State of the game review on Kotaku....

[Kryand]

Well, I think there is a difference with gear that provides a "bonus" and gear that is required to progress.

 

Looking at FPS games you can see that gear upgrades are offered, and progression is possible, but it does not make one a god no matter how skilled they might be...this is because the power curve is very low. This keeps the game interesting and appealing to new players while still allowing folks to progress.

 

True, I guess it's not entirely the same, but it's still bad. Only modern FPS games do that garbage to appeal to the modern idiot console gamer. Actually, the reason they do it is a little more conniving than that, but it's the same to me either way. Old school FPSs were more focused on raw skill, and those are the only ones I have any respect for what-so-ever as competitive games. I look at MMO PVP the same way, GSF included.

[Arkerus]

Finally took the time to read the article

 

 

Don't think so. Played all the classes but the smuggler and found most of them not that great. Also they are very repetitive, so much that at some point you'd wish it stops after the first planet.

 

 

True but guess the main reason is the budget has been mostly allocated to disciplines revamp.

 

 

I give them +1 for trying.

 

 

 

Apart the major bugs and the technical issues (lag) that should not be there, kind of agree here. However the game is still not as good, polish and content wise, as others AAA MMO.

 

I'd say a 12x bonus XP would be a nice reason to return to the game, although they have to mitigate travel time sinks, because they become so obvious and boring when you only do the class story.

 

 

 

I'd say the last 4 updates RoHC, GSF, Strongholds and SoR are reasons not to come back because they went away from what made SWTOR sill enjoyable: class story.

 

Then specifically GSF, is a disaster as it's not aimed at people who like space sims and most others don't care.

 

Stronghold is again not aimed at people who like furnishing their houses as too limited. Most others just use houses as GTN+mail+bank hubs.

 

Finally RoHC and SoR are thin, thinner the more recent they are.

 

However what would you expect for $20 in game that sells you gear dyes for that much and mounts you only get on one character.

 

Check out how other games do:

.

Pets:

 

 

 

Then dyes

 

 

All in all SWTOR still has a long road ahead to be on par with others MMO.

 

Yet... here you are.

[LordArtemis]

Fair enough.

 

I do not care for the dye system here. Mainly because it is not designed to make money for Bioware (IMO) nor is it designed to appease those that enjoy customization.

 

Instead it seems it is set up to benefit crafters and epeens. I would rather it was designed to appease those that enjoy customization, but even as a profit vehicle for Bioware it would be better than it's current design.

 

But, to be fair it is better to have a dye system than none at all, which is what the original dev team seemed to be stuck on. They were very big on visual progression, and very much AGAINST customization, including dyes.

 

As to the pet system, I would like to see combat pets and droids, craftable/trainable ones that are full size and can not be revived if killed. This could also open the door for a pet battle system.

[Aries_cz]

Personally I think if this game is to ever have meaningful PVP they need to remove the expertise stat (if the die hard pvpers as good as they claim they don't need artificial boosts like the expertise does for them) and create common goal objectives that help a faction rather then a single player.

 

Until that day comes, this game will continue to be veiwed as a PVP lite game that utilizes PVP as a side mini game cast off

 

I agree, expertise has been my major gripe ever since it was announced to exist.

However, the question here is if it would be even possible to remove expertise (or PvP gear), because how would then PvP-only players get their gear? Certainly one cannot expect them to raid for it...

[Aries_cz]

Not a terrible article, but I really had a very hard time respecting the authors connection with the game with this whopper of an inaccurate line:

 

"For the past two years, the new status quo has felt like "find out what people on the forums are asking about most, and make that." That's resulted in free expansions like Galactic Starfighter, which introduced PVP fighter combat"

 

I think the regular forum posters will agree that almost no one was asking for GSF and BY FAR the most requested addition was more storyline. The author is quite obviously not in touch with what the player base has been asking for and is really just putting his own reflections onto everyone else.

