was doing nothing to capture the satellites but the play highlights there is no reasonable counter. No other ship has this option and it is incredibly dull to have someone taking free shots (which for a fully upgraded shot isn't easily ignored) that as soon as you get close can hide and there is nothing you can do about it. As even taking your own gunship to take him out while his hiding leaves you exposed sitting meters away from where they will respawn.

 

I've been known to do that when I've figured out my team of noobs has no hope of going up against one of those 8-man premades. Flying solo, there are a lot of times that's the only strategy which won't have you pointlessly flying into whatever walls of death they have set up.

[Fractalsponge]

Why in blazes are you happy that the vast majority of builds, even the vast majority of ships, are underpowered and easily beaten using a few very common builds.

 

I'm pretty sure that's almost exactly what he didn't say. He said "easily soloes" not "is completely useless/underpowered against."

 

I believe Nemarus' problem was that he was focused by multiple gunships and bombers. The builds he was using individually are fine against any single ship. But no build should be able to survive and indeed easily solo defeat that kind of sustained focus from remotely competent opposition. I'd be far more worried about the meta if there were such a build.

 

Vast majorities of anything in gsf is hyperbolic. There are only 4 ship types, with for the most part fairly defined specializations. Saying 1 ship type is underpowered vs 2 other ship types isn't all that bad balance. The only really broken ship is the T2 strike, which has no real role. Battlescouts are just overtuned a bit.

 

The number of "builds" available is also low, which is ok. No one expects a game to balance every random sampling of skills against all others. As long as a ship has a defined role, that role needs to be roughly balanced against the other roles, and the 1-2 builds that best enable the role best has to be balanced. The rest is just for flavor and fun. Odd builds that are outliers, "hybrids" as it were, need to be tuned properly so they don't become OP, but there really aren't any such builds in gsf. The closest things are T3 builds, and actually they are rather fun and different, not OP at all.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Fractalsponge

[Verain]

I'll leave aside all the snarky retorts this brings to mind and say: why?

 

Because those builds are meant for specific things. They are very deviant builds.

 

Shield to engine scouts actively throw away:

1)- A "2" button that makes them tanky (other shield options normally offer this)

2)- Much passive evasion

3)- Their shield energy, in order to run fast.

 

This is a ship that can largely boost forever. They can boost vastly longer, and for very high speeds. How much space can this ship cross compared to a bomber, gunship, strike, or flashfire? In a span of time long enough for boost to run out, it's way more than double. This is a specialized, niche choice, that needs to be punished in the general case. A game of all speed scouts would be unplayably awful, so the ship needs to be balanced to have powerful niche use, but not beyond that. That's not to say they nailed the balance perfectly, but this ship should absolutely get faced.

 

 

The charged plating imperium actively trades away:

1)- Any defense versus armor piercing weapons.

2)- A lot of defense versus shield piercing weapons.

In exchange for:

1)- Absolute immunity to mines of all flavors

2)- Nigh immunity versus any weapons that don't ignore armor.

 

This is a specialized build. If the game overly rewarded this deviant build, it would be very distracting- much worse than the charged plating bombers, which retain a number of strategic vulnerabilities, overly rewarding a reasonably maneuverable ship would make the meta pretty awful.

 

 

So yea, I'm very glad that these things get destroyed in the general case. The charged plating imperium is an excellent niche ship, but it needs to be niche and support, given what charged plating is right now. The speed scout can't be hunted down, can't be persued, and can be wherever it needs to be, so it also can't just be handed a free pass to slay the baseline ships either.

 

Why in blazes are you happy that the vast majority of builds, even the vast majority of ships, are underpowered and easily beaten using a few very common builds.

 

The game balance isn't that bad, but I'm definitely in favor of more generically useful builds. Specifically, I'm in favor of moderate to large strike fighter buffs, and small to moderate nerfs to scouts (especially scout burst) and even, if and only if scout nerfs happen, gunship nerfs.

