Why should we choose maras/sent for pvp? Is there any point compared to sin/shadow?

[Chicato]

Backtrack Undying Rage to pre-nerf and the class will be fine.

[Zadtro]

I suppose un-nerfing undying rage might help but it doesn't help the whole stun f****d to death :/

[AdrianDmitruk]

Depends to a very large extent on playstyle. Are you there to tunnel a healer, or make a contribution to your team? (For purposes of answering this question, assume you are in a premade, as pugs would not know a group buff if it bit them in the arse.)

 

Because Force Speed is self-only. Predation is group-wide. And if you step out of DPS tunnel mode into more of a support role, assuming your team is intelligent enough to use such support (which is why I stipulate that you're in a premade above), predation becomes absolute CRACK to the rest of your team.

 

Your healer suddenly becomes almost uncatchable, barring a pull or HtL. Regular slows are kinda-sorta noticed but lose much of their effectiveness unless there are three or more of them. Your tank has that much more mobility to guard switch and protect whoever's being focused. Your other DPS (esp. melee DPS) has that much more uptime on target. Yes, you sacrifice a whole lot of your personal DPS to play a marauder as a support class rather than straight DPS, but if you play it right predation is nearly spammable. And you think I didn't notice this when my tank invited a marauder to our group tonight, and said marauder played support rather than numbers chasing?

 

That alone made my life as a healer HELLA easier. It (along with bubblestun and timely knockbacks) allowed me to be an alternate ballcarrier at mid in huttball when our main carrier had just scored, and sorcs are not well known for their innate ballcarrying abilities. It made defending objectives much easier as I could spend less time worrying about kiting and healing myself, and more time healing others and AOEing for objective denial over the course of a match, simply because predation a couple times a minute makes what kiting I must do that much more effective and compresses its necessity into a shorter timeframe.

 

I should also point out that I don't really know that marauder, other than by server reputation. I was not on voice with him or anything, my tank just invited him to group tonight. He just sees a point to playing marauder rather than sin, stuck with his main even after Bioware nerfed it...and there it is. I couldn't ask him when his AOE mez (another one of the mara's advantages over sin) was up for peelng purposes because he wasn't in voice. (Note, I stayed on my sorc healer main and stayed healer even during the dark days of h2f, so I empathize.) He plays it as a support class, not DPS, he was smart about it, I took his buffs for all they were worth and absolutely ran with them, and it made the team as a whole stronger.

 

Needless to say, the three of us had quite a good night in PVP, even against teams that are normally pretty good at separating me from my tank.

 

Now I'm aware that Bioware mucked up predation's use in arenas for 3.0 and I am disappoint. 8v8 though? I'd take a good support marauder in my group over a 1337 sin any day.

 

We definitely do think in terms of the trinity here, but originally during early MMO history, there was more than just the trinity: you had tanks, heals, DPS, and SUPPORT. Support classes waned as MMOs became more and more casual friendly, and I don't think Bioware wants the headaches of balancing a true support class, but the marauder is probably the closest this game has to one (assuming you wish to play that way).

[Fellow-Canadian]

For the OP: No, there is no reason to pick a marauder over a sin.

[Ramtar]

Depends to a very large extent on playstyle. Are you there to tunnel a healer, or make a contribution to your team? (For purposes of answering this question, assume you are in a premade, as pugs would not know a group buff if it bit them in the arse.)

 

Because Force Speed is self-only. Predation is group-wide. And if you step out of DPS tunnel mode into more of a support role, assuming your team is intelligent enough to use such support (which is why I stipulate that you're in a premade above), predation becomes absolute CRACK to the rest of your team.

 

Your healer suddenly becomes almost uncatchable, barring a pull or HtL. Regular slows are kinda-sorta noticed but lose much of their effectiveness unless there are three or more of them. Your tank has that much more mobility to guard switch and protect whoever's being focused. Your other DPS (esp. melee DPS) has that much more uptime on target. Yes, you sacrifice a whole lot of your personal DPS to play a marauder as a support class rather than straight DPS, but if you play it right predation is nearly spammable. And you think I didn't notice this when my tank invited a marauder to our group tonight, and said marauder played support rather than numbers chasing?

