Sentinel/Marauder Constructive Criticism

[LifeOfMessiah]

I keep seeing thread after thread about how the devs keep nerfing the best class in the game; how they keep messing with the mechanics, how they keep making it worse, or darn near impossible to play in PvP, etc, etc.

 

The problem is, that is all I hear, and I don't hear the specifics. I don't hear "Hey, this ability needs fixed, adjusted, or removed" or "sents should be able to do this or that."

 

I personally don't have a problem with the class. I do admit, I am not really that impressed with most of the utilities past tier 1, but I am a pretty easy guy to satisfy, and as long as I can work around something, I am fine.

 

However, in the spirit of helping the devs improve the gameplay of the sent/mara class, I would like to open this thread as an opportunity to not complain about the class, but offer constructive criticism.

 

If you honestly think something in the class needs fixed, improved, or changed, please share it here, and BE SPECIFIC. Don't just say "this sucks" or "put us back at this level" be constructive. Give ideas on what abilities you would like to see changed or added. What mechanics need fixed?

 

Please, don't just complain. It doesn't help the devs one bit if all you say is "Sents/Maras need fixed." It's just like going to a auto shop or computer repair shop. If all you tell them is it doesn't work, they may not find the problem, and give it back to you in the same condition you left it. .You have to tell that WHAT doesn't work. BE SPECIFIC.

 

I look forward to hearing all the wonderful ideas.

[Ridickilis]

You have to read more than just the thread titles. All the information is there, people just get tired of repeating themselves over and over again. The main theme is damage is fine, we need some protection from movement impairing (such as adding it to the utility for transendece for it's duration) and/or a second CC breaker (the heroic force camo utility sounds about right; can be used while stunned).

 

I would also wouldn't mind seeing a utility for DR on dot's and/or DR while stunned.

 

That's the root of the problem in pvp.

[calamatiesend]

See I don’t think our damage is fine….

 

We are broken in both PvE and Pvp in my opinion. While many talented mara/sents are putting up decent numbers in PvE it seems other classes can pull higher consistent numbers with less effort.. I’m seeing other parses around 4.5k some as high as 4.6 or 4.7 while many of our best seem to sit around 4.2 or 4.3k(maybe I am wrong and some ppl are pulling higher numbers but I have not seen post/parses yet.)

 

I am not a big PvE er and never have been but it seems to me that a class that can only dps should be as good if not better at it than those that can tank or heal or dps. I know the hybrid tax is not something that exists and that’s a good thing, but our utilities have been given to other classes…. So now we literally just bring dps and other classes can do it better. Our speed buff can be given by others, our dmg buff(unique reason to be brought to raids) is good but others have them now too.

 

We used to be saved by the fact that we did very very high dmg if we could stay on our target/attack. As melee this is tricky because we had to deal with short range aoe’s/cleaves and what not, but now we cannot compete with range classes even if we stay on target the entire time. Is this to say we have no place in any raid…. No but this is starting to get a little fishy.

 

Fixing this is pretty simple. Fix surge talents for anni and carnage specs, maybe add some small dmg bonuses to Fury.

Why does anni not have surge bonus for annihilate one of the main pieces of the spec?

Why does carnage not get surge bonus for ataru form crits or vicious throw? Both of which are key pieces of spec/dmg sources

Why does not one spec have a ravage bonus?? Maybe in Fury? Its these simple things that make me wonder *** the dev team for swtor is doing.

 

Just a comparison, AP PT has 6 skills that have a 30% surge bonus

Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Magnetic Blast, Thermal Det, Retract Blade, Energy Burst… all priority skills in the spec. It makes sense! Yet Carnage gets 30% on DB and mass and Anni gets 5% on dots…. Really?

 

Finally, we have PvP. Where lets be honest, we are garbage….. Anyone that says differently doesn’t play ranked or have delusions of grandeur since one time they pulled 2k dps with a pocket tank and healer against an unorganized opponent.

I can do everything on my shadow that I can do on my mara but better, faster and with 5x the survivability….. Fixing this is easy and should be a priority for you bioware.

 

1. Get rid of the crappy first level utilities and give us a gosh darn root break/movement immunity. My suggestion, tie it to force leap or make it camo but allow us to lower cd to 30 sec or so. My shadow is free of roots/slows/etc every 15 seconds for 2.5 seconds and gets speed…. You would think a truly melee dps needs something similar?