 

But many components allow "rock paper scissors". Those sorts of components shouldn't be allowed to dominate without giving up stuff. And, mostly, they do. Nemarus looking at his scout component screen, seeing "wins versus railguns" and "doesn't do that", choosing "doesn't do that", and then making this thread about how, surprisingly, he didn't win versus railguns as hard as he wanted? Got no time for that.

 

As to the universal effectiveness of Slug, it's pretty obviously the default railgun and so it should work against everything.

 

Yea. And an anti-evasion railgun would actually be really interesting, but the lack of it is probably a design decision. It's probably a way of saying "by the way, a gunship really just doesn't have an option to land shots against you if you stack evasion". That's reasonable, but it's not the only way to do things.

[RickDagles]

I think the game is pretty nicely balanced as it is so I wouldn't want to change anything about the gunships. If you want to make the Strike better against Gunships it would be better to give them a bit of a buff. Maybe something simple like writing in code that would make any railgun do 10% less damage to T1 and T2 Strikes. Don't give the T3 any buffs. T3 repair drone deals with slug hull damage and powerdive deals with ion rail engine drain. Edited January 7, 2015 by RickDagles

[Verain]

One more thing: An Imperium with directionals (back for ion, front for slug) is already pretty much the best strike against gunships, and offers a lot of support with repair probes while being able to keep a gunship deroosted or even killed. This is a solid build against gunships, and one Nemarus deliberately did not pick, in exchange for a lot of extra defense against mines. It's also a pretty generically good build for the ship. So no, I'm not in favor of only a few ships being viable- I'm in favor of really odd choices not getting to kill default good builds for mostly free.

 

And the type 1 scout with rocket pods, distortion field, and laser cannon is a great ship against gunships too. Again, this was not what Nemarus picked.

 

These ships are good against gunships, the type 1 scout actually being a top pick- the only reason it isn't run all the time is that the type 2 scout offers a generally superior version of that exact same build. That's not a type 1 scout issue, except that it makes Nemarus think that he must immediately discount the extraordinary power the type 1 scout has, just because the type 2 is a couple percent better at that job.

 

 

The real problem isn't that you can make a weak niche build and lose to good builds. That's good design. The real problem is that your Starguard or Pike doesn't have a generically good build, that your Spearpoint doesn't bring the support level it probably should, that your Sledgehammer isn't strong enough in the meta. Not that you can pick two builds that both pick "suboptimal versus gunships" choices, and find that you ended up with two builds that are immune to entire classes of threats, but can still die to a generic choice like slug railgun.

 

Good. They should.

[RickDagles]

One more thing: An Imperium with directionals (back for ion, front for slug) is already pretty much the best strike against gunships, and offers a lot of support with repair probes while being able to keep a gunship deroosted or even killed. This is a solid build against gunships, and one Nemarus deliberately did not pick, in exchange for a lot of extra defense against mines.

 

It's amazing how well this works. I think that tanking like this in the Clarion is sometimes more useful for the team than the typical scout counters. Drak told me he only sees a place for this Clarion if there is premade of 8, what are your thoughts?

Edited January 7, 2015 by RickDagles

[Nemarus]

Oh Nemarus I thought about it more and the two ships you had talked about were a charged plating Imperium and your speed scout which I'm assuming is a shield to engine Blackbolt.

 

If you had 2 charged plating Imperiums and 3 Speed scouts that would definitely counter 2 Bombers and 3 Gunships.

 

The other thing you talked about was that the passive evasion on your Blackbolt was only 9% lower then if it had Distortion Field you're forgetting the really important active. This active lets you get on top of the Gunship without getting shot on the way, this is why Distortion Field is so important in the build to counter the Gunships as a Scout, once you have them on the run you don't need to worry about getting shot by him, and you don't need shield to engine to run down a Gunship either.

