How to beat a guardian/juggernaut?

[antiheroxi]

So I recently came back to the game and have been loving the sentinel. Cant place my finger on why but it just clicked with me to the point its the only thing i really wish to play at the moment. And for how little i have been back i do feel i am starting to get the hang of it, can compete decently vs most other classes but guardians and juggernauts just yeah...

 

granted im lvl 36 as i type this so i just entered a new bracket in which 9/10 i get killed before i can hit a keybind. but in the one off chance i do run into a comparable lvl juggernaut or guardian i just cant for the life of me figure out how to kill them. the good ones just seem to force push -> leap -> force choke and while im force choked just open up a can of whoop *** on me. If i happen to hold my break till force choke they seem to just duke it out then heal to full and reset the engagement with me force choked twiddling my fingers while i get wailed on.

 

I mean really is there a good strat to killing these monsters? even in a dps race it doesnt seem as if i do any significant amount of dmg more then him to account for my lower armor value, lack of heal to full, lack of being able to hold someone and beat on them (force stasis just seems to break in 1 second for us after using another ability) etc. i do not want to re-roll but this is really frustrating that the tank hybrid does equal burst or sustain depending on spec all while being infinitely more unkillable. i seem to remember when i last played they had the infinitely higher defensives but traded for it by being lower on the dps a bit. what happened?

 

also maybe someone can explain this.... but... how is it the acrobatic school has the least acrobatic skill of all three trees? watchmen does flips that light people on fire and can jump more often, while concentration gets two jumps to combats one.... i mean for all ataru being the acrobatic offensive stance it seems to miss out on every acrobatic skill or boost.

[jeDaii-Oreo]

Hi

 

Well to summarise it, they have better defensive cds and their damage is not too bad..In other words, they have every tool to completely prevent you from killing them (they don't even need to be too skillful).

 

However, it is posible solo kill them by watching their buff bar carefully and playing accordingly and wisely.. several things you need to be highly aware of:

1) enraged defense - it has 10 stacks and heals them for a decent amount every time they take damage... In solo situations, I avoid that 10 seconds by using my force camo and intimidating roar -- But I play carnage, so I don't have any dots ticking on them.. This ability alone is enough to make them an op class..

 

Note: Endure pain + a medpack gives them almost a full life from scratch and some additional damage reduction if they are playing vengeance/vigilance spec...

 

2) Saber reflect: This ability basically blocks all single target direct attacks back to you when you attack them, although the damage is capped.. (it usually lasts 3 seconds, but now dps can also take a utility and increase the time to 5 seconds.. So if you attack them with a direct attack -say ravage or devestating blast, you will not damage them.. Aoe attacks are the best choice here no matter what class you're playing.. .

 

3) Your obfuscate and saber ward: Obfuscate is very good against a jugg/guard.. especially vengeance/vigilance specs since most of their damage is provided by weapon damage.. I think the optimal time to apply the obfuscate to the target is the final tick of their ravage/master strike.. Same applies for saber ward - if possible activate saber ward when the 3rd hit of ravage is about to be delivered..

The actual damage of ravage/master strike comes from the final (3rd) hit -- so you will be completely avoid that and will be able avoid some of the following attacks..

 

4) Pop your cloak of pain as soon as you engage.. I usually pop my warzone adrenal at around 65-70% health..

 

5) Only use your undying rage at low levels and go berserk.. try to pop a medpack when the healing debuff kicks in..

 

Finally, the reason they typically have more overall damage at the end of a warzone, is because people often avoid juggs/guards and go for easier targets... so they end up freely running around and dpsing players.. Their damage is good, but not as good as marauder/sentinel actually...

 

 

I'm sure I am missing out many things here.. but hope this will help re-thinking or designing your game style as a Mara/sentinel..

 

Oh and - keybind your abilities.. mouse is for turning and moving.. not clicking abilities.

[Atlanis]

Well simply said, if the Guardian is an idiot you will win.

 

If he knows he has SR and ED, you will loose.

[antiheroxi]

ill try and keep my eye out for those thank you for the tips. hopefully i can make the fight a little less one sided that way.

 

Oh and i haven't mouse clicked abilities in ages. love my g-series gaming mouse and keyboard

[Ridickilis]

1) enraged defense - it has 10 stacks and heals them for a decent amount every time they take damage... In solo situations, I avoid that 10 seconds by using my force camo and intimidating roar -- But I play carnage, so I don't have any dots ticking on them.. This ability alone is enough to make them an op class..