2. Un nerf GBtF/UD health gets taken away on use, during it a 40-50% healing debuff is placed on you. Make it 90” cd and remove utility to change cd, but add utility that allows it to be used when stun/cced

3. Give us deadly throw back with healing debuff, make it root for 3 seconds standard. So we can actually stay on our target!

 

Personally I want gore back to 4.5 seconds, but that might be overkill  at least with the above changes we can actually be useful/stay alive long enough/uncced enough to do some damage before we are bursted down.

 

Tl:dr

 

Fix the class, keep us in line with others and please for the love of god bring back some amount of survivability to the class in pvp. Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks.

 

-Dorren

Edited December 23, 2014 by calamatiesend

[LifeOfMessiah]

You have to read more than just the thread titles. All the information is there, people just get tired of repeating themselves over and over again. The main theme is damage is fine, we need some protection from movement impairing (such as adding it to the utility for transendece for it's duration) and/or a second CC breaker (the heroic force camo utility sounds about right; can be used while stunned).

 

I would also wouldn't mind seeing a utility for DR on dot's and/or DR while stunned.

 

That's the root of the problem in pvp.

 

I know the information is there. I do read more the the thread titles. The problem is that all the constructive criticism gets buried under piles of crap that only say "fix the class", so I am hoping we can use this thread to iron out ideas and give the devs ideas that they don't have to go searching through whiners and complainers to find the good stuff

[Ridickilis]

@Dorren ^^Alright, my mistake on pve and "damage is fine". I don't raid/parse so I'd be ignorant to any of the pve plights.

 

This is one thing I can kinda sympathize with the dev's on. If they give us too much freedom of movement in pvp then they probably won't buff our damage more. Then it becomes the usual threads in the pvp forums: mara/sents are OP, can't kill them, they do too much damage, yada-yada, etc. and so on.

 

If they buff damage more to accommodate pve, they can't give us too much more freedom of movement for pvp under the same "reasons" as above.

 

EDIT: I'm also talking from a combat/carnage perspective. I do know and have read some good threads regarding Anni/Watchman damage and how it could be better.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Ridickilis

[ishbindeinvater]

My Wishlist:

 

Anni

 

Rupture 6 sec dot again and a CD on rupture again

Crit heals 2% and not 1%

Probably but not necessarily add surge damage to annihilation or reduce rage cost by 1

 

Carnage

 

Don't play that spec but obviously the gore window has to be increased again. The problem is the amount of CC exist. Your burst is so easy to shut down. KB immunity to gore?

Higher damage to master strike or give the first 2 hits more damage

 

Fury

 

I prefer this tree so much on my juggernaut because of enrage. This is why I don't play it on my sent/marauder. But it seems to be fine when ...

 

... Common changes:

 

Deadly throw back as a 10m root

UR either a 3sec immunity to all or like pre nerf -50% life with activation but longer duration

Purge on any skill with a utility. For example force camo

Utility for a 30 sec force camo (then purge on UR)

Utility like fleetfooted but not only a remove of movement impairing effects but a immunity. Don't forget, when you hit predation instead of berserk, damage will be much lower.

[LifeOfMessiah]

@Dorian, you mention perhaps adding a root remover to force camo, but doesn't one of the selectable utilities already allow you to do that, or are most roots/snares/etc not cleansable?

[jeDaii-Oreo]

Nothing is overkill at the moment for marauders/sentinels.

 

-I think cloak of pain should cleanse movement impairing effects, make you immune to movement impairing effects as long it is active and increase movement speed by 50% (in addition to its current effects)..

 

-Tired of repeating this but give deadly throw back and make it root again in addition to its healing debuff..

 

- Modify UR/GBTF to its previous state.. or even completely remove the health reduction at this stage.. Or simply introduce Enraged Defense to Maras as well..

 

-Force Camo must have a proper purge effect.. and possibly take you out of combat..

 

Mara is my favorite class and I have all advanced classes and played all of them for a long time.. Seeing Marauders/Sentinels so below the food chain is very disappointing...