 

 

The two ships you were flying were indeed opposites of each, however so were the 2 types of ships you were trying to take down. As for Slug countering your Scout you are indeed hurting yourself vs Gunships by not taking the extra Evasion but even without it your ship should still counter Gunships just not as hard.

 

Yeah I think this is accurate.

 

I perhaps got a bit spoiled in my S2E Scout. I actually got in the habit of flying it back in 2.6 not to avoid Gunships, but to protect myself from packs of Flashfires that would hunt me relentlessly.

 

Note that I only fly this build in TDM. In Domination I tend to run more mainstream builds, often depending on the strategic needs of the match. And the S2E Scout (especially the one I use with MLC's and poor turning) is horribly suited for Domination.

 

But with the S2E Scout in TDM, I basically always control the range of engagement. I personally enjoy (and am better at) 4-6km shooting more than sub 2000m, so I generally work to engage targets at that range with Range Capacitor MLC's and Rocket Pods.

 

With S2E and Power Dive (with speed upgrade, not turning), if a pack of Flashfires (or one good ace like Tom) targets and attacks me, I enter flee mode and outrun them until I fall off their sensors or they give up. And during my escape, I pick up more power-ups and even score more kills if opportunities cross my path. At the very least, I drag the more stubborn pursuers to my allies, leaving them out of engine energy.

 

Over time, most pilots on my server learn I'm a very difficult target to pin down and usually not the best use of their time. Even a pilot like Tom, who would beat me in most duels, would do far more damage by ignoring me and feasting on slower targets.

 

Generally, this means I get attacked less, meaning I can stay on offense more. At times it can feel like I'm playing the PvE space game, where I'm just wandering around killing targets that are busy shooting at someone else, with only the occasional need to evade a pursuer. And honestly, that fleeing is fun!. Screaming around the map, twisting and rolling and Power Diving through tunnels and asteroids--it's like my own personal Star Tours. And having those two modes of operation (hit and fade), breaks up the monotony of TDM a bit, so I personally enjoy it more than flying a straight up Battlescout.

 

While I may occasionally joust (if I believe I have an advantage), I rarely ever stay in a protracted turning war with someone who is targeting me.

 

Here's the thing: of the deaths I suffer in this ship, the vast majority are from Gunships. This initially made me feel that Gunships are the "hard counter" to my S2E Scout. But the more I think about it, Gunships are about the only thing that can kill me and not have it be my choice. If I die to a Scout or Strike, it's because I got too greedy and lingered too long in a furball. If I die to a Bomber, it's because I chose to enter its deathzone (and usually that's a calculated decision when I have DO that will soon expire).

 

But Gunships can actually kill me without much warning, especially if I've left my own shields drained while sprinting around. This initially feels unfair to me, because of the old "I had no warning or chance to defend myself!" (whereas Scouts and Strikes usually give me enough warning to enter "flee mode"). And it also feels frustrating because half the time, the Gunship that kills me is some scrub who just respawned after I killed him.

 

But as Verain points out (with his usual grace and tact ) ... that is absolutely necessary in order to keep the S2E Scout balanced. As it stands, the S2E Scout (with TT and Wingman) can hunt all other Strikes and Scouts (even T2's) with little fear of death. And when I think about which pilots actually hinder my S2E Scout, they are Gunships who hunt me relentlessly. Evgeni and Aimbot especially

 

And even then, a plurality of my kills probably are also Gunships--I actively hunt them down because I know they are the only legitimate threat to me. And I can usually outflank the average / scrub Gunship and catch them unawares.

 

So yes, I think that my original post, at least with regard to Gunships being a "hard counter" to my S2E Scout, is wrong. While it's true that Gunships (and railgun sentries) consistently threaten my S2E Scout, it's not because it's easy for a Gunship to kill me (I move very fast and still have 24-34% Evasion). It's because it's almost impossible for anything else to deal with the S2E Scout on a consistent basis.

 

Gunship deaths, especially to those you aren't aware of, are always going to feel mildly frustrating. But think in this case they are necessary, and it puts the onus on me to personally suppress those Gunships or convince the rest of my team to, so that I can cut loose.