 

People asked a lot for space PvP. However, some expected a "hey chewie, let's dick around in space" game, and when this was not presented, they became extremely vocal minority that destroyed the system by driving people away from it.

Remember, the main problem GSF has is that there are very few people in the queue, which breaks the system.

[Karkais]

Not sure there's much to add on PvP then.

 

There are great many good points said in this thread.

 

About PVP: I agree with the people who claimed that the only way for balanced PVP is that all pvpers have equal characters. Then only skill decides the victor, and thats the way it should be. In other words: ditch pvp stat and let all characters in pvp play as if naked. Ive been preaching removal of expertise from day one. Too bad nobody ever listened to me, probably still don't.

 

btw, I always wondered why PVPers who claim that skill should decide the victor, are always supporting pvp gear thats purpose of existence is the exact opposite?

Edited December 27, 2014 by Karkais

[Kalfear]

I agree, expertise has been my major gripe ever since it was announced to exist.

However, the question here is if it would be even possible to remove expertise (or PvP gear), because how would then PvP-only players get their gear? Certainly one cannot expect them to raid for it...

 

Short answer:

 

honestly Aires, even though I hate Expertise and think its a completely flawed system

 

nope

 

I dont think you could (or should) remove expertise from this game

 

mainly because its the system people (even though its not that many) signed up for and I have always felt its just bad business to completely change a game system once its established.

 

SW:TOR has expertise and love it or hate it, its a system that its married to now.

 

 

Long answer:

 

As for PVPers getting their gear

honestly I do not think PVP should reward gear or xp (yes yes PVPers, I know I know, save your outrage)

 

Im not against PVP rewards (actually Im all for them) but feel they should be things that make characters special, unique, different, but WITH OUT changing stats or abilities and thus unbalancing the balance there is suppose to be when PVPing.

 

PVP when done right should not be a gear or special ability content, it should be a skill contest. you vrs me, your quad vrs my quad, your army vrs my army, we meet on the feild of battle and may the MOST SKILLED, THE BEST TACTICS, THE BEST STRATEGY win.

 

Here is a example from DAoC:

 

Myself (Paladin) and a friend named Keth (Armsman) were held up in one of our keeps while 4 mids battled on the front doors.

Being 4 vrs 2 both Keth and I knew we had to out think our opponents if we had any hopes of prevailing.

So we sat on the upper walkway and watched carefully the actions of the 4 mid players.

And then we saw our opening

All 4 mids had messed up and ultilized styles (which costed stamina) until they were all out of stamina and had no more power to do anything but basic swings (think trooper hammer shot vrs trooper Boltstorm with us having the boltstorm)

so we attacked and managed to take 2 mids down while chasing off the other 2 forcing them to flee

 

THATS PVP to me, superior tactics, strategy, utilizing your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses.

 

Neither of us had the best gear.

We had good gear to be sure because we crafted or paid a crafter to make it

but we held no advantage through gear or through magical stats that made us all but invincible

We had to out think our opponents to over come their superior numbers

 

And that win in itself was more then enough reward because it was the thrill of the fight that was the draw to PVP.

 

And for me, thats what modern day PVP has gotten away from sadly

Now its all about gear, and coms, and finding the easiest fight (high expertise premades trolling the unranked for easy points).

 

Its funny, I think back over last 24 years to the different MMORPGs Ive played

 

I can still tell you names of the best and most respected PVPErs from 1991-97 in NWN

I can still tell you names of highly regarded PVPers from EQ and AC

I can obviously tell you many many many stories (with names) from DAoC

 

But I could not tell you a single opponents name in SW:TOR that is respected or renown like in those other games.

Oh I could tell you the name of guilds people say/claim cheating in SW:TOR.

