Balance/Madness issue and Bioware said the goal is to balance all classes?

[TitusOfTides]

I'm not gonna go through every point you made. I will make a disclaimer than I only don't pvp that often, but I don't see how the venue would radically change the damage comparison.

 

[1] What I will say is that hitting multiple targets is often a moot point since the most important fights are boss fights. If they have adds the ticks will rarely be on the long enough to make a difference since they die so quickly. Killing trash on the way is even less of a big deal than adds during a boss fight.

 

[2] As it's been said multiple times the healing is negligible also. Healers should be parsing for 4.5-5k HPS. There's no way you're healing "respectably close" to that. Unless you have a screenshot to prove that or something.

 

[3] Finally 30-60 (i'm guessing you're talking about pre-3.0?) Madness is different from 65 and anything not max level isn't really an indicator of the best a spec can do. We've got parses that compare TK to Balance and consistently (doesn't mean every single time, but overall) TK parses higher, ignoring armor or not.

 

[4] The fact is that by mechanics alone Madness should be the higher parsing spec over time. What's actually occurring is that TK/Lightning is doing better for burst and over time. People feel "forced" because there's no competitive reason to play Madness over Lightning if the latter does more damage.

 

Thank you for your reply, and I have numbered your points so that I can better address them.

 

1) While it may be a moot point in a boss encounter, it is much different in PvP - and up until recently this discipline was always regarded as the "PvP" spec. Every ability has a use in a proper situation, and it does seem that (based on what you have said) this would not be the proper situation. However, it is worth noting that a boss (given you have a competent team) will inevitably die and you will finish the quest. Victory is not as (forgive my generalization) "guaranteed" in PvP as it is in PvE.

 

2) "Respectably" might have been the wrong term to use. There have been WZs (level 60) where I have generated close to 500k healing off of self heals alone with Balance (Sorc is still mid level). This might not be ideal, but when you consider that some DPS classes struggle to break those numbers (in DPS) in a WZ I would say it is a benefit worth mentioning.

 

3) You could say I was "lucky" enough to start playing right when the switch hit, so I have really only been able to experience the game since 3.0. However, I have been lurking on these forums and theorycrafting since before release, and have been able to witness the changes the game has gone through (albeit not firsthand).

 

4) (and still a bit of "3") We all know that in order to really get "reliable" data, we would need to parse tests in the hundreds of thousands. The fact that 'sometimes' it parses higher, but 'sometimes' it parses lower is really not reliable data - especially when you consider that people are struggling with the rotation (the guide's rotation is mediocre at best, as we do not PvP in a vacuum. I have found with this spec the rotation is not always the same - and this flexibility of hitting the right ability at the right time not only skews the parsing data but the player's perception of how well their class is performing).

 

I apologize if this is a bit messy, and I am sure several of my sentences have run on. I will reread this and try to make it a bit prettier, but I'm pretty tired and I am sure you will forgive me

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

Thank you for your reply, and I have numbered your points so that I can better address them.

 

1) While it may be a moot point in a boss encounter, it is much different in PvP - and up until recently this discipline was always regarded as the "PvP" spec. Every ability has a use in a proper situation, and it does seem that (based on what you have said) this would not be the proper situation. However, it is worth noting that a boss (given you have a competent team) will inevitably die and you will finish the quest. Victory is not as (forgive my generalization) "guaranteed" in PvP as it is in PvE.

 

2) "Respectably" might have been the wrong term to use. There have been WZs (level 60) where I have generated close to 500k healing off of self heals alone with Balance (Sorc is still mid level). This might not be ideal, but when you consider that some DPS classes struggle to break that in a WZ I would say it is a benefit worth mentioning.

 

3) You could say I was "lucky" enough to start playing right when the switch hit, so I have really only been able to experience the game since 3.0. However, I have been lurking on these forums and theorycrafting since before release, and have been able to witness the changes the game has gone through (albeit not firsthand).

 

4) (and still a bit of "3") We all know that in order to really get "reliable" data, we would need to parse tests in the hundreds of thousands. The fact that 'sometimes' it parses higher, but 'sometimes' it parses lower is really not reliable data - especially when you consider that people are struggling with the rotation (the guide's rotation is OK, but I have found with this spec the rotation is not always the same - and that flexibility of hitting the right ability at the right time really also skews the parsing data and the player's perception of how well their class is performing).

 

I apologize if this is a bit messy, and I am sure several of my sentences have run on. I will reread this and try to make it a bit prettier, but I'm pretty tired and I am sure you will forgive me

 

I like the way you numbered them.

 

1) Like I said earlier I can't really speak on pvp, but simply doing damage doesn't mean a boss will die. Bosses will enrage if you don't kill them quickly enough which equals a wipe. As a "competitive" (because casual players play the spec they enjoy because they enjoy it) player why risk the boss enraging if a different spec of the same class has a better chance of making that not happen? Pre 3.0 you went Madness for certain fights and Lightning for others. That isn't the case now.

 

2) Again I'd say judging a class/spec based on anything but max level is a bit premature. The problem with looking at 500k as a number by itself is that you don't take into consideration what you lost a DPS in order to get those heals. Again, if we're talking competitive you'll be in a group with a healer. At that point it's more important for a DPS to DPS.

