Watchman / Anni improvement

[Ardarell_Solo]

A lot of Watchmen / Anni players are unhappy with the way the spec plays after 3.0. Main points of criticism:

 

 

• Boring rotation: No quick decision making required (fights can be scripted).
   
   
  
• Rotation is too long: Basic rotation of 36 secs doesn't make sense for a melee DPS class.
   
   
  
• More looking at dot debuff bar than looking at what's actually happening around you.
   
   
  
• No interaction between abilities, no synergy.
   
   
  
• New skill is underwhelming mechanically (aka "Watchman Vital Shot" / "Anni Corrosive Dart")
  

 

 

While the specc is totally fine concerning DPS output, it just not fun to play. At all.

 

 

The old Pulverize proc the specc used to have for Cauterize had the player involved in the rotation. Though this required some attention ("ironing out failed procs") it was actually less distracting from a fight than tracking your long dots is now.

 

 

The main problem seemed that the new ability being a long dot, the rotation had to become less tight to make room for that Dot.

 

 

I think it might work better to just weave in an instant ability into the pre 3.0.-rotation that replaces some of the Slashes we used to have. E.g. an instant force burn attack that could also get buffed when used on a target with Overload Saber on it. It could also count for the old Pulverize proc on Cauterize the same way Slash did, so there's no need for more filler GCDs in the rotation. You could actually simply use the name and animation of "Force Melt/Rend" for that.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

EDIT: If that aspect is an issue, here's a suggestion to resolve the RNG problem of the old Pulverize without having to rework too many things, just giving "Accelerating Victory" stacks this new function:

 

 

• Whenever Merciless Slash/Annihilate, Slash/Vicious Slash, Dispatch/Vicious Throw (and possibly Force Melt/Force Rend) fail to proc Pulverize, the chance is increased by 10% for the next relevant ability.
   
   
  
• Three stacks at max.
   
   
  
• Every succesfull proc of Pulverize consumes all current stacks.
  

Edited December 8, 2014 by Ardarell_Solo

[DarkNecroCrusher]

100% Agreed

[Xenphon]

I agree, as well. I disliked the changes they did to carnage back in 2.8 to make it more accessible and easier. I wanted pulverize to stay in the game when they tried to make rupture a flat cooldown. I very much would like a return to the old annihilation, as the curren iteration of the spec is flat out mechanical and boring. As stated, the rotation is ridiculously long and there is challenge to it whatsoever. Just wait for the correct time to apply the dots and rinse repeat. Sure, there will be variations in raids, but having already been in some of the fights I can't say the spec makes for a fun playstyle (add the obviously favoured ranged fights on top of that and you get a marvelous combination *sarcasm*).

 

Unfortunately I have problems seeing BW doing anything any time soon. Their track record is not one that goes in that favour and the fact that they have seemed dead set on this for 3.0 does not give me hope. Our only option is to continue to voice our opinions and hope they will notice and respond to us. The feedback so far has not been particularly good for the marauder/sentinel devs, with people complaining about both annihilation and carnage. There's also been progression raiders changing class because of the changes. Not exactly optimal not even a week into th expansion.

 

So please, devs, respond to us. Explain your reasoning(s) and answer our questions.

[KarathAnno]

A lot of Watchmen / Anni players are unhappy with the way the spec plays after 3.0. Main points of criticism:

 

 

• Boring rotation: No quick decision making required (fights can be scripted).
   
   
  
• Rotation is too long: Basic rotation of 36 secs doesn't make sense for a melee DPS class.
   
   
  
• More looking at dot debuff bar than looking at what's actually happening around you.
   
   
  
• No interaction between abilities, no synergy.
   
   
  
• New skill is underwhelming mechanically (aka "Watchman Vital Shot" / "Anni Corrosive Dart")
  

 

 

While the specc is totally fine concerning DPS output, it just not fun to play. At all.

 

100% agree with all these points. It does fine damage but I cannot bring myself to play it anymore, the fun is gone.

[gunte]

Agreed, new watchman is a snooze fest and doesn't feel intuitive at all. Actually it doesn't feel *anything* at all. Just bland, generic and boring.