[calamatiesend]

@Dorian, you mention perhaps adding a root remover to force camo, but doesn't one of the selectable utilities already allow you to do that, or are most roots/snares/etc not cleansable?

 

One of them does do that, and I spec into it currently but its on a 45 sec cd and camo is one of our main DCD when focused. Using it just to remove a root that someone will reapply 10 seconds later is pretty costly unless I know I need to escape/gonna get focused. It should remove roots baseline and we should be able to spec it down to say 30 sec.... Mainly I just want something like what sins/shadows have that gives them a quick root/slow cleanse every 15-20 seconds so that classes cannot just keep applying roots and laughing as we cannot do any dmg and get stomped.

[DarthKate]

With all the complaints to Seppuku by the force....Lets throw out this idea.

 

SInce it is the 'My final breath im going to die button' from a thematic stand point

 

Why not increase its offensive capabilites to offset the fact that when you use it currently you are going to die, and you accept this and wish to finish your target before this happens.

 

my thoughts is on activation you become CC immune for the duration,movement speed greatly increased and a powerful surge increase. This way it is not a useless ability and it also isnt a lifesaver; its not supposed to be a lifesaver.And you get the 'Fighting to your last breath' theme that the ability goes for.

[LifeOfMessiah]

With all the complaints to Seppuku by the force....Lets throw out this idea.

 

SInce it is the 'My final breath im going to die button' from a thematic stand point

 

Why not increase its offensive capabilites to offset the fact that when you use it currently you are going to die, and you accept this and wish to finish your target before this happens.

 

my thoughts is on activation you become CC immune for the duration,movement speed greatly increased and a powerful surge increase. This way it is not a useless ability and it also isnt a lifesaver; its not supposed to be a lifesaver.And you get the 'Fighting to your last breath' theme that the ability goes for.

 

I like that idea. Guarded by the force just seems at the moment to be only an ability that delays the inevitable, and haven't really seen a use for it beyond combining it with other defensive capabilities to remove myself quickly from a scrap. It would be nice if it did increase offensive capabilities during that short time as well. One last "hurrah" before you give up the ghost.

[FerrixWGW]

I'll repeat my recommendations.

 

UR/GBTF make it an anti-focus ability. 4-5 sec duration that converts dmg to healing, like 50% -75% of dmg done. Front line dps...attackers can choose to counter it by not focusing us for the duration...just like Juggs and their ignore pain or whatever...would give some DOT survival as well.

 

Determination: baseline reduction to all CC by 50%, grants immunity from root/snares for 6-12 secs after they expire...stuns would still be subject to resolve...but our resolve bar empties 2x as slow as others.

 

Give us back Deadly Throw with root, and give us back the 2% dot crit heals.

[ElcorHamlet]

I see people suggesting ridiculous and drastic changes that are not needed or balanced (cleanse on rebuke, really?). There are really only a few simple changes that need to be made.

 

1. Guarded/Undying spends health at the beginning, just like it used to. Other than that, it stays the same.

 

2. Leg slash is removed from the game. Crippling throw is added back in with a 12 second cooldown, 12 second 50% snare, and 12 second trauma debuff. It costs 2 rage/focus.

 

3. Defensive forms is a passive talent, trainable at level 10.

 

4. Contemplation is a bottom tier perk, available to everyone at level 11.

 

5. Changes 3 and 4 mean that all specs can afford to pick up improved transcendence and 2 extra seconds on undying, which because of change number 1, is now a very strong cooldown.

 

That's it for general changes, now on to specs.

 

1. Watchmen. Twin saber throw (not sweep/smash) applies cauterize and force melt dots to all affected targets, as long as one of those targets is already affected by those dots. Twin saber throw also roots all affected targets for 1 second.

 

2. Combat. Precision lasts 4 seconds. Master strike is talented to deal 10% more damage, base damage of blade rush is reduced to compensate. This improves the bursty-ness of the spec, while keeping sustained damage the same for pve.

 

3. Concentration. The Koan ability grants a 10% damage buff to sweep and focused burst per stack, bringing the total damage buff to 30%. Base damage on zealous leap is reduced to compensate. Again, this improves the bursting ability of this class, while keeping sustained damage in check for pve.

[ElcorHamlet]

Oh, one more thing. Combat has access to a 3 second root on crippling throw. This gives all 3 specs access to a ranged root.

