Speed Scout and Charged Plating Imperium -> both hard countered by Gunship

[Nemarus]

This isn't a rant thread or anything. Just some food for discussion.

 

This morning I was in a Lost Shipyards TDM. At first I was in my usual Speed Blackbolt. I was doing okay, but it was the third TDM in a row against the same batch of opponents, and they had learned to focus me pretty hard with their Gunships.

 

I saw that a pair of Bombers were frustrating the rest of my team, so I switched to my Charged Plating Imperium, which needed requisition on this alt anyway.

 

I spent a few minutes killing their Bombers over and over again in their asteroid nests, and it was satisfying. But then their Bombers spawned on the other side of the map. I started working my way there (with Power Dive), but as soon as I left the asteroid nest, their Gunships once again tore me up.

 

Here's where I had an unfortunate revelation: I just flew two ships which could not be more opposite--one built for speed and interception, but fragile; and one built for tankiness and mineclearing. Yet in both cases, the Slug Railgun was a hard counter against me.

 

Obviously no discussion about balance can be driven purely by the relationship between a particular trio of ships and builds. But in this particular case, it just struck me as rather absurd that one weapon hard countered two very different, very specialized builds.

 

I'm not saying this needs to be "fixed" or anything. I'm just saying it's something worth thinking about. Should two very specialized builds, on two very particular variants, utterly opposite in purpose and style, both be hard countered by the default Gunship weapon, available on every Gunship variant and build? Moreover weapon that can be fired from 15km out?

 

I'm fine with Gunships having a counter for different specialized ships. I think all ship types, if built for it, should have some ability to counter a particular specialist. It just seems to me like the railgun used to counter a speed Scout should be a different railgun than is used to counter a tank Strike.

 

Accuracy, Armor Piercing, and Damage are all knobs which you could use to make a variety of specailized railguns--some for killing evaders, some for killing shield tanks, some for killing hull tanks, some for all-around work, some for utility, etc. But as it stands, the Slug Railgun is best at everything. Sure, Ion Railgun has its uses, but would many Gunships take it if it meant they couldn't take Slug? Oh what a world that would be...

Edited January 6, 2015 by Nemarus

[Verain]

A lot of bad builds are countered by good builds. That's why the good builds are good.

 

Try a Type 2 Scout with distortion field.

 

 

 

You know this, of course. But lemme say: I'm very glad that neither of these two niche support builds easily soloes the more common builds.

 

 

"I just flew two ships which could not be more opposite--one built for speed and interception, but fragile; and one built for tankiness and mineclearing. Yet in both cases, the Slug Railgun was a hard counter against me. "

 

 

You didn't, though. You played two ships where you purposefully tank your evasion. One you throw away evasion for speed and maneuverability, which you were not able to turn into increased survivability. The other throws away evasion for a specialized hull that ignores mines.

 

" Should two very specialized builds, on two very particular variants, utterly opposite in purpose and style, both be hard countered by the default Gunship weapon, available on every Gunship variant and build? "

 

Yes, absolutely and without question. You already have an answer to railguns, you just picked everything but that.

[tommmsunb]

A lot of bad players are countered by good players. That's why the good players are good.

Your previous statement was correct but I feel like in the context of this post this is more correct.

[Nemarus]

Your previous statement was correct but I feel like in the context of this post this is more correct.

 

The first two of these three TDM's, I had 23 and 27 kills. In the second match I had more kills than both the enemy team and my team. Not record performances, and I'm not you, but I feel confident in saying I was "good" and the other pilots were not. Even in the third match in question, I topped the leaderboards in damage, assists, and kills.

 

Pilot skill was not a factor here.

 

But when you've got three Gunships all focusing you immediately after they spawn (because I was putting pressure on their spawn), and there's no cover, then any Scout--even one with Distortion Field--is going to die some.

 

Despite all of your skill Tom (which I happily acknowledge as superior to my own), both Yaegren and I kill you plenty of times in our Gunships, because there's nothing you or anyone can do about being focused like that, except to kill more than you are being killed.

 

By no means were the Gunships shutting me down. Each life of my Scout was profitable. But as I wasn't going to set any records that match, I decided to fly something different for the second half.