 

3) Madness was very good at sustained DPS pre 3.0. If you wanted burst you went lightning and if you wanted sustained(and dot dmg reduction) you went Madness. Before 3.0 I played lightning and Madness and eventually stayed with Madness towards the end of 2.?. Lightning certainly had its advantages in certain fights, but people didn't say "Why don't you go Lightning for better dps?" when they saw you were Madness.

 

4) Lightning and Madness' rotation hasn't radically changed. Specifically Lightning has a more difficult rotation (and imo always has) than Madness does and Lightning is still parsing higher. In regards to parsing I don't think we've ever had hundred of thousand parses so effectively what you're saying is that there's no such thing as reliable data in this game. I didn't say sometimes, I said "consistently" which means an average. You have to take into account player skill (i.e did this guy just start playing at 3.0) so obviously there's some margin of error. It isn't every now and then Lightning does better. It's overall in both burst(which it should be) and sustained(which it should not be).

 

I'll say that I think PvP is a pretty small portion of the game (and the devs not giving PvPers any new content in 3.0 reflects that) so even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that PvP madness is fine, the larger issue is that they're not in the main portion of the game.

[TitusOfTides]

I like the way you numbered them.

 

1) Like I said earlier I can't really speak on pvp, but simply doing damage doesn't mean a boss will die. Bosses will enrage if you don't kill them quickly enough which equals a wipe. As a "competitive" (because casual players play the spec they enjoy because they enjoy it) player why risk the boss enraging if a different spec of the same class has a better chance of making that not happen? Pre 3.0 you went Madness for certain fights and Lightning for others. That isn't the case now.

 

2) Again I'd say judging a class/spec based on anything but max level is a bit premature. The problem with looking at 500k as a number by itself is that you don't take into consideration what you lost a DPS in order to get those heals. Again, if we're talking competitive you'll be in a group with a healer. At that point it's more important for a DPS to DPS.

 

3) Madness was very good at sustained DPS pre 3.0. If you wanted burst you went lightning and if you wanted sustained(and dot dmg reduction) you went Madness. Before 3.0 I played lightning and Madness and eventually stayed with Madness towards the end of 2.?. Lightning certainly had its advantages in certain fights, but people didn't say "Why don't you go Lightning for better dps?" when they saw you were Madness.

 

4) Lightning and Madness' rotation hasn't radically changed. Specifically Lightning has a more difficult rotation (and imo always has) than Madness does and Lightning is still parsing higher. In regards to parsing I don't think we've ever had hundred of thousand parses so effectively what you're saying is that there's no such thing as reliable data in this game. I didn't say sometimes, I said "consistently" which means an average. You have to take into account player skill (i.e did this guy just start playing at 3.0) so obviously there's some margin of error. It isn't every now and then Lightning does better. It's overall in both burst(which it should be) and sustained(which it should not be).

 

I'll say that I think PvP is a pretty small portion of the game (and the devs not giving PvPers any new content in 3.0 reflects that) so even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that PvP madness is fine, the larger issue is that they're not in the main portion of the game.

 

1/2/3) Those are good points. However, (no pun intended) a 'Balance' between DPS and healing/utility shouldn't give higher damage than a pure DPS spec - and each spec does serve best in a certain situation (it would just seem that those situations for Madness and Balance are lower in frequency than that of TK/Lightning). So while it may be true that you may be out DPS'd (not by much if I remember the last results I looked at), if you are assailing multiple targets while at the same absorbing their vitality (sorry couldn't resist ) it really does add another dimension to PvP.

 

4) While I didn't mean to specifically quote you on "sometimes" (might be using my punctuation incorrectly - I cannot remember the difference between ' and " atm), you would be correct; with the need for a much larger pool of data, the parsing has never been reliable enough to definitively say what we think it does. Any statistician would confirm this, and many of the prominent theorycrafters on these boards and related podcasts have even said so themselves. If you could run a test to measure player skill, you could then begin to say how it effects the numbers projected, but until then it is all speculation - which is all we are really doing at this point. To go even further, you could say someone switching from 2.X to 3.0 might even have more problems than someone starting fresh in 3.0 (especially since the purpose of certain trees have changed, and preconceived notions are hard to get rid of after years of having them) - but again, that is speculation and it holds no actual merit. Again, even if it were consistently lower damage than the other discipline, that just about balances out the other benefits you gain from madness. If this were not the case, we would have more damage and more utility - and this would be the discipline everyone complains about (which makes me also want to note again that there is a proper time and place for every ability and discipline).

 

While PvP may be the smaller portion of the game, it would accurately reflect why these disciplines are used by a smaller portion of players. But on a side note, to my understanding the ranked gear has changed significantly since 3.0. Other than that, the only really practical content that could be added to PvP would be maps or game modes - and (depending on your server) Shadow of Revan effectively delivers that.

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

Again, even if it were consistently lower damage than the other discipline, that just about balances out the other benefits you gain from madness. If this were not the case, we would have more damage and more utility - and this would be the discipline everyone complains about (which makes me also want to note again that there is a proper time and place for every ability and discipline)..

 

At this point I don't know enough about PvP to really give any counter arguments regarding it. I will say that the healing is so negligible(from a purely PvE perspective) when you have 2 dedicated healers, that it's the loss of DPS that actually matters. The increased survivability is so small that it's hardly noticed. For PvP where every man is his own army I can see it helping (although how much compared to a healer I couldn't say), but for PvE it's not enough. Likely because most raids are single target fights.

