State of the game review on Kotaku....

[LordArtemis]

Because some folks have to combat you and the other members of the "Forum Apologist Five" group, otherwise no legitimate issues would be raised and BW wouldn't have the foggiest notion about what's working and what isn't, what the players want or don't want etc.

 

Andryah is not an "apologist". In fact Andryah has been quite critical of a few decisions the devs have made in SWTOR recently, fairly so IMO.

 

Post history stands in evidence. Andryah is OPINIONATED. Like most anyone else around here.

[Arkerus]

if you say so, but your wrong

 

I been around lot longer then just WOW and understand what effect WOW had on over all design of genre

For me, the minute someone points to WOW (like you just did) they show a lack of understanding in the overall picture. You want to argue a small time portion of the entire picture that is MMORPG genre

 

Not going to argue with WOW kiddies because its a circle jerk

 

Suffice to say every single thing I said is FACT and proven over and over and over in this genre.

 

You "THINK" WOW improved this genre

I KNOW WOW was a one off game that was a exception (huge successful exception mind you) to the rule and games that followed it have suffered (as have the genre) for following its lead.

 

If WOW was the grand template you think it is, this genre would be at a apex of brilliance and success

Its not

Its widely ACCEPTED that the MMORPG genre since WOW (not including WOW) has suffered and been in steady and constant decline.

 

But you lack the knowledge to understand this truth and lack the knowledge of seeing many different system in play over the generations.

 

WOW was a success on its own, not a template for future success.

MMORPGs after WOW that tried to copy WOW have not remotely hit the mark they predicted they would (or should have).

 

Its just the truth, as I said, not going to argue it, it is what it is

Do some real research and you will learn this as well

 

Right now MMORPGs have been stuck in a copy syndrome much like Pokemon or Garbage Pail Kids or Cabbage Patch Kids (or insert any hugely successful FAD (WOW) who then spawns a whole host of generally un-creative imitations (MMORPGs after WOW) .

 

WOW is not the standard you copy

WOW is the exception that breaks the foundations but worked despite it

 

Everything I posted is 100% accurate and all you have to do is do real honest research into topic and understand how and why different products effected the genre and the long lasting effects of those products.

 

But to do that, you would have to look long before WOW era and understand what WOW actually brought that was new or original to the genre and why they did things they did.

 

CLEARLY the status quo you argue for is NOT working.

 

Whats that old saying

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing (as you suggest staying with the status quo) over and over and over and expecting a different result.

 

How many different MMORPGs need to copy WOW concepts (and fail) before you understand this whole concept of expertise, PVP Gear grind, god mode abilities separating players when they should be balanced and equal doesnt work.

 

As I said, its circle jerk, either you understand the problem and suggest proven alternatives or you continue to delude yourself into thinking if you keep doing the same thing, eventually you will get a different result.

 

/shrugs

 

Thats the great thing about this genre. EVENTUALLY someone will stop trying the same things over and over and over as you want and will go back to proven concepts (but update them for modern times) and have success, breaking the downward cycle

 

And all you that argue it so much now and claim its all wrong will be the first to embrace and act like you were on board all the time.

 

PS: It absolutely terrifies me how many of you instantly jump to the "but WOW did it this way". This genre grossly outdates WOW and you might wanna truly understand what WOW was at the time it was made. Its NOT the innovator you seem to think it is. Knowledge is golden.

 

I used WoW because it is very similar to this game. I started on BBSs pal, so spare me your rhetoric. My frame of reference was used to explain why theme park games like TOR and WoW have a PvP stat. You don't have to like it but you have to accept it.

[Arkerus]

1) you completely jumped the shark on what Arkerus actually stated. And shouting that you are right and he is wrong just because you say so... no credibility there.