[KaiserTNT]

 

[*]More looking at dot debuff bar than looking at what's actually happening around you.

 

.

 

Totally agree with this point. I cleared ToS last night on Anni and I can't even remember what the bosses looked like because I was watching my debuffs the whole time. With Old Annihilation watching your debuffs was totally unnecessary, as not clipping the 6s Rupture was all you had to worry about....so I could actually pay attention to not standing in bad (which is extra important for a melee class), or enjoying the scenery. WTB old spec back please.

Edited December 8, 2014 by KaiserTNT

[WheresMyWhisky]

I totally agree very boring to play now, no synergy in the rotation any longer, it kind of sucks tbh.

 

I have also got some very toasty feet of late (ok this week) in ops far too much time spent watching my buffs since the long dot very quickly falls out of alignment with everything else on some fights.

[USCG_Davis]

I agree. My mara has been my favorite toon since 1.0. Loved her through every patch. But now, i fall asleep playing her. Every spec is boring as hell and really, i watch the bosses debuff bar more than the fight...

[Projawa]

3.0 anni/wm is more boring than it was before which is saying something. Carnage/combat is braindead easy compared to 2.8 not to mention 2.0 but still strangely enjoyable. Edited December 8, 2014 by Projawa

[threepers]

Agreed, I hate the new watchman. Edited December 9, 2014 by threepers

[AngusFTW]

I find it alright in wz as a derp dot spec i've been playing it now instead of combat after they neutered its burst and gave some decent utilitys to all specs(but lets face they're rubbish compared to the other classes) but tbh they've turned it into a crappy version of hatred/serenity sin/shadow...flow is gone indeed.. i'd hate it in pve on a single target..it doesnt feel like the same spec i ran with for years in pve... i still play sent cause im stubborn they've changed far too much i kinda liked where it was in 2.10.

 

I mean i could play the new focus but i have a jug/guardian as well why play that on a sentinel when its dcds are just not as good?

Edited December 9, 2014 by AngusFTW

[Vodrin]

3.0 anni/wm is more boring than it was before which is saying something. Carnage/combat is braindead easy compared to 2.8 not to mention 2.0 but still strangely enjoyable.

 

That's the funny thing. Carnage is so simple now and remains fun. Watchman is also more simple, but much less fun with all the DoT duration babysitting.

 

I find it alright in wz as a derp dot spec i've been playing it now instead of combat after they neutered its burst and gave some decent utilitys to all specs(but lets face they're rubbish compared to the other classes) but tbh they've turned it into a crappy version of hatred/serenity sin/shadow...flow is gone indeed.. i'd hate it in pve on a single target..it doesnt feel like the same spec i ran with for years in pve... i still play sent cause im stubborn they've changed far too much i kinda liked where it was in 2.10.

 

I mean i could play the new focus but i have a jug/guardian as well why play that on a sentinel when its dcds are just not as good?

 

You may want to give combat a try again. If you recognize that the damage on master strike was reduced along with it's cooldown and change you ability priorities accordingly the damage and burst is about the same as in 2.0 (relative to the increased health pools anyways as the damage is actually up). Burst is actually easier to apply as well due to PS, clashing blast, and dispatch all being usable at 10m.

 

This leaves the priority such that master strike should only be used in a precision slash window if dispatch is not available. Your best burst is actually clashing bast>dispatch>blade rush with zen active. Master strike is now used immediately before that sequence to bait any CC's they have and trigger the auto crit on dispatch if you have the full six set bonus. When hand of justice is on cooldown your zen boosted burst cycle is clashing blast>master strike. Clashing blast should always be your priority under PS because it is such a heavy hitter. It now hits for over 11K on geared targets when you are not taunted.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Vodrin

[g_mK]

A lot of Watchmen / Anni players are unhappy with the way the spec plays after 3.0. Main points of criticism:

 

 

• Boring rotation: No quick decision making required (fights can be scripted).
   
   
  
• Rotation is too long: Basic rotation of 36 secs doesn't make sense for a melee DPS class.
   
   
  
• More looking at dot debuff bar than looking at what's actually happening around you.
   