 

This is a good strat. And yeah never ever dot a jugg when this is up. However if you don't have camo or roar up, you can still attack them, just make sure they're heavy hitters. If you hit them for, let's say 4k or more on a single attack, he'll still be upside down in the heal-to-damage race. About 3k-3.5k is going to be the max (on a crit) they're going to get per heal back. For instance in carnage, if you had slaughter and execute procs up and popped berserk with a gore > vicious throw > scream, it will still hurt. Of course, yeah, the safe bet is waiting it out.

 

2) Saber reflect: This ability basically blocks all single target direct attacks back to you when you attack them, although the damage is capped.. (it usually lasts 3 seconds, but now dps can also take a utility and increase the time to 5 seconds.. So if you attack them with a direct attack -say ravage or devestating blast, you will not damage them.. Aoe attacks are the best choice here no matter what class you're playing.. .

 

This is actually inaccurate. Saber reflect does not affect melee weapon damage.

 

"Reflects all direct single target ranged, Force, and tech attacks back to the attacker for 3 seconds."

 

Ravage, vicious slash, merciless slash, massacre, ataru procs, retaliate, sweeping slash.... any "white damage" attacks from us shouldn't be reflected as they're considered melee weapon attacks.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ridickilis

[jeDaii-Oreo]

This is actually inaccurate. Saber reflect does not affect melee weapon damage.

 

My mistake.. It was quite late when I posted this.. thanks for pointing out

[Rawbee]

This is the type of post I like to see in our Class Forums!

Keep it up and one day I will survive a Death match.

[ishbindeinvater]

Sorry to say that, but against someone not braindead, you WILL lose.

 

They can all do what you can do, just better.

 

If you are annihilation, no chance. Your dots will heal him to full with enraged defense and you can not not dot him.

 

Overall, saber reflect, enraged defense, endure pain, the shared defense (saber ward, intimidating roar, force choke), force push with a second leap and the difference that he will swim in rage and you starve.

 

When he plays vengeance he will jump to you, highly damage you and you can't do anything but hit your DCDs early to avoid some (obfuscate, saber ward, cloak of pain) because he is immune to CC for 4 seconds. Then he will force push you and is immune another 4 seconds, you must use some other DCDs he still has all. If you strike back he has just sooo many CDs to negate all. Endure Pain + Med Pack is a 60% heal. When he hits Endure Pain and Adrenal he has +40% additional mitigation to already roughly 25, that's about 65% for a while. When you believe you have him down, he pops Enraged Defense and will heal up to nearly full in most circumstances. Its like 3 lifes against 1 life while doing similar damage and you need more skill. ... It's an uphill battle which you can only win when you are.... No, you can't win. Too much yellow damage in rage damage which would get reflected by 5 sec saber reflect. Too many mid damage skills in carnage spec which doesn't do well against enraged defense, and your hard hitters can be reflected or avoided (gore + master strike vs force choke,...., saber ward,...) and well, annihilation, his ED will love it.

 

I play both of them and it's like day and night in warzones. Still like playing marauder more.

[Hei_Atzfel]

Saber reflect: This ability basically blocks all single target direct attacks back to you when you attack them, although the damage is capped.. (it usually lasts 3 seconds, but now dps can also take a utility and increase the time to 5 seconds.. So if you attack them with a direct attack -say ravage or devestating blast, you will not damage them.. Aoe attacks are the best choice here no matter what class you're playing.. .

 

Saber reflect will only reflect ranged, force, and tech damage. Melee damage goes right through it. In other words, abilities such as Massacre, Ravage, Vicious Throw, Annihilate, etc etc, will all go through Reflect. Even when that happens, you will still hear the sound that reflect makes, making you THINK that your attack got reflected at you, but it didn't. Any melee attack that puts a WHITE damage number over the person's head will go through reflect unaffected.

[ishbindeinvater]

Saber reflect will only reflect ranged, force, and tech damage. Melee damage goes right through it. In other words, abilities such as Massacre, Ravage, Vicious Throw, Annihilate, etc etc, will all go through Reflect. Even when that happens, you will still hear the sound that reflect makes, making you THINK that your attack got reflected at you, but it didn't. Any melee attack that puts a WHITE damage number over the person's head will go through reflect unaffected.

 

Is VT a melee attack?

[Ridickilis]

Saber reflect will only reflect ranged, force, and tech damage. Melee damage goes right through it. In other words, abilities such as Massacre, Ravage, Vicious Throw, Annihilate, etc etc, will all go through Reflect. Even when that happens, you will still hear the sound that reflect makes, making you THINK that your attack got reflected at you, but it didn't. Any melee attack that puts a WHITE damage number over the person's head will go through reflect unaffected.