 

Thanks to utilities the passive advantages that Madness had can now be picked up by any spec, which is great. However, in addition to the lower DPS compared to Lightning I can't see a reason to run Madness in PvE. If Madness really is still as good as you make it sound then BW needs to have PvE and PvP skills so that one spec doesn't get shafted because a buff would make it "OP" in another format.

[TitusOfTides]

At this point I don't know enough about PvP to really give any counter arguments regarding it. I will say that the healing is so negligible(from a purely PvE perspective) when you have 2 dedicated healers, that it's the loss of DPS that actually matters. The increased survivability is so small that it's hardly noticed. For PvP where every man is his own army I can see it helping (although how much compared to a healer I couldn't say), but for PvE it's not enough. Likely because most raids are single target fights.

 

Thanks to utilities the passive advantages that Madness had can now be picked up by any spec, which is great. However, in addition to the lower DPS compared to Lightning I can't see a reason to run Madness in PvE. If Madness really is still as good as you make it sound then BW needs to have PvE and PvP skills so that one spec doesn't get shafted because a buff would make it "OP" in another format.

 

The only reason I would say they have the edge on utility would just be because the "Force Mobility" skill isn't as needed on Madness as Lightning, but that's just my opinion. Other than that, I absolutely agree with you.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

1/2/3) Those are good points. However, (no pun intended) a 'Balance' between DPS and healing/utility shouldn't give higher damage than a pure DPS spec - and each spec does serve best in a certain situation (it would just seem that those situations for Madness and Balance are lower in frequency than that of TK/Lightning). So while it may be true that you may be out DPS'd (not by much if I remember the last results I looked at), if you are assailing multiple targets while at the same absorbing their vitality (sorry couldn't resist ) it really does add another dimension to PvP.

 

4) While I didn't mean to specifically quote you on "sometimes" (might be using my punctuation incorrectly - I cannot remember the difference between ' and " atm), you would be correct; with the need for a much larger pool of data, the parsing has never been reliable enough to definitively say what we think it does. Any statistician would confirm this, and many of the prominent theorycrafters on these boards and related podcasts have even said so themselves. If you could run a test to measure player skill, you could then begin to say how it effects the numbers projected, but until then it is all speculation - which is all we are really doing at this point. To go even further, you could say someone switching from 2.X to 3.0 might even have more problems than someone starting fresh in 3.0 (especially since the purpose of certain trees have changed, and preconceived notions are hard to get rid of after years of having them) - but again, that is speculation and it holds no actual merit. Again, even if it were consistently lower damage than the other discipline, that just about balances out the other benefits you gain from madness. If this were not the case, we would have more damage and more utility - and this would be the discipline everyone complains about (which makes me also want to note again that there is a proper time and place for every ability and discipline).

 

While PvP may be the smaller portion of the game, it would accurately reflect why these disciplines are used by a smaller portion of players. But on a side note, to my understanding the ranked gear has changed significantly since 3.0. Other than that, the only really practical content that could be added to PvP would be maps or game modes - and (depending on your server) Shadow of Revan effectively delivers that.

 

(1) Balance / Madness is NOT a healing / DPS hybrid. that's like saying sentinel watchmen is a healz / DPS hybrid. cause you know - dots, self-healz. So, What I really see is that you, Titus, only say things from a PvP perspective. Well, look at that, I don't PvP. I don't like it. I'm a raider. And sage Balance is my main spec, I have 4 level 60 sages and a level 60 sorcerer. I run balance / madness on all of them...... or I used to, before 3.0 that is.

 

(2) True, Parsing might not be the most accurate way to judge things, but neither are warzones. If you're in PvP gear and your opponent is not, you'll hit him harder (or at least it was that way pre-3.0). As far as data. well I can just reliably say that I am parsing right now about a 100 less then i was pre-3.0, which all other DPS specs are doing way better then before. So I don't know about you, but for me that's enough to know that yes something is worse then it used to be.

 

(3) Just cause something is used in PvP doesn't mean it's only good for PvP. Balance / Madness was awesome and now look at what they did to it.

[TitusOfTides]

(1) Balance / Madness is NOT a healing / DPS hybrid. that's like saying sentinel watchmen is a healz / DPS hybrid. cause you know - dots, self-healz. So, What I really see is that you, Titus, only say things from a PvP perspective. Well, look at that, I don't PvP. I don't like it. I'm a raider. And sage Balance is my main spec, I have 4 level 60 sages and a level 60 sorcerer. I run balance / madness on all of them...... or I used to, before 3.0 that is.

 

(2) True, Parsing might not be the most accurate way to judge things, but neither are warzones. If you're in PvP gear and your opponent is not, you'll hit him harder (or at least it was that way pre-3.0). As far as data. well I can just reliably say that I am parsing right now about a 100 less then i was pre-3.0, which all other DPS specs are doing way better then before. So I don't know about you, but for me that's enough to know that yes something is worse then it used to be.

 

(3) Just cause something is used in PvP doesn't mean it's only good for PvP. Balance / Madness was awesome and now look at what they did to it.