   
  
• No interaction between abilities, no synergy.
   
   
  
• New skill is underwhelming mechanically (aka "Watchman Vital Shot" / "Anni Corrosive Dart")
  

 

 

While the specc is totally fine concerning DPS output, it just not fun to play. At all.

 

 

The old Pulverize proc the specc used to have for Cauterize had the player involved in the rotation. Though this required some attention ("ironing out failed procs") it was actually less distracting from a fight than tracking your long dots is now.

 

 

The main problem seemed that the new ability being a long dot, the rotation had to become less tight to make room for that Dot.

 

 

I think it might work better to just weave in an instant ability into the pre 3.0.-rotation that replaces some of the Slashes we used to have. E.g. an instant force burn attack that could also get buffed when used on a target with Overload Saber on it. It could also count for the old Pulverize proc on Cauterize the same way Slash did, so there's no need for more filler GCDs in the rotation. You could actually simply use the name and animation of "Force Melt/Rend" for that.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

EDIT: If that aspect is an issue, here's a suggestion to resolve the RNG problem of the old Pulverize without having to rework too many things, just giving "Accelerating Victory" stacks this new function:

 

 

• Whenever Merciless Slash/Annihilate, Slash/Vicious Slash, Dispatch/Vicious Throw (and possibly Force Melt/Force Rend) fail to proc Pulverize, the chance is increased by 10% for the next relevant ability.
   
   
  
• Three stacks at max.
   
   
  
• Every succesfull proc of Pulverize consumes all current stacks.
  

 

a million times THIS ^

I decided to try parsing in watchman and I cannot agree more.

In general the spec feels complicated (not difficult, just complicated) with having to spend more time tracking dots than anything else. Focus management I feel it's fine though.

Fury for example has a very simple rotation but is actually fun.

Combat is not as nice as it used to be but not as bad as watchman. My prefered iteration of combat remains that of 2.10.

[Atlanis]

Hmm, seems interesting but I think it is to early to make valid assumptions concerning DPS and Rotation. Lets see how it plays out when most Raids start hitting Hardmode:D

[bfgnnng]

I played all time watchman on my 2 sentinels but now it doesn't make fun to play it.

I think no skill tree had been changed that strong like watchman. Most skill trees had just got a new name and an attack replacing an other attack, but no big changes. But watchman is now 95% different and it isn't easy to handle with the two dots because they are not the same time dealing damage to the enemy. And if there are too much other players in the group you won't now exactly when you have to refresh the dots. I loved the 2.0+ watchman and would like to see it if you would make 3.0 watchman more similar to play like before 3.0.

 

I'm sorry if there are some grammar mistakes.

Edited December 9, 2014 by bfgnnng

[SeanFM]

I find it alright in wz as a derp dot spec i've been playing it now instead of combat after they neutered its burst and gave some decent utilitys to all specs(but lets face they're rubbish compared to the other classes) but tbh they've turned it into a crappy version of hatred/serenity sin/shadow...flow is gone indeed.. i'd hate it in pve on a single target..it doesnt feel like the same spec i ran with for years in pve... i still play sent cause im stubborn they've changed far too much i kinda liked where it was in 2.10.

 

I mean i could play the new focus but i have a jug/guardian as well why play that on a sentinel when its dcds are just not as good?

I agree. I've been playing Watchman a lot in wzs and when both teams have a healer it's pretty fun and can pull some decent numbers (not as much as madness but imo madness dmg is OP atm so that's fine). Ignoring the lacking survivability, the damage is more interesting with an extra dot and the dot spread. I do really miss the flow of old Watchman. It always had a great fluency to it which has been lost so I can see where the PvE people are coming from.

 

Basically I like having an extra dot and being able to spread the dots, but it would be nice to get some of the fluency that Watchman used to have back.

[Ramtar]

Sentinel/Marauder need improvement.!

 

* Remove GC from the game. Only ability's CD or lack of Focus are the only things that should stop a player from using an ability. I shouldn't have to wait an additional 1.5 seconds to use an ability that's off CD and I have the Focus.

