Who is the real Sith'ari?

[Kaedusz]

Bane wouldn't matter. Bane was weaker than Zannah. Who was weaker than her apprentice. Who was weaker than her... etc to Palpatine. That was the whole point of rule of two.

philistinism in its finest.because theory always matches reality right?right?

 

Ever read any marvel/dc comics? There's multiple conflicting things that are all true.

And there it is.

I am not sure whether to cry or laugh after this.

Sorry,did you just say i have to read about people that dress up in halloween costumes of spiders,bats and whatever else in order to talk about Star Wars?

Not to mention that the second sentence makes everything that you said till now invalid.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

philistinism in its finest.because theory always matches reality right?right?

 

 

And there it is.

I am not sure whether to cry or laugh after this.

Sorry,did you just say i have to read about people that dress up in halloween costumes of spiders,bats and whatever else in order to talk about Star Wars?

Not to mention that the second sentence makes everything that you said till now invalid.

 

You don't understand what an example and analogy is do you? Also it was confirmed that the rule of two works. It was outright stated in the novels, not to mention other mediums, (Encyclopedia, source books, etc.) that Sidious was the perfect end result of the rule of two. If you have trouble understanding analogy or comparisons to something else there is a term for it. Analogy/Comparisons are important to draw from in order to come to conclusions. It's a natural thought process that leads to the understanding of many different things and to explain where you're coming from in others.

 

The truth is pre Bane is legends. Just as post ROTJ is Legends. The new novels coming out are not part of the legends continuity. You like to believe that pre-bane isn't legends. It is. It's just as valid in the legends continuity as the Dark Empire comics because both are legends. One isn't "More legends" than others. There's two different things now.

 

Legends and Canon. Pre-Bane stuff has a higher chance at becoming True Canon but as it stands it is still Legends. You're essentially arguing that "My legends is more canon than your legends!" which is ridiculous considering that Disney doesn't care. To them Legends is Legends and they may or may not draw from it but until they do it's Non-Canon to their Canon. Disney disagrees with your logic and does not care for it.

 

Note that Marvel and DC aren't the only universes out there with Alternate timelines or Alternate Realities. Hell, Star Trek touched on it too.

 

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

 

The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.” (Death Star, page 76)

 

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

 

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"-- The Dark Empire Sourcebook.

 

“[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.”-- The Dark Side Sourcebook.

 

”Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.”-- The Complete Visual Dictionary.

 

"The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force." -- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

 

"Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy. What has proven to be the lasting genius of Palpatine as Emperor is his devotion to collecting all the knowledge of the Dark Side that he can, as well as what Light Side information he can corrupt and preserve. He is no more altruistic than any other, but his newfound immortality has given him the patience that all before him have lacked."

 

 

Force feats.

*Force Storms Wormholes that can destroy starfleets

* Force-based subjugation of ~20 billion sentients and the simultaneous leeching of their life energy

* Corrupting an entire planet, transforming it from a neutral territory to "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy"

* Blunting the Force sensitivity of ~10,000 collective Jedi for over a decade

* Slaughtering trained Force Jedi with a single bursts of Force energy on one's death bed.

* Disintegrating highly trained Sith acolytes with a single gout of Sith lightning.

* Destroying ~50 armored stormtroopers with a single gout of Sith lightning

* Shrugging off a Force-enhanced explosion from the energy of a Force-user powerful enough to manipulate a Star Destroyer.

* Manipulating the minds of seasoned thousands (perhaps millions) of fleet officers and members.

* Mindwipe the people of Coruscant to make them forget the burial of a star destroyer.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

Bane wouldn't matter. Bane was weaker than Zannah. Who was weaker than her apprentice. Who was weaker than her... etc to Palpatine. That was the whole point of rule of two. There was several dark side users luke met at that point. However, he made it clear that Kun "Almost" felt as strong as Palpatine. That.. matters.

 

A quote misinterpreted could be. He said he had not felt a "darkness" like that since Palpatine. That could just mean Malevolence/ evil instead of pure Power.