 

To Verain's point, my speed Scout still has 24% Evasion. I'd hardly call that "tanking" Evasion--that's a bit hyperbolic. Am I using Distortion Field and RI? No. But 24% is the second highest passive Evasion that can be achieved on any build of any ship. And in TDM, I often use my extra speed to get Engine Powerups, which give me 34% passive Evasion (to say nothing of DO's).

 

But no, when I'm pressing on a losing team's spawn, away from cover and power-ups, I am slightly more vulnerable to Gunships than a Battlescout, sure. That's fine.

 

But Verain, you make it sound like any ship with less than 33% Evasion deserves to be easy prey for all Slug Railguns, and that there should exist no other way to counter. Do you really believe that? Because only one build in the entire game can achieve 33% passive Evasion.

 

I should think that, while DF is certainly one great way to defend against a Slug Railgun, there needs to be at least one other. On a speed Scout, it's by flanking and using cover (barring the situation I found myself in, where there was new cover and Gunships I killed immediately spawned with me in their range).

 

But what are Strikes to do? They can't get anywhere near enough Evasion. They can't close quickly. Their shields get pierced. Their armor gets pierced. Charged Plating is useless. The most they can do is stack hull hit points, and a T1 can't even do that. And I'm not even talking about Ion Railgun. I'm just talking about Slug.

 

Let's imagine, for a moment, that Slug had to choose between bonus Shield Piercing or Armor Piercing.

 

A Gunship that chooses Armor Piercing is going to be better against CP Strikes and Bombers. A Gunship that chooses Shield Piercing is going to be better against Scouts, Directional Strikes and Overcharge Bombers.

 

And though Evasion would still work equally well against both types of Slug, other thicker shield types (S2E, Directional) on Scouts would become slightly more viable, as they would at least provide extra protection against Gunships who opt for Armor Piercing Slugs (instead of Shield Piercing).

 

It would also shake up the meta on Gunship duels, which would be welcome.

 

Anyway, I was hoping you guys were up for a respectful discussion.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Nemarus

[Fractalsponge]

Am I hearing this right - their gunships were focusing you? Because if it was 2+ v1, then absolutely you deserved to lose regardless of what you were running. It's frustrating, but it's not a sign that the meta is broken.

[SammyGStatus]

I should think that, while DF is certainly one great way to defend against a Slug Railgun, there needs to be at least one other. On a speed Scout, it's by flanking and using cover (barring the situation I found myself in, where there was new cover and Gunships I killed immediately spawned with me in their range).

 

RNG is your second. As well as general maneuvering supremacy, boosting supremacy, tt can boost evasion, etc. The ship choice also matters, but the role of the t1 isn't as clearly defined as the t2

[Nemarus]

Am I hearing this right - their gunships were focusing you? Because if it was 2+ v1, then absolutely you deserved to lose regardless of what you were running. It's frustrating, but it's not a sign that the meta is broken.

 

Touche.

 

Still, I do wish Slug's omni-utility was divided up amongst 2 or 3 different railguns. It'd be great if Plasma were the tool to use against CP/Armor.

[Delta_V]

Touche.

 

Still, I do wish Slug's omni-utility was divided up amongst 2 or 3 different railguns. It'd be great if Plasma were the tool to use against CP/Armor.

 

In the past, I have suggested something like this. Currently, the other ship types specialize in Evasion (Scouts), Shields (Strikes), and Hull + Damage Reduction (Bombers).

 

I would take Plasma, give it 50% armor ignore baseline and 50% in an upgrade, give it a slight bonus to hull damage, but make it the least accurate and worst tracking railgun. Oh, and make the DOT stack up to three times. This would make it the best against bombers, since it does the most raw damage and against bombers, the lower accuracy and worse tracking penalties wouldn't be much of concern. But against Scouts, you'd have a tough time landing hits, and against Strikes, they might be able to maneuver enough to give you trouble.

 

I'd leave Ion mostly as it is, but slightly increase its shield damage while toning down the CC ability. It would be the best at burning through shields, which would make it the best choice for dealing with Strikes.

 

Finally, take Slug and remove its Armor Ignore and slightly reduce its damage, but let it keep its Shield Piercing. In return, give it the best accuracy and lowest tracking penalties. This would make it the best at actually landing hits against Scouts, while the lower damage would make it less effective against Strikes and Bombers.