 

2) I am in no way defending the often used memes about WoW and the MMO market... BUT as someone who has played MMOs since the late nineties, in my view you are clearly off the mark here. Like it or not, WoW dominates the technical and features culture of MMOs and has for a decade. It dominated from the beginning by raising the bar on size and scale of player base by close to two orders of magnitude. It dominated by driving MMO design to a broader customer base and set of interests. That alone makes it the 800 lb gorilla in any discussion about MMO features and approach. WoW did as much to destroy the MMO market as it did to innovate and grow it.... but that is a separate discussion entirely.

 

Separately, I rarely see you post anything other then stark negativity and criticism of SWTOR. Why exactly are you playing a game you dislike so much? /shrug.

 

I know what you mean. He was so fixated on the WoW factor he completely missed the point. It happens because people simply don't read the post and the context its presented in. They just see words and go waaarrrrghhaarrrrrble.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Arkerus

[Karkais]

Heh, I know your joking but your not far off actually

 

I am actually NOT joking. I was completely serious. I have always been against pvp gear and specific pvp stat. The reason for their existence is that most players actually SUCK, and they need something so they can substitute skill with work (grinding gear). But this is ALSO counterproductive in terms of creating balanced pvp. People keep saying that even though they actually don't want it. They want imbalanced pvp in favor of the people who pvp a lot, as if skill is not enough.

[Kryand]

Like I said, they should just make all PVP gear 100% free. It might not be the best solution if you have infinite resources, but it's definitely the solution requiring the least amount of work and causing the least amount of side-effects that would need to be tracked down, and it would completely get the job done.

[Preston_Violent]

 

4) However for all the great visuals and story, the SOR was to small and to easily finished and is already becoming stale to even the most casual of players. Unless EA plans to release a "FREE" (because I know Im not paying for content update again till next year, thats why I pay a sub) every month of that size, SOR falls well short of what a REAL paid for Expansion should be size and hours of content wise.

 

And this one specifically, very true. 3.0 being the "you name it - we'll nerf it" game update, where every more or less vital aspect was diminished, from global dps, healing and a handful of various class/advanced class-specific abilities to biochem, comms gear (it never was bis, ofc, and never was supposed to be, but now it's even worse) and story. Heck, 2.0 and Makeb introduced a huge location with 2 full stories for each side. Now we got 2 tiny locations, so tiny they don't even have AREA or HEROIC types of quests and 1, just 1 story for every class of both sides.

 

Pvp-ers got nothing in 3.0, casuals got 1 extremely poorly organized daily area on Rishi and 1 better-handled daily area on Yavin, tho together they take way too much time to complete and hardly being tempting enough to return to regularly. While raiders suddenly got 2 brandnew ops. Most weird move since hardcore raiders aren't exactly the type of audience to rely on for a mmo game anymore.

 

As a result instead of an influx of new and returning players I can clearly see population dropping (that began before the xmas time) and most guilds actually losing players, so shortly after this major game update...that is especially ironic in regards to another post where someone asked about guild size limits

[Damask_Rose]

As a result instead of an influx of new and returning players I can clearly see population dropping (that began before the xmas time) and most guilds actually losing players, so shortly after this major game update...that is especially ironic in regards to another post where someone asked about guild size limits

 

I can't speak to the rest of the population, but my guild has 3x the number of active players logging on now than we had a few months ago despite people leaving for the holidays. We have been gaining new members at a steady rate as well.

[LordArtemis]

I also wonder if a surge in population is causing the lag problems we are having at present, or at least contributing to it.

[Aries_cz]

I also wonder if a surge in population is causing the lag problems we are having at present, or at least contributing to it.

 

Pretty sure it does

[Tolunart]

There are great many good points said in this thread.

 

About PVP: I agree with the people who claimed that the only way for balanced PVP is that all pvpers have equal characters. Then only skill decides the victor, and thats the way it should be. In other words: ditch pvp stat and let all characters in pvp play as if naked. Ive been preaching removal of expertise from day one. Too bad nobody ever listened to me, probably still don't.