 

1) I understand, and I may have misspoke (mistyped?). While it is definitely not a healing hybrid, it is undeniable that the healing you can gain from spreading to (up to) 8 targets does offer an additional set of pros/cons. It's great you don't PvP, but I fail to see the relevance of pointing this out - especially considering only a few moments ago myself and another had come to the conclusion that it may be more suited to PvP. To come to this conclusion, I had to acknowledge that it was not as "effective" in PvE as a "pure" DPS spec - in some ways. Additionally, it's safe to say that most of the time you will still do enough DPS to avoid the rage timers - seeing as the loss of DPS isnt going to be marginal enough to consistently cause a wipe. Additionally, it has always been my stance from the beginning that this still works (very well) in PvE.

 

2) That is a very valid point. The DPS has dropped from what it was before, but it's a whole new game with 3.0. The self healing has increased - and with the added utility options, utility has also arguably been increased for this discipline. It may not be the spec you remember and love, but it's still entirely viable in both situations - as a 100pt loss in DPS isn't really enough to cause a wipe, while it is enough to cause people focusing on just the damage numbers to think they've been shafted. You may have lost 100, but consider what you have gained in other areas.

 

3) I also agree with you here. Personally, I believe it's viable in both PvE and PvP - but may shine more in PvP scenarios (if the extra healing and utility really aren't needed in PvE). It has changed from what it once was, but not necessarily for the worse.

 

If I failed to respond to something you mentioned, please point it out and I would be happy to continue discussing this with you. I know at first glance it seems like there is a huge setback on this discipline, but (in your case) a 100pt loss in exchange for the extra survivabiity and other added features is a fair trade-off to some - and you can't make everybody happy. Also, if I have come across as unorganized or confrontational I truly apologize (especially for being unorganized!)

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

It's not the -100 DPS will cause a wipe, but the fact that compared to the other DPS spec: Lightning Madness is weaker. You have to look at -100 DPS Madness gets and the increase damage Lightning got. It's all about how do you minimize that chance you'll hit an enrage timer. If Lightning (or better yet all DPS specs) were around the same DPS level this wouldn't be an issue. The problem occurs when it's obvious that another spec is better in almost all the situations (in PvE).

 

If you look at things in a vacuum then sure, Madness got better for a small hit in damage. When you look at Madness compared to all other DPS specs it's one of the worst specs you can go into now. Whether than means the other specs need to be brought back in line or that Madness needs a buff it really doesn't matter. This disparity is the problem, not the actual numbers.

Edited January 30, 2015 by CloudzDeven

[TitusOfTides]

It's not the -100 DPS will cause a wipe, but the fact that compared to the other DPS spec: Lightning Madness is weaker. You have to look at -100 DPS Madness gets and the increase damage Lightning got. It's all about how do you minimize that chance you'll hit an enrage timer. If Lightning (or better yet all DPS specs) were around the same DPS level this wouldn't be an issue. The problem occurs when it's obvious that another spec is better in almost all the situations (in PvE).

 

I see what you're getting at here, (forgive my laziness atm) but about how much more are people gaining from Lightning/TK than they used to? If weighed against all of the other benefits of Madness/Balance, is this discipline truly becoming void in PvE? I know before you mentioned healing isn't always necessary, but... (really slow on Jung Ma atm, so Ill just list all of the "perks" rq)

 

Self healing, execute passive, rippling force proc, dot spread, 2nd overwhelm (cannot remember if this stacks with tidal force/chain lightning), vanquish debuff (I know both get this, but mind crush/crushing darkness arent as prominent in the rotation on TK/lightning as they are on balance/madness)

 

Anyways, considering all of those benefits, are they really out of place in PvE? I can see how they could contribute to the success of the team in different ways, but as it has been kindly pointed out I am not as experience in PvE. It just really seems like everyone is so focused on the slight loss of damage (I understand the spread you pointed out with the gains in other classes) that the new benefits tend to get overlooked.

 

Edit: I also just remembered (not credible data by any means, but worth considering) that in one particular hard mode our healer was suffering. I was able to throw up some dot and take full advantage of the sage abilities and off heal a little bit (as well as bubble allies). I know a TK/Lightning could do this just as well, but with the hit and forget nature of dots it made it a lot easier. Also, with the pain bearer utility you can actually get some pretty large heals off on yourself (especially if you hit force potency/recklessness) I know im getting a bit more unorganized here, but it looks like Jung Ma is starting to wake up a bit

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

I see what you're getting at here, (forgive my laziness atm) but about how much more are people gaining from Lightning/TK than they used to? If weighed against all of the other benefits of Madness/Balance, is this discipline truly becoming void in PvE? I know before you mentioned healing isn't always necessary, but... (really slow on Jung Ma atm, so Ill just list all of the "perks" rq)

 

Self healing, execute passive, rippling force proc, dot spread, 2nd overwhelm (cannot remember if this stacks with tidal force/chain lightning), vanquish debuff (I know both get this, but mind crush/crushing darkness arent as prominent in the rotation on TK/lightning as they are on balance/madness)

 

Anyways, considering all of those benefits, are they really out of place in PvE? I can see how they could contribute to the success of the team in different ways, but as it has been kindly pointed out I am not as experience in PvE. It just really seems like everyone is so focused on the slight loss of damage (I understand the spread you pointed out with the gains in other classes) that the new benefits tend to get overlooked.

 

I'm actually at work right now, so I can't go through the threads and find the parse comparisons. It's enough to make you run Lightning if you're doing the level 65 operations. SM included. My memory is really crappy, but it was in the range of 500-800 I think. I know it wasn't less than that.

 

>Self-healing is a moot point in raids. Healers do more than you can possibly heal.