 

 

With those changes, you would then have an anti-evasion weapon in Slug, Ion would be the anti-shield weapon, and Plasma fills the role of anti-armor.

[SammyGStatus]

The anti-evasion slug would be worthless if you did that though. You want to remove armor ignore and lower damage. Scouts still can drop someone in subsecond time. The ability to survive a slug is already there (only a crit ends the scout), but the fact that the scout has more health is not the way to go with this

[Delta_V]

The anti-evasion slug would be worthless if you did that though. You want to remove armor ignore and lower damage. Scouts still can drop someone in subsecond time. The ability to survive a slug is already there (only a crit ends the scout), but the fact that the scout has more health is not the way to go with this

 

Right now, against a full health Scout, it takes two hits, or one crit, to bring them down. You could slightly reduce the damage without changing that, but it would reduce Slug's effectiveness against tougher targets. Sure, the second shot might need to be closer to fully charged, but wouldn't that be a fair price to pay for having a higher chance of hitting them in the first place? I know you have complained in the past about missing perfectly aimed shots against Scouts, with this change, that would be less likely.

[tunewalker]

Guys lets face it, I dont know why any one makes "balance suggestion" posts any more. Bioware hasnt done anything balance related with GSF for a long time now, and we ALL know how the community at large will look at it.

 

 

"nerf/ Buff this thing" always turns into "waaah but if you do that ship x that is my favorite ship will be worthless"

 

Honestly you can just replace Ship x with Gunship or Battle Scout, its always the same. Even those who SAY they want balance, they arent willing to sacrifice anything to achieve it. If nothing is sacrificed nothing is gained, and it doesnt matter what Bioware does, some will be happy, some will be sad, and some will rage. Even if they do nothing, when you realize that, its no wonder they have opted for nothing.... its cheaper and gets them the same result.

Edited January 6, 2015 by tunewalker

[Fractalsponge]

I for one would be happy if passive evasion was gone and all evasion went into active abilities. It would be a very ambush heavy meta, but I could live with that.

[SammyGStatus]

Right now, against a full health Scout, it takes two hits, or one crit, to bring them down. You could slightly reduce the damage without changing that, but it would reduce Slug's effectiveness against tougher targets. Sure, the second shot might need to be closer to fully charged, but wouldn't that be a fair price to pay for having a higher chance of hitting them in the first place? I know you have complained in the past about missing perfectly aimed shots against Scouts, with this change, that would be less likely.

 

If it was a guaranteed hit, both times, and reduced the charge time even at sub 500m. The time to charge the first shot to full is about the amount of time it would take for a scout to close the distance from 15k (depending on the build, but even only 1 second more tops). Otherwise, it still doesn't change the fact that a scout can still evade by flying abilities provided by the class of ship and subsecond zerg.

 

Seriously, plasma should be the infinite accuracy weapon - it already reduces evasion I believe

[Costello]

Just had a match where the gunship kept hiding behind his capital ship turrets soon as anyone got close he would run. Then while they are flying back he can snipe them defended by his turrets.

 

Of course his team lost as he was doing nothing to capture the satellites but the play highlights there is no reasonable counter. No other ship has this option and it is incredibly dull to have someone taking free shots (which for a fully upgraded shot isn't easily ignored) that as soon as you get close can hide and there is nothing you can do about it. As even taking your own gunship to take him out while his hiding leaves you exposed sitting meters away from where they will respawn.

[Fractalsponge]

If it was a guaranteed hit, both times, and reduced the charge time even at sub 500m. The time to charge the first shot to full is about the amount of time it would take for a scout to close the distance from 15k (depending on the build, but even only 1 second more tops). Otherwise, it still doesn't change the fact that a scout can still evade by flying abilities provided by the class of ship and subsecond zerg.

 

Seriously, plasma should be the infinite accuracy weapon - it already reduces evasion I believe

 

Infinite accuracy plasma idea - remove the base damage, make it incredibly accurate with spammable charge time, and make the dot stack several times, with stacking DR and evasion debuffs. That'd be hilarious. A pure dot weapon with no burst potential, but a slow (and eventually certain) killer of scouts and armored targets.

