Watchman / Anni improvement

[Rawbee]

I would honestly think that adding an instant ability to CD a med pac would help a bunch.

 

I was thinking about it and the main reason we all think this is nerf'd, mainly stems from our squishy class fundamentals. We are medium armor (squish), We have to not interrupt aggro in groups, we have to keep dmg at a minimum as to not draw aggro, and we have DoTs that really if you think about it are 18 seconds long. Do the math, it is a class destined to be mediocre at best.

 

If we add the use of a med pac, one that will give us the highest percentage of health back and then the ability to use two or three med pacs per fight then we will have more to monitor and an escape plan to keep us alive for the duration of or DoTs. Countless times during battles, even with Doc helping, I would give my left light saber for a good med pac heal. Since Sents are so squishy, have to cash in a 30 stack, I would so rather have a med pac instead of a Zen. We also have VC that will stack an instant 30 as well. Using 3 med pacs will make the Medical Droids rich, Sents/Maras happy and we now provide some function in a group.

 

I have not done any operations so far, so I may be off from the purpose, but I would like to see the Devs give us something to mitigate the damage taken by the class.

[Ailaria]

I fully agree, I'm still playing Watchman but I'm not finding the new spec in any way enjoyable, which is quite a step down from being my favorite spec in the game. I did not stay on my Sentinel just to become a Balance Shadow who's broken his saberstaff in two.

[ShadowTech]

As a big fan of watchman for PvE since launch, I greatly dislike the new changes. The spec just doesn't feel the same anymore. Abilities feel forced, the spec doesn't flow the way it used to. It used to be that you ran things more on a priority system, rather than a set rotation. Made the spec fun and dynamic. The new spec is apparently a set in stone rotation that I at least apparently can't seem to get to click. I want something more like my pre-3.0 watchman back.

[DhanRahl]

I think what really upsets me the most is that the Combat Team thought this was an acceptable evolution of the spec. Every other discipline evovled rather nicely with exception to sorc healer to an extent...and then you have what happened to Annihilation/Watchman.

 

It really makes me believe that the devs who create these classes just simply don't play this game at all, or even the classes to have a basic understanding of how it works. Nearly two months of testing this discipline and not one of them thought "Maybe this is not how we should do this, none of our players seem to approve". And honestly "We don't have time to look at it again, so we're just going to leave it as a ruined discipline" is not an acceptable course of action. It would have been a lot easier to keep this as it was with an added skill into the rotation blocks and build from there.

[infedele]

my personal feedback about anni pvp,

crippling should be removed and the effect should be inserted into rupture

force rend should be removed and a the dot should be inserted into annihilate

Cloack of pain should be buffed and passively heal the player on damage to raise the ugly survivability

undying rage should be reverted to 1.0 passively

rupture damage should be slightly raised

unstoppable up after the charge 3 or 4 sec

annihilate mechanics should be removed CD6sec fixed

 

the biggest problem we must stay melee, now that there's cast on movement reach the target is a big problem

specialy if they go faster than us, mutch over we have a very low survivability, our rotation require too mutch time to be taked up.

Edited December 16, 2014 by infedele

[DarkDecimator]

Also support this petition. Anni went from being my favorite spec, to my I won't even play that sec with 3.0.

[MorgenBlue]

I play a healer usually but I loved playing my Annihilation marauder before 3.0. Now I hate it.

I loved the relatively short dots and the proc on Rupture. The spec now like stated in the op has a too long rotation that makes it feel slow. The damage is alright but its boring.

 

The new dot feels out of place. Revert to pre 3.0 and just change Force Rend completely to be a replacement to Vicious Slash and id be happy.

 

Annihilation was a DoT spec that didn't really feel like a DoT spec and thats why I think many people loved it.

Edited December 18, 2014 by MorgenBlue

[AngusFTW]

What i would quite like them to do is, do away with the second dot but buff the dmg of cauterise/rupture to make up for the loss of rend but have it on a cd system similar to before and for a new ability give us a new dot spread smash/sweep like what vengeance has that does higher dmg and is free to use which spreads the cauterise dot. or even leave a second aoe dot..