Reps for hacking and cheating and all that seem to be far more common now a days then any reps for being excellent

 

I really do think this genre (not just SW:TOR as this not just a SW:TOR issue sadly) needs to get back to the promoting the good in PVP

over just gear grinding

 

Its gotta be about reputation (not reputation vendors)

And the only way to build reputation honestly is for everything to be relatively equal and balanced

 

In a vastly over generalized description a MMORPG simply is

 

PVE is about exploration, advancement, character improvement

PVP is about reputation excellence, and ego (and thats not a bad thing for those that think ego stated as a negative)

Crafting is about economy, creation, dedication

Role Playing is about environment

 

Put the 4 aspects together and you have a MMORPG

 

Honestly I dont see allot of any of those aspects in the modern MMORPGs

Its all become just to watered down and interchangable

[Karkais]

Short answer:

 

honestly Aires, even though I hate Expertise and think its a completely flawed system

 

nope

 

I dont think you could (or should) remove expertise from this game

 

mainly because its the system people (even though its not that many) signed up for and I have always felt its just bad business to completely change a game system once its established.

 

SW:TOR has expertise and love it or hate it, its a system that its married to now.

 

Devs could introduce a third type of pvp besides ranked and unranked.. "naked" And see whether that catches on..

 

 

I didn't know Kotaku was relevant anymore...

 

I don't see why it needs to be relevant. In my opinion one should always judge an article for what it is, not who wrote it. Otherwise it is simple prejudice. Besides, the article seems decent and raises good points.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Karkais

[LordArtemis]

People asked a lot for space PvP. However, some expected a "hey chewie, let's dick around in space" game, and when this was not presented, they became extremely vocal minority that destroyed the system by driving people away from it.

Remember, the main problem GSF has is that there are very few people in the queue, which breaks the system.

 

I disagree. I personally think I know exactly what drove away the folks that do not participate in GSF.

 

It was likely GSF.

[HanSollo]

I didn't know Kotaku was relevant anymore...

 

Its not, or at least its not to people who want an honest opinion.

[Kalfear]

Devs could introduce a third type of pvp besides ranked and unranked.. "naked" And see whether that catches on..

.

 

Heh, I know your joking but your not far off actually

 

If the dev put in a endgame PVP warzones (as thats the PVP type they utilize here mostly) where the Expertise stat was made obsolete

you would soon find those warzones the vastly more utilized

 

Which is why they will never do that

 

You remove the artificial bonus of expertise (and the non working bolster as it would not be needed) and you would see three things happen almost instantly

 

1) Crafters selling high end gear (armor plates, mods, enhancements) would suddenly find themselves with a ton of new customers (which would be great for game economy truth be told)

 

2) Group Finder queue for hard mode flash points and ops would be more active (as PVPers engaged in other parts of game to outfit themselves)

 

3) there would be a massive influx of more casual styled players willing to enter and participate in PVP because they would no longer feel instantly outdone and over matched because of expertise stat.

 

And while all that would be great for game there would be 2 negatives that would play out as more important (to the devs)

 

1) it would show clearly the wrong headed mindset of expertise system, which would only hilite the other statements made about going the warzone route over full on PVP planets with claimable outposts and such (which was hugely requested for prior to launch and during beta. Not talking smugglers den or even the poorly designed Ilum that was in at launch but a full planet the size of say Hoth with capture-able/defend-able outposts and bases).

 

and the devs simply not willing to open that can of worms and be second guessed

 

2) The outcry of those that require the expertise stat to compete would be loud and common and LOUD. They would be posting so often it would make 50 players look like 5000. They would be screaming bloody murder that they did so many warzones so they could get that artificial advantage over others and how unfair it would be that they now cant just steamroll others because of no expertise.

 

and make no mistake, while there is some good pvpers out there. There is a whole host of pvpers who completely and utterly depend on the expertise mismatch to allow them to compete. With out that crutch they would be screaming bloody murder and then some.