[calamatiesend]

I see people suggesting ridiculous and drastic changes that are not needed or balanced (cleanse on rebuke, really?). There are really only a few simple changes that need to be made.

 

1. Guarded/Undying spends health at the beginning, just like it used to. Other than that, it stays the same.

 

2. Leg slash is removed from the game. Crippling throw is added back in with a 12 second cooldown, 12 second 50% snare, and 12 second trauma debuff. It costs 2 rage/focus.

 

3. Defensive forms is a passive talent, trainable at level 10.

 

4. Contemplation is a bottom tier perk, available to everyone at level 11.

 

5. Changes 3 and 4 mean that all specs can afford to pick up improved transcendence and 2 extra seconds on undying, which because of change number 1, is now a very strong cooldown.

 

That's it for general changes, now on to specs.

 

1. Watchmen. Twin saber throw (not sweep/smash) applies cauterize and force melt dots to all affected targets, as long as one of those targets is already affected by those dots. Twin saber throw also roots all affected targets for 1 second.

 

2. Combat. Precision lasts 4 seconds. Master strike is talented to deal 10% more damage, base damage of blade rush is reduced to compensate. This improves the bursty-ness of the spec, while keeping sustained damage the same for pve.

 

3. Concentration. The Koan ability grants a 10% damage buff to sweep and focused burst per stack, bringing the total damage buff to 30%. Base damage on zealous leap is reduced to compensate. Again, this improves the bursting ability of this class, while keeping sustained damage in check for pve.

 

I agree with most of these but the dps changes are pretty meh. you decreased the overall dps of Combat since most of its damage comes from blade rush.... The 4 second precision window will help, still could be 4.5 wont change much. Mainly we need better mobility!

 

We need a way to cleanse roots that is not a dps hit, and trans/pred is a dps hit everytime. Gotta be something else

[Sarafain]

People are suggesting both a ranged root and improved mobility which is too much, Players still need to be able to escape just not with the consistant ease they do now. Also think of the cumulation of buffs you suggest, read through peoples posts and look at all they changes they're suggesting and then imagine how OP it would be if it went live.

 

The question should be what is the cause of the problems. Most agree it's mobility; that should be fixed first, then re-evaluate how the class is doing.

[ElcorHamlet]

I don't think mobility is a problem with the class, I think an over-abundance of roots is a problem with the game. There is absolutely no reason that all sorc and assassin specs should have access to a root on their knockback. It's completely overpowered and should not be in the game. If just my changes for sentinel were implemented, the class would certainly not be overpowered, but it would have better survivability and more quality of life from a damage output perspective.

[KarathAnno]

I want Annihilate to return to something closer to its old play-style and not be a semi-mirror of the Hatred Sin.

 

Specifically I would like to see Rupture reverted to a fast ticking, short duration DoT with some sort of reset mechanic. I would also like to see Force Rend turned into a more interesting skill then Creeping Terror minus the root.

 

Here is one idea that might be fun*.

 

Rupture

Weapon damage + 6 second DoT.

12 second CD, resets if the target dies while Rupture is active.

 

Force Rend

10-15 meter range

Force damage + it extends the duration of Rupture's DoT by 2 seconds.

12 Second CD, resets if you use Annihilate, Ravage, or Twin Saber Throw,

 

To keep max DPS you'd need to use Rupture once and then Force Rend three times, weaving Force Rend in with your other attacks to manage the cool downs and keep Rupture's DoT from dropping off. This also has no RNG element (which I heard is why Annihilation was reworked).

 

Force Rend has some range to it and can be reset by TST to help during movement phases and with kitting in PvP while Deadly Saber, Rupture, and Annihilate keep it a melee spec overall.

 

* This is just a very rough idea I've not worked out the rotation or anything.

Edited December 23, 2014 by KarathAnno

[Ramtar]

Start by renaming Sentinel: Weapon Master; next the devs need to break out Kotor II and see what a Weapon Master/Marauder was suppose to play like. Edited December 23, 2014 by Ramtar

[calamatiesend]

People are suggesting both a ranged root and improved mobility which is too much, Players still need to be able to escape just not with the consistant ease they do now. Also think of the cumulation of buffs you suggest, read through peoples posts and look at all they changes they're suggesting and then imagine how OP it would be if it went live.

