I hate the chancellor

[Darth_Wicked]

One thing is to dislike the character.

 

Quite another is disliking the writing for that same character.

 

I like the writing for her character, but I dislike the character itself with a passion.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Excise]

One thing is to dislike the character.

 

Quite another is disliking the writing for that same character.

 

I like the writing for her character, but I dislike the character itself with a passion.

 

Good way to put it.

[Ghisallo]

Tbh it's very, very unlikely that they intended for the Emperor to die there. Going to go on about it now.

It's a reason Scourge says "He's weakened, but he's not gone" or something after you "kill" him", if you choose to do that. And it's a fact that it was the voice. I'm pretty sure that this mail has been in game since launch.

Had to head to youtube to find it, just fast forward to the middle

"Wrath, we have an important matter to dicuss. It is time you knew the secret of the Emperor's absence. While you silenced Darth Baras, the Jedi attempted the impossible feat of destroying the Emperor. Instead, they merely defeated the Emperor's true voice."

 

Then might I ask did even Darth acknowledge the lead writer said he was dead? This wasn't just some dev it was the LEAD of the story team. He is the one who controlled the story for the entire game at that time. Dismissing him as "some dev" seems more than a little Cavalier. There are a number of explanations that cover this though.

1. They intended him to be dead and the hands/servants etc, whose influence is based on the Emperor existing lied in the original story... imagine that a Sith lying because it serves their purpose.

2. He was again "for all intents and purposes" dead BUT they had a contingency plan... The temples and device on Yavin IV.

3. They retconned it because they didn't know what else to do.

 

Regardless this is completely irrelevant to the argument at hand.... that simply the return of the Emperor will result in the over throw of Saresh. Everything in the game says she is WILDLY popular with both the Republic Senate and Populace. The Emperor's return would no where be enough to watch her administration get canned. It will take a series of failures with this being the first to do that. Additionally if she went down over this Satele, and as a result the jedi Order (as she is grand master would take a MAJOR hit), Malcolm would go down with Saresh, as would the Director of SIS. It would be a political and and social blood bath.

 

I really think the whole "did the emperor die or not" is being used as a diversion by certain people in order to deflect from this issue. Saresh is not going anywhere solely based on what happened in the initial x-pac. At some point she probably will go down, get replaced whatever...but this isn't the trigger. If it has any effect it will be the equivilent of putting a round in the magazine but the gun isn't even close to being loaded yet so the trigger is far from being pulled.

[Ghisallo]

 

Personally I'm not sure what the whole Makeb debacle is, as we referring to the Empire takeover? Is that not a secret from the Republic? Or the fact they failed to secure Isotope 5? As far as I'm aware they lost nothing, put a stop to the Hutts, and gained the support of the Cartel, I think that can easily be chalked up as a win.

 

If anything, the announcement of the Emperor's death was the cherry on top, not some kind of distraction.

 

Personally I feel increasing tensions of lack of faith/respect etc. between herself the Republic Military and the Jedi Order will be her downfall. I expect that her affiliation with the Genoharadan will be brought to light and Satele & co. will be more than happy to pursue it as a means of removing her and her ineffective strategies from power.

 

He calls Makeb a debacle because Saresh gets all pissy that the republic didn't bring a wealthy world into the fold just a refugee population. BUT he forgets/ignores that right after that she is informed about the Hutts paying for everything and even adding their warships to the chips on the table and it goes from a loss to a win. Similar to how he ignores that the report he keeps harping about talks about her popularity both on the street and in the senate.

[Excise]

Everything in the game says she is WILDLY popular with both the Republic Senate and Populace.

 

To be honest I don't think there's been much lore on Saresh's popularity one way or another, but I could be wrong.

 

SWTOR isn't all that great at giving information on what's happening on a galactic scale.

 

edit: typo in Saresh's name.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Excise

[Darth_Wicked]

He calls Makeb a debacle because Saresh gets all pissy that the republic didn't bring a wealthy world into the fold just a refugee population.