 

That alone made my life as a healer HELLA easier. It (along with bubblestun and timely knockbacks) allowed me to be an alternate ballcarrier at mid in huttball when our main carrier had just scored, and sorcs are not well known for their innate ballcarrying abilities. It made defending objectives much easier as I could spend less time worrying about kiting and healing myself, and more time healing others and AOEing for objective denial over the course of a match, simply because predation a couple times a minute makes what kiting I must do that much more effective and compresses its necessity into a shorter timeframe.

 

I should also point out that I don't really know that marauder, other than by server reputation. I was not on voice with him or anything, my tank just invited him to group tonight. He just sees a point to playing marauder rather than sin, stuck with his main even after Bioware nerfed it...and there it is. I couldn't ask him when his AOE mez (another one of the mara's advantages over sin) was up for peelng purposes because he wasn't in voice. (Note, I stayed on my sorc healer main and stayed healer even during the dark days of h2f, so I empathize.) He plays it as a support class, not DPS, he was smart about it, I took his buffs for all they were worth and absolutely ran with them, and it made the team as a whole stronger.

 

Needless to say, the three of us had quite a good night in PVP, even against teams that are normally pretty good at separating me from my tank.

 

Now I'm aware that Bioware mucked up predation's use in arenas for 3.0 and I am disappoint. 8v8 though? I'd take a good support marauder in my group over a 1337 sin any day.

 

We definitely do think in terms of the trinity here, but originally during early MMO history, there was more than just the trinity: you had tanks, heals, DPS, and SUPPORT. Support classes waned as MMOs became more and more casual friendly, and I don't think Bioware wants the headaches of balancing a true support class, but the marauder is probably the closest this game has to one (assuming you wish to play that way).

 

I didn't decide to play Sentinel to be a SUPPORT class. I decide to play a Sentinel in this MMO because I played a Weapon Master in KotOR II.

 

If BW wants Sentinel/Marauder to be support class: Decrease defensive CDs and increase all Force abilites (10m or less) to 30 m. This way a Sentinel/Marauder can SUPPORT at any range.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Ramtar

[MotorCityMan]

Mara is good as an alt used as a crafting dummy, along with all agents, and troopers. If you haven't rolled a jugg or sin by now you just don't get it. Edited January 5, 2015 by MotorCityMan

[Belpheghor]

One simple idea that might make Mara work in PvP is put in a new utility to reduce the CD on force camo by 15 seconds (to 30 sec CD down from 45) and rework force camo so by default it breaks and is immune to any roots, stuns or slows with 100% dmg reduction for the 4 to 6 (if you take that utility) sec duration.

 

So even though the DCDs are kinda crappy still and the class is super squishy when Mara gets zerged and focused at least we could pop out, run off, hide/heal and live to fight some more.

 

I could see Mara working with this adjustment as a hit n' run support dps class. With a 30 second force camo a hit n' run playstyle could work as long as we get stun, root, slow immunity.

[Thefriar]

Mara/Sent is horrible for PVP. In my opinion the worst class in the game at the moment although some will disagree. I would advise you to shelve your Mara/Sent and try anything else. They just don't bring anything to the table anymore.

 

Fortunate for you there are many options.

[Zadtro]

I didn't decide to play Sentinel to be a SUPPORT class. I decide to play a Sentinel in this MMO because I played a Weapon Master in KotOR II.

 

If BW wants Sentinel/Marauder to be support class: Decrease defensive CDs and increase all Force abilites (10m or less) to 30 m. This way a Sentinel/Marauder can SUPPORT at any range.

 

Same here, loved Kotor II =]

 

Support classes can't support unless they can get to everyone, we would need a friendly leap as well as an offense leap for a start or 30m range on things but then that defeats the point of being melee.

