lets talk Socerer's! Seriously, no hat just realy come on now?

[KrackShotz]

If you do not recognize that hatred sins are overtuned right now (and they are the only sin spec that is currently OP), then I do not know what to tell you. Hatred is currently the most powerful spec in the game and blows madness away in damage output and strength of utitilites (due to CC immunity). And you are way off in what you said. Stun immunity on deflection and egress also were not in their "kit" pre-3.0. DoT spread is also new, as is the completely ridiculous life leech/serenity strike. If you think the spec is anywhere near balanced right now, you have a problem.

 

The sad truth is that if you are bringing anything but a hatred sin, vengeance jug, or madness sorc to yolo queue when there are no healers in the queue, you are hurting your team.

 

Define overtuned? Hatred dot spread is mostly fluff dmg but in a 1v1 deception still has a lower ttk. So if you are doing solo regs and you are trying to steal a node deception is still the way to go. If you are defending a node hatred is the way to go.

 

People like hatred for the high numbers in solo regs. It was useless in ranked pre3.0 because of it's terrible survivablity. As for it's new survivablity kit is that overtuned? Maybe a little, resilience can mitigate large chunks of burst, only problematic for specs with high burst and no sustain i define resilience mechanics in itself as counter play to that and fair play. no good assassin is using the immunity on deflection, instant whirlwind is the way to go if you are using deflection just to simply avoid cc you're using it wrong and will die faster but like I said, assassin don't get heal to full like juggs and have lower armor than pts and melt just as easily as sorc and egress doesn't grant you immunity to stuns it only breaks snares. Maybe you lower the time on resilience but I think hatred assassins are fair play atm.

 

As far as their life leech ability i mean really? juggs have heal to full, ops can basically run circles around you until they are full, sorc bubble stun heal to full, etc. seem in line to the way other mechanics work. I've been in 12 min viodstars and seen 500k heals from a jugg the most i've gotten was 280k on my sin.

 

I don't think "nerfing" class are the way to go. I think either you redesign the way the class plays and bring up others to the level of the most played specs in the game. I have well over 1000 games in ranked, 4 classes in tier 2 and only spec class I think needs to be redesigned are right now mercs. They do a ridiculous amount of dmg if left to free cast, the only class in the game that has high burst and high sustain and probably one of the lowest if not the lowest ttk but they need is something in their kit that allows them to fully recover under heavy focus other than that I like classes are in line with each other. Maybe you tuned down resilience a bit, get rid of aoe spam on sorc but other than that I can't think of anything to "nerf". I've seen it all to.

Edited December 31, 2014 by KrackShotz

[RodneyMcNeely]

The self stun argument is getting old. There really is no penalty for barrier. You can heal to full with it, it purges you, and you get bastion after it that absorbs a ton of damage. You don't even have to be in it for the whole time to get a lot of benefit. They over buffed barrier. I'd be fine with them lowering the cooldown by a substantial amount if they got rid of all the other crap it can do. Honestly you shouldn't be able to be healed in it. With all the other tools sorcs have now barrier is just too much.

This just occurred to me:

 

Why can't Guarded by the Force take the Sentinel OUT of combat for the duration and allow the use of Introspection regardless of being attacked? Basically taking them out of the flow of combat to allow self-healing?

 

Just wondering.

[Saikochoro]

This just occurred to me:

 

Why can't Guarded by the Force take the Sentinel OUT of combat for the duration and allow the use of Introspection regardless of being attacked? Basically taking them out of the flow of combat to allow self-healing?

 

Just wondering.

 

Haha I'm not good with the pub names for powers. Not sure what introspection is. Anyway, I think maras need a couple changes. Already stated them in other threads though.

[Saikochoro]

If you do not recognize that hatred sins are overtuned right now (and they are the only sin spec that is currently OP), then I do not know what to tell you. Hatred is currently the most powerful spec in the game and blows madness away in damage output and strength of utitilites (due to CC immunity). And you are way off in what you said. Stun immunity on deflection and egress also were not in their "kit" pre-3.0. DoT spread is also new, as is the completely ridiculous life leech/serenity strike. If you think the spec is anywhere near balanced right now, you have a problem.

 

The sad truth is that if you are bringing anything but a hatred sin, vengeance jug, or madness sorc to yolo queue when there are no healers in the queue, you are hurting your team.

 

Wait... I thought this was a sorc QQ thread

Edited December 31, 2014 by Saikochoro

[MarcoMontana]

Sorcs and Sin are both ruining the game... There will only be 2 classes on the server soon!