[Arkerus]

Heh, I know your joking but your not far off actually

 

If the dev put in a endgame PVP warzones (as thats the PVP type they utilize here mostly) where the Expertise stat was made obsolete

you would soon find those warzones the vastly more utilized

 

Which is why they will never do that

 

You remove the artificial bonus of expertise (and the non working bolster as it would not be needed) and you would see three things happen almost instantly

 

1) Crafters selling high end gear (armor plates, mods, enhancements) would suddenly find themselves with a ton of new customers (which would be great for game economy truth be told)

 

2) Group Finder queue for hard mode flash points and ops would be more active (as PVPers engaged in other parts of game to outfit themselves)

 

3) there would be a massive influx of more casual styled players willing to enter and participate in PVP because they would no longer feel instantly outdone and over matched because of expertise stat.

 

And while all that would be great for game there would be 2 negatives that would play out as more important (to the devs)

 

1) it would show clearly the wrong headed mindset of expertise system, which would only hilite the other statements made about going the warzone route over full on PVP planets with claimable outposts and such (which was hugely requested for prior to launch and during beta. Not talking smugglers den or even the poorly designed Ilum that was in at launch but a full planet the size of say Hoth with capture-able/defend-able outposts and bases).

 

and the devs simply not willing to open that can of worms and be second guessed

 

2) The outcry of those that require the expertise stat to compete would be loud and common and LOUD. They would be posting so often it would make 50 players look like 5000. They would be screaming bloody murder that they did so many warzones so they could get that artificial advantage over others and how unfair it would be that they now cant just steamroll others because of no expertise.

 

and make no mistake, while there is some good pvpers out there. There is a whole host of pvpers who completely and utterly depend on the expertise mismatch to allow them to compete. With out that crutch they would be screaming bloody murder and then some.

 

There is nothing about your post that is remotely accurate. The reason games like WoW and TOR added stats like expertise were so the PvE players could not waltz into PvP with, basically, God armor. it was a HUGE issue in WoW before they split the armor tiers into PvP and PvE tiers. All the PvP gear was garbage compared to the PvE gear because truth be told, it was easier to queue for battlegrounds and get gear than try and find 25 people for a raid.

 

None of what you posted happens when you remove expertise. PvP players won't suddenly start queuing for PvE because, wait for it, they would rather PvP. Shocking, I know.

 

The only thing your idea would do is put the mismatch back the other direction. Now PvE players and high end crafters have the best gear and the people using WS comms have the worst. I prefer the current system because a nightmare mode PvE player can't waltz into PvP and destroy everyone.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[Aries_cz]

There is nothing about your post that is remotely accurate. The reason games like WoW and TOR added stats like expertise were so the PvE players could not waltz into PvP with, basically, God armor. it was a HUGE issue in WoW before they split the armor tiers into PvP and PvE tiers. All the PvP gear was garbage compared to the PvE gear because truth be told, it was easier to queue for battlegrounds and get gear than try and find 25 people for a raid.

 

None of what you posted happens when you remove expertise. PvP players won't suddenly start queuing for PvE because, wait for it, they would rather PvP. Shocking, I know.

 

The only thing your idea would do is put the mismatch back the other direction. Now PvE players and high end crafters have the best gear and the people using WS comms have the worst. I prefer the current system because a nightmare mode PvE player can't waltz into PvP and destroy everyone.

 

This was the point I was trying to make, but probably was not so "straightforward" about it.

PvPers would not start queueing for PvE, nor they would start buying from crafters (because they would not have the money), because that game style is not appealing to them.

However, I could see a "no gear" Warzone (strip the gear of all stats), so it would be about skills and group play, and I would like to see how it would catch on.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Aries_cz

[Aries_cz]

I disagree. I personally think I know exactly what drove away the folks that do not participate in GSF.

 

It was likely GSF.

 

And how many people refused to try it because they imagined a polar opposite of what was promised? Devs promised a squad based PvP combat, and people imagined a "let's dick around in space" open world game (don't ask me how they arrived at that conclusion). When that didn't happen, everybody started whining about how bad it is and how they were lied to.