 

IDK just throwing it out there.. i mean you could accuse this is being too similar to vengeance but with stronger dots but considering watchman atm is basically a gimped version of serenity/hatred...

 

Looking at it from a pure numbers prospective, watchman falls behind hatred/serenity in warzone dot spec wise mostly because our aoe to spread the dots hits for what... 3k? while deathfield/fib hits for like 6-7k. This is why hatred/serenity will always outperform watchman/anni numbers wise in a pvp wz environment even though the specs are pretty similar. (even if we don't take cds into account)

 

Vengeance/vigilance is hitting pretty high numbers because of the new smash it has as well 7-8k crits on that and it spread dots also...

 

TLDR give us a better aoe dot spread ability because thats the main weak point (excluding the obvious survivability and control issues people hvae touched upon) compared to other dot specs in pvp atm.

Edited December 18, 2014 by AngusFTW

[Ardarell_Solo]

I've been thinking about why Watchman was changed this way. Here's my strange theory:

 

Before 2.0. each Sentinel spec had its distinct identity:

 

 

• Combat: Burst
  
• Smash: AoE
  
• Watchman: Sustained/Hybrid*
  

 

(simplifying a bit here of course)

 

*Watchman had never really been a Dot spec, though it had good sustained damage. It just had its direct damage enhanced by short (6 secs at max!!!) dots. Thus it was still rather good at target switching and had some nice burst, especially when Zen, Adrenal and relic were utilized (not to forget the really hard hitting Master Strike you could save for that).

 

Then Devs announced a general design change: No more specific AoE spec in advanced classes, but good AoE for every spec of the ACs.

 

-> Smash had always been the "pure AoE" spec of the AC. Its redesign conseqeuently started past 2.0 and was finalized with 3.0: "Ex-Smash" is now Concentration and first and foremost a burst specc (excellent single target burst and good AoE burst).

 

But the three specs still needed their own identity, so how give each of them their specific traits?

 

 

So that's what I think happened in 3.0:

 

 

• Concentration: Burst
  
• Watchman: True sustained = real Dot spec
  
• Combat: Hybrid (some Burst & ok sustained - I think Combat's sustained DPS was meant to be higher than it is atm)
  

 

So with Smash moving from AoE to burst and Watchman getting more AoE like all spec in all classes, Watchman lost its burst and target switching capability: It was pushed much farther to the dot end of the spectrum, in order to have a clear distinction from Concentration. For the same reason Combat couldn't stay as bursty. But since Combat had no other specific trait, it thus became the new hybrid.

 

Results when playing Sent atm are as you'd expect:

 

 

• Concentration got a huge QoL improvement, it plays much better in PvE and PvP and is the specc that profited most from what I described.
   
   
  
• Watchman ended up being a pure Dot spec very similar to Balance Shadow, Balance Sage, Dirty Fighting Slinger: Two long Dots (18sec and 12secs - one of the big problems is the difference in their length that you don't see on any of the other Dot specs mentioned and resulting in Watchmen becoming the "Boss' Debuff bar babysitting" class), very good sustained DPS, hardly any burst, bad target switching. That causes the exact problem I listed in the OP for people who are not used to playing Dot speccs.
   
   
  
• Combat is a jack of all trades and master of none. Which is a huge letdown for players who took pride in being one of the burstiest classes in the game with a high level of mastery required to pull that off.
  

 

Primarily speaking for Watchmen players here, you could say: Spec got altered completely for a general redesign of spec philosophy.

 

Though I can see the idea behind the AoE topic, I doubt that the gain from it (AoE for everyone) justifys the loss: The majority of Sentinel players alienated by the complete altering of "their" spec.

 

Of course change is always difficult and always accompanied by QQ and whining, especially in MMOs ;-) But if changes are good, you will see people adapting after a while and you normally get some new players attracted to the changes.

 

Atm I doubt that we will see veteran Sentinel players love the new spec design and that we will see a lot of new Sent players who always wanted a melee dot class (cause those are probably playing Balance Shadows already).

 

I have to say I really liked the original identities of the specs and don't think that the new design of Concentration necessarily meant you can't keep Combat and Watchman philosophy the way it was around 2.x.

 

 

But if you do redesign the three specs, how could it be done with Watchman staying Sustained/Hybrid with short dots and all classes have good Aoe?

