3.0 Mercenary/Commando DPS by Hotwired

[Powerinfusion]

Do not add more power or mainstat by using augments.

 

Why not? Power continues to be the only stat that does not have DR. All the tertiary stats do.

[Gyronamics]

Why not? Power continues to be the only stat that does not have DR. All the tertiary stats do.

 

Because maths says that power is bad at increasing DPS even when it has no DR.

 

This even extends to using crit crystals instead of power crystals in your weapons.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

To put things into perspective, your Power when fully BiS 224 (which I am) will be 2931.

 

All your Crit/Accuracy/Alacrity added together only comes to 2784.

 

Reality is you don't have much in ANY of your tertiary stats while your power comes pre-stacked.

[Powerinfusion]

Because maths says that power is bad at increasing DPS even when it has no DR.

 

This "maths" is based on an assumption by the OP of the thread to which you refer that tertiary stats provide mysterious "multiplicative" bonuses, newly to 4.0. I asked the OP in two separate threads what was meant by this and did not receive an answer. He is telling everyone to throw out overkill augs and hawkeye crystals based on this assumption but does not provide support for it.

 

Theoretically, it does not make sense to load up on high amounts of critical when there is a continuous DR on it, meanwhile you are foregoing power, which does not have DR.

 

This post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=846804 provides the alternative view that power augs are preferred, which makes sense in concept. All you have to do is look at the graph provided Crit DR to see the steep DR on crit.

 

Augs and crystals are the only slots where you can choose between power and tertiary stats. It does not make sense to choose stats with DR over stats that do not.

[Gyronamics]

Riiight.

 

I'll start by saying that is very different material to my link and it has repeated disclaimers saying why it is different along the post and what it should not be used for.

 

You're using it for one of those things.

 

This is a PVE thread and unless someone requests otherwise all discussion is about PVE dps.

 

You probably get where this is going now but you are linking to a "big hits" assassin PVP gearing thread. So straight off the bat it is a build with ZERO alacrity, ZERO accuracy and EVERY enhancement already stacked with Critical which means starting at 1370 critical rating. Which would be high even for PVE.

 

From that position of starting at 1370 critical rating he proceeds to add ANOTHER 1022 critical rating.

 

So you end up with the galactic amount of 2392 critical rating and it's not a big surprise when he says that adding that extra 1022 crit when DR was already kicking in was a bad idea.

 

As I said just before your post, the total PVE budget for critical/accuracy/alacrity (or power/mastery) with 224 BiS is 2784. The scenario being demonstrated in your link cannot be compared to a PVE build at all.

[Powerinfusion]

OK, disregard the link. This still does not explain why it is being recommended that people not use augs and crystals for power, as if you have too much already. This does not make sense due to the fact that power has no DR.

 

The claim right off the bat in Goblin Lackey's post is that the tertiary stats now have "multiplicative" bonuses and therefore are inherently preferred over power, and that you should no longer use overkill augs or hawkeye crystals. There is no mathematical support for this argument that I have seen. He also is very clear that his optimal stat assumptions are based purely on a (very complicated) mathematical model and not simulation. I am merely stating that from a theoretical standpoint, it does not make sense to choose stats that have diminishing returns over a stat that does not.

[Gyronamics]

Because diminishing returns doesn't mean worse. All the stats with DR are better than power for the entire low range and you don't get enough of them to leave those better-than-power levels.

 

You will get into the wrong end of DR if you stack for example... over 2000 crit but there isn't the budget for it.

 

I already said the total you have available is 2784 which you can allocate.

 

~700 is automatically taken for accuracy, this varies on whether you spec slightly over or under 110%.

 

You then have a bit over 2k left for alacrity and critical with a bias of a few hundred towards critical.

 

And there we have it, no mystery. We simply do not hit DR enough for Power to overtake the tertiary stats.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Gyronamics

[Powerinfusion]

There's plenty of mystery. If there is 2k+ for critical/alacrity, and you forego power for sake of these stats, you most certainly are hitting DR. You hit DR with the very first point, and it gets worse and worse with every point put in. You are taking all your assumptions from a post that derives conclusions based solely on a mathematical model and not simulation.