[Kaedusz]

snip

 

I am not questioning using analogy.I am questioning your analogy,which i guess you already knew.However am pretty sure you had to google philistinism and then decided to show biceps with that useless wall of text about analogies. (lol)

* * *

All i said is that there is only 1 version of stuff that happened before Bane, and 2, one of which is official after episode 6.That immediately give the stuff before bane more authenticity.

The fact that the crappy one and the stuff before Bane are both duped ''Legends'' after Disney or the matter of who is fan of which one is irrelevant in regards to the statement above.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

I am not questioning using analogy.I am questioning your analogy,which i guess you already knew.However am pretty sure you had to google philistinism and then decided to show biceps with that useless wall of text about analogies. (lol)

* * *

All i said is that there is only 1 version of stuff that happened before Bane, and 2, one of which is official after episode 6.That immediately give the stuff before bane more authenticity.

The fact that the crappy one and the stuff before Bane are both duped ''Legends'' after Disney or the matter of who is fan of which one is irrelevant in regards to the statement above.

 

I didn't google anything but you're quick to make assumptions aren't you? No. It matters. You claim that everything before bane is more relevant than the stuff after which is legends. It isn't. Legends is Legends. Period. I wonder what you justify in your head when you see that there's not a single person who agrees with you here and that you are alone in your opinions?

Edited December 21, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Aurbere]

I didn't google anything but you're quick to make assumptions aren't you? No. It matters. You claim that everything before bane is more relevant than the stuff after which is legends. It isn't. Legends is Legends. Period. I wonder what you justify in your head when you see that there's not a single person who agrees with you here and that you are alone in your opinions?

 

He seems to operate under the belief that, if he doesn't like it, it doesn't exist.

[dcaleb]

Palpatine's movie showings just don't allow me to ever take it seriously when other works insist he was the most powerful sith ever and could destroy planets and star fleets by himself. Yeah, he was really awesome at using the force to mask his presence and he was On the same level (or slightly above) guys like Yoda and Mace Windu in combat. But if he was even a tenth as powerful as some of the EU stuff tried to paint him as there was no way he would have let Yoda make it out of their fight alive (you can go with the theory of him throwing the fight to Mace to turn Anakin to explain that one). Not even mentioning the fact that 20 years later he apparently had a case of aggressive dementia and forgot everything he knew except 'shoot lightning at it' when Vader picked him up and slowly walked over to the open reactor shaft he inexplicably had placed in his throne room and threw him in. Edited December 21, 2014 by dcaleb

[Kaedusz]

It isn't.

 

It is because the new movies replace those legends,while nothing replaces the other legends.

Also using argumentum ad populum in a case in which even it's premise is wrong?This was your final nail in the coffin.

 

he doesn't like it.

I like everything Star Wars related by default.Not taking it seriously is another matter.

Also advice him on which color should he chose for his posts and i can already see you two making out. Maybe an o*gy with the whole Color Team?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

I like everything Star Wars related by default.Not taking it seriously is another matter.

Also advice him on which color should he chose for his posts and i can already see you two making out.Maybe an o*gy with the whole Color Team?

 

Wow...

[Rhyltran]

It is because the new movies replace those legends,while nothing replaces the other legends.

Also using argumentum ad populum in a case in which even it's premise is wrong?This was your final nail in the coffin.

 

 

I like everything Star Wars related by default.Not taking it seriously is another matter.

Also advice him on which color should he chose for his posts and i can already see you two making out. Maybe an o*gy with the whole Color Team?

 

You can't replace legends material. There's going to be books that "contradict legends." Here's the kicker. It won't be called legends. Past stuff is still legends. It's "Just as invalid" in disney's eyes as the stuff they already contradicted. Legends is Legends.

 

Here's the deal. If you want to argue Disney Canon stick to Disney Canon. That is anything that is actually considered Canon and ISN'T legends. If it's legends it is not part of disney canon. Everything before Bane is Legends. In Disney Canon currently there is no TOR. If you want to make some arguments about TOR and characters in TOR we're now discussing Legends.