>RF does little damage overall and more so is just for force regen. A problem Lightning spec doesn't have. Go parse on a dummy and look at how much damage the skill actually does.

>DoT spread like I said is also a moot point since in raids trash dies too quickly for DoTs to really do their stuff and boss fights are typically single target fights. Ironically Madness was the best single target spec for Sorcs pre 3.0.

>Both specs can apply Overwhelm so I'm not seeing how this helps Madness specifically. Vulnerable and Overwhelm are just applied by different skills.

>Looking at all the buffs Lightning got for CD (http://dulfy.net/2014/12/18/swtor-3-0-lightning-sorcerer-dps-guide-by-ktap/) I don't see why they wouldn't use it.

 

Again you're looking at Madness in a vacuum. I find it funny that you ask if they're really out of place considering the benefits and then you talk about how I mentioned the gains of the other classes outweigh the gains of Madness.

[TitusOfTides]

I'm actually at work right now, so I can't go through the threads and find the parse comparisons. It's enough to make you run Lightning if you're doing the level 65 operations. SM included. My memory is really crappy, but it was in the range of 500-800 I think. I know it wasn't less than that.

 

>Self-healing is a moot point in raids. Healers do more than you can possibly heal.

>RF does little damage overall and more so is just for force regen. A problem Lightning spec doesn't have. Go parse on a dummy and look at how much damage the skill actually does.

>DoT spread like I said is also a moot point since in raids trash dies too quickly for DoTs to really do their stuff and boss fights are typically single target fights. Ironically Madness was the best single target spec for Sorcs pre 3.0.

>Both specs can apply Overwhelm so I'm not seeing how this helps Madness specifically. Vulnerable and Overwhelm are just applied by different skills.

>Looking at all the buffs Lightning got for CD (http://dulfy.net/2014/12/18/swtor-3-0-lightning-sorcerer-dps-guide-by-ktap/) I don't see why they wouldn't use it.

 

Again you're looking at Madness in a vacuum. I find it funny that you ask if they're really out of place considering the benefits and then you talk about how I mentioned the gains of the other classes outweigh the gains of Madness.

 

I'm only trying to objectively weigh all sides of the argument. In all honesty, saying that because it gets out DPS'd is the end of the argument is more of a vacuum perspective than what I am offering. I am just trying to point out that while to some people it's not ideal to have a drop in DPS, there is much more that occurs in PvE and PvP combat than just standing there casting away watching your damage numbers. Especially if you are relying on group finder, you can't always depend on the teammates you are placed with - and this gives you some more room to pick up their slack. It might not be best in class for pure damage, but there are many other factors to consider in either setting.

 

I really don't understand how my perspective can be labeled as looking into a vacuum (let alone humorous), as I am trying to point out the versatility of the discipline and hoping that people stop looking at these classes in a vacuum - but at the same time I am openly asking anyone who disagrees to voice why.

 

 

Edit: Also, I will try and get some parsing data uploaded later today. The Dulfy guides really have some great info, but I honestly think they are wrong on the rotation for this discipline and that may be affecting the parsing data. This will be the first time I have done it myself, what seems to be the best program to use? This thread has several listed, but I have a really busy day ahead of me today and can't put too much time into researching which one is more comprehensive. If someone would be able to point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.. I'm expecting the numbers to still be lower than TK, but I've already stated the reasons which I believe balance/madness makes up for this.

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

I'm only trying to objectively weigh all sides of the argument. In all honesty, saying that because it gets out DPS'd is the end of the argument is more of a vacuum perspective than what I am offering. I am just trying to point out that while to some people it's not ideal to have a drop in DPS, there is much more that occurs in PvE and PvP combat than just standing there casting away watching your damage numbers. Especially if you are relying on group finder, you can't always depend on the teammates you are placed with - and this gives you some more room to pick up their slack. It might not be best in class for pure damage, but there are many other factors to consider in either setting.

 

I really don't understand how my perspective can be labeled as looking into a vacuum (let alone humorous), as I am trying to point out the versatility of the discipline and hoping that people stop looking at these classes in a vacuum - but at the same time I am openly asking anyone who disagrees to voice why.

 

Edit: Also, I will try and get some parsing data uploaded later today. The Dulfy guides really have some great info, but I honestly think they are wrong on the rotation for this discipline.

 

Your opinion isn't humorous. You misread. What was humorous was that in the same paragraph you do something I mentioned you doing previously and then acknowledge that I mentioned it.

 

I already said competitive players. Competitive players have static or guild groups they go with. They don't use group finder. I think I also mentioned the difference is more important for HM/NM operations (and the tight enrage timers) and the lvl 65 SM operations. I'm sure the spec doesn't matter for flashpoints. I've gotten away with just using half my rotation and spamming my DoTs and we've won.

 

What you're talking about is the casual player who occasionally raids. At that point a whole other set of things come into consideration like actual skill and experience. Just like no one looks towards the player who just started playing at 3.0 for good parses likewise you shouldn't look to casual raiders to see how good or bad a spec is.

 

You're further splitting hairs by saying "well what if the group isn't good." You're just throwing different scenarios in that no one here can objectively argue. What if the group is good?

 

Finally I'm saying you're looking at the spec in a vacuum because you haven't once compared it do Lightning. You've said Madness does x, y and z, but you haven't said what it does better than Lightning. Except for healing but we've already gone through that and how much it matters.