 

You are incorrect.

 

I'm not the one calling Makeb a "debacle".

 

Saresh is the one who does first it

, with a blog entry doing the exact same further down the road, as seen here.

 

You must troll harder.

 

BUT he forgets/ignores that right after that she is informed about the Hutts paying for everything and even adding their warships to the chips on the table and it goes from a loss to a win.

 

It would seem you refuse to pay attention to anything that is shown you are incorrect in your assessment. We shall try once more, shall we?

 

Here goes:

 

Absorption of the bulk of the Hutt Cartel’s assets after the Makeb debacle brought only short-term gains, and only after the substantial expense necessary to bring those Cartel operations in line with Republic interests and legal codes.

The Cartel is in shambles. The invasion of Makeb can only be seen as a disastrous failure for Cartel interests, with all resources committed to the campaign lost and almost nothing gained.

^^ The above is reported long AFTER the Makeb debacle. Hence, your earlier claim is null and void.

 

Similar to how he ignores that the report he keeps harping about talks about her popularity both on the street and in the senate.

 

So... I am now ignoring the same kind of stuff I brought forth to begin with? Namely the State of the Galaxy blog entry?

 

You are making no sense whatsoever.

 

Again, what have you pulled thus far from the game itself, out of your own volition, to further cement your claim? Aside your poorly written fan-fiction tirade that is.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

To be honest I don't think there's been much lore on Suresh's popularity one way or another, but I could be wrong.

 

SWTOR isn't all that great at giving information on what's happening on a galactic scale.

 

Why Suresh?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Excise]

Why Suresh?

 

Let's say it was a test to see if you were paying attention...? (fixed)

[Darth_Wicked]

Let's say it was a test to see if you were paying attention...? (fixed)

 

It sure(sh) sounded righteous.

[Beniboybling]

Not really.

I appreciate the elaboration.

Reading attentively usually helps.

 

^^ You are trying to sidestep the above.

 

Again, you are attempting to sidestep the issue.

 

As far as I can guess, it was surely not Satele who chose to move forward with the announcement that the Sith Emperor was dead, in order to cover up for the debacle that Makeb turned out to be.

 

That would be Saresh for sure.

 

If you have indisputable evidence showing otherwise, please share.

The only things that's been sidestepped here is the quote from Satele I provided that disproves what you said as false, which I raised to directly address it. Fact is it was a Jedi and SIS committee, of which Saresh had no involvement, that informed Saresh that the Emperor was dead, not "presumably dead", but dead, forever.

 

Does it really matter whose decision it was to make this information public? How can Saresh be faulted for revealing to the galaxy the Emperor is dead, when surely withholding his information would be all the more damning?

 

What does the Makeb debacle have to do with informing the Republic of a major galactic event?! Maybe she thought it would deflect from these supposed failures, but the fact remains it was her duty to make this announcement.

 

Fact is the most significant error, the assumption made that the Emperor was permanently deceased, was one not made by Chancellor Saresh, but by Satele, the Jedi Order and the SIS, the ones who tried to fix their mistake on Yavin.

The Jedi and Sith uniting against a common foe, which has happened in the past, or allowing the galaxy at large to be destroyed by said common foe.

 

Were the truth to ever come out, the Jedi and the military acted, while Saresh allowed her fanatical views to get the better of her; that, in addition to covering up a blemish with another potential blemish, as the future came to exemplify.

Let's not forget that Saresh's inaction was purely theoretical, yes she probably would have refused an alliance, but she didn't actually do that, and we don't actually know what action, or inaction, she would have taken. She was completely in the dark, and by the time she knew about it it was all over. Saresh can't be blamed for something she had no part in.

[Ghisallo]

To be honest I don't think there's been much lore on Saresh's popularity one way or another, but I could be wrong.

 

SWTOR isn't all that great at giving information on what's happening on a galactic scale.

 

edit: typo in Saresh's name.