 

You are essentially saying "My non-canon is more valid than your Non-Canon." Do you know what your material has in common with my material?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Rhyltran

[dcaleb]

Dark Empire is contradicted by Palpatine's showings in the movies, therefore it never happened. Anything that gives him power greater then that displayed in the movies is contradicted by top level canon and therefore not true.

 

Edit: Oh, and his showings in TCW count to, but I don't recall him doing anything in them that was better then what he did in RotS.

Edited December 22, 2014 by dcaleb

[Aurbere]

Dark Empire is contradicted by Palpatine's showings in the movies, therefore it never happened. Anything that gives him power greater then that displayed in the movies is contradicted by top level canon and therefore not true.

 

So basically all EU surrounding the movies is not canon (as far as Legends go)? Because I can tell you for sure that characters from the movies show off greater power than in the movies.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Aurbere

[Rhyltran]

Dark Empire is contradicted by Palpatine's showings in the movies, therefore it never happened. Anything that gives him power greater then that displayed in the movies is contradicted by top level canon and therefore not true.

 

Edit: Oh, and his showings in TCW count to, but I don't recall him doing anything in them that was better then what he did in RotS.

 

No it isn't. Dark Empire takes place after the movies. Can you show me where in the movies Palpatine didn't return in a clone body? Wait. There hasn't been anything outside the movies "Yet." Plus now there's Legends Sidious and Canon Sidious.

[dcaleb]

The clone bodies is one thing, he never had a need for that until Vader killed him so you could say that might be fair game. But stuff like being able to destroy entire planets and fleets with just his force powers? Why would he bother spending money on the Death Stars if he could just do that himself? His direct combat abilities are limited to what is displayed in the top tier canon and anything exceeding them is non-canon.

[Rhyltran]

The clone bodies is one thing, he never had a need for that until Vader killed him so you could say that might be fair game. But stuff like being able to destroy entire planets and fleets with just his force powers? Why would he bother spending money on the Death Stars if he could just do that himself? His direct combat abilities are limited to what is displayed in the top tier canon and anything exceeding them is non-canon.

 

Because he couldn't without the clone bodies. The clone bodies were younger, stronger, etc. Youth matters even for force users. With age comes experience and technique but when you're old you're past your prime. His "Old" body was decaying. He was spending most of his power to keep it functioning. In the clone bodies he didn't bother which is why each body began to rapidly deteriorate despite being younger/stronger.

 

You might ask "Why not use the bodies sooner?" He never used essence transfer before hand. Part of him probably thought "What if it doesn't work?" Why risk it if you don't have to?

 

As for "His direct power comes from the top tier canon." it was stated numerous times that in the movies he was toying with his opponents. The one moment he showed fear was against Yoda when he tried to flee. When he fought Yoda he started acting like a child playing a game.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Rhyltran

[dcaleb]

Where was it stated that he was toying with them?

[Rhyltran]

Where was it stated that he was toying with them?

 

The novelization of the movies. Various novels after the movies.

[dcaleb]

The novelization of the movies. Various novels after the movies.

 

Huh, funnily enough I've actually just recently gotten the Dark Lord trilogy on kindle. I guess I will see it soon enough once I get through Labyrinth of Evil.

[Rhyltran]

Huh, funnily enough I've actually just recently gotten the Dark Lord trilogy on kindle. I guess I will see it soon enough once I get through Labyrinth of Evil.

 

I'll post some quotes tomorrow too. I have them on pdf but I'm heading off to bed. I did post a quote in the "Nox vs Wrath" thread from Rise of Lord Vader where Sidious tells Vader that "The sith have grown past the use of a lightsaber." and tells Vader that the Sith only use lightsabers to humiliate the Jedi. Essentially kind of alluding to him toying with Windu.