 

Does this mean the S2E Scout is overpowered? Overall I don't think so. It is terrible for Domination. But in TDM? I don't know. Reading the above, it feels a bit unfair. But I've yet to see any other pilot really use it to the same potential I do, even though I long ago educated my guild on how to build and fly it. And even on my best day, I still fall short of the top tier of Battlescout aces.

 

I do think Verain undersells its power a bit though. Then again, he flies with a very coordinated and skillful team, and thus probably doesn't need to "flee" focused pursuit as frequently as I do.

 

Anyway, as for Slug Railgun, I still think a more interesting meta could be created if Slug Railgun wasn't quite so good at Accuracy, Shield Pierce, AND Armor Pierce, and instead that utility was distributed between different railguns. But I don't think things are at a terrible balance point right now. And certainly Scouts (T2's and S2E's) need to be kept in check.

 

As for Imperium vs. Slug Railgun ... I think Charged Plating is just a very hard component to balance for. I think the Armor / Armor Piercing game would be much better if all Armor Piercing was partial (ignore 50% of armor) and no Armor offered 100% reduction. Also I think Charged Plating should have just had a low Shield capacity and no bleed through.

[Verain]

Drak told me he only sees a place for this Clarion if there is premade of 8, what are your thoughts?

 

While I agree it reaches its maximum potential there, I think it becomes worth picking a bit before that. If I queued into an 8v8 TDM where my team was playing like a girl bomber, three gunships and three scouts, the Clarion would be absolutely aces there.

 

The problem is that in MOST games, there are from one to six members of the team who can't hit anything and do not understand LOS. These ships will die: they are playing "the fast game" like a gunship or a scout will- "you die, or I do". Unlike a good player making this choice, the noob is really saying "I will die, and quickly". While a "fast" ship can defend these ships by killing their aggressors fast enough, a "slow" ship cannot either heal them or swap to their aggressors in time, ON TOP OF the fact that many of the bad players are "using up" the "strike spots".

 

 

So I'm much more happy about their prospects than Drako, but I don't disagree with the premise that the ship needs a lot of non-foodships in order for the support it offers to be solid. I just don't think the cutoff is a double premade.

[nyghtrunner]

But I've yet to see any other pilot really use it to the same potential I do, even though I long ago educated my guild on how to build and fly it. And even on my best day, I still fall short of the top tier of Battlescout aces.

I've seen 1 or 2 (yes, I've flown with you a few times, at least twice when you were in the bb, but I don't think you would know me), but it's extremely rare to see someone who can truly handle a T1. And one of the 2 I'm thinking of doesn't really even fly any more.

 

I think the biggest reason most people stay away from it is that it's something of a specialized build, but more so, it actively punishes you if you don't know how to aim all that well. BLCs on a T2 are a lot more forgiving, so they are easier to use by the less skilled while they are less skilled. Later, when they have learned to aim, they're already set in their ways (Or just think it's not a good ship). It's pure speculation on my part, but I feel like it makes some sense, anyway.

 

Another possibility is the bad memories of having the BB/Nova with RFLs as a starter ship. I think a lot of people just assume it's not a very good ship. In the right hands, though, they can be a handful. And as you note, if you're not in a similar build, it's rather pointless to chase you.

[Ryuku-sama]

I've seen 1 or 2 (yes, I've flown with you a few times, at least twice when you were in the bb, but I don't think you would know me), but it's extremely rare to see someone who can truly handle a T1. And one of the 2 I'm thinking of doesn't really even fly any more.

 

I think the biggest reason most people stay away from it is that it's something of a specialized build, but more so, it actively punishes you if you don't know how to aim all that well. BLCs on a T2 are a lot more forgiving, so they are easier to use by the less skilled while they are less skilled. Later, when they have learned to aim, they're already set in their ways (Or just think it's not a good ship). It's pure speculation on my part, but I feel like it makes some sense, anyway.