[Arkerus]

And how many people refused to try it because they imagined a polar opposite of what was promised? Devs promised a squad based PvP combat, and people imagined a "let's dick around in space" open world game (don't ask me how they arrived at that conclusion). When that didn't happen, everybody started whining about how bad it is and how they were lied to.

 

This is very accurate. The devs pretty much delivered exactly what they advertised. The people not playing it are largely, but not totally, the people who had some completely unrealistic open world PvE space game on their mind.

 

The control scheme isn't an excuse at this point. Its the same scheme used by many space fighter games. Besides not getting what they wanted (an open world space game) people just don't want to have their egos bruised while they learn how to play the game. Truth be told, some MMO gamers aren't twitch gamers. Some think its low brow game play so they stay away from it (again, ridiculous).

 

Anyway. You have to take GSF for what it is. A space dog fighter mini game. It does it well, for what it is.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[LordArtemis]

And how many people refused to try it because they imagined a polar opposite of what was promised? Devs promised a squad based PvP combat, and people imagined a "let's dick around in space" open world game (don't ask me how they arrived at that conclusion). When that didn't happen, everybody started whining about how bad it is and how they were lied to.

 

I don't know...I just think that the forum feedback, in game feedback and the polls on this site clearly demonstrated folks wanted something akin to BF2, not JTL, not XwvsTF. Sure there were folks that wanted open space, but I do not think those folks were or are a majority.

 

If they are, frankly, than I think the feature should have been designed to cater to them. What I do think is that they were trying to provide a BF2 style experience and they ran out of money and time. So they did the best they could.

 

It is easy to blame the JTL crowd, or unreasonable expectations, but in the end I think that GSF is just a poor effort....certainly much better than the PVE space option (but almost anything could be) but still lacking in so many ways.

 

I think the fact that they made the decision not to develop the feature any further for the time being and offer incentives for gameplay speaks volumes as to how the feature is performing with the playerbase.

Edited December 27, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Andryah]

However, I could see a "no gear" Warzone (strip the gear of all stats), so it would be about skills and group play, and I would like to see how it would catch on.

 

Honestly.... I wish they would simply make the PvP part of the game a "show up and rely on your skills" approach.

 

In other words... you wear whatever gear you like into the instance, but the stats are ignored and every player gets an overlay of a standard set of stats for their class.

 

Now.. for those that only play PvP to get better gear so that they can faceroll other lesser geard PvP players... meh. If you need a bigger mallet rather then better use of a mallet.. your terribad in PvP, or a sociopath, IMO. But I can see throwing them a nominal bone or two in the form of utility skills or special gear appearances based on a PvP progression model of sorts. Something to strive for but not something that makes them face rolling gods against newer PvP players.

[LordArtemis]

Honestly.... I wish they would simply make the PvP part of the game a "show up and rely on your skills" approach.

 

In other words... you wear whatever gear you like into the instance, but the stats are ignored and every player gets an overlay of a standard set of stats for their class.

 

Now.. for those that only play PvP to get better gear so that they can faceroll other lesser geard PvP players... meh. If you need a bigger mallet rather then better use of a mallet.. your terribad in PvP, or a sociopath, IMO. But I can see throwing them a nominal bone or two in the form of utility skills or special gear appearances based on a PvP progression model of sorts. Something to strive for but not something that makes them face rolling gods against newer PvP players.

 

It is like I said IMO....the problem is the lack of two rule sets and gear focus instead of skill focus.

 

The most popular PVP in the genre tends to be PVP that is based on skill, and that kind of PVP had pulled away quite a few hardcore PVP players from the MMO market.

 

They are fixated on a few things that keeps PVP in a niche state IMO.

 

1) Must use the same rule set, but then it offers Expertise.

2) Must have gear progression like PVE.

 

They try far too hard to make PVP like PVE so it has appeal to a wider audience, but in the end I believe this has the exact opposite effect.