 

By all means, if bosses are being downed given the stats distributions being used by your guild, then there is no reason to change. I get it, that's the bottom line. This is simply a theoretical argument that power may not be as "bad" as what is being stated.

[Gyronamics]

You're not getting this at all.

 

You do not reach the point where they become worse than power with the amount of stats available.

[Powerinfusion]

There is no proof as such.

[Gyronamics]

You asked my source for information.

 

You got an answer.

 

If you can understand the calculation then you need to go and tell him where he's going wrong if you know otherwise.

 

That thread you believed didn't say what you thought it said so if you have nothing else and can't/don't want to do some calculations yourself it would be great if you stopped trying to argue.

 

There is nothing stopping you from stacking all the power you want but if you come to this thread and ask me I will tell you not to do that until someone with credibility demonstrates otherwise.

[Powerinfusion]

I said:

OK, disregard the link.

 

And I did post in Goblin Lackey's thread with the same point I am making now which is that making assumptions and conclusions based solely on a mathematical model, in lieu of determining actual results via simulation, is a mistake. Nothing you have said here has provided any evidence of anything other than deferring to his post. The caution is that for people who have gone out and stacked power, the conclusion that overkill augs and hawkeye crystals should never be used is not yet fully supported anywhere by actual consistent, average parsing results over a long period of time, at least that I have seen, since 4.0 launch.

[Gyronamics]

I said:

 

 

And I did post in Goblin Lackey's thread with the same point I am making now which is that making assumptions and conclusions based solely on a mathematical model, in lieu of determining actual results via simulation, is a mistake. Nothing you have said here has provided any evidence of anything other than deferring to his post. The caution is that for people who have gone out and stacked power, the conclusion that overkill augs and hawkeye crystals should never be used is not yet fully supported anywhere by actual consistent, average parsing results over a long period of time, at least that I have seen, since 4.0 launch.

 

Anyone going out and stacking power is a robot who was carrying on doing the same thing they were told to do in 3.0.

 

If listening to the guys doing calculations in 3.0 was good enough then there's something very wrong when all of a sudden stats are rebalanced and its time to have an opinion based on the fact that yesterday power was the thing to stack so why not today.

 

There are flaws in every kind of dps measurement either physical parsing or calculated and it is important to know how a number was arrived at and what it doesn't represent.

 

But turning up to disagree because you don't understand, have no proofs and don't want to do any work on it.

 

Why even bother?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Gyronamics

[Powerinfusion]

Why even bother?

 

I bother because I find it an interesting discussion. I'm not on here for the sole sake of disagreeing with people or to cause grief. I challenge the norm, I do not necessarily submit to common practice; it is my nature.

 

I've made my points, the reader can take or leave them. As I said if your guild is downing bosses then that is what is important above and beyond anything else.

[Samuraiwillz]

and another question this is a more over all classes but you will probably be able to answer this which mods are better the 220 crystal mods or the token 216 mods cause there is a big difference in how much power you get from them

 

** edit* answered own question BIS mods are all unlettered mods

Edited December 1, 2015 by Samuraiwillz

[Solid_Jake]

New player looking to roll Commando DPS. How different is this guide now that 4.0 is out? I am not looking for massive info. Just rotation stuff mainly. Gearing and such comes much later for me.

[Gyronamics]

New player looking to roll Commando DPS. How different is this guide now that 4.0 is out? I am not looking for massive info. Just rotation stuff mainly. Gearing and such comes much later for me.

 

Rotations didn't change and generally you'll want to be in Gunnery because Assault isn't doing more damage for the extra hassle it causes.

[Powerinfusion]

http://dulfy.net/2015/12/02/swtor-4-0-mercenary-dps-pve-guide-by-marisi/

[jadjay]

I know this is a 3.0 guide and the Op may not even be playing the game anymore but i have a question.