[Nemarus]

Infinite accuracy plasma idea - remove the base damage, make it incredibly accurate with spammable charge time, and make the dot stack several times, with stacking DR and evasion debuffs. That'd be hilarious. A pure dot weapon with no burst potential, but a slow (and eventually certain) killer of scouts and armored targets.

 

What do you mean by "spammable charge time"? I would think that you'd just make the DOT magnitude correlate with the charge time. Allow DOT stacking, but only to a point (I'd say 3). That still gives motivation to charge up longer, so that each of your 3 stacked DOT's is as big as you want to risk making it.

 

In a given period of time, you could either spam low-charge DOT's, just to try and land your 3 stacks. There'd be low risk of time wasting, but only moderate guaranteed damage (good for Scouts). Or you could fully charge three DOT's, with a higher risk of missing (and thus wasting time), but a higher reward of significant damage over time (better for slower, armored targets).

 

That'd be a very fun and cool weapon I think. And it'd give some love to the T2 Gunship.

[Drakkolich]

I feel like everyone is asking the wrong questions when it comes to what ship to I counter these ships with.

 

You found yourself in a situation where from what it sounds you were in a Deathmatch vs 2-3 Bombers and atleast 3 Gunships.

 

You're asking what ship do I use to combat this set of circumstances and the answer is nothing.

The correct question is what 5 ships counter these 5 ships, because this is how the game is balanced. It's not balanced for the one Ace fighting off 5 pretty good players.

 

In the current meta the correct counter to a team that's playing the Bomber/Gunship strategy (assuming the Gunships are piled on top of the Bombers) is to just field all Gunships. I know that sounds silly and is also why the Bomber/Gunship strategy is so popular. A lot of players seem to think that playing a Gunship is being the badguy so they don't want to play one to counter this strategy.

 

If their team has 3-4 Bombers sitting on top of 4-5 Gunships, and you're team has 8 Gunships you always win that fight, because the Bombers are essentially doing nothing.

 

Now I know the next question is well that's dumb because nothing beats 8 Gunships, actually there are 2 strategies that do. You can field 4 Evasion Scouts + 4 Gunships or just 8 Evasion Scouts work too. I prefer the 4 and 4 strategy myself as what happens is the Gunships take so long to take out those Evasion Scouts your teams Gunships murder the other team.

 

This is how the meta is at the moment, it's very fluid. I recently played a game with some new friends I made on the Shadowlands server where the enemy fielded 4 Scouts and 4 Bombers. So I told my team to swap to Gunships and Bombers and the scoreboard changed from tied to we had a 20 point lead. They realized their mistake so they swaped to 6 Gunships, which I told our Bombers to Hop on Scouts, they did and we continued to gain more points.

 

These are the counters everyone should be talking about. We have discussed all the 1v1 scenario's to death.

[Fractalsponge]

What do you mean by "spammable charge time"? I would think that you'd just make the DOT magnitude correlate with the charge time. Allow DOT stacking, but only to a point (I'd say 3). That still gives motivation to charge up longer, so that each of your 3 stacked DOT's is as big as you want to risk making it.

 

In a given period of time, you could either spam low-charge DOT's, just to try and land your 3 stacks. There'd be low risk of time wasting, but only moderate guaranteed damage (good for Scouts). Or you could fully charge three DOT's, with a higher risk of missing (and thus wasting time), but a higher reward of significant damage over time (better for slower, armored targets).

 

That'd be a very fun and cool weapon I think. And it'd give some love to the T2 Gunship.

 

I mean just so you could fire it very quickly with minimal downtime to spread your DOTs everywhere, or land them on your focused target quickly. The charge time can affect magnitude or duration, I suppose. The accuracy boost on the weapon needs to be really substantial, because if you can't apply the dot stack the weapon is useless, whereas every slug hit is doing damage, even if it doesn't happen as often as you'd like. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the passive boost should be on the order of 25%, coupled with the fact that the stacks would add some level of -evasion like the current implementation (couldn't be 10% like now if it stacks 3x, maybe 5%?, so +25% accuracy baseline with -15% evasion at 3 stacks). That with wingman on top would negate the passive but not all of the active evasion of scouts. Dfield+RI (+42% evasion) would still give a scout the same chance of being hit by followup fire as a passive 33% scout without cooldowns.

[Fractalsponge]

Oh, and why you don't come visit imperial side any more drak?