[Phienchen]

So you're whining that after you attacked the target with the squishiest armor and got it down like how many faster then anyone else? ... you complain that they can survive a little longer without doing anything. Seriously... why not ask for a I win over sorcerer button? It strips of even the light armor and gives an extra 100% of damage to them. They are glass canons... as such they are priority target besides healers... oh and... the red fields on the ground... you should go out of them... tssssss

[Galothor]

oh and... the red fields on the ground... you should go out of them... tssssss

 

pssssssst! Don't tell them!

[Loxei]

Sorcs and Sin are both ruining the game... There will only be 2 classes on the server soon!

 

Nah some of them will crawl back to their other classes when they realize how squishy they are. x)

[EnkiduNineEight]

Sorcs/Sages (dps specced) are regularly doing 1million damage and over 500,000 healing with 0 or 1 deaths on Jung Ma

 

The class is a bit ridiculous now. I'm somewhat tired of hearing the 'but we wear cloth and are squishy!'

 

Snipers/Slingers do not do anywhere near the damage you do, have none of your tools for survivability had the DCD's nerfed and have no abilities to make themselves immune to damage, then get a damage shield, and healing, immune to cc, etc etc etc.

 

Squishiest class presently is the sniper/slinger even when they are hunkered down.

[puzzle_maniak_a]

@up

Blame BW for gimping your class then, sorc is all fun and games till you face half-decent sin/op/pt. Especially ap pt walks past sorc like it never happened, he just opens and if you have cc's on cd, you either bubble after few secs or die. I wouldn't dare sorc is weak class, but deff not as op as ppl claim all the time.

[King]

It's always the same. They see the big numbers at the end of 15min Voidstar zerg and then immediately assume the class with the highest overall damage dealt must be OP - unless they play that very same class, then the guy doing better than themselves is obviously cheating (but that's a different story).

 

What those numbers fail to tell and most people don't ask is how those were accrued. Was it single target dps or Aoe dps? Was it burst or was it DoT? Knowing how those big numbers are accrued is immensely important when judging whether a classes damage really is OP or not.

 

After having seen those big numbers, and not asking how they came to be, people then tend to think anything about this class got to be OP - especially after losing a 1v1 against that class. Afterall if you lose to this class, that class has to be overpowered, because it cannot be that your skill is just too bad for you to beat that class.

 

To pick up what Ancestry said, let me put it this way: The only class that can complain about the Sorc's / Sage's ability to kite is the Marauder. But then again the Marauder's can complain about any classes kiting abilities! For the other classes there is really no reason to complain about the Sorc / Sage kite abilities, especially not as Jugg, Sin, PT, or Oper. If you play with one of those classes against a sorc / sage and you lose then it is purely a skill issue but not a balance issue on your side.

 

I think the biggest issue is how much importance people place in the end game numbers of an 8v8. Who cares about damage, healing, or protection in an objective based match. This need to have "high" numbers leads to many incompetent objective based PvP players. People get so tunnel vision that they don't realize they need to score in hut ball or setup passes, cap a point or defend a point, survive and minimize kills in hyper gate.

 

If you care so much about stats then keep the argument within the realm of ranked PvP. While there are things that are frustrating about Sorcs in both Ranked and Unranked PvP, I do not believe they are better than any of the other strong classes. I say strong classes because jugs sins and pts can all be apart of this club. These classes also have very frustrating aspects to them if you break them down. Honestly we just need to get marauders snipers and mercs up to the same level of play. It's unfortunate that an underpowered class has to ask for 1-5 nerfs on other classes rather than asking for a buff to their own class. Eliminating parts to any or all of the "strong" classes would simplify PvP and dumb down the fighting, which is sickening and uncompetitive. We are trying to raise the bar of game play not bring it down to the weaker classes. Commandos slingers and sentinels need to be heard and given a slight increase to the complexity of their game play.

 

My background is having played the game at launch and now returning after a 2 year break. I am an avid PvPer, where I play a gunslinger, vanguard, and healing sage. I have consistently been playing ranked and Unranked PvP since 3.0 released and have found it to be in a much better state than 2 years ago. The complexity of each class makes it easy to see dominance from great players and failure from baddies.

 

People need to unify and push for balance for commandos sentinels and slingers rather than slowly lowering the bar class by class with unnecessary nerfs. We have come so far, please do not bring the game down a notch by asking for nerfs rather than buffs where needed.

[alexsamma]

I think the biggest issue is how much importance people place in the end game numbers of an 8v8. Who cares about damage, healing, or protection in an objective based match. This need to have "high" numbers leads to many incompetent objective based PvP players. People get so tunnel vision that they don't realize they need to score in hut ball or setup passes, cap a point or defend a point, survive and minimize kills in hyper gate.