 

btw, I always wondered why PVPers who claim that skill should decide the victor, are always supporting pvp gear thats purpose of existence is the exact opposite?

 

If the main difference between winning and losing were raw skill it would kill PVP altogether. The PVE'ers who log in for their two daily matches would get tired of having body parts ripped off and handed to them, and stop playing. Then the elite wannabes who have maxed gear but can't actually beat someone who knows what they are doing will get tired of the same happening to them and stop playing. Then the skilled players would get tired of waiting an hour to play a 4v4 match with random sides winning because everyone who still plays is evenly matched. Then they'd stop playing too.

[Tolunart]

I also wonder if a surge in population is causing the lag problems we are having at present, or at least contributing to it.

 

I thought is was obvious. More players online = more objects to render, more animations to run, more server traffic in general. Having 1,000 players on a server vs 10,000 players on a server is going to cause a noticeable effect.

[Darth_Wicked]

I thought is was obvious.

 

I thought so too, especially considering the same went down with RotHC.

 

Apparently, we were wrong.

[Tolunart]

I thought so too, especially considering the same went down with RotHC.

 

Apparently, we were wrong.

 

Common sense... is not really.

[LordArtemis]

Hmm.

 

Sure, because the current problems we are having couldn't possibly be related to something other than population.

 

Yea, no, lets say that it is obvious instead so we can demonstrate some form of fallacious wit......

 

Shenanigans.

[Rafaman]

All I know is I was placed in a que to log in tonight. I'm on Harbinger and it has been a long time, a very long time since that has happened.

 

And it wasn't a short que either.... 10 mins as a sub.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Rafaman

[Tolunart]

Hmm.

 

Sure, because the current problems we are having couldn't possibly be related to something other than population.

 

Yea, no, lets say that it is obvious instead so we can demonstrate some form of fallacious wit......

 

Shenanigans.

 

Occam's Razor - the simplest answer is usually the best. Not necessarily the correct or only answer, but it needs to be addressed before considering the tinfoil hat point of view.

 

Complaints that lag accompanied the previous expansion, plus the tendency of expansions to bring back a lot of older players for a little while, all at once, imply that increased population is a major source of lag.

 

The same roads that are empty at 3 am are crowded at 5 pm, because there are a lot more cars on them, not because there is something wrong with the roads. Traveling the same route at those two times is going to be a completely different experience, and it's obvious why that happens.

 

Given the tendency for forum posters to declare a minor earthquake to be the end of the world, I'm not inclined to trust their word that they are expert game developers and network specialists, and therefore can speak with authority about the reasons why specific issues happen in the game. I'd rather apply common sense, especially when they seem to disregard it completely.

[Deaderguy]

Occam's Razor - the simplest answer is usually the best. Not necessarily the correct or only answer, but it needs to be addressed before considering the tinfoil hat point of view.

 

Complaints that lag accompanied the previous expansion, plus the tendency of expansions to bring back a lot of older players for a little while, all at once, imply that increased population is a major source of lag.

 

The same roads that are empty at 3 am are crowded at 5 pm, because there are a lot more cars on them, not because there is something wrong with the roads. Traveling the same route at those two times is going to be a completely different experience, and it's obvious why that happens.

 

Given the tendency for forum posters to declare a minor earthquake to be the end of the world, I'm not inclined to trust their word that they are expert game developers and network specialists, and therefore can speak with authority about the reasons why specific issues happen in the game. I'd rather apply common sense, especially when they seem to disregard it completely.

 

However they haven't spoke as to why specific issues are occurring in game we just get a generic we are aware posts. The lag and ability delay only seems to really adverse effect me in groups so should I not group and trust network specialists and game devs that everything is working as intended? No I will take my sub somewhere else and they can rely on f2p market sales since that's what their after.