 

But I'll play along with the "what if the group isn't good" scenario. Let's say they aren't. How is the Madness spec going to help the group complete an operation compared to Lightning? The heals aren't going to suffice with the damage bosses put out if you think they can compensate for a bad healer.

[TitusOfTides]

Your opinion isn't humorous. You misread. What was humorous was that in the same paragraph you do something I mentioned you doing previously and then acknowledge that I mentioned it.

 

I already said competitive players. Competitive players have static or guild groups they go with. They don't use group finder. I think I also mentioned the difference is more important for HM/NM operations (and the tight enrage timers) and the lvl 65 SM operations. I'm sure the spec doesn't matter for flashpoints. I've gotten away with just using half my rotation and spamming my DoTs and we've won.

 

What you're talking about is the casual player who occasionally raids. At that point a whole other set of things come into consideration like actual skill and experience. Just like no one looks towards the player who just started playing at 3.0 for good parses likewise you shouldn't look to casual raiders to see how good or bad a spec is.

 

You're further splitting hairs by saying "well what if the group isn't good." You're just throwing different scenarios in that no one here can objectively argue. What if the group is good?

 

Finally I'm saying you're looking at the spec in a vacuum because you haven't once compared it do Lightning. You've said Madness does x, y and z, but you haven't said what it does better than Lightning. Except for healing but we've already gone through that and how much it matters.

 

But I'll play along with the "what if the group isn't good" scenario. Let's say they aren't. How is the Madness spec going to help the group complete an operation compared to Lightning? The heals aren't going to suffice with the damage bosses put out if you think they can compensate for a bad healer.

 

Oh. Well in that case, I may have been unclear in what I meant. I was just trying to acknowledge that they do lose some DPS, but whether or not the benefits gained are a worthy trade-off is entirely a matter of opinion.

 

As far as competitive players are concerned, you could then say that (purely example) we need X Healers of A Class, Y Tanks of B Class, and Z DPS of C Class, simply because they parse higher on average. If that were the case, you would only really need 3 classes, and all the rest are as worthless as Balance.

 

To point out that I have only played since 3.0 seems to be an unworthy discredit. I can already tell that I am more skilled than players who have been playing since launch (irrelevant), but also I have been theorycrafting on this game since before launch. Furthermore, to say that this amounts to nothing is to discredit the very premise of theorycrafting in general.

 

Now I get to say you are improperly quoting me. I was merely trying to point out that, as we have already agreed, there are certain situations where any spec could be more valuable than the next.

 

On your "final" note, I have consistently acknowledged that Lightning does higher damage. I would say that's a pretty obvious comparison. Also, I've mentioned not only self heals, but the control and mobility gained with balance/madness. I'll touch on this lightly again, but I really would prefer not to repeat what I've already written more than once. Of course we gain the 2s root every 9s, but you aren't pigeonholed into grabbing force mobility like a lightning or tk user is - this allows you to grab any of the other great utility options, which grant (you guessed it) more utility. You may say you can grab those with TK/Lighting, but then you sacrifice mobility to gain (close to) the same utility as a balance, and then you are still roughly not as mobile (sure there are procs, but there are always a couple GCDs inbetween where you have to hard cast something). Especially considering most of balance's abilities are also instant (and most do not rely on procs to become so).

 

On your other final note, if you really aren't the top DPS, it's safe to assume you wont pull aggro. But we all know that everyone needs heals eventually, and this really decreases the amount your group's healer will have to cast on you. The job will still get done, you just might not be the star of the team - but that's life. It honestly seems like you are misunderstanding a civil discussion for some type of argument, as you are coming across as rude, which is unfortunate because I thought (for a time) we were really being mutually respectful.

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I just want to point out that level cap is 60, not 65 >.> since i've seen it mentioned as 65 more then once >.>

 

And saying that being out-dps'd might not be too bad since we have such and such utility, well... for the raid buff you take a sage healer to cast it, and then well a healer can bubble / pull people just as easy. Self-healz while nice do not make balance sage / madness sorc unique, nor are those self heals actually that strong (esp. on underlurker), and for any progression team people usually prefer DPS who do good numbers. When you look at it from this side, I fail to see how the benefits outweigh the negatives. Please make me see the light, I'm clearly missing it.

Also mobility of a madness sorc / balance sage and their root ability won't help any in a boss fight. so that benefit is purely PvP. even the sage 6-piece set bonus 100% benefits just lightning / TK

 

P.S. #2: TK throw spam is still most of what we do in balance. that is NOT channeled on the move, so actually i find i am more mobile in Telekinetics / lightning.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Hichitsuki-hime

[TitusOfTides]

I just want to point out that level cap is 60, not 65 >.> since i've seen it mentioned as 65 more then once >.>

 

And saying that being out-dps'd might not be too bad since we have such and such utility, well... for the raid buff you take a sage healer to cast it, and then well a healer can bubble / pull people just as easy. Self-healz while nice do not make balance sage / madness sorc unique, nor are those self heals actually that strong (esp. on underlurker), and for any progression team people usually prefer DPS who do good numbers. When you look at it from this side, I fail to see how the benefits outweigh the negatives. Please make me see the light, I'm clearly missing it.

Also mobility of a madness sorc / balance sage and their root ability won't help any in a boss fight. so that benefit is purely PvP. even the sage 6-piece set bonus 100% benefits just lightning / TK

 

P.S. #2: TK throw spam is still most of what we do in balance. that is NOT channeled on the move, so actually i find i am more mobile in Telekinetics / lightning.