 

* Reworking Utilities to include more abilities that will benefit Sentinel/Marauder class as a whole, like: Zealous Leap, Overload Saber without the requirement for Juyo, Anti-Knockback, Dual Wield Mastery or Precision Slash

 

* GBTF/UR and Saber Ward should be passive abilities. GBTF/UR should be our stun protection and Saber Ward should be our range protection.

 

* Abilities CDs are still too long compared to other ACs in PvP.

 

* IMO Force Leap/Charge should don't damage, but allow Sentinel/Marauder to move around the battle field: location not target. It should be free placing just like Trooper's Mortar Volley or Sorcerer's Death Field.

 

* 10m range abilities should have max range increased by 15-20m. This would allow Sentinel/Marauder a way to keep building Focus against targets that want to remain outside 4-10m range.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Ramtar

[DhanRahl]

In all honesty I prefer the 6 second Rupture. For Rend you at least know when it's time to reapply from either the 3 stack proc or around then if you mess up. At least it would keep you on your toes, but again rage generation would be an issue. Remove the ICD of 4seconds back down to 0 and there shouldn't be any issue at all.

 

I'd write more but hands are just about frozen.

[Ardarell_Solo]

In all honesty I prefer the 6 second Rupture. For Rend you at least know when it's time to reapply from either the 3 stack proc or around then if you mess up. At least it would keep you on your toes, but again rage generation would be an issue. Remove the ICD of 4seconds back down to 0 and there shouldn't be any issue at all.

 

I'd write more but hands are just about frozen.

 

Hey Dhan, good to see you here! :-) That's also very much moving to the characteristic playstyle. I'd be interested to read more from you as soon as you've (Force) melted ;-)

[Sapperlot]

Hi, i agree with all of that.

By the way, there ia another issue in my opinion.: Force Camouflage

In PvE it has now 3 different funktions - aggro reduce, self cleanse, and gap closer (faster speed if force charge is on cooldown, that happens often with these jumping bosses.)

These 3 doesn´t fit together. So you can´t, for example, cleans (or purge?) youself because you had to use your aggro dump.

A second one, maybe more a quality of life thing, is that Vicious Throw should give a Stack of Force Rend. There are in my opinion enough rage issue´s with all these internal changes of rage generation.

I don´t say that it is impossible, but it disturbs a lot under 30%.

Thanks, and sorry for my bad english.

[xeikonburns]

I totally agree, while its still possible to maintain a good bunch of dps, this spec/discipline is now lacking almost all of its former "flow" and is totally boring since 3.0

 

In my opinion especially the wm spec was one of the "flowiest" and therefore entertaining specs in game before 3.0 - after 3.0 its just a matter of timing an rotation

[MediumD]

I totally agree, while its still possible to maintain a good bunch of dps, this spec/discipline is now lacking almost all of its former "flow" and is totally boring since 3.0

 

In my opinion especially the wm spec was one of the "flowiest" and therefore entertaining specs in game before 3.0 - after 3.0 its just a matter of timing an rotation

 

I like my Watchman, but her rotation is tedious in 3.0. I feel like I have to pause the rotation to apply force melt, and I have to manage a menagerie of debuffs. My infiltration shadow seems to hit just as hard or more with half the effort.

[DhanRahl]

Been out of it for a few days as I've gotten a new PC to play with that isn't garbage! And yes, nice to see you again too Ardarell. I was going to start my own thread on this until I saw yours

 

Anyways a few things I'd like to see changed, and most of them not really my idea but are worth mentioning again.

 

I believe I already mentioned the return of the 6 second Rupture DoT to 2.10 status with or without the proc from the old Pulverize. After you get the "rotation" (yeah quotation marks because it takes you way to long to get into 1 rotation) it's nothing but the waiting game until Rupture and Rend need to be reapplied and then the process starts over and over again. It is simply boring as hell. At least with the 6 second Rupture it'd force us to use Rupture every other GCD block which in my opinion means less waiting and more challenge in terms of the class with just having more to do. I'd even be fine with bringing the proc back just so I don't get bored.