[Cretinus]

Maras are in quite a good place right now. Problem is that everybody and his mum were playing a mara before, cause mara used to be the most forgiving "hero" class of all. Things are now slightly different and one now needs a certain basic skill to ride a mara. It's sins who are the forgiving class now and that's the reason why everybodie's mum and her sons are on a sin, meanwhile. To make a short story shorter: Maras and sins have simply swapped places. Nothing to see here. Move on please. Circulate. Go away. Move. Hush. Edited January 6, 2015 by Cretinus

[Zadtro]

Pre 3.0 they were fine in my opinion, they weren't overpowered. Now they are just an easy kill, one thing I am finding helpful is fully committing to obsofucate with the utility points. Using it every 45secs is very useful.

 

Still on my sin I just destroy them, it is stupidly funny how easy it is.

[Helig]

Mara is good as an alt used as a crafting dummy, along with all agents, and troopers. If you haven't rolled a jugg or sin by now you just don't get it.

VGs don't global people, right?

[Evanouss]

I play my mara(carnage) and my jugg(vigilance) and my sin(hatred/deception) and id consider myself to actually be best at my mara since it was my first class. The difference is absolutely ridiculous. As a solo quer and occasional group quer the difference is not even close, not even a little bit. Vig juggs and hatred sins have such a huge advantage, not only from a stun/root break/immunity stance , but also from survival self heal stance.

 

At this point a mara/sent, w/o a healer/guard should be every teams first target in WZ's and areans....They have to melee and get in close, which means focus fire, or, sure they can sit back and wait for others to jump in first, but again that's a form of support right there. Try being a mara on an all ranged/sin team...it's laughable..you get hosed by opposing teams ranged..It's a joke atm, and yes sins/shadows had problems pre 3.0 but cmon....you have stealth at least and could/can pick your battles a lot easier then mara/sent...You cannot compare these new mara woes to old assasin/shadow woes....

Edited January 6, 2015 by Evanouss

[Rekkakuski]

It's hard time play Mara with all those roots and stuns.. Even if I walk to Sage and start do some dmg, they just knock me away with root or i get stunned with bubblestun and they just run away. Next come force lift or stun and again they are away from 4m range. So I don't know when I can do dmg what Marauder usually do. It's hardly 600-800 dps if we have healer at group, but with Serenity Shadow I can do half more dps without pain in my blackhole...

[Zadtro]

I have found myself targeting them and burning them quickly so the healer has less to worry about, even though most of the time healer can just root and I can pummel the job done.

 

Even if a mara uses camo, I use aoe stun, camo wears off and then mar will pop undying rage (if low on hp) so i will force choke to waste the time of the damage reduction or force push and then mara is dead.

 

So many classes have push backs and stuns so if we do anything we just get stunned, and we have a 2min breaker. If any class deserves to have a reduced time on breaker it is mara/sent.

[calamatiesend]

For the OP: No, there is no reason to pick a marauder over a sin.

 

Mainly this, there is nothing a mara/sent can do better than a sin currently with the exception of being a group speed bot in 8v8s.....

[Zadtro]

Mainly this, there is nothing a mara/sent can do better than a sin currently with the exception of being a group speed bot in 8v8s.....

 

I agree that it is our greatest utility but it is no fun to play, just dying and boosting gets really boring.

[Dras_Keto]

Backtrack Undying Rage to pre-nerf and the class will be fine.

 

That would have been mostly true pre 3.0. They would still be a class that needs a good team (or to be facing a trash tier one) to really shine, but for the most part, Id say thats ok.

 

Post 3.0? Putting Undying Rage back the way it was (IE, making it no longer a button you push when you want to respawn 5 seconds later) wouldnt do anywhere near enough. Every single class now either wants to stay in melee range of a mara anyway and literally doesnt care if the mara is there OR can kite the mara for days.

 

Maras also enjoy the luxury of being the only melee class that a competent sniper can consistently and reliably **** on in a 1v1.

 

Theres a term that a friend of mine obsessed with mobas (LoL...) would always be using: Mobility Creep. Its the reason why certain champions fell out of favour in that game, they simply had no way to keep up. And, its applicable here now.

 

Look at the melee classes we have in this game. PTs? Well, they arent really melee anymore. Sins? Both specs have plenty of options at distance (although hatred has waaay more) and plenty of ways to ignore or break roots/slows/CC. And juggernauts are of course still juggernauts.