 

I see what you mean there. With that in mind, I would be inclined to say that it isn't superior in those circumstances - unless there was some need for an intermediary type class to pick up slack between the two roles, which it seems in most raids you really wouldn't need after all. I would imagine then that it would fit a real small niche role, if that's the case I don't really think that warrants a revamp - only because I would imagine that would drastically effect the PvP side of the spec, where it is already really strong, and then we'd likely have a new thread on how it needs to be nerfed on that end. (Do you mean the PvP 6-Piece bonus? I'm not too familiar with the PvE set, but the 2/3 (or even 3/3) of the bonuses from the PvP set apply and really help madness/balance too)

 

On that note, I've noticed a lot of people seem to be neglecting Project (with the 50% utility) which (at least on WZs) contributes a lot of damage while on the move. but TK throw/FL and serenity seem to be the only abilities with a timer I run into atm, but with my current gearing (almost full alacrity) and mental alacrity buff running it's only about 1.5s (throw) and about 1.1s for serenity I have to stand still for, but I definitely see your point there. I used to use force mobility to just stand still on throw, but I use containment now for extra cc - and find that robbing them of their mobility (PvP again, sorry) works out better for me overall (I also use pinning resolve so I get my force stun back about 30s after I use it, but thats besides the point )

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I see what you mean there. With that in mind, I would be inclined to say that it isn't superior in those circumstances - unless there was some need for an intermediary type class to pick up slack between the two roles, which it seems in most raids you really wouldn't need after all. I would imagine then that it would fit a real small niche role, if that's the case I don't really think that warrants a revamp - only because I would imagine that would drastically effect the PvP side of the spec, where it is already really strong, and then we'd likely have a new thread on how it needs to be nerfed on that end. (Do you mean the PvP 6-Piece bonus? I'm not too familiar with the PvE set, but the 2/3 (or even 3/3) of the bonuses from the PvP set apply and really help madness/balance too)

 

On that note, I've noticed a lot of people seem to be neglecting Project (with the 50% utility) which (at least on WZs) contributes a lot of damage while on the move. but TK throw/FL and serenity seem to be the only abilities with a timer I run into atm, but with my current gearing (almost full alacrity) and mental alacrity buff running it's only about 1.5s (throw) and about 1.1s for serenity I have to stand still for, but I definitely see your point there. I used to use force mobility to just stand still on throw, but I use containment now for extra cc - and find that robbing them of their mobility (PvP again, sorry) works out better for me overall (I also use pinning resolve so I get my force stun back about 30s after I use it, but thats besides the point )

 

and that is what the problem is. and it's not a unique singular event either. It happens now and then to any spec when they buff something and then have to nerf it because it's over-performing in PvP.

Accuracy in PvP is nto as important as it is in PvE and so the gearing for PvP is much different I imagine. and yes, i meant the PvE 6-piece set bonus.

As you said, TK throw is the only channeled ability, but you have to agree - we do have to spam it a lot =) and well, 2 seconds is a lot =) in a raid at least.

bottom line is they need to balance the balance better lol, because madness / balance being what it is, it's not really competitive compared to TK, so if we want to do do good DPS, we need to go TK, I for one do not appreciate being forced to swap specs like this, especially since i suck at TK and i just plain do not enjoy it.

SO yeah, my opinion is quite bitter about the situation and very emotionally tinted, but well, i want to play the game the way i enjoy it =) i'm certainly not alone in that desire >.>

[TitusOfTides]

and that is what the problem is. and it's not a unique singular event either. It happens now and then to any spec when they buff something and then have to nerf it because it's over-performing in PvP.

Accuracy in PvP is nto as important as it is in PvE and so the gearing for PvP is much different I imagine. and yes, i meant the PvE 6-piece set bonus.

As you said, TK throw is the only channeled ability, but you have to agree - we do have to spam it a lot =) and well, 2 seconds is a lot =) in a raid at least.

bottom line is they need to balance the balance better lol, because madness / balance being what it is, it's not really competitive compared to TK, so if we want to do do good DPS, we need to go TK, I for one do not appreciate being forced to swap specs like this, especially since i suck at TK and i just plain do not enjoy it.

SO yeah, my opinion is quite bitter about the situation and very emotionally tinted, but well, i want to play the game the way i enjoy it =) i'm certainly not alone in that desire >.>

 

Bottom line does indeed seem to be (in pve): balance this madness!

 

Edit: This makes me wonder now, in what ways could they do this, without boosting it in PvP? Champion damage bonus? I'm drawing a bit of a blank at this point

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

SNIP.

The reason you don't want only 3 classes is because each class has it's own raid wide buff it can use. Using only 3 classes would limit you to just those 3 buffs. When you're comparing classes instead of specs the differences are less nuanced than specs. With classes entire skills,passive and mechanics are widely different. With specs it's small differences that typically don't make that great of a difference. You're not comparing apples to apples when you compare classes to specs.

 

I actually wasn't talking about you. You just happen to not have played since 3.0. The reason I mention 3.0 is because it's a relevant patch since that's when the changes we're talking about hit. The difference between 2.? and 3.0 and very different and someone(not necessarily you) who hasn't played before is at a disadvantage when they compare. Specifically about you, I have an issue with theorycrafting instead of actual experience. There's only so much reading and watching will do and I wouldn't consider your knowledge on theorycrafting to be on par with someone who has played pve before 3.0 (Specifically in this instance me, but in general any "decent" player").