 

It was late when he posted it but he still thanks you for the correction.

 

Not that we didn't already go over this a couple hours ago....

 

Is VT a melee attack?

 

I didn't include it in my list and the tooltip just says delivers "energy damage" but it's still white damage. I want to say yes, this is considered "melee" as is twin saber throw. I don't believe we have any attacks that are considered "ranged" as in use the ranged tab on our character sheet.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Ridickilis

[jeDaii-Oreo]

It was late when he posted it but he still thanks you for the correction.

 

Not that we didn't already go over this a couple hours ago....

 

Who is ''you'' here ?

 

I only thanked you for taking your time and correcting my mistake describing the attacks reflected by saber reflect...

[HanSollo]

How to beat a Jugg? Roll GSer

[Ridickilis]

Who is ''you'' here ?

 

I only thanked you for taking your time and correcting my mistake describing the attacks reflected by saber reflect...

 

The member Hei_Atzfel was "you" in that post. He quoted your post and pointed out the same mistake a couple hours after we, (you and I), followed up on it. I was just pulling his leg for not paying attention to the rest of the thread and that we had already moved on. Just a failed attempt at humor on my part, sorry about that.

[Ailaria]

Is VT a melee attack?

 

All lightsaber classes only do melee and force attacks, all other classes only do ranged and tech attacks. The wording is a bit confusing, I'll grant you that, but all our throws are melee, and attacks like Shiv and Rocket Punch are tech even though they may feel like melee attacks.

[antiheroxi]

although i am getting better at timing my abilities and basically cc'ing myself when i see that heal buff go up they still seem insurmountably hard for at least myself. Although lately for better or worst (im leaning on worst) all i have ran into on my lvl up to max has been teams of straight sorcs / sins in which i spend the entireity of the game twiddling my fingers after what feels like the 100th knock back root or stun.

 

quite honestly the 30-59 bracket has been insanely discouraging so far as a sent in general. for the amount of uptime i seem to have on targets the dmg is severely lackluster. if the class is going to be doomed to sitting in cc all day twiddling our thumbs it feels like we should be absolutely monsterous for that 2 seconds we aren't locked but instead i end up reaching them to find their defensive cool down get popped that keeps them alive or immortal long enough for the cc chain to start again.

 

idk as a returning player the class in general right now has felt weaker and weaker the higher i go so im praying the 50's change my view but atm im teetering on restarting something else just so i can enjoy the experience. i love the sent feel and playstyle but the higher i go the less i get to actually feel that as cc becomes ever more present.

[Saikochoro]

:eek:

 

OP has smuggler avatar too Atlanis. What are we going to do about this?

[Saikochoro]

To OP:

 

So I'm guessing your a carnie right? As level 36 you are going to have a hard time. It will get easier as you get higher level. You don't have gore yet or vicious throw. Some general tactics I use:

 

If I have all my cooldowns I will pop saber ward and cloak of pain when they leap at me. Provides pretty good damage reduction. I will the. Immediate gore and start ravaging them. It's their problem if they don't want to run away. If they decide the don't want to take the full ravage they will probably push you. That's good. They will then leap and attempt to reset ravage again while cc immune. Saber ward and cloak of pain should still be up. Take shatter and the first tick or two of ravage, then choke them. Use rage builder and massacre spam them till you get procs for throw and scream/debaststing blast. Since gore doesn't have an animation anymore you can prolly get gore plus scream or throw off before they choke you. After choke you should have full resolve. Your defenses will be down by then. Continue fighting them and hope they pop ED. Camo as soon as they do and run around. Preferably line of sight them so they can't leap at you and have to run up to you. You want them to waste ED while not attacking them. Next time they leap ravage use obsfucate since it will most likely make ravage not hit. You will probably have ravage back up by now. So gore ravage again. Throw in a scream and throw and it might be enough burst to take them down. Oh and before you do that last combo hit berserk so it all goes off fast.

 

Versus rage: when you see them leaping at you pop a cooldown as soon as possible because they will use raging burst on you. Most likely followed up by furious strike. Those two hit hard. Attack them the same as vengeance juggs. They want to stay in close range too. Gives you perfect excuse to gore ravage them. When they put force crush on you crush on you camo out so the can't use raging burst on you again. If you are low and they are setting up raging burst again use undying rage. Choke them when you can and use berserk gore ravage scream throw.