 

The "state of the galaxy" report Dark keeps posting to support his contention says it. I would normally agree with you but if he is going to put it out there I am going to deconstruct it.

[Ghisallo]

You are incorrect.

 

I'm not the one calling Makeb a "debacle".

 

Saresh is the one who does first it

, with a blog entry doing the exact same further down the road, as seen here.

 

You must troll harder.

 

 

 

It would seem you refuse to pay attention to anything that is shown you are incorrect in your assessment. We shall try once more, shall we?

 

Here goes:

 

 

 

^^ The above is reported long AFTER the Makeb debacle. Hence, your earlier claim is null and void.

 

 

 

So... I am now ignoring the same kind of stuff I brought forth to begin with? Namely the State of the Galaxy blog entry?

 

You are making no sense whatsoever.

 

Again, what have you pulled thus far from the game itself, out of your own volition, to further cement your claim? Aside your poorly written fan-fiction tirade that is.

 

 

I won't even respond point by point anymore. The fact is you have a predetermined theory and are in search of evidence to support that theory, to the point that, yes you cherry pick bits and pieces from videos and from anonymous reports you posted.

 

You ignore the fact the report also states that up till now her strategy has proved successful, that she is very popular with both the people and the senate and that it APPEARS they will over extend (not simply "they WILL"). All you focus on are the bits that support your preconceived notion. You are, pure and simply, engaged in a exercise of Confirmation Bias and thus ignore everything directly related to the events in game, common sense, history etc that contradicts this bias.

[Darth_Wicked]

The only things that's been sidestepped here is the quote from Satele I provided that disproves what you said as false, which I raised to directly address it.

 

You disproved absolutely nothing at all truth be told.

 

As far as I can remember, I stated Saresh did the announcement to the galaxy at large, out of her own volition. You have pretty much failed to ever prove otherwise.

 

Fact is it was a Jedi and SIS committee, of which Saresh had no involvement, that informed Saresh that the Emperor was dead, not "presumably dead", but dead, forever.

 

So the committee reviewed their findings on a rogue basis? They weren't acting with her blessing?

 

In addition to that, said committee also forced her to go ahead with the announcement, to cover up for the Makeb debacle? The plot thickens apparently.

 

Does it really matter whose decision it was to make this information public?

 

Given the timing of the revelation, plus what Makeb ended up entailing, it obviously does.

 

How can Saresh be faulted for revealing to the galaxy the Emperor is dead, when surely withholding his information would be all the more damning?

 

She can be faulted by the announcement, in addition to its poor timing.

 

What does the Makeb debacle have to do with informing the Republic of a major galactic event?!

 

You can't possibly be this naive.

 

Maybe she thought it would deflect from these supposed failures, but the fact remains it was her duty to make this announcement.

 

Her duty was to make sure the announcement was 100% accurate; that was clearly secondary. At the time, what she required the most was for something to be used as a distraction.

 

Fact is the most significant error, the assumption made that the Emperor was permanently deceased, was one not made by Chancellor Saresh, but by Satele, the Jedi Order and the SIS, the ones who tried to fix their mistake on Yavin.

 

Last I checked, she agreed to their conclusions.

 

Unless she was coerced by both the Jedi and the SiS to go ahead with the announcement, the blame falls squarely on her shoulders.

 

Let's not forget that Saresh's inaction was purely theoretical, yes she probably would have refused an alliance, but she didn't actually do that, and we don't actually know what action, or inaction, she would have taken.

 

How was it theoretical exactly?

 

In the same announcement she claimed the Sith Emperor was dead, Saresh outright stated the Dark Council was the true political power in the Empire, and she was gunning for the Sith and their followers.

 

She was completely in the dark, and by the time she knew about it it was all over. Saresh can't be blamed for something she had no part in.

 

She can be blamed by the Makeb debacle, seeing she was the Supreme Chancellor at the time.

 

She can be blamed by the announcement that the Sith Emperor was dead, which was erroneous.

