Vengeance, Vengeance everywhere.

[Andrew_Past]

Focus does not suck. It is superior in 1v1 and RWZ scenarios. Vengeance does well in WZ by spreading dots and getting higher numbers. That does not win warzones though. All are viable but focus is far more competitive. Button bloat is a joke, no mobility is very wrong and everything else said is very biased.

 

Vengeance/vigilance users spread their ideologies like Christians. Very close mindedly. Focus can be very strong. It is very underrated. Try it in ranked with min/maxed 174 pvp gear. I

 

Vigilance is better at 1v1s than Focus due to Unremitting, Commanding Awe, and better target control. I do a fair amount of 1v1s, and I haven't lost against Focus as Vigilance yet. I also kill shadows, ops, and sorcs easier a Vigilance as well. The burst is nice, but is easier to shut down, and survivability is still noticably lower than Vigilance.

 

In ranked, both work fine. In group ranked I play both, depending on group. Focus for just all out burst, Vigilance for good burst and group pressure in between burst windows.

[waterboytkd]

Vigilance is better at 1v1s than Focus due to Unremitting, Commanding Awe, and better target control. I do a fair amount of 1v1s, and I haven't lost against Focus as Vigilance yet. I also kill shadows, ops, and sorcs easier a Vigilance as well. The burst is nice, but is easier to shut down, and survivability is still noticably lower than Vigilance.

 

In ranked, both work fine. In group ranked I play both, depending on group. Focus for just all out burst, Vigilance for good burst and group pressure in between burst windows.

 

Pretty spot on here. I'd only like to add: skill is the biggest determining factor in the 1v1 Vengeance vs Rage. I've only met one Vigilance player on my server so far that, when I 1v1ed, it was brutal. The first time, I got destroyed. He did everything right. Every time after that, I did better, but still lost.

 

Every other Vengeance/Vigilance I've gone up against with Focus/Rage has been fairly easy. But after that thrashing, I realized, most don't play the spec to its fullest.

 

I know there's a lot of talk of Juggs being in the FotM bracket, and it gets accusations of faceroll quality, but in my experience, it's actually fairly skill-intensive to play.

[Neulwen]

AFAIK, Marauders do more dmg (Furious Strike), but have less mobility. They have heroic root break on short CD that impairs dmg whilst juggernauts have heroic root immunity on a long CD that spends a DCD. Thus I wouldn't say the difference is huge for PvP.

 

On the original topic, I also find Rage more fun to play than Vengeance, but that's just preference. Though Vengeance does have better survivability and less issues with roots and stuns. Plus DoT spreading, which I fundamentally dislike, but, ofc, it's nothing close to Hatred.

[Elyxin]

Been playing Vengeance since early release, And I'll continue playing it.

 

But now...for the first time, I'm interested in Rage. I leveled a rage jugg early in the game, didn't appeal to me. the new rage sounds interesting.

 

But I played Vengeance even back when people laughed at you for it. now it's the FotM. Had to happen sometime. My hopes is they get that out of the way quick so all the FotM players can go somewhere else.

 

Doesn't make it bad.

[Andrew_Past]

AFAIK, Marauders do more dmg (Furious Strike).

 

I doubt that. All Guardians have a passive 20% extra damage with melee attacks from Single Saber Mastery. That makes up for not having an off-hand hit.

[Kitsanth]

I would honestly say that the reason you don't see much Rage is because the damage sucks next to vengeance until you get good gear. It is pretty much based on getting your bonus damage as high as possible, which is very hard to achieve without min-maxing your gear. Vengeance does okay with all the crit and alacrity on the one dps jugg set. Its damage isn't based solely on your big attacks. Like until I had about 1100 bonus melee damage and 1600 force bonus, I could never do more overall damage than a good vengeance in regs. That's like stacking 2k power, which is hard to achieve.

[DjSnazzyduds]

Once you've had a taste of Vengeful Slam, you can never... go back.

 

I told myself as I leveled my Juggernaut , that I would switch back to Rage once I got to 57 for Furious Strikes, considering Rage has quite a bit of downtime without it. I love Vengeance but Rage has a more bursty play style I enjoy.

 

But then I hit 57... and I used Vengeful Slam... I can't go back. Why would I? I can't.... I just can't... lol. It's so strong and it looks SO GOD DAMN BAD ***.