[Max_Killjoy]

As repeatedly pointed out, the ability lag / server stutter appear to have no correlation to time of day, server, player's physical location in relation to the server, player's latency, current population, number of instances running, or anything else that would indicate some link to player population overall or at the time. It also started for some as soon as 3.0 early access opened, before many players were able to access any of the new content.

 

Instead, it appears highly random, sometimes affecting people on their ship or on some random planet with 5 or less players in the count, and other times being completely absent despite multiple full instances of the same world on a server.

 

Whatever is going on is not, and especially is not primarily, a matter of increased player population.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Tolunart]

Then I will defer to the experts who have diagnosed the problems from their living room couches.

[Max_Killjoy]

Then I will defer to the experts who have diagnosed the problems from their living room couches.

 

The evidence says what the evidence says.

 

If the problem were simply one of increased player population, then one would expect a correlation between times and "places" of high population, and increased occurrence of the phenomena in question.

 

From the evidence available, this correlation does not appear to exist.

 

Therefore, one must ask how the problem could be one of increased population, as opposed to some other cause that would not have this correlation. We do not know what the problem is -- we however do know that this particular hypothetical cause is unlikely to be it.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Kryand]

Then I will defer to the experts who have diagnosed the problems from their living room couches.

 

I guess you must be sitting in a fancy hammock out on the veranda.

[Tolunart]

The game is active worldwide, and without access to server records, a player cannot determine what the actual server population is throughout the day. So anecdotal evidence like "the planet I was on was almost deserted but I still have lag" doesn't mean anything, the server could be operating at twice the normal population even if the player cannot see it.

 

Complaints about the devs saying "we are aware of the issue and are looking into it," are pointless because the devs will not share every detail of their investigation with the customers. They *are* aware of the issue, posting a new complaint every day isn't going to make the problems go away any faster.

 

In my experience, MMO players are like teenage girls - *every* problem is the end of the world as we know it, and when two or more are involved the panic increases exponentially. So as a general rule I dismiss any such complaints without clear evidence of a problem, and I suspect the devs (who deal with this sort of thing on a daily basis) do the same. And life, somehow, goes on.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Tolunart

[Tolunart]

I guess you must be sitting in a fancy hammock out on the veranda.

 

While sipping a mint julep, of course.

[LordArtemis]

Occam's Razor - the simplest answer is usually the best. Not necessarily the correct or only answer, but it needs to be addressed before considering the tinfoil hat point of view.

 

Complaints that lag accompanied the previous expansion, plus the tendency of expansions to bring back a lot of older players for a little while, all at once, imply that increased population is a major source of lag.

 

The same roads that are empty at 3 am are crowded at 5 pm, because there are a lot more cars on them, not because there is something wrong with the roads. Traveling the same route at those two times is going to be a completely different experience, and it's obvious why that happens.

 

Given the tendency for forum posters to declare a minor earthquake to be the end of the world, I'm not inclined to trust their word that they are expert game developers and network specialists, and therefore can speak with authority about the reasons why specific issues happen in the game. I'd rather apply common sense, especially when they seem to disregard it completely.

 

They may have disregarded it, but I didn't. Which was the point of my comment.

 

The only real truth is that we are all likely diagnosing this out of ignorance, since it is very likely that few if any of us actually work for Bioware....

 

And THAT is the only comment that can be made that is based in common sense. Everything else is assumption and supposition, period.

 

One contention may be more likely than the other, but none of them carry one bit of common sense that exceeds another....they are all borne in ignorance of fact.

Edited January 3, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Tolunart]

The only real truth is that we are all likely diagnosing this out of ignorance, since it is very likely that few if any of us actually work for Bioware....

 

And THAT is the only comment that can be made that is based in common sense. Everything else is assumption and supposition, period.

 

I agree, more or less. I've played several MMOs over the last few years, including being here for the launch of SWTOR and checking in from time to time as the whim strikes me. I've always skimmed the forums when I play, and while the names and games change, the complaints are pretty much constant, and only on a handful of occasions have they ever been clearly shown to have a basis in reality.