 

Redesign might work like this:

 

 

• Concentration: medium burst on midrange (look at all the 10m attacks in the rotation already, you could enhance it further by buffing Double Saber Throw in the spec)
   
   
  
• Combat: Strongest burst, but only in melee range. Could be with Clashing Blast only available from 4m (have to use Blade Strom in its place if you're not in melee range). At the same time buff the spec's burst considerably (i.e. extremely hard hitting Clashing Blast), so it's as strong as it's always been.
   
   
  
• Watchman: Sustained/Hybrid with short dots: What people always loved about this class...
  

 

 

What do you all think?

[DhanRahl]

I think you need more colours, and possibly more italics.

 

But I do think the AC needs to return to what it once was. As it is now, Carnage and Fury feel...wrong. Very wrong. I'll admit I was a garbage Carnage player, and Rage (Fury) was the herpaderpa spec to play when you need that fluffy AoE damage. Now though I feel like I'm just...a filler dps much in the same way a companion is. Sure there are uses here and that for the "specialization" those two specs offer...and even then it's not much. Annihilation on the other hand is just...well...just....that. It's something else. It brings no real gain to the raid other than being a bloodthirst mule while you wait to hit your buttons in the correct order at the prescribed time in a certain way under the full moon of the 7th day of the 2nd week of the 7th month of the 23rd year for the glory of the Sontaran Empire.

 

It's almost as if Bioware is heavily breathing into our ears with all the grace of a constipated hippo that we should be playing something else that's actually fun. There are times where I'm very proud of myself during a raid, but then I always remember all I did was properly executed my scripted discipline and I get really sad that the only control over my toon during that fight was to make it worse, not better.

 

What the discipline needs to do it stay true to it's name.

Annihilation:

noun

an act or instance of annihilating, or of completely destroying or defeating someone or something.

Watchman:

noun, plural watchmen.

1. a person who keeps guard over a building at night, to protect it from fire, vandals, or thieves. 2. a person who wishes they were as cool as Annihilation.

 

 

When was the last time you called watching something bleed over the duration of 36 seconds an annihilation. That's right you can't, because that's not annihilating something that's torturing it. We should be calling ourselves Sith Martyrs and...Jedi Firebenders.

 

It goes just being numbers and formulas. This is an RPG in it's core with an MMO shell. Playing an AC should allow you to fall into the roll and mindset of that AC with it's playstyle. You like how a class/AC plays because you enjoy it. Now if you just have hardons for numbers then I've got nothing for you except some PvP jokes. Over the last year or so this and all over ACs have established themselves rather well and should not have been tampered with in the way they were. There is a fine line between reinventing something to improve it's core, and reinventing something to redesign it's core. This discipline is meant to be devastating and quick, much like Sean Connery with your mother last night.

 

Suck it Trebek.

Edited December 19, 2014 by DhanRahl

[Xenphon]

Very well articulated, Ardarell. I think you've discussed what's changed (and, in my opinion, become wrong) with marauder/sentinel in 3.0. I honestly do not understand the reasoning behind changing the class like they did.

 

From what I have tried of the new operations so far, melee is yet again not very favoured. Bulo, Torque and Master and Blaster are three fights that spring to mind as favoring range over melee. As such, having annihilation changed as it was has been a big blow. Sure, your dots will probably run its course, but the loss of uptime and annihilates are detrimental to the class. Combine that with the constant looking at the buff-bar and you have a recipe for a boring and mechanical spec, regardless of whether you output decent damage or not. I can't stand it and run carnage. I honestly feel like hitting something the times I run as annihilation in operations these days. It just seems so odd to have such a long rotation for a melee class. We get the short end of the stick more so than ranged and our rotation suffers greatly because of that. The current annihilation does not fit into those fights, in my opinion.