[adproduction]

I would honestly say that the reason you don't see much Rage is because the damage sucks next to vengeance until you get good gear. It is pretty much based on getting your bonus damage as high as possible, which is very hard to achieve without min-maxing your gear. Vengeance does okay with all the crit and alacrity on the one dps jugg set. Its damage isn't based solely on your big attacks. Like until I had about 1100 bonus melee damage and 1600 force bonus, I could never do more overall damage than a good vengeance in regs. That's like stacking 2k power, which is hard to achieve.

 

Rage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B5qwsZxGk8\

Lowest was 1100 and Highest was 8700ish (near 9000)

 

Vigilance (Same as Vengeance)

Lowest 1500 and highest 7500ish (near 8000)

 

Rage can't keep the damage up due to being a one trick pony while Vengeance can due to rage and specialization in single target damage. Plus Vengeance has DOTs and it not a one trick pony. Rage is all about Armor Penetration through Force based abilities, Critical Hits, and using force abilities to a group. Vengeance is about Raw physical damage, light saber abilities, and DOTs to a single target. Rage generate less focus/rage than Vengeance players as they use Shien, which generates a lot of focus when hitting and being hit.

 

1 on 1 a vengeance will eat you up and flat out beat a rage, but a rage can do devastating damage to unsuspecting opponents. Rage may do massive damage to group, but vengeance can keep the group damage over and over again. Combine with the sweep strikes, you can do up to 50% more damage and with smash, you can spread the love like a bad case of herpes.

Edited January 26, 2015 by adproduction

[Alister]

Rage is the only spec for juggs now to me.... what u call button bloat i call takes more skill to be good with. more classes should be like rage spec. But then again im sure more ppl will ***** bc its to hard bc they have to hit more than 4 buttons.

 

Newsflash: because Rage Juggernauts suck. The class has been completely gimped. Button bloat, no survivability, no effective mobility skills, the list goes on.

 

Seriously, if someone is offered the choice between **** and chocolate, most people are going to pick chocolate.

[Kitsanth]

Rage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B5qwsZxGk8\

Lowest was 1100 and Highest was 8700ish (near 9000)

 

Vigilance (Same as Vengeance)

Lowest 1500 and highest 7500ish (near 8000)

 

Rage can't keep the damage up due to being a one trick pony while Vengeance can due to rage and specialization in single target damage. Plus Vengeance has DOTs and it not a one trick pony. Rage is all about Armor Penetration through Force based abilities, Critical Hits, and using force abilities to a group. Vengeance is about Raw physical damage, light saber abilities, and DOTs to a single target. Rage generate less focus/rage than Vengeance players as they use Shien, which generates a lot of focus when hitting and being hit.

 

1 on 1 a vengeance will eat you up and flat out beat a rage, but a rage can do devastating damage to unsuspecting opponents. Rage may do massive damage to group, but vengeance can keep the group damage over and over again. Combine with the sweep strikes, you can do up to 50% more damage and with smash, you can spread the love like a bad case of herpes.

Those videos are completely irrelevant at this point, as they have changed both specs considerably since 3.0. Also, I'd like to know what you meant by rage doing massive damage to groups. It's completely single target these days, since smash sucks in the spec. The ridiculous single target burst makes it actually way better than vengeance in a 1v1 against anything except maybe a tank.

 

Focus/rage is also way easier to control on a rage jugg these days, and I've not found a situation at all that has had me use assault since 3.0. The only rage issues you will have are if you aren't playing the spec properly.

 

I Will say that vengeance has straight up better single target on a target that isn't moving and has a healer, but rage will definitely do more on a target trying to kite you, like a sorc or something, since it has a lot more utilities that prevent such things, like 10m attacks and an extra jump/root. It will also kill about any target without heals faster because of its burst and higher amounts of force damage that won't be avoided by dcds. That's why rage will almost always out perform a vengeance jugg in arenas, especially solos.

 

The only issue is getting the gear to make rage's single target damage comparable, since you need more specific stats than vengeance. It also has a much higher learning curve, and most people don't take the time to try it out, much like how your post makes you seem. It just seemingly fails behind vengeance when you don't have the gear and don't know how to use it.