 

Maras need a lot more than Undying Rage being a beneficial ability again.

[Zadtro]

Yes we need something, I still think the secret is in camo, make it a 30 sec cooldown and immune to everything so we can get in close to people, at the moment camo just gets aoe to death or mezzed.

 

Or

 

Predation needs to have a cooldown and be immune to movement impairing effects throughout its duration. Or make predation worth 15stacks of fury so it can be used more often but that might be a bit too much. I have used it as a root breaker then just been rooted again.

[Dras_Keto]

Or, make predation exactly like hydraulic overrides. As in, its own ability, separate from fury generation. I mean, its totally ok for a super bursty, heavy armour, basically ranged class with all instant cast nukes to have 10 seconds of super speed and immunity to physics/roots/slows with only 15 seconds of downtime in between.

[Zadtro]

Or, make predation exactly like hydraulic overrides. As in, its own ability, separate from fury generation. I mean, its totally ok for a super bursty, heavy armour, basically ranged class with all instant cast nukes to have 10 seconds of super speed and immunity to physics/roots/slows with only 15 seconds of downtime in between.

 

"Applaud"

 

Exactly, that would work perfectly =]

[TicTicTic]

I play both shadow and sent and think sent is fine. The difference between the two is that if I m in a bad group in pvp I change game play to go to the nodes away from group to avoid frustration.

 

I find in those bad groups were I pop trans and leap into the middle of the enemy using Awe to stun most of them then focus on heals and pop saber ward and rebuke and take most of the enemies main attacks before stealthing out to leap back on heals then pop saved by the force if needed and wz med after.

 

I turn after 20 secs of this just as I m dying to see most of the team being unable to kill 1 while I have been keeping 5 busy. On good teams they come up and support me , heals heal and dps start knocking down people focused on me. The really good groups take down the heals 1st with me.

 

I have found sent to be a force of nature that my shadow isn't. I find it easier to stay on heals with sent ( I m focus spec, picked that spec for pvp because of z leap.) Force leap, they knock you back I just z leap back at them. Get knocked off a ledge by sniper or sage, they think they are safe I just z leap next to them and they take 5 secs to notice you are back on them. Love jumping snipers with z leap. You can leap at them when they are in cover with it.

 

Force slow them then unleash stacked attacks at same time as last tick, they pin you and run, saber throw followed by dispatch finishes a lot of people. That didn't work pop trans to purge movement stopping abilities and get on them again.

 

Quesh pit, my team gets the ball I fight stun, awe and slow people around them get trans up and pop it after acid finishes, get table and go to second level, pop prediction and trans once more while force lifting last person on ball carrier, enemy respawn no prob force leap is back up jump up as ball carrier comes to line and awe again. Easy score.

 

I have to admit that sents/mars under use a amazing ability, if used at the right time it will win you 1 v 1 battles. Anyone guess it? I don't want to say it because if the word gets out 1 v1 fights against sent who don't use it get harder.

 

I find I win most battle against sins/shadows on my sent its only madness/balance that are hard. I can still beat most 1 on 1 but in a group they melt me, but its the same on my shadow.

 

Playing my shadow good sents give me a run for my money, I don't take them lightly, saying that there are a lot of sents/mars who do not play the class to its full ability and they are easy just like any spec/class is, we have all run into sorcs/sages who run around without bubble shields. Lots of sents/mars who don't use rebuke or pop zen, trans or dps increase. Plenty of bad shadow/sins don't use battle readiness to regen health or resilience.

 

If you find it hard read your abilities and pay attention to details. When you have stacked your abilities and you have prediction up with dps increase, use it in close fights it gives you a unfair advantage. Near a health regen? Stealth out pop trans pick it up and leap back into fight with full hp.

Edited January 6, 2015 by TicTicTic

[Dras_Keto]

You describing a situation where you have everything going for you. Skilled teammates (especially skilled healers, and people to peel for you) and completely incompetent enemies. And then saying that because of these conditions, the class is fine.