[Drakkolich]

Oh, and why you don't come visit imperial side any more drak?

 

In all honesty because some of the guys you fly with while I'm playing pub have come over and gloated that they beat me/whoever I'm playing with. I've been trying to get some half decent ships to fight those players with. It's pretty frustrating to be in a 60k Scout and 10k Bomber and then have some of the guys you play with come say that stuff.

 

The other reason is we have been having some really good games fighting vs you guys and I've been having fun.

 

I might come hang out with you guys though.

[SammyGStatus]

In all honesty because some of the guys you fly with while I'm playing pub have come over and gloated that they beat me/whoever I'm playing with. I've been trying to get some half decent ships to fight those players with. It's pretty frustrating to be in a 60k Scout and 10k Bomber and then have some of the guys you play with come say that stuff.

 

The other reason is we have been having some really good games fighting vs you guys and I've been having fun.

 

I might come hang out with you guys though.

 

Party @ Shadowlands tn?

[tommmsunb]

In all honesty because some of the guys you fly with while I'm playing pub have come over and gloated that they beat me/whoever I'm playing with. I've been trying to get some half decent ships to fight those players with. It's pretty frustrating to be in a 60k Scout and 10k Bomber and then have some of the guys you play with come say that stuff.

 

The other reason is we have been having some really good games fighting vs you guys and I've been having fun.

 

I might come hang out with you guys though.

 

I've had a similar experience. I was solo queueing and ended up with a team of new players against that group and some of those guys did the same thing. I get called a one-ship wonder a lot. Which is neat I suppose.

[Fractalsponge]

Well you are pretty wonderful in that ship tomm

[Drakkolich]

Oh Nemarus I thought about it more and the two ships you had talked about were a charged plating Imperium and your speed scout which I'm assuming is a shield to engine Blackbolt.

 

If you had 2 charged plating Imperiums and 3 Speed scouts that would definitely counter 2 Bombers and 3 Gunships.

 

The other thing you talked about was that the passive evasion on your Blackbolt was only 9% lower then if it had Distortion Field you're forgetting the really important active. This active lets you get on top of the Gunship without getting shot on the way, this is why Distortion Field is so important in the build to counter the Gunships as a Scout, once you have them on the run you don't need to worry about getting shot by him, and you don't need shield to engine to run down a Gunship either.

 

 

The two ships you were flying were indeed opposites of each, however so were the 2 types of ships you were trying to take down. As for Slug countering your Scout you are indeed hurting yourself vs Gunships by not taking the extra Evasion but even without it your ship should still counter Gunships just not as hard.

[MiaowZedong]

But lemme say: I'm very glad that neither of these two niche support builds easily soloes the more common builds.

I'll leave aside all the snarky retorts this brings to mind and say: why?

 

Why in blazes are you happy that the vast majority of builds, even the vast majority of ships, are underpowered and easily beaten using a few very common builds. By all accounts your group could adapt pretty well to a meta shift and probably thrive if the game was less dumb and more complex, so why are you dead set against it?

 

Oh Nemarus I thought about it more and the two ships you had talked about were a charged plating Imperium and your speed scout which I'm assuming is a shield to engine Blackbolt.

 

If you had 2 charged plating Imperiums and 3 Speed scouts that would definitely counter 2 Bombers and 3 Gunships.

Honestly, I think Shayd's making a mountain out of a molehill here. The Slug Railgun doesn't even, IMO particularly counter his scout: it's effective against it, yes, and the range makes it harder to keep track of gunships within engagement range (and no doubt easier for bad teams to focus fire). Range, however, is the gunship's main thing and not exclusive to any one of the railguns. If I wanted a weapon that "hard countered" both Charped Plating and a STE Blackbolt, I'd take BLC: Armour Penetration and huge arcs that make it easier to hit someone flying fast.

 

As to the universal effectiveness of Slug, it's pretty obviously the default railgun and so it should work against everything. Frankly it's the kind of common sense I wish the devs had applied to more of the game. The armour penetration is an issue but it's not with Slugs, it's with how the game handles damage resistance, and it would sure be great if Plasma had a place, and I'd really back a nerf to Ion, but Slug is IMO fine. It's also the only railgun available to the T3 gunship, so if it becomes ineffective against certain ships the T3 takes a huge nerf.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MiaowZedong