 

If you care so much about stats then keep the argument within the realm of ranked PvP. While there are things that are frustrating about Sorcs in both Ranked and Unranked PvP, I do not believe they are better than any of the other strong classes. I say strong classes because jugs sins and pts can all be apart of this club. These classes also have very frustrating aspects to them if you break them down. Honestly we just need to get marauders snipers and mercs up to the same level of play. It's unfortunate that an underpowered class has to ask for 1-5 nerfs on other classes rather than asking for a buff to their own class. Eliminating parts to any or all of the "strong" classes would simplify PvP and dumb down the fighting, which is sickening and uncompetitive. We are trying to raise the bar of game play not bring it down to the weaker classes. Commandos slingers and sentinels need to be heard and given a slight increase to the complexity of their game play.

 

My background is having played the game at launch and now returning after a 2 year break. I am an avid PvPer, where I play a gunslinger, vanguard, and healing sage. I have consistently been playing ranked and Unranked PvP since 3.0 released and have found it to be in a much better state than 2 years ago. The complexity of each class makes it easy to see dominance from great players and failure from baddies.

 

People need to unify and push for balance for commandos sentinels and slingers rather than slowly lowering the bar class by class with unnecessary nerfs. We have come so far, please do not bring the game down a notch by asking for nerfs rather than buffs where needed.

 

It is a bit more complex than that though, most of the "strong" classes you mentioned shine in solo ranked and most of "weak" classes struggle in solo ranked, but once you put those "weak" classes in group ranked they shine.

 

Once hatred gets scaled back I think you'll find that almost every dps class is viable/strong in team ranked - be careful in asking for buffs to classes that are under performing in solo queue, in doing so you be forced to give up what makes the class strong in team ranked.

[King]

It is a bit more complex than that though, most of the "strong" classes you mentioned shine in solo ranked and most of "weak" classes struggle in solo ranked, but once you put those "weak" classes in group ranked they shine.

 

Once hatred gets scaled back I think you'll find that almost every dps class is viable/strong in team ranked - be careful in asking for buffs to classes that are under performing in solo queue, in doing so you be forced to give up what makes the class strong in team ranked.

 

That's fair, unfortunately I don't have enough friends to group queue so my observations do lack that perspective. But I would also argue that a class should not be pigeonholed into only being great when apart of a team, maybe a spec could be something that could be "very good" in ranked group only but every class should be able to have viability in solo ranked. I would be devastated if I only had my slinger for solo ranked because at the moment due to my lack of having a group to ranked PvP with that is my only option for competitive play. Every class should have at least decent options for all aspects of PvP. Solo ranked is the most available option for competitive PvP play for most players, therefore that should have priority over the health of group PvP. Maybe a possible fix for this is to have the "weaker" solo queue classes be classified as such, the same way a tank or healer would.

[foxmob]

That's fair, unfortunately I don't have enough friends to group queue so my observations do lack that perspective. But I would also argue that a class should not be pigeonholed into only being great when apart of a team, maybe a spec could be something that could be "very good" in ranked group only but every class should be able to have viability in solo ranked. I would be devastated if I only had my slinger for solo ranked because at the moment due to my lack of having a group to ranked PvP with that is my only option for competitive play. Every class should have at least decent options for all aspects of PvP. Solo ranked is the most available option for competitive PvP play for most players, therefore that should have priority over the health of group PvP. Maybe a possible fix for this is to have the "weaker" solo queue classes be classified as such, the same way a tank or healer would.

 

honestly -- and I LOVE solo queue -- they need to stop creating matches with only dps. I realize it will cripple queue times, but the fact of the matter is that the classes are not designed to solo. sorcs, sins and juggs just wreck the system. their innate abilities, playstyles, or w/e you want to call them cater directly to solo Q, and mercs, snipers are just fodder for them. the queue for solo rated shouldn't be any different from the queue for FPs in that sense: a healer, a tank, 2 dps. there are tanks. there are healers. thay're a necessary part of the meta. I know ppl don't wanna hear this, cuz it slows the pops (and nothing determines a match more than a disparity in heals or tanks). but dem's da faks.

[Galothor]

Finally some intelligent posts.

 

While I do agree that that mercs and maras need some buffs, I do not agree that snipers really need buffs. If they use their cds correctly it takes quite some time to kill them.