[adproduction]

Those videos are completely irrelevant at this point, as they have changed both specs considerably since 3.0. Also, I'd like to know what you meant by rage doing massive damage to groups. It's completely single target these days, since smash sucks in the spec. The ridiculous single target burst makes it actually way better than vengeance in a 1v1 against anything except maybe a tank.

 

Focus/rage is also way easier to control on a rage jugg these days, and I've not found a situation at all that has had me use assault since 3.0. The only rage issues you will have are if you aren't playing the spec properly.

 

I Will say that vengeance has straight up better single target on a target that isn't moving and has a healer, but rage will definitely do more on a target trying to kite you, like a sorc or something, since it has a lot more utilities that prevent such things, like 10m attacks and an extra jump/root. It will also kill about any target without heals faster because of its burst and higher amounts of force damage that won't be avoided by dcds. That's why rage will almost always out perform a vengeance jugg in arenas, especially solos.

 

The only issue is getting the gear to make rage's single target damage comparable, since you need more specific stats than vengeance. It also has a much higher learning curve, and most people don't take the time to try it out, much like how your post makes you seem. It just seemingly fails behind vengeance when you don't have the gear and don't know how to use it.

 

1) Look at the dates, the video were made merely a month or so before the updates. There really any nerfs to the trees, they were just refocused. You can still do that output by either party. How will each build would do depends on gear and proc critical. It also depends on your focus/rage upkeep. Shien produces more of that than Shii-Cho or Soretsu.

 

2) Both are good against a person who isn't being assisted by a healer. They just have different approaches. Rage is about spike damage, not burst damage when I think about it and Vengeance is about Burst damage. Rage is that *** damage. You know the damage that goes from 1k one moment to 10k the next. I notice that in my leveling up (which is quick btw) that damage goes from 300ish to near 1000 as I start over with my Jedi Guardian. (I was a Sith Juggernaut at 55)

 

Vengeance does that solid 1k damage even if you aren't critical hitting and more when if you do. I didn't have my pvp gear so I was no where near the numbers that guy on the video had. I think a Vengeance can kill a Rage considering a Rage is dependent on Spike damage. Although, Rage can end a fight early if the critical hit maxes out.

[Kitsanth]

1) Look at the dates, the video were made merely a month or so before the updates. There really any nerfs to the trees, they were just refocused. You can still do that output by either party. How will each build would do depends on gear and proc critical. It also depends on your focus/rage upkeep. Shien produces more of that than Shii-Cho or Soretsu.

 

2) Both are good against a person who isn't being assisted by a healer. They just have different approaches. Rage is about spike damage, not burst damage when I think about it and Vengeance is about Burst damage. Rage is that *** damage. You know the damage that goes from 1k one moment to 10k the next. I notice that in my leveling up (which is quick btw) that damage goes from 300ish to near 1000 as I start over with my Jedi Guardian. (I was a Sith Juggernaut at 55)

 

Vengeance does that solid 1k damage even if you aren't critical hitting and more when if you do. I didn't have my pvp gear so I was no where near the numbers that guy on the video had. I think a Vengeance can kill a Rage considering a Rage is dependent on Spike damage. Although, Rage can end a fight early if the critical hit maxes out.

 

Rage it's completely different than how it was before 3.0. Vengeance didn't really get any buff except in aoe damage, but rage got completely buffed all around. The single target damage on rage it's massive now, and with your two largest hits having automatic critical hits, you can do about 25k damage in 2 gcds on a fully geared heavy armor. And when the auto crits on FS aren't up, it still has a bonus to its critical chance. it doesn't have to rely on crit% at all, so it can focus on having a much higher bonus damage ttan vengeance, plus it has a ton more up time on targets. If you play it right, it's way better at killing, especially solo fights, than a vengeance jugg. Rage might fall behind slightly in 8s for overall damage because it has no real aoe power, but generally it will have a lot more killing blows and your kill numbers will normally be higher. In arenas, its just hard for most vengeance to function these days, due to most other classes having a ton of kiting utility. Unyielding doesn't really make up for the loss of ranged attacks and the extra jump that can be used while impaired. Vengeance does have a place, I'm sure, but if you take the time to learn and gear up rage, it tends to make up for the slight loss in overall dps by giving you more killing power