 

Id say youre trolling if it werent for the way you are writing. Its too involved, incoherent and detailed to be a likely troll, but I could be wrong. If so, props to you.

 

Oh, and we all know about Guarded by the Force. Its not some big secret. If you think that the ability is useful, it says less about the strength of the ability than it does about the absolute incompetence of the person or persons you are fighting.

 

Finally, if you actually believe that maras/sents are in a better place than shadows right now....

Edited January 6, 2015 by Dras_Keto

[XeniusX]

I play both shadow and sent and think sent is fine. The difference between the two is that if I m in a bad group in pvp I change game play to go to the nodes away from group to avoid frustration.

 

I find in those bad groups were I pop trans and leap into the middle of the enemy using Awe to stun most of them then focus on heals and pop saber ward and rebuke and take most of the enemies main attacks before stealthing out to leap back on heals then pop saved by the force if needed and wz med after.

 

I turn after 20 secs of this just as I m dying to see most of the team being unable to kill 1 while I have been keeping 5 busy. On good teams they come up and support me , heals heal and dps start knocking down people focused on me. The really good groups take down the heals 1st with me.

 

I have found sent to be a force of nature that my shadow isn't. I find it easier to stay on heals with sent ( I m focus spec, picked that spec for pvp because of z leap.) Force leap, they knock you back I just z leap back at them. Get knocked off a ledge by sniper or sage, they think they are safe I just z leap next to them and they take 5 secs to notice you are back on them. Love jumping snipers with z leap. You can leap at them when they are in cover with it.

 

Force slow them then unleash stacked attacks at same time as last tick, they pin you and run, saber throw followed by dispatch finishes a lot of people. That didn't work pop trans to purge movement stopping abilities and get on them again.

 

Quesh pit, my team gets the ball I fight stun, awe and slow people around them get trans up and pop it after acid finishes, get table and go to second level, pop prediction and trans once more while force lifting last person on ball carrier, enemy respawn no prob force leap is back up jump up as ball carrier comes to line and awe again. Easy score.

 

I have to admit that sents/mars under use a amazing ability, if used at the right time it will win you 1 v 1 battles. Anyone guess it? I don't want to say it because if the word gets out 1 v1 fights against sent who don't use it get harder.

 

I find I win most battle against sins/shadows on my sent its only madness/balance that are hard. I can still beat most 1 on 1 but in a group they melt me, but its the same on my shadow.

 

Playing my shadow good sents give me a run for my money, I don't take them lightly, saying that there are a lot of sents/mars who do not play the class to its full ability and they are easy just like any spec/class is, we have all run into sorcs/sages who run around without bubble shields. Lots of sents/mars who don't use rebuke or pop zen, trans or dps increase. Plenty of bad shadow/sins don't use battle readiness to regen health or resilience.

 

If you find it hard read your abilities and pay attention to details. When you have stacked your abilities and you have prediction up with dps increase, use it in close fights it gives you a unfair advantage. Near a health regen? Stealth out pop trans pick it up and leap back into fight with full hp.

 

Sorry but no. Anyone that thinks that sent/mara currently is fine has some twisted sense of reality.

The only reason i don't complain as much is because 90 % of the playerbase don't play their class optimally and therefore i stand a chance on my mara. Playing against good players of pretty much ANY class in todays meta and we are toast.

Not so weird considering most classes now have so much immunity and controll that being pretty much the sole melee class left in the game makes you wanna pull your hair out when you can't followup.

Ironically we also sacrifize our dps in order to be able to move around a little.

 

Fury tree i might consider okay though. Still not on par but works. More mobility with the extra leap makes a difference aswell as good burst. However playing a spec that the jugg can play blindfolded and kill me with because of his 3 lives makes it sort of lackluster, not to mention how boring i find it honestly.

 

Oh, and just because you kill bad shadows the class is fine ? lol.. Ill pick up my assassin and destroy your little sent without even thinking and i don't even play assassin.

[Xinika]

Skewed view, considering there's no reason to take a Mara over a PT either. Although the way sin plays now is quite rat and there's no denying that.