 

She can be blamed by not inspiring trust in others, namely the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, in addition to the Supreme Commander, partly due to her fanatical views.

 

I could go on, but that should suffice.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Beniboybling]

So this discussion is getting a little too political/personal, so I think I'm going to back out at this point.

 

Interesting conservation nonetheless.

[Darth_Wicked]

I won't even respond point by point anymore.

 

You never responded point by point.

 

Instead, you just went for these massive walls of text which are incredibly excruciating to read. No offense, but a better formatting would go a long way, provided you wish to get your point across.

[Ghisallo]

You never responded point by point.

 

Instead, you just went for these massive walls of text which are incredibly excruciating to read. No offense, but a better formatting would go a long way, provided you wish to get your point across.

 

No previously I did respond to your points but just like in a conversation irl... no use in arguing with someone who is engaged in Confirmation Bias that is obvious to anyone with critical reading skills. Good day sir.

[SpaceMedafighter]

 

As far as I can remember, I stated Saresh did the announcement to the galaxy at large, out of her own volition

 

I would think that someone of the the stature of the Supreme Chancellor would have an entourage of advisors, speech writers and "spin doctors". I doubt it was a snap decision made without any consideration of the implications. Thus I don't think making the announcement would be overly damning to her.

 

So the committee reviewed their findings on a rogue basis? They weren't acting with her blessing?

 

In addition to that, said committee also forced her to go ahead with the announcement, to cover up for the Makeb debacle? The plot thickens apparently.

 

Can we state conclusively that the announcement was designed as a cover-up of some form?

 

Her duty was to make sure the announcement was 100% accurate; that was clearly secondary. At the time, what she required the most was for something to be used as a distraction.

 

How would she ensure this accuracy? Establishing a committee to rule on the findings of a committee? Did she organize the SIS and Jedi committee in the first place? Who sat on that committee? If Satele was on it, there would arguably be no higher authority on Force related issues. What was the committee's findings? Was the emperor dead or were the findings more accurate (i.e. some sort of non-corporeal being in a coma)? I ,honestly, don't know the answers to these questions, but they would speak to how Saresh handled the situation.

 

Unless she was coerced by both the Jedi and the SiS to go ahead with the announcement, the blame falls squarely on her shoulders.

 

Once again, depending on the actual findings of the committee, this could go either way. If the committee said he was not quite dead yet then she will suffer blowback (or likely pass it on) and if they said he was dead then the fault lies with the committee (the Force is sufficiently mystical to non-Force users to easily let the committee burn for this).

 

She can be blamed by the Makeb debacle, seeing she was the Supreme Chancellor at the time.

 

The Hutts are to blame for Makeb. Given the reparations that they have made, it seems likely the public will view it that way (since i imagine Hutts are not well liked in general).

 

She can be blamed by the announcement that the Sith Emperor was dead, which was erroneous.

 

And this blame can be turned onto the Jedi. A Jedi was sent to kill the emperor and failed. A Jedi and SIS committee was established to assess the situation and may (or may not - depending on findings) have failed.

 

She can be blamed by not inspiring trust in others, namely the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, in addition to the Supreme Commander, partly due to her fanatical views.

 

This assumes that given a public opinion poll favoring Saresh or Satele & Co would side with Satele. This same issue can be seen as the Jedi failing yet again to defend the Republic. I don't think it is fair to demonize only Saresh for the apparent friction between these two groups.

[Darth_Wicked]

I would think that someone of the the stature of the Supreme Chancellor would have an entourage of advisors, speech writers and "spin doctors". I doubt it was a snap decision made without any consideration of the implications. Thus I don't think making the announcement would be overly damning to her.

 

It was a snap decision made out of necessity, driven by demagogy.

 

Can we state conclusively that the announcement was designed as a cover-up of some form?

 

What would you call it exactly? Have you even read or seen the materials I provided earlier?

 

Once again, depending on the actual findings of the committee, this could go either way. If the committee said he was not quite dead yet then she will suffer blowback (or likely pass it on) and if they said he was dead then the fault lies with the committee (the Force is sufficiently mystical to non-Force users to easily let the committee burn for this).