[Saikochoro]

It's kinda hard to win versus a jugg. You ever see the movie Twins? Juggs are Arnold Schwarzenegger and maras are Danny DeVito. Edited December 24, 2014 by Saikochoro

[antiheroxi]

To OP:

 

So I'm guessing your a carnie right? As level 36 you are going to have a hard time. It will get easier as you get higher level. You don't have gore yet or vicious throw. Some general tactics I use:

 

If I have all my cooldowns I will pop saber ward and cloak of pain when they leap at me. Provides pretty good damage reduction. I will the. Immediate gore and start ravaging them. It's their problem if they don't want to run away. If they decide the don't want to take the full ravage they will probably push you. That's good. They will then leap and attempt to reset ravage again while cc immune. Saber ward and cloak of pain should still be up. Take shatter and the first tick or two of ravage, then choke them. Use rage builder and massacre spam them till you get procs for throw and scream/debaststing blast. Since gore doesn't have an animation anymore you can prolly get gore plus scream or throw off before they choke you. After choke you should have full resolve. Your defenses will be down by then. Continue fighting them and hope they pop ED. Camo as soon as they do and run around. Preferably line of sight them so they can't leap at you and have to run up to you. You want them to waste ED while not attacking them. Next time they leap ravage use obsfucate since it will most likely make ravage not hit. You will probably have ravage back up by now. So gore ravage again. Throw in a scream and throw and it might be enough burst to take them down. Oh and before you do that last combo hit berserk so it all goes off fast.

 

Versus rage: when you see them leaping at you pop a cooldown as soon as possible because they will use raging burst on you. Most likely followed up by furious strike. Those two hit hard. Attack them the same as vengeance juggs. They want to stay in close range too. Gives you perfect excuse to gore ravage them. When they put force crush on you crush on you camo out so the can't use raging burst on you again. If you are low and they are setting up raging burst again use undying rage. Choke them when you can and use berserk gore ravage scream throw.

 

I am actually 45 now as of today. i have been lvling like mad the best i can. And to the origianl i never changed my avatar but.... my original toon was a gunslinger way back when. Also i have been bouncing around every 5 lvls so i can really know my specs or rather once i settle on one know how the others play to better fight off them. So far though im mostly concentration or combat in pvp.

 

whenever i play annihilation/watchmen i can do dmg and even top boards but i never kill anything and i know at least half is from dots that were easily healed through.

 

but your general strat sounds similar to what i do. although i am still having blunder moments where i space out force stasis. but i will try to fine tune to what you listed and see how it goes. as i said i am really loving sentinel but the minute i leave pve for pvp (i truly do love pvp more im just lvling) i feel like the whipping boy that unlike a GS that can at least hide out of the picture a bit i am running head long into the devil

[Moosestick]

. as i said i am really loving sentinel but the minute i leave pve for pvp (i truly do love pvp more im just lvling) i feel like the whipping boy that unlike a GS that can at least hide out of the picture a bit i am running head long into the devil

Recently came back after 2 years. If you like the playstyle, keep with it. @60 I feel similar to what I did a few years ago, just have to play catch-up with casters a little harder, and accept that a non-tard sin/pt will global me. Though I am playing carnage.

[Juithtin]

So I recently came back to the game and have been loving the sentinel. Cant place my finger on why but it just clicked with me to the point its the only thing i really wish to play at the moment. And for how little i have been back i do feel i am starting to get the hang of it, can compete decently vs most other classes but guardians and juggernauts just yeah...

 

granted im lvl 36 as i type this so i just entered a new bracket in which 9/10 i get killed before i can hit a keybind. but in the one off chance i do run into a comparable lvl juggernaut or guardian i just cant for the life of me figure out how to kill them. the good ones just seem to force push -> leap -> force choke and while im force choked just open up a can of whoop *** on me. If i happen to hold my break till force choke they seem to just duke it out then heal to full and reset the engagement with me force choked twiddling my fingers while i get wailed on.

 

I mean really is there a good strat to killing these monsters? even in a dps race it doesnt seem as if i do any significant amount of dmg more then him to account for my lower armor value, lack of heal to full, lack of being able to hold someone and beat on them (force stasis just seems to break in 1 second for us after using another ability) etc. i do not want to re-roll but this is really frustrating that the tank hybrid does equal burst or sustain depending on spec all while being infinitely more unkillable. i seem to remember when i last played they had the infinitely higher defensives but traded for it by being lower on the dps a bit. what happened?

 

also maybe someone can explain this.... but... how is it the acrobatic school has the least acrobatic skill of all three trees? watchmen does flips that light people on fire and can jump more often, while concentration gets two jumps to combats one.... i mean for all ataru being the acrobatic offensive stance it seems to miss out on every acrobatic skill or boost.