 

Also sorcs survivability is not a strong as most people suggest here. Don't get me wrong, I don't want say that sorc's are bad, but they are not as good as people claim they are. No other class takes higher hits than a sorc. Most other classes have a higher mobility, and have higher hitting attacks (these are often even instant). Any half-way decent Jugg, Pt, Sin, and Oper will kill a good sorc with fairly little effort. And in 1on1 situations even Mercs and Slingers have good chances of achieving this. The only one who is pretty much screwed is the mara. But I thing the mara needs more cc iimmunity rather than more defensive cooldowns.

 

The only 2 real issues I see with the sorc are:

1) current state of Force Storm

 

2) that they are forced to do AOE damage. This is not as much of any issue for Lightning as it is for Madness. While the AoE component of Chain Lightning can really be annyoing when it comes to cc the Lightning discipline as a whole still allows for decent (single target) dps. Madness players on the other hand are forced to spread their dots on as many targets as possible if they want to achieve decent (overall) dps. And in arena with only max. 4 targets the achieved dps is not or only a little bit higher than that of other class.

On first sight that might not look to bad, but the issue here is that the dps of the other classes is mostly burst and single target. That means they will have killed 1 or 2 players more before you kill you first. That's also the reason why sorcs drop dead when a pt, sin, oper walks past them. It is also one of the reasons why Hatred is so much superior to Madness, because Hatred got quite decent single target burst - and burst in general.

I think it is in the best interest of all, if the focus of the madness discipline is shifted more towards single target damage. It will reduce overall damage and selfheal, and it will make the Madness sorc competitive in terms of solo dps and 1on1. However, that doesn't mean they should simply drop the DoT spread. In fact they have to adjust various other things about damage output and self heal if you want the sorc to stay viable.

[Master-Nala]

honestly -- and I LOVE solo queue -- they need to stop creating matches with only dps. I realize it will cripple queue times, but the fact of the matter is that the classes are not designed to solo. sorcs, sins and juggs just wreck the system. their innate abilities, playstyles, or w/e you want to call them cater directly to solo Q, and mercs, snipers are just fodder for them. the queue for solo rated shouldn't be any different from the queue for FPs in that sense: a healer, a tank, 2 dps. there are tanks. there are healers. thay're a necessary part of the meta. I know ppl don't wanna hear this, cuz it slows the pops (and nothing determines a match more than a disparity in heals or tanks). but dem's da faks.

 

Your post is a bit of hyperbole, but you make a good point. These classes do excellently without significant support from healers because they can heal and or have DCDs that give them staying power. Operatives are in the same boat, although they have used some kind of mass mind control on the PvP forums to make people ignore how much healing and survivability they got in 3.0. PTs seem to have convinced everyone that they are a glass cannon in their heavy armor and various DCDs, but they do fine as well. They just do so much damage that they become a very high priority target.

 

Marauders, Mercs, and to a lesser extent Snipers while they are doing OK, just don't have the independence of the the above classes. Marauders rotate through their DCDs and that's pretty much it for them. Mercs got screwed in off-healing, losing their low-CD instant group heal and getting two weak instants to replace them with. Let's fix that and reassess.

[Galothor]

Marauders, Mercs, and to a lesser extent Snipers while they are doing OK, just don't have the independence of the the above classes. Marauders rotate through their DCDs and that's pretty much it for them. Mercs got screwed in off-healing, losing their low-CD instant group heal and getting two weak instants to replace them with. Let's fix that and reassess.

 

Amen!

Edited January 2, 2015 by Galothor

[King]

honestly -- and I LOVE solo queue -- they need to stop creating matches with only dps. I realize it will cripple queue times, but the fact of the matter is that the classes are not designed to solo. sorcs, sins and juggs just wreck the system. their innate abilities, playstyles, or w/e you want to call them cater directly to solo Q, and mercs, snipers are just fodder for them. the queue for solo rated shouldn't be any different from the queue for FPs in that sense: a healer, a tank, 2 dps. there are tanks. there are healers. thay're a necessary part of the meta. I know ppl don't wanna hear this, cuz it slows the pops (and nothing determines a match more than a disparity in heals or tanks). but dem's da faks.

 

This is an ideal kind of world type post. We are trying to improve overall quality of gameplay, which is highly impacted by queue times. While the sentiment has good intention, it would be a disaster. Best solution is still having a different classification within solo queues to have more properly balanced matches within DPS vs DPS.

[Saikochoro]

Your post is a bit of hyperbole, but you make a good point. These classes do excellently without significant support from healers because they can heal and or have DCDs that give them staying power. Operatives are in the same boat, although they have used some kind of mass mind control on the PvP forums to make people ignore how much healing and survivability they got in 3.0. PTs seem to have convinced everyone that they are a glass cannon in their heavy armor and various DCDs, but they do fine as well. They just do so much damage that they become a very high priority target.