 

The findings are not so much the point, but rather the announcement and its poor timing. It was a decision motivated by self-preservation, not so much as a rally cry, or something that strove, as we can all see now, for accuracy.

 

The Hutts are to blame for Makeb. Given the reparations that they have made, it seems likely the public will view it that way (since i imagine Hutts are not well liked in general).

 

Incorrect.

 

You are also proving you're one of those people who crash land into an argument, while ignoring what was discussed earlier, not to mention what the game shows; no news there.

 

We'll try again nonetheless:

 

Absorption of the bulk of the Hutt Cartel’s assets after the Makeb debacle brought only short-term gains, and only after the substantial expense necessary to bring those Cartel operations in line with Republic interests and legal codes.

The Cartel is in shambles. The invasion of Makeb can only be seen as a disastrous failure for Cartel interests, with all resources committed to the campaign lost and almost nothing gained.

- - - -

And this blame can be turned onto the Jedi. A Jedi was sent to kill the emperor and failed.

 

The blame of the announcement can be turned to Saresh, especially in light of the Makeb debacle.

 

A Jedi and SIS committee was established to assess the situation and may (or may not - depending on findings) have failed.

 

It is fair to assume she agreed to their findings, unless of course, you are proposing Saresh is a halfwit who follows others mindlessly, instead of leading the offensive.

 

This assumes that given a public opinion poll favoring Saresh or Satele & Co would side with Satele.

 

The Jedi, in addition to the SiS and the military took a stand. Saresh, given her agenda, was presumably willing to allow the galaxy to burn, lest she be forced to compromise her fanatical views.

 

Though call for the public.

 

This same issue can be seen as the Jedi failing yet again to defend the Republic. I don't think it is fair to demonize only Saresh for the apparent friction between these two groups.

 

No.

 

This same issue can be seen as the Jedi compromising to protect the Republic, not to mention the galaxy. The fact people in both factions saw the situation was dire enough to warrant a truce is quite telling.

 

On the other hand, the fact Saresh would be presumably unwilling to reach a compromise speaks volumes. It's no wonder others have problems relying on her.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Kyrrant]

Something you seem to be missing in your own quotes, Wicked?

 

The Makeb Debacle only seems to be referred to as a debacle FOR THE HUTTS. They threw a lot of resources into the attack and not only failed to obtain the wunderwaffe they had their eye on, but many of them were also strongarmed into a subordinate relationship with the Republic.

 

One that Saresh, while not responsible for the creation of it, no doubt had a large part in making the Hutts hold up their end of the bargain.

 

So basically, the Empire got a long-term win out of Makeb, the Republic got a few new problems, but a huge amount of mundane resources that would be more than enough to make up for it, and the Hutts got f'd coming and going.

 

As for announcing the death of the Emperor? I actually consider that a win for her.

 

Sure, it turned out to be premature, but the best intel she had at that time was that it as an accurate call. They waited some time to see if he would reappear via Insane Force BS, and made a galactic announcement that would bolster the morale of their forces and sap the morale of the Empire's.

 

Yes, it turns out to be false now... but is the Empire going to say it? If they announce openly that the Emperor is alive(ish)... but wants to eat the galaxy, they might face a civil war between Sith either insanely loyal to the Emperor or those that think Marr's just making a weak power play like Malgus did, versus Sith that, you know, don't want to die.

 

Ironically, its in no one's interests to admit that the Emperor's still around in some form or another...

[Excise]

Blaming Saresh for thinking the Emperor is dead doesn't work for me, personally. She's gotta go with what her people (the SIS and Jedi) tell her, and unless we have some evidence that they told her they thought the Emperor might be dead, she's ok in my book.

 

It was a purely Jedi operation, and they certainly seemed to think the Emperor was dead. I don't know why they would tell the Chancellor something else.

[Darth_Wicked]

Something you seem to be missing in your own quotes, Wicked?