 

Another possibility is the bad memories of having the BB/Nova with RFLs as a starter ship. I think a lot of people just assume it's not a very good ship. In the right hands, though, they can be a handful. And as you note, if you're not in a similar build, it's rather pointless to chase you.

 

I thought I was your friend *Go cry in a corner*

[nyghtrunner]

I thought I was your friend *Go cry in a corner*

I thought so too! Did I miss something?! I was responding to Nemarus.

 

KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ryuku-sama]

I thought so too! Did I miss something?! I was responding to Nemarus.

 

KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

T1 Scout is my main ship... ANd you said the two pilots good in a Nova.. One not playing a lot anymore.... Nemmy still plays a lot.. And I play way tooo much!!

[nyghtrunner]

T1 Scout is my main ship... ANd you said the two pilots good in a Nova.. One not playing a lot anymore.... Nemmy still plays a lot.. And I play way tooo much!!

Yes. But also take note of the way I said it in terms of replying. I was saying I know 1-2 who fly that blackbolt build as well as Nem. So that means, including Nem, there are 2-3 I know of who are a cut above when it comes to flying the speed scout.

[Ryuku-sama]

Yes. But also take note of the way I said it in terms of replying. I was saying I know 1-2 who fly that blackbolt build as well as Nem. So that means, including Nem, there are 2-3 I know of who are a cut above when it comes to flying the speed scout.

 

lol. Fair point Now that I have my new mouse I expect you to pass by JCov tomorrow... I'll be there all day.

[nyghtrunner]

Raid at 9EST, but should be flying between work and raid time. Edited January 7, 2015 by nyghtrunner

[Drakkolich]

Nemarus I think I'm starting to see why you like that build. I often have somewhere to run too, to get anyone chasing me off me. But you don't you just have to keep running until they give up. You're build is definitely better suited for that exact experience.

 

I do the same things when fighting another Scout and my cooldowns aren't up, I just use my Barrel roll which many other scouts don't use to give me that speed edge you are talking about. It lets me get to my team so they can peel for me. Or it lets me kite long enough to get my cooldowns back to turn around and kill him. The reason I don't like your build is that you can never turn around on anyone, you're always at a disadvantage.

 

Anyways I'm glad you see that you are gaining the ability to outrun all Strikes and Scouts but are giving up anti Railgun tech as well as defensive passives/actives in combat.

[blade_mercurial]

Hey Shayd

 

I've been running your 'Lancer Build' a lot lately. I've gotten pretty good at it. 20+ kills is not uncommon for me now. However, its true that it does not deal well against gunship heavy enemy teams. In fact, I find it better to switch to a T2 scout if there are 4+ gunships. Even 3 good gunships counters the lancer pretty well. 2 or less and I find it does okay though. So all in all, I think that's pretty good.

 

I think everyone would agree that Strikes are not in a good place and something to help them, particularly against gunships would be nice...

 

My 2 cents

 

- Sevaerian

[blade_mercurial]

The reason I don't like your build is that you can never turn around on anyone, you're always at a disadvantage.

 

That's not entirely true - you can face anyone down that does not have the ability to put out good damage beyond 5000m. So Quads + Pods is dangerous to you, but any other scout build is easy pickings if you pop TT + Wingman and start hitting with pods at max distance and with lasers @ 5750m. Even if they manage to avoid you, you boost by them and can turn and do it again before your cooldowns run out. And if they turn to flee, well that puts them exactly where you want them, playing to the strengths of the build.

 

I'm not saying it hard counters scouts per se, just that its ability to kill scouts depends on range (unlike most other scout builds).

[Drakkolich]

That's not entirely true - you can face anyone down that does not have the ability to put out good damage beyond 5000m. So Quads + Pods is dangerous to you, but any other scout build is easy pickings if you pop TT + Wingman and start hitting with pods at max distance and with lasers @ 5750m. Even if they manage to avoid you, you boost by them and can turn and do it again before your cooldowns run out. And if they turn to flee, well that puts them exactly where you want them, playing to the strengths of the build.