 

As you said, having it skill based would make more sense, and make it far more approachable. This is what I would do if I was in charge of PVP.

1) Create a single PVP mode, starting with GSF (on foot combat, standard avatar, simplified abilities) with upgrades based on rank and performance, most temporary. This mode, if it proved popular would be moved out to a single battle arena to test it's popularity.

 

2) If it proved popular compared to current PVP, Expertise would be allowed to remain for OWPVP and perhaps a few maps, but normal PVP would be under a new rule set.....a simplified set of abilities and a standard avatar instead of your current character, one you can customize (like ships in GSF).

 

This would be far more approachable for the playerbase since any player could walk in to the game and pose a real challenge to current players. Pro players would still have an edge, but that edge would be far less dramatic.

Edited December 27, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Andryah]

I don't know...I just think that the forum feedback, in game feedback and the polls on this site clearly demonstrated folks wanted something akin to BF2, not JTL, not XwvsTF. Sure there were folks that wanted open space, but I do not think those folks were or are a majority.

 

If they are, frankly, than I think the feature should have been designed to cater to them. What I do think is that they were trying to provide a BF2 style experience and they ran out of money and time. So they did the best they could.

 

It is easy to blame the JTL crowd, or unreasonable expectations, but in the end I think that GSF is just a poor effort....certainly much better than the PVE space option (but almost anything could be) but still lacking in so many ways.

 

Player feedback is misleading. Why? Because the squeakiest wheels make the most noise, the most often. Which in no way makes for some sort of credible voice for the masses. I simply do not believe there is any consensus.

 

I do agree that some people want/crave a JTL model. Others crave a BF2 model. Others simply want simple pew pew for fun and sport (console style). Some want PvE. Some want PvP. Some simply don't care, etc. etc. etc.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Andryah

[Max_Killjoy]

I didn't like GSF because the controls are mushy, the combat is this derpy arcady thing, and the particular first-person presentation they chose makes situational awareness difficult.

[Aries_cz]

I didn't like GSF because the controls are mushy, the combat is this derpy arcady thing, and the particular first-person presentation they chose makes situational awareness difficult.

 

How is GSF first person? Unless you use Gunship's railgun, you always see the ship the same way you see your characters on the ground.

[Max_Killjoy]

How is GSF first person? Unless you use Gunship's railgun, you always see the ship the same way you see your characters on the ground.

 

Hmmm... loads it up tutorial mode again after all these months...

 

Damnit, you're right.

 

I guess it just feels so tunnel-visiony that my brain always remembers it as a bad first-person view.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Kalfear]

There is nothing about your post that is remotely accurate. The reason games like WoW and TOR added stats like expertise were so the PvE players could not waltz into PvP with, basically, God armor.

 

if you say so, but your wrong

 

I been around lot longer then just WOW and understand what effect WOW had on over all design of genre

For me, the minute someone points to WOW (like you just did) they show a lack of understanding in the overall picture. You want to argue a small time portion of the entire picture that is MMORPG genre

 

Not going to argue with WOW kiddies because its a circle jerk

 

Suffice to say every single thing I said is FACT and proven over and over and over in this genre.

 

You "THINK" WOW improved this genre

I KNOW WOW was a one off game that was a exception (huge successful exception mind you) to the rule and games that followed it have suffered (as have the genre) for following its lead.

 

If WOW was the grand template you think it is, this genre would be at a apex of brilliance and success

Its not

Its widely ACCEPTED that the MMORPG genre since WOW (not including WOW) has suffered and been in steady and constant decline.

 

But you lack the knowledge to understand this truth and lack the knowledge of seeing many different system in play over the generations.

 

WOW was a success on its own, not a template for future success.

MMORPGs after WOW that tried to copy WOW have not remotely hit the mark they predicted they would (or should have).