 

The Makeb Debacle only seems to be referred to as a debacle FOR THE HUTTS. They threw a lot of resources into the attack and not only failed to obtain the wunderwaffe they had their eye on, but many of them were also strongarmed into a subordinate relationship with the Republic.

 

Actually, I haven't missed anything at all.

 

It is you who are incorrect in your assessment, as the quotes below show:

Absorption of the bulk of the Hutt Cartel’s assets after the Makeb debacle brought only short-term gains, and only after the substantial expense necessary to bring those Cartel operations in line with Republic interests and legal codes.

 

^^ Both links refer to a debacle, as far as the Republic is concerned, not the Hutt Cartel.

 

One that Saresh, while not responsible for the creation of it, no doubt had a large part in making the Hutts hold up their end of the bargain.

 

Issue being, as attested above, the gains for the Republic from the alliance with the Hutt Cartel were minimal to non-existent.

 

Hence, as stated numerous times, debacle, a word not used by me initially, but rather by Saresh, in addition to an in-game piece of fiction penned by the writers of the game.

 

So basically, the Empire got a long-term win out of Makeb, the Republic got a few new problems, but a huge amount of mundane resources that would be more than enough to make up for it, and the Hutts got f'd coming and going.

 

What resources are you talking about exactly?

 

The earlier links I provided, over and over again, disprove your claim.

 

As for announcing the death of the Emperor? I actually consider that a win for her.

 

How is it a win, considering it was meant to be used as a distraction to cover up a debacle, compounded by the fact it was inaccurate, and the Emperor wasn't truly dead?

 

Sure, it turned out to be premature (...)

 

"Erroneous" is not the same as "premature" I believe.

 

Yes, it turns out to be false now...

 

Its veracity was never that relevant to begin with.

 

Ironically, its in no one's interests to admit that the Emperor's still around in some form or another...

 

That's not the point, nor it ever was.

[Excise]

The whole "was Makeb a debacle" thing, for me, seems like it's more of a DS/LS thing. Saresh considers it a debacle because she's a pragmatic DSer and Makeb hurt the war effort.

 

But from a LS perspective? Helping innocents despite it hurting yourself is as pure LS as it gets.

[Kyrrant]

How is it a win, considering it was meant to be used as a distraction to cover up a debacle, compounded by the fact it was inaccurate, and the Emperor wasn't truly dead?

 

Here's why I consider it a win:

 

Sure, it turned out to be premature, but the best intel she had at that time was that it as an accurate call. They waited some time to see if he would reappear via Insane Force BS, and made a galactic announcement that would bolster the morale of their forces and sap the morale of the Empire's.

 

Yes, it turns out to be false now... but is the Empire going to say it? If they announce openly that the Emperor is alive(ish)... but wants to eat the galaxy, they might face a civil war between Sith either insanely loyal to the Emperor or those that think Marr's just making a weak power play like Malgus did, versus Sith that, you know, don't want to die.

 

Ironically, its in no one's interests to admit that the Emperor's still around in some form or another...

 

Drop "Premature" for "Inaccurate", and the point still stants: It hurts the morale of the Empire, boosts the Republic's morale. And those two factors will not go away, because no one wants to admit that the Emperor's still alive in some form.

 

Please consider the full post and not nitpick?

[Darth_Wicked]

Blaming Saresh for thinking the Emperor is dead doesn't work for me, personally.

 

As I said earlier, I blame her for the announcement, plus its poor timing.

 

On top of that, while the Jedi, with the support of the Supreme Commander, tried to make amends for their error -- going so far as to agree to a truce with a Dark Council member -- Saresh has inferred more than once she would have none of that.

[SelinaH]

As SpaceMedafighter has already noted, whoever is truly to blame, Saresh seems to have the political savvy -- and requisite ruthlessness -- to allow her to spin the situation in her favor. Of course, that's likely to mean throwing someone else under the bus in her stead.

 

Things could get interesting.