 

I'll have to take you at your word when it comes to pvp, but in PvE I can't see any competitive reason in the situations I've talked about(HM/NM operations and the new operations) why a sorc DPS would choose to go Madness instead of Lightning and the points you made earlier I've more or less refuted from a PvE perspective.

 

The root you get with Madness doesn't affect bosses. It's a useless trait. The only non-instant skills Lightning uses is

Thundering Blast , CD and I think 1 more skill that can proc to be instant. For Madness Force Lightning, Demolish(can be instant) and Force Leech.

 

As far as raids are concerned there's no niche need for Madness. It doesn't fulfill anything as a DPS that's specifically needed for it. Which again, is the issue at hand. Raids want the most DPS they can get(because a good team has tanks and healers who keep DPS alive so that they can DPS) and Madness isn't the best DPS spec a Sorc has.

I just want to point out that level cap is 60, not 65 >.> since i've seen it mentioned as 65 more then once >.>

Sorry I've been playing TERA for the past 4 days lol. Level cap there is 65. Just now realized that lol.

Edited January 30, 2015 by CloudzDeven

[TitusOfTides]

The reason you don't want only 3 classes is because each class has it's own raid wide buff it can use. Using only 3 classes would limit you to just those 3 buffs. When you're comparing classes instead of specs the differences are less nuanced than specs. With classes entire skills,passive and mechanics are widely different. With specs it's small differences that typically don't make that great of a difference. You're not comparing apples to apples when you compare classes to specs.

 

I actually wasn't talking about you. You just happen to not have played since 3.0. The reason I mention 3.0 is because it's a relevant patch since that's when the changes we're talking about hit. The difference between 2.? and 3.0 and very different and someone(not necessarily you) who hasn't played before is at a disadvantage when they compare. Specifically about you, I have an issue with theorycrafting instead of actual experience. There's only so much reading and watching will do and I wouldn't consider your knowledge on theorycrafting to be on par with someone who has played pve before 3.0 (Specifically in this instance me, but in general any "decent" player").

 

I'll have to take you at your word when it comes to pvp, but in PvE I can't see any competitive reason in the situations I've talked about(HM/NM operations and the new operations) why a sorc DPS would choose to go Madness instead of Lightning and the points you made earlier I've more or less refuted from a PvE perspective.

 

The root you get with Madness doesn't affect bosses. It's a useless trait. The only non-instant skills Lightning uses is

Thundering Blast , CD and I think 1 more skill that can proc to be instant. For Madness Force Lightning, Demolish(can be instant) and Force Leech.

 

As far as raids are concerned there's no niche need for Madness. It doesn't fulfill anything as a DPS that's specifically needed for it. Which again, is the issue at hand. Raids want the most DPS they can get(because a good team has tanks and healers who keep DPS alive so that they can DPS) and Madness isn't the best DPS spec a Sorc has.

 

Sorry I've been playing TERA for the past 4 days lol. I got em mixed up. Just now realized that lol.

 

You snipped me! (My girlfriend has been trying to do that for YEARS! JK)

 

In all seriousness, those are very good points - especially when you do factor in the damage difference between the two classes. It is obvious to me now that something should be done to increase effectiveness in PvE, but in a way that the PvP role does not become over powered.

[CloudzDeven]

You snipped me!.

 

I haven't played GW2 since launch, but GW(the original) had different skills for PvP and PvE.(I.e Force Lighting for PvE does 1500 dmg and in PvP it does 500). The skills were named the same and (typically) functioned the same. The change only occurred once you entered a PvP area and the relevant skills were automatically swapped for their PvP version.

[TitusOfTides]

I haven't played GW2 since launch, but GW(the original) had different skills for PvP and PvE.(I.e Force Lighting for PvE does 1500 dmg and in PvP it does 500). The skills were named the same and (typically) functioned the same. The change only occurred once you entered a PvP area and the relevant skills were automatically swapped for their PvP version.

 

That's a good idea. I could even see them doing it the other way around (whichever is easier), as in once you enter the OP you would get the OP version, etc. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to implement either, maybe it could function something like the Bolster system.

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Hichitsuki-hime]

the question though, will they and WHEN will they actually do something to fix the situation >.>

 

 

 

BioWare throw us a bone here!!!

[TitusOfTides]

BioWare throw us a bone here!!!

 

We would also like sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads.

 

Could be a BH skill.

[CloudzDeven]

the question though, will they and WHEN will they actually do something to fix the situation >.>

 

 

 

BioWare throw us a bone here!!!

 

Maybe by balance they meant that all the "good" specs would be bad and all the "bad" specs would be good. They could just be making up for the time period where most people went Madness. So maybe 4.0?

[AdamLKvist]

I've found the easiest fix to this problem without affecting PvP too much (maybe this has already been mentioned). Make the lightning strike/disturbance reduce the CD on demolish/vanquish by X seconds (as per balance to reach PvE target goals). By doing this you can easily increase effectiveness in PvE while still retaining a lot of counterplay in PvP. Only a freecasting sorcerer will benefit in PvP because facetanking force lightning over and over isnt a viable alternative and it still requires wrath.

 

Easy fix.