[Kaedusz]

snip

 

Either nothing exist outside of the movies+ their related stuff and all of these discussions are pointless,or if you want to compare characters from the movies to ''Legends'' characters then you must use episodes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9(+all the other materials like Clone Wars that are not Legends) not the post EP 6 EU.Because you can't draw arguments from 2 separate events that happen at the same time,one of which turns out to not be the true one.

 

For the sake of argument ,suppose Sidious survives in some form in the new movies.Are you going to use feats from the new movies and feats from the post ep 6 EU to draw conclusions about his powers,personality,world view and whatever else when compared to for example Darth Ruin?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Kaedusz]

del,double post Edited December 22, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

For the sake of argument ,suppose Sidious survives in some form in the new movies.Are you going to use feats from the new movies and feats from the post ep 6 EU to draw conclusions about his powers,personality,world view and whatever else when compared to for example Darth Ruin?

 

That makes no sense. It's the other way around. You either compare characters/things from Disney Canon or you compare Legends with Legends. To answer your question no. I wouldn't compare movie feats with EU feats. Instead, if I compare Exar Kun to Sidious I'd be comparing Exar Kun to Legends Sidious. Movie Sidious would be compared to the new EU canon/t.v. series/etc. In short, movie Sidious would be compared to Disney Canon Star Wars.

[Kaedusz]

Because he couldn't without the clone bodies. The clone bodies were younger, stronger, etc. Youth matters even for force users. With age comes experience and technique but when you're old you're past your prime. His "Old" body was decaying. He was spending most of his power to keep it functioning. In the clone bodies he didn't bother which is why each body began to rapidly deteriorate despite being younger/stronger.

quotes regarding spending power to keep it functionaing,which he ''didn't bother to do'' with his clone bodies plz(aside from the non sleep) As far as i know only his original could handle his power due it being his original one.The clones couldn't due to them being clones,so they aged and deteriorated at an alarming rate.

Also the ''younger stronger clone bodies'' and this ''old hence weak'' things you said are made up

 

toying

this is both true and immaterial.The cases in which he was ''toying'' doesn't stop you from figuring out how powerful he is.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Kaedusz]

That makes no sense. It's the other way around. You either compare characters/things from Disney Canon or you compare Legends with Legends. To answer your question no. I wouldn't compare movie feats with EU feats. Instead, if I compare Exar Kun to Sidious I'd be comparing Exar Kun to Legends Sidious. Movie Sidious would be compared to the new EU canon/t.v. series/etc. In short, movie Sidious would be compared to Disney Canon Star Wars.

I hope you realize for your own sake how ridiculous this is.

So you basically just said that you are forbidden to compare movie characters to Legends.

Ahsoka Tano to Exar Kun for example is forbidden because she doesn't exist in Legends. Let's say she appears in the new movies.You are forbidden to compare them ,unless there is a completely new story made up for her that is duped Legends,after which you discard everything that happened to her in the official canon,because it is not part from Legends?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Rhyltran]

I hope you realize for your own sake how ridiculous this is.

So you basically just said that you are forbidden to compare movie characters to Legends.

Ahsoka Tano to Exar Kun for example is forbidden because she doesn't exist in Legends. Let's say she appears in the new movies.You are forbidden to compare them ,unless there is a completely new story made up for her that is duped Legends,after which you discard everything that happened to her in the official canon,because it is not part from Legends?

 

Incorrect. The clone wars t.v. series and the current movies were created back when the rules of Canon included them. The levels of Canon are no longer applicable. Disney has changed everything up. Again, if you want to go by the rules of the new Canon you cannot compare Exar Kun to Palpatine because Exar Kun doesn't exist in Disney's Canon.

 

Ergo they are both Legends and Canon. The two types separate when we get to the new Disney Material.

 

You are still arguing "My non-canon is more valid than your non-canon." at which point I ask again. Do you see what your non-canon has with my non-canon? It starts with the word "non."

 

You also keep telling me my opinion is ridiculous yet you're the only person here that finds it so. No one agrees with you. Are you the only person on these entire forums, any star wars forums, that "Gets it."?

Edited December 22, 2014 by Rhyltran