 

As for carnage, I never enjoyed the changes implemented from 2.8 onward, but until 3.0 I could accept them. 3.0 not only made the rotation easier and less fun, but the gore change is so affected by the current fps and lag issues that it gets quite annoying at times. I also very much agree with the statement that carnage is currently a "jack of all trades but master of none". It also suffers from having become a mechanical rotational class like annihilation. The playstyle around the slaughter proc is gone and I rarely see DB proc not up. It's pretty straight forward what you have to do, but at least you do not have the insanely long rotation and buff-bar looking annihilation so graciously has been given (*sarcasm*). Our burst is good, don't get me wrong, but the nerf to ravage also nerfed the maximum burst we could output. The sustained damage is also significantly lower than annihilation, which strikes me as odd given BW's stated numbers on the agent stream (the numbers were obviously completely random, as they are already being smashed to bits). Carnage used to be challenging, fun, and rewarding to those that played the spec well. I counted myself among those. All of that is pretty much gone. The spec has been simplified far too much, with the least abilties used among the three specs.

 

As for Fury, it has got nice burst, but whereas the smash previously did good AOE damage, it has now been nerfed. That means that where Rage could do decent AOE damage in fights in 2.x I would not really advocate Fury as an AOE spec in 3.0. Other classes do a far better job of it and you're, in most cases, better of using your single target burst. Most new fights are pretty much single target regardless, with Sparky, first and fourth bosses in ToS as the exceptions. I wouldn't take a marauder to take care of adds there, though.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Xenphon

[cultofcargo]

In 3.0 Bioware VIOLATED watchman, rest in peace.

clearly no one at Bioware played watchman and understood what made it special.

[CycloH]

[*]Watchman: Sustained/Hybrid with short dots: What people always loved about this class...

 

Ardarell, that was a great summary of the history of the Sentinel... and you hit the nail on the head as to why many of us loved the sent so much... that quote above, if even they reverted that back and give it it's original properties it would go along way. Of course with all the other survivability utilities that other classes have that we don't etc, it would still need a lot more then just reverting one skill. I hear a lot talk about how this affects PVP, but I am mainly talking about PVE so it's definitely both sides of the house here.

 

There just seems to have been this move to equalize the theory of the classes (dot, burst, aoe, etc), but this one just went waaaay wrong. It's so weird too because the last set of changes we got in (I THINK) it was 2.8 or 9? I was so excited, I was even on the PTS really looking forward to the evolution of that great progress they had made with the Sentinel in 3.0. But these changes are a massive leap backwards... it just feels like someone with a completely different philosophy took over the combat system and just destroyed the fun factor of this class... it makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it... but that's off topic obviously.

[millertimer]

And don't forget not being able to get your 25% damage on off-hand why is that not a passive or at least in the tree to spec into.

[heizluefta]

Why do we have a second weapon btw ? Why not play "single-saber" ?

BW said "every class should be worth playing". And they stated that the mara changes are not meeting the DPS requirements...! So...aha ?

So what now ?

Do we get a buff soon ?

Or is it like always: nothing happens and instead buff sth else...like now with sorcs....

 

Balancing...tss...

[DhanRahl]

Farewell fellow Annihilators! Seems my sub is to run out just before Christmas, and I don't see myself resubbing for quite awhile which means no more forum discussions

 

I really hope we get some type of dev response soon as the discussion keeps growing so we can hear their thought process on this so we know how to better help improve the spec. Until then, keep calm and marauder on.

[Pantokratorx]

We will stand watch brother till we see you again! Hopefully that day comes soon! Best of luck and never forget to watch the watchmen!

[Excypher]

My observations....

 

The new skill feels extremely forced into the rotation and coincidently it does not even apply deadly saber stacks.

My AoE rotation also goes to hell when smash kills the dotted target, the dots do not spread.

 

Some suggestions...

 

I think that the new dot should be removed. Perhaps a new proc tied to Annihilate that allows the use of Vicious throw above 30% hp. With a replacement skill for Vicious throw in place of Rend.

Ruptures dot needs to be brought down to either 6 or 9 seconds with Pulverize back in place, It helps to keep the pace up of this spec and stops the monotony of dot, wait, repeat.

If AoE is still an issue, Deadly saber should spread and also smashing a target to death should still spread the dots.