 

I'm not saying it hard counters scouts per se, just that its ability to kill scouts depends on range (unlike most other scout builds).

 

I meant once they are chasing you, which is what Nemarus was talking about. He was saying he can outrun any other Scout/Strike. You can do that with a Barrel roll Sting/Flashfire build and then turn on them once you have cooldowns back up. If you tried to turn on a Sting/Flashfire you would be at a disadvantage as that Sting/Flashfire would still have Distortion Field and possibly even Retro thrusters depending on build.

 

I'm not saying you can't win, I'm saying you'll be at a disadvantage build wise.

[tommmsunb]

That's not entirely true - you can face anyone down that does not have the ability to put out good damage beyond 5000m. So Quads + Pods is dangerous to you, but any other scout build is easy pickings if you pop TT + Wingman and start hitting with pods at max distance and with lasers @ 5750m. Even if they manage to avoid you, you boost by them and can turn and do it again before your cooldowns run out. And if they turn to flee, well that puts them exactly where you want them, playing to the strengths of the build.

 

I'm not saying it hard counters scouts per se, just that its ability to kill scouts depends on range (unlike most other scout builds).

 

The problem is is that you're seldom able to control being at far range when you're turning around. This is why quads/pods is at a disadvantage to burst scouts.

[blade_mercurial]

If you tried to turn on a Sting/Flashfire you would be at a disadvantage as that Sting/Flashfire would still have Distortion Field and possibly even Retro thrusters depending on build.

 

I'm not saying you can't win, I'm saying you'll be at a disadvantage build wise.

 

But getting into turning dogfight vs T2 scout is bad in any other ship, so while yes that's technically a disadvantage, its easy to avoid and engage at a favorable time thanks to higher speed/stamina. Also can control engagement range easily too. Its only a disadvantage when the faster ship plays poorly, or so it seems to me...

[blade_mercurial]

The problem is is that you're seldom able to control being at far range when you're turning around. This is why quads/pods is at a disadvantage to burst scouts.

 

Why? You just turn around far away. You're faster so you can choose range when to turn to face or run away. I find turning around 12km or so allows me to get most scouts in sights (even boosting @ me) around 7km - enough time to fire pods, pop cooldowns, even hit 1 or 2x with lasers before they get less than 4km and then I run away and repeat, so BLC never gets good shots....

[Drakkolich]

I actually got to fly vs Nemarus' Speed Scout build tonight and I had some very interesting observations.

 

First of all I noticed he never really tried to attack me, I don't know if this was intentional or he just didn't end up on me at any point. I was usually the one chasing him, not once did I ever get "outrun" this is probably due to the fact that I run Barrel roll and was able to use that to catch up once he took off. The other thing was that every time I locked a Cluster he had to Power dive it, which gave me time to get into position for a kill.

 

Secondly and I think my most important observation was how much easier this type of Scout was to peel off my teammate. I was Duo Queue ing with Verain which was playing Gunship, all I had to do was lock a Cluster and call out that he Power dived then Verain would line up a shot. This event would either force Nemarus to flee from his attack on Verain and give Verain another shot at him while running or he would just eat my next cluster and usually die.

 

 

 

The fact that this build is easier to peel had never really crossed my mind. This could be another reason it is weaker vs Gunships, not necessarily because the Gunships themselves are killing the Scout but because the Scout can't keep up the aggression needed to stop the Gunship from shooting. Power Dives low cooldown is great for evading many missiles but is pretty poor at keep up the aggression on a Gunship.

 

 

As for Blade_mercurials comment on you just get 12km away and turn around this never even got close to happening. If you're talking about flying vs a Retro Sting/Flashfire those usually use Quads/Pods and you wouldn't be any better off fighting at 5k vs them, you would still be at a disadvantage.