 

I picked up this rotation when i started out as IO in 3.0 as this guide made more sense than the dulfy one and it seemed more mobile to me because you didnt use back to back casts on powershot. But now that ive started parsing alot more in 4.0 ive noticed im like the only one using it. All other parses use the dulfy rotation. Is there something im missing? Is there a reason i should be using that rotation over this one?

[Lalainnia]

I know this is a 3.0 guide and the Op may not even be playing the game anymore but i have a question.

 

I picked up this rotation when i started out as IO in 3.0 as this guide made more sense than the dulfy one and it seemed more mobile to me because you didnt use back to back casts on powershot. But now that ive started parsing alot more in 4.0 ive noticed im like the only one using it. All other parses use the dulfy rotation. Is there something im missing? Is there a reason i should be using that rotation over this one?

 

More ppl prob check dulfy instead of the forums is my guess.

[Gyronamics]

Visibility reasons only.

 

Dummies do not put any pressure on you to move but in a standing parse there should not be a meaningful difference in damage done.

[sevenfaced]

Visibility reasons only.

 

Dummies do not put any pressure on you to move but in a standing parse there should not be a meaningful difference in damage done.

 

I disagree with this statement for several reasons. Primarily because your rotation does not take advantage of the new IO buff very well while the zorz rotation does. You only have one set power shot in your rotation which means during any time you are not heat ramping you only take advantage of the power shot buff once and wasting a large number of stacks in the process. I also believe your opener to be suboptimal because anytime you seperate dots in your rotation you either do not have 100% uptime or you are forced to clip your dots at some point.

[Gyronamics]

Your analysis is too simple.

 

There is a tradeoff in the use of Power Shot instead of Thermal Detonator in the core rotation, the immediate tradeoff is that PS does vastly less damage for the cost even after considering that 1 extra use in a non-filled rotation is 1/10 extra Supercharge and therefore in the long run that individual PS is only costing 14 since Supercharged Gas refunds 10 on use.

 

So what's the point?

 

The point is that you get to use Supercharged Gas slightly more often. It buffs DoT and provides its own burn.

 

However in 4.0 what happened was the duration of SCG was cut from 10 to 8s along with the Supercharged Burn losing approximately 30% of its damage when compared with damage scaling on other abilities at 65.

 

On top of Combustible Gas Cylinder DoT losing 20% from a damage perk and all elemental damage losing a 2% damage perk, extending to Incendiary Missile DoT.

 

To sum up, SGC got kicked in the nuts and this rotation relies on the more frequent bonuses from generating SGC to compensate for the Power Shot vs Thermal Detonator trade.

 

 

But you were unaware of this as you believe it was a non-loss gain to bank the bonus of 1% to a max of 10% bonus on the next Power Shot slightly more often in a non-filled rotation.

 

Net result: **** all.

 

I stand by the simple differentiation of the rotation in this thread being more mobile and not making other claims.

 

 

Not that I make an effort anymore to play dotspec, I have said consistently since 4.0 landed that it is the inferior spec in all fights of relevance after it lost the large advantage in single target which means it is now useful for almost nothing.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Gyronamics

[sevenfaced]

Can i ask for a link to a parse where your rotation is executed perfectly? My main problem with your claiming that the rotation matches/exceeds the zorz rotation is that i see no evidence of that, I don't see your rotation on any leader boards unless you can point me to them. From what i recall though is that the rotations similar to yours tend to have quite a few more rapid shots in them, which would offset the gain of using thermal det on cooldown(I could be wrong on this point its just something I recall from when i was researching rotations in 3.0)

[Gyronamics]

You wake me up to get me to sell a fully explained rotation to you.

 

Not "I have made an effort to use this rotation and think X" but "I have been using this other rotation and think X about yours".

 

Well gee, I'm feeling in the mood to spend hours spamming parses to put up against hot leaderboard parses after that.

 

On the other hand if you do it yourself you will know your standard output on either, bypassing the cheesy game of leaderboard parses.

[sevenfaced]

My request has nothing to do with you putting up a top leaderboard parse I want to see your activations of abilities specifically how many rapid shots you use in comparison to the zorz rotation. So like one perfectly executed rotation would work fine the actual dps/ttk doesn't matter.