[RRZZRR]

I'm playing Anni for almost 3 years and still enjoying it in 3.0. I think you're exaggerating about the changes, it's still the same base mechanics - annihilate on cd -> fillers / re-applying dots in-between. Keeping track of boss's debuffs is actually very easy with the new interface improvements when you get used to it (and somehow i still always see what's going on around me ). And i like no-cd rapture, helps with switching targets/multidotting when you can't do it with smash. Though i agree that rotation feels a bit too long. Edited December 21, 2014 by RRZZRR

[Ardarell_Solo]

I'm playing Anni for almost 3 years and still enjoying it in 3.0. I think you're exaggerating about the changes, it's still the same base mechanics - annihilate on cd -> fillers / re-applying dots in-between. Keeping track of boss's debuffs is actually very easy with the new interface improvements when you get used to it (and somehow i still always see what's going on around me ). And i like no-cd rapture, helps with switching targets/multidotting when you can't do it with smash. Though i agree that rotation feels a bit too long.

 

To me Pulverize was the base mechanic (resetting Cauterize).

 

As for Dot tracking: Have you been playing Anni on hardmode bosses, especially Bulo, Walkers, Torque where stepping out of stupid just a second late (cause you took but a glance at the boss' debuff bar) can mean insta death?

[RRZZRR]

As for Dot tracking: Have you been playing Anni on hardmode bosses, especially Bulo, Walkers, Torque where stepping out of stupid just a second late (cause you took but a glance at the boss' debuff bar) can mean insta death?

Bulo and Walkers yes, no problem. Torque... well, i died in fire there but not because of debuff bar.

[Bu-jin]

Sentinel is broken. No survivability

[Ardarell_Solo]

Bulo and Walkers yes, no problem.

 

Good for you! ;-)

[CycloH]

I'm playing Anni for almost 3 years and still enjoying it in 3.0. I think you're exaggerating about the changes, it's still the same base mechanics - annihilate on cd -> fillers / re-applying dots in-between. Keeping track of boss's debuffs is actually very easy with the new interface improvements when you get used to it (and somehow i still always see what's going on around me ). And i like no-cd rapture, helps with switching targets/multidotting when you can't do it with smash. Though i agree that rotation feels a bit too long.

 

Try adding 1 variable to a calculus formula... and then say you feel the outcome is an exaggeration! lol The fact that you avoided some bad in Torque once or twice just means you were lucky not to have to look at the bar at the time, but it's not within your control... and you will die to it eventually (you already got a taste of it with Bulo and Walkers). But Ard is absolutely right... wait till you start getting into HM and later on NM mechanics, you WILL notice it then. Now, this is all my opinion, so I don't expect you to agree... but 99% of the folks on this thread, and on the Petition thread consider it a major problem, myself included.

 

And also... traditionally Sentinels job (at least in PVE from where I am coming from) is boss duty. So if you're trying to dot up multiple targets, or adds... you're not really doing your job (completely). If the tanks bring adds into the mob, then hit your force sweep, but if you miss... then keep doing your main job (and let the ranged clean the rest up, that's what they're there for). For what Sentinels have always traditionally been brought to raids for is diminished significantly by these changes, and lean them in the direction of a liability more then anything... and for those of us who are in progression oriented guilds, this is not an exaggeration in the least. It sucks, but the 3.0 changes went in the wrong direction from a Raid perspective (and I'll let the PVPers make their own case, which they have had plenty to say as well).

Edited December 22, 2014 by CycloH
Spelling

[Kadra]

I agree with the topic starter. The playstyle feels more like I'm a sorcerer than a marauder now. With a

12 and 18 sec DoTs it just totally sucks, I'm hitting with a freaking lightsabre, 6secs was really fine and

there was no need to change that. They could have just replaced vicious slash with a new ability, for example,

or just added some features to the existing abilities or procs (they managed to change carnage without messing everthing up, although they made it even simpler than it was, but at least the feel is still the same). But they literally smeared the damage all over the rotation, it feels dull to play like this. The Force Rend and Rupture DoTs are often useless on common adds, because it takes too long to apply them, so it doesn't pay to use those two skills, because the raid will burn the the add down to 50% by the time you have applied your "mighty" DoTs. That is two spec-exclusive abilities that fall out of the picture a lot of the time (I'm not talking about the new ops adds, those still have tons of hp, but are we forced to play those two ops only?). I am very disappointed with the current Annihilation spec, it is totally ruined.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Kadra