 

Most of the guys covered everything, but I just want to add in a couple things;

 

Pacify/Obfuscate: is the MOST useful ability we have for dealing with Juggs (particularly Vengeance/Vigilance). I usually pop it during their first ravage. (Which most people use after they leap due to Unstoppable making you immune to cc for 4(?) seconds)

 

Rebuke/Cloak of Pain: Pop it the minute you get into combat

 

Stasis/Choke: Never use this the minute they leap to you. I save it to interrupt their Ravage/MS that isn't protected by Unstoppable/Unremitting

 

Force Camo; People might disagree with me on this, but I use it to interupt a ravage the minute it starts ticking if Stasis/Pacify are on cooldown

 

Warzone Adrenal: Reduces damage by 20% (or 25 - can't remember off the top of my head) - I usually hit this the minute Rebuke/CoP is finished.

 

Saber Ward: I hit this if I get down to about 60% health

 

Guarded by the Force/Whatever the Imp version is: Pop this when you're nearly dead - beat him once again, just as it's about to finish hit Awe and use a medpac at the end of GbtF.

 

If you play watchman and he's loaded with dots and he's popped ED/FD - Leg Slash him. As far as I know, the Trauma debuff will mitigate some of his healing. But in the end, it just comes down to doing more damage than him inbetween your defensives. If you can get him to burn either ED or Enure (forgot the imp name) and a medpac while you still have most of your dcds available, you're in a good spot.

 

And in regards to your last part; it is a bit ironic that the specc that should have the most mobility has the least. Anyway, good luck with it. You're a brave man for sticking it out with Sentinels/Maras.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Juithtin

[ishbindeinvater]

Most of the guys covered everything, but I just want to add in a couple things;

 

Pacify/Obfuscate: is the MOST useful ability we have for dealing with Juggs (particularly Vengeance/Vigilance). I usually pop it during their first ravage. (Which most people use after they leap due to Unstoppable making you immune to cc for 4(?) seconds)

 

Rebuke/Cloak of Pain: Pop it the minute you get into combat

 

Stasis/Choke: Never use this the minute they leap to you. I save it to interrupt their Ravage/MS that isn't protected by Unstoppable/Unremitting

 

Force Camo; People might disagree with me on this, but I use it to interupt a ravage the minute it starts ticking if Stasis/Pacify are on cooldown

 

Warzone Adrenal: Reduces damage by 20% (or 25 - can't remember off the top of my head) - I usually hit this the minute Rebuke/CoP is finished.

 

Saber Ward: I hit this if I get down to about 60% health

 

Guarded by the Force/Whatever the Imp version is: Pop this when you're nearly dead - beat him once again, just as it's about to finish hit Awe and use a medpac at the end of GbtF.

 

If you play watchman and he's loaded with dots and he's popped ED/FD - Low Slash him. As far as I know, the Trauma debuff will mitigate some of his healing. But in the end, it just comes down to doing more damage than him inbetween your defensives. If you can get him to burn either ED or Enure (forgot the imp name) and a medpac while you still have most of your dcds available, you're in a good spot.

 

And in regards to your last part; it is a bit ironic that the specc that should have the most mobility has the least. Anyway, good luck with it. You're a brave man for sticking it out with Sentinels/Maras.

 

Adrenal is 15 %

Low slash is an assassin ability

 

--> you can't beat a jugg as a sentinel

[Juithtin]

Adrenal is 15 %

Low slash is an assassin ability

 

--> you can't beat a jugg as a sentinel

 

Thanks for the Adrenal thing, couldn't remember it. And I meant Leg Slash - I'm bad with ability names.

 

In a straight 1v1, you can beat a Jugg - I've done it before and I'm sure others have as well. It's not easy, but it is do-able. The minute outside healing comes in to it though, the Sentinel is going to get wrecked.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Juithtin

[RodneyMcNeely]

Okay, I haven't played a Sentinel/Marauder since before RotHC, but I just got my junk HANDED to me by a Fury Marauder while playing my Serenity Shadow.

 

I really wasn't expecting the upfront burst. He just ran over me like I was a cardboard cutout. I'm still leveling my Trooper through SoR, and Sent/Mara is the only AC I don't have yet, so I was planning on rolling one anyway at some point for the achievements. Oh, and I don't have an Artificer yet, so there's that.

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts on Concentration/Fury spec as a heal/tank killer and dueling spec.

 

Thanks in advance!