 

Now the issue with bringing back the 6s Rupture DoT will be rage management which I will stress the return of bleed crit ICD. Without it rage will simply be too tight and a majority of marauders/sentinels will simply have to delay using abilities, especially their bleeds because they just can't afford it being there is zero room for error that way. Oddly enough something I've personally wanted is for our Smash to be free. It does sometimes less damage then my auto attacks for the sole purpose of spreading our two DoTs which is fine on trash pulls but when you're engaging with a boss, I'd rather not waste the rage to spread it around unless I have it to spare. It's a very nice touch to add in, I just feel that we shouldn't need to spend rage to use it.

 

Onto Vicious Throw/Dispatch: It just doesn't seem like a very useful ability anymore, as in it's turned into pure filler and lost it's "execution" feel. 2.10 it was a vital ability in your sub 30% rotation simply because it helped with Rupture procs, and did some nasty damage. However in 3.0 I just don't get that feeling from it. It's like that special cup you really like and save for special occasions and then forget you have it because you have so many other cups. Some ideas to improve would be to have it serve multiple functions, or deal more damage. Another function might be something along the lines of tying it to the DST/TST damage proc when sub 30%, increasing it's range to function similar to DST/TST as something to use while on the move (it is a throw...as in you embodied with the force throw your saber), or get really fancy and go absolutely nuts and have it refresh at least one of your DoTS (let's say Rupture) giving you an extra GCD to annihilate your target.

 

Ravage. I know this is more of a class skill than a Annihilation/Watchman skill...but please either return it's damage value to 2.10, or add the +8% from our old set bonus as a passive. Even with the +8% damage increase from my current 186 set pieces it still feels like a wet noodle used only for filler. Come on man, it's called RAVAGE for Gorband's sake. As in I'm gonna RAVAGE the **** outta this npc that his grandchildren are gonna feel it in a galaxy far far away...not I'm gonna whip my shwartz around and hope it does some damage to this npc. Just give it so damn meaning again.

 

I've currently exhausted my creativity for the time being but I'm sure I'll realize something I missed when I'm mid-boss fight and come back here and share it. But the Devs have nearly 40 pages worth of PTS discussion on how to improve this spec, and seemingly chose to ignore it and instead focused on how to make it so easy and boring a dead monkey-lizard could play it, so I honestly don't know if I hold any hope for this spec improving.

 

Compare this spec with any other in the game in terms of fun and availability: Virulence has nearly no downtime on abilities as they all have relatively short CDs, and there is always something of us up to use as long as your DoTs are ticking. Madness/Hatred is almost the same way, although I wager that Madness is almost nearing boring territory if you play it one way instead of the other...but there's always something going on regardless. Lightning? Please there is NOTHING you can't be doing on lightning and it's probably the most enjoyable spec to play at the moment just because it's non-stop lightning action. I can't say much about any of the BH classes because I simply have never seriously played one outside of my PT during dbl EXP, but even they always have something to be doing all the time and the fun never really ends until you play a Marauder/Sentinel in nearly every spec save Fury (at least there is always something to be done).

 

I would without a doubt trade my 3.0 Annihilation Marauder in for a 2.8 Annihilation Marauder without all the fancy bells and whistles just to have the same level of fun that I got from playing it.

 

This has been yet another wall of text from D'han Rahl, stay tuned for next week's absurdly long reply.

Edited December 13, 2014 by DhanRahl

[Atlanis]

How about undoing all nerfs to Sent/Maras that happened since launch? Could bring us back to speed.

 

I happily trade my Watchman 3.0 against my Watchman 1.0.

[CycloH]

In support of this thread, I have to agree on all the bullet points that Ard brings out... for me the biggest killer is that with the extra dot, and the longer duration... it really kills our ability to focus on the "situation" since we are forced to focus on our debuff bar way too much. Granted I can invoke timers to help with that, but that just seems like an advanced work around for something that should be supported naturally by the class itself.

 

The problem is we are forced to micro manage everything in order to just break even with what other DPS classes are just flowing out normally. It's such a strain in operations... another way to put it: It's just not fun and I feel like I could be a liability to my raid group since I am prone to dying because of all that is demanding my attention to keep up.