 

Marauders, Mercs, and to a lesser extent Snipers while they are doing OK, just don't have the independence of the the above classes. Marauders rotate through their DCDs and that's pretty much it for them. Mercs got screwed in off-healing, losing their low-CD instant group heal and getting two weak instants to replace them with. Let's fix that and reassess.

 

 

I have to agree with you on this one. Well put. Haha operatives using mass mind control (its cause they are elite spies tricking people). Its true though we did get a ton of survivability and the heals are much better. Most don't want to admit it because they are angry over losing HS because they think we don't have burst anymore. Operatives may not be doing as well as the top four, but they arent the bottom three either. They are nice middle ground.

 

I really don't like sorcs. Even when I play them. I just don't. That being said if they don't change them at all, c'est la vie. Its not gonna make me quit or anything. Just more opportunity to post on the forums . But in all honesty they really need to throw a bone to mercs and marauders. That is more of a glaring issue to me (just less fun to post about because everyone agrees ).

[BadHoneyBadger]

Ok, I don't mind Sorcerers having massive Damage and CC............

 

However I do mind when Sorcerers have massive Damage, CC, AND an Immunity bubble? there is no reason any class should have all the candy in the basket!

 

If they're to get immunity bubbles, than they should have no force after it, and cannot heal also!

 

Lets be real people this is ridiculous!!

Sorcs are not the only ones that have this, just look at PT Tanks. They have a low health self heal, a pull, leap, 2 CC's, and if I'm not mistaken some abilities slow on hit such as flame sweep. Then on top of that lets give them and ability that gets rid of movement imparement, last 10ish sec, has a 30 sec Cooldown, outruns force speed and pred, oh and by the way we will give their shoulder cannon the ability to heal them for 20% (5% x 4 uses) of their HP and can spec into +15% more movement speed. And yes you can spec into all of this at the same time ( just looked at my tanking tree and utilities but play dps)

[LoganOleary]

Sorcs, PT, Sins with a Jugg or Op thrown in here or there, and those probably original players b4 Bioware buffed the crap out of the latter 3 classes. That's what you see in a WZ where you have solo queing players on Imp side. Why? because why would they play anything else but these PvP god classes? They don't want a challenge they want an " I win" button or 2, they simply want to kill as many other players as they can, and make sure it takes three or more to kill them...and if Sorc even that's a stretch as they have a full heal.

I have a Sorc myself and I use all of 3 abilties atm (given she's only lvl 23) and in PvP or PvE that's all I need. Bio really screwed up the PvP last patch, rly rly screwed it up. Stun Wars should be renamed.

Edited January 2, 2015 by LoganOleary

[Beakertanks]

All the people that try and defend sorcs crack me up. Talk about delusional. YOU ARE NOT THAT GOOD. YOUR CLASS IS BROKEN.

[King]

All the people that try and defend sorcs crack me up. Talk about delusional. YOU ARE NOT THAT GOOD. YOUR CLASS IS BROKEN.

 

I'd imagine that you are either a sentinel or just not very good. I don't play damage sorc or sage and I am adamant that they are not overpowered. Stop getting caught up in warzone "numbers" and just play the game. Terrible feedback is why the game had such a rough post-launch and made some bad changes. I am sick of people ************ and moaning seeking the unattainable in an already great game.

[durhame]

Everyone please. Just do as my sig says. Gear out your sorc and all of your alts via legacy armors and when or if the sorcs are changed you will have gear ready to go on your new FOTM. Rinse and repeat. I'm starting to think this is the way to play BWs game (or how they want you to play) in order to stick the SW theme and not lose your sanity. Edited January 2, 2015 by durhame

[Saikochoro]

Bad feed back goes both ways. I main an operative and was pretty adamant that healer ops were over the top compared to the other two healers. I could still kill healer ops just fine, but that did not defeat the fact that they were over the top even though many operatives proclaimed that they weren't. It doesn't matter if it's your main or not. Sorcs are over the top and most people see that. Just because you can still kill them doesn't mean they aren't. People could still kill juggs with ED. People could still kill op healers. There some sucky sorcs just like there are some sucky healers and juggs. I'm not so much concerned with the numbers. It is the sheer amount of tools they have, especially compared to the other ranged classes. If you are talking about fitting the same roles sorcs out class the other ranged DPS hands down no contest. Kinda like op heals out classed the other two healers. The debate between ranged and melee can play into too if you want. If a sorc is losing to a mara that sorc sucks. But leaving melee versus ranged out of it there is still a huge disparity between sorc DPS and the other ranged DPS. Anyone can see that.