 

The question should be what is the cause of the problems. Most agree it's mobility; that should be fixed first, then re-evaluate how the class is doing.

 

Do you play a sent or mara?

 

Why does my Shadow/sins get both a ranged root and a root break/movement impairment immunities on a 15 second cd and my mara cannot. This is the nonsense that needs to stop. We are melee dps, and have to stay on target. Other melee classes AP PT, sins, jugs all gained utilities to help them stay on their targets through cc, we need the same. All other classes have ranged roots/slows/cc as well as gained huge mobility buffs. We should either get tools of our own like this, or the others should be brought in line...

[Vodrin]

You have to read more than just the thread titles. All the information is there, people just get tired of repeating themselves over and over again. The main theme is damage is fine, we need some protection from movement impairing (such as adding it to the utility for transendece for it's duration) and/or a second CC breaker (the heroic force camo utility sounds about right; can be used while stunned).

 

I would also wouldn't mind seeing a utility for DR on dot's and/or DR while stunned.

 

That's the root of the problem in pvp.

 

That and undying rage/GBTF being somewhat underwhelming in it's current version.

[Atlanis]

What would be realistic for 3.1.:

 

Sentinel:

- Guarded by the Force no longer consumes Health. Ist CD has been increased too 2:30min.

- Leg Slash has been replaced by Crippling Throw. Crippling Throw now roots the target for 3s and applys a Trauma debuff.

- Saber Ward has its CD reduced to 2:00min (or maybe less?)

- Dual Wield Mastery has become a Base Class Talent. (Its that old Baseline Talent that at the moment only Combat Sents have)

Watchman:

- Merciless Zeal now grants you 2% of your Max HP for every critical hit of your Burn effects

 

(No it will not be overpowered given that your two big DoTs tick less often aka the healing is far more spred out. Buffing Zen would be a problem, due to far lower critical Hitchance, passives got nerfed and that one fokus tree talent got removed, it wouldnt be overpowered.)

 

Combat:

- Gains the Talent Jedi Pursuit. Force Leap now grants you 1,5s Immunity against Stuns, Sleeps and Knockdowneffects.

(Its to give you time to use Force Stasis:D You know Force Stasis Gore Masterstrike or something in that direction.)

 

Concentration:

- Concentrated Defense now also increases your DMG Reduction for 10% next to its other effects.

 

Utilites:

- Just Pursuit has been removed.

- Defiance has been moved to the Heroic Tier.

- Force Premotion has been added to the Skillful Tier. Force Leap and Double Saber Throw now grant Force Premotion for 3s. Force Premotion purges any movement inhebitting effects and grants immunity to movement inhebitting effects. This Effect may not occur more then once every 18s.

(It should not be used while stunned, its more like a "Eaten a Slow - Jump a Sorc - Profit")

- Zealous Ward has been changed, the internal CD of the healing effect has been removed.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Atlanis

[LifeOfMessiah]

I do believe we certainly need a better way to be able to stay on target. Currently, a Sent/Mara's only options are to slow them down either by leg slash or the utility that adds slow procs to some of our other abilities. I don't count master strike as a root, because it also roots us for the duration of the ability.

 

Cons/Sorcs are not the only class with a knockback & root ability. I believe the agent/smuggler also has a similar ability.

 

I agree that sents/maras definitely need a root ability. Perhaps adding to one of the abilities out there. Currently, it becomes very difficult in PvP to stay on target or even defend against root abilities. Sents/Mara's are the second target eliminated after healers in WZs.

 

It does appear the most of the criticisms are just for making the class more survivable/viable for PvP. Does anybody have anything for PvE?

[LifeOfMessiah]

What would be realistic for 3.1.:

 

Sentinel:

- Guarded by the Force no longer consumes Health. Ist CD has been increased too 2:00min.

- Leg Slash has been replaced by Crippling Throw. Crippling Throw now roots the target for 3s and applys a Trauma debuff.

- Saber Ward has its CD reduced to 2:00min (or maybe less?)

- Dual Wield Mastery has become a Base Class Talent.