 

Its just the truth, as I said, not going to argue it, it is what it is

Do some real research and you will learn this as well

 

Right now MMORPGs have been stuck in a copy syndrome much like Pokemon or Garbage Pail Kids or Cabbage Patch Kids (or insert any hugely successful FAD (WOW) who then spawns a whole host of generally un-creative imitations (MMORPGs after WOW) .

 

WOW is not the standard you copy

WOW is the exception that breaks the foundations but worked despite it

 

Everything I posted is 100% accurate and all you have to do is do real honest research into topic and understand how and why different products effected the genre and the long lasting effects of those products.

 

But to do that, you would have to look long before WOW era and understand what WOW actually brought that was new or original to the genre and why they did things they did.

 

CLEARLY the status quo you argue for is NOT working.

 

Whats that old saying

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing (as you suggest staying with the status quo) over and over and over and expecting a different result.

 

How many different MMORPGs need to copy WOW concepts (and fail) before you understand this whole concept of expertise, PVP Gear grind, god mode abilities separating players when they should be balanced and equal doesnt work.

 

As I said, its circle jerk, either you understand the problem and suggest proven alternatives or you continue to delude yourself into thinking if you keep doing the same thing, eventually you will get a different result.

 

/shrugs

 

Thats the great thing about this genre. EVENTUALLY someone will stop trying the same things over and over and over as you want and will go back to proven concepts (but update them for modern times) and have success, breaking the downward cycle

 

And all you that argue it so much now and claim its all wrong will be the first to embrace and act like you were on board all the time.

 

PS: It absolutely terrifies me how many of you instantly jump to the "but WOW did it this way". This genre grossly outdates WOW and you might wanna truly understand what WOW was at the time it was made. Its NOT the innovator you seem to think it is. Knowledge is golden.

[Andryah]

PS: It absolutely terrifies me how many of you instantly jump to the "but WOW did it this way". This genre grossly outdates WOW and you might wanna truly understand what WOW was at the time it was made. Its NOT the innovator you seem to think it is. Knowledge is golden.

 

1) you completely jumped the shark on what Arkerus actually stated. And shouting that you are right and he is wrong just because you say so... no credibility there.

 

2) I am in no way defending the often used memes about WoW and the MMO market... BUT as someone who has played MMOs since the late nineties, in my view you are clearly off the mark here. Like it or not, WoW dominates the technical and features culture of MMOs and has for a decade. It dominated from the beginning by raising the bar on size and scale of player base by close to two orders of magnitude. It dominated by driving MMO design to a broader customer base and set of interests. That alone makes it the 800 lb gorilla in any discussion about MMO features and approach. WoW did as much to destroy the MMO market as it did to innovate and grow it.... but that is a separate discussion entirely.

 

Separately, I rarely see you post anything other then stark negativity and criticism of SWTOR. Why exactly are you playing a game you dislike so much? /shrug.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Andryah

[BarrinMarshall]

1) you completely jumped the shark on what Arkerus actually stated. And shouting that you are right and he is wrong just because you say so... no credibility there.

 

2) I am in no way defending the often used memes about WoW and the MMO market... BUT as someone who has played MMOs since the late nineties, in my view you are clearly off the mark here. Like it or not, WoW dominates the technical and features culture of MMOs and has for a decade. It dominated from the beginning by raising the bar on size and scale of player base by close to two orders of magnitude. It dominated by driving MMO design to a broader customer base and set of interests. That alone makes it the 800 lb gorilla in any discussion about MMO features and approach. WoW did as much to destroy the MMO market as it did to innovate and grow it.... but that is a separate discussion entirely.

 

Separately, I rarely see you post anything other then stark negativity and criticism of SWTOR. Why exactly are you playing a game you dislike so much? /shrug.

 

Because some folks have to combat you and the other members of the "Forum Apologist Five" group, otherwise no legitimate issues would be raised and BW wouldn't have the foggiest notion about what's working and what isn't, what the players want or don't want etc.

Edited December 27, 2014 by BarrinMarshall
another thought