 

Watchman:

- Merciless Zeal now grants you 2% of your Max HP for every critical hit of your Burn effects

 

Combat:

- Gains the Talent Jedi Pursuit. Force Leap now grants you 1,5s Immunity against Stuns, Sleeps and Knockdowneffects. (You still may be slowed, kicked away, pulled)

 

 

Concentration:

- Concentrated Defense now also increases your DMG Reduction for 10% next to its other effects.

 

Utilites:

- Just Pursuit has been removed.

- Defiance has been moved to the Heroic Tier.

- Force Premotion has been added to the Skillful Tier. Force Leap and Double Saber Throw now grant Force Premotion for 3s. Force Premotion grants immunity to movement inhebitting effects. This Effect may not occur more then once every 18s. (You still can be stunned and kicked away/pulled away!)

- Zealous Ward has been changed, the internal CD of the healing effect has been removed. (Yeah a h2full)

 

 

Just some thoughts.

 

1. Are you saying make Dual Wield Mastery base for Knight, or base for Sent? All Sents/Maras can already Dual Wield. Guardians just can't. That seems fine, considering Guardians are more a tank class than dps class. Now, if you want to make it base for Jedi Knight period, I am curious as to your reasoning behind that. If for lore, than make dual wield avaiable for all Jedi/Sith classes, as well as dual blade mastery. Other than for lore purposes, I don't see a game play reason for making dual wield a knight ability.

 

2. Giving Watchmans an additional healing buff would make them OP in the game. Outside healers, the Watchman, Annihilation spec can already be pretty decent healers when played well. I've even seen some beat out some amateur healers in PvP

 

3. GBTF not consuming any health would also be an OP issue. Maybe decrease health consumption down to 33/25%, leave CD as it is, or increase slightly, plus some minor offensive buffs. The ability is meant to be a last breath, F-U statement in a fight, but in it's current form is almost useless except when combined with other defensive buffs to escape a fight. Even then, if you don't do it right, you can die because of how much health it consumes.

 

4. I am not that familiar with the other two specs in the game, but I do remember back in the day that Focus/Concentration had some pretty awesome AoE hits after build up. That spec has probably been the most nerfed since the game first came out. I remember back in the early days of the game when you could give a smack down of 4k per hit with a fully loaded Force Sweep, and now it's barely 2k per hit. Though the build up to that 4k was long, it was extremely worth it, and I know if you were specced for it, PvP'ers would do everything they could to stay out of your way when you were ready to lay the smackdown! Now? Barely a whimper.

[Ailaria]

1. Are you saying make Dual Wield Mastery base for Knight, or base for Sent? All Sents/Maras can already Dual Wield. Guardians just can't. That seems fine, considering Guardians are more a tank class than dps class. Now, if you want to make it base for Jedi Knight period, I am curious as to your reasoning behind that. If for lore, than make dual wield avaiable for all Jedi/Sith classes, as well as dual blade mastery. Other than for lore purposes, I don't see a game play reason for making dual wield a knight ability.

 

Dual Wield Mastery is the skill in Combat that increases offhand damage by 25%. That skill used to be in tier 2 of Combat, but it was always part of the Watchman spec (at least in PvE). To be honest though, nowadays the only real argument for giving it to all the disciplines is lore, it simply makes no sense that only one of the disciplines would have mastered using two weapons.

 

Combat:

- Gains the Talent Jedi Pursuit. Force Leap now grants you 1,5s Immunity against Stuns, Sleeps and Knockdowneffects. (You still may be slowed, kicked away, pulled)

 

 

- Force Premotion has been added to the Skillful Tier. Force Leap and Double Saber Throw now grant Force Premotion for 3s. Force Premotion grants immunity to movement inhebitting effects. This Effect may not occur more then once every 18s. (You still can be stunned and kicked away/pulled away!)

 

 

 

Great suggestions overall, but these two stood out to me. I'm not sure if I see the point in the suggested talent for Combat, 1.5s doesn't help at all against skilled players unless it was only intended to give us time to Force Choke the target. It would have to be on par with the Juggernaut/Guardian equivalent to actually be useful.

 

Is Force Premotion intended to a) cleanse the roots/slows as well and b) be usable while rooted? If so, it needs to be stated separately, and if not, then putting that on DST seems relatively pointless.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Ailaria