Training Costs are a Thing of the Past

[BAPACop]

Congrats! You have characters with which you can do dailies!

If he can't afford to retrain their abilities they can't be used to do dailies.

Edited December 10, 2014 by BAPACop

[Khevar]

If he can't afford to retrain their abilities they can't be used to do dailies.

That might have been true yesterday. But retraining is free today.

[Andryah]

You are forgetting something....some of us Do NOT (heck CANNOT) DO DAILIES....

 

MMO-101: part of game play is the gathering and accumulation of resources needed/desired to pursue your preferred style of game play.

 

Now, for most successful MMO players... that means developing and maintaining a personal economic model that insures one can play an MMO in the style to which one is accustomed.

 

It does not matter how you earn in game wealth. There are numerous ways to do so in this MMO. Doing dailies happens to be low hanging credits for many players. Not for me (dailies are boring for me)... so early in the life of the game... I developed other income generating methods to meet my long term needs. In fact, I took the same principles that I used in WoW for years and just dropped them in on this MMO. I've had more credits then I can spend (since February 2012) simply from following a method that leverages time while I am away from the game. And.. the credits are worthless unless I am playing the game... so someday when I get tired of SWTOR and move on.. there will be a truck ton of credits on my account (I have ~ 300K gold still over in WoW somewhere, from when I quit more then 4 years ago, and many hundreds of gold over in Rift from when I left it 3 years ago).

 

In game currency has one purpose -----> to support the lifestyle and playstyle you desire or are accustomed to. Help you help yourself... develop and maintain an income generation plan. There are many ways to do so in this MMO. Pick one that works for you and silly things like retraining costs are a gnat on a flys backside.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

Well of course you had to pay for levels after 55. That's the way the game was designed. Outside of the 12xp event, we had to pay for them for levels 2-55, so why wouldn't we expect to pay for 56-60?

 

Yes, BioWare changed that on a go-forward basis, but up to that announcement, that's how we all should have expected the game to work.

 

I know I certainly expected training costs to be reinstated once 3.0 was released. It seemed really clear that it was temporary from BioWare's communication about removing them to make the 12xp event more pleasant for us.

 

Yes I expected training costs to be reinstated. I'm even OK with them being expensive. But does annoy me is that those who leveled in the first week - and only those - had to pay the high costs for the 55-60 skills. I'm not asking for a refund of all skill training of all time. Hell, I'm not really expecting a refund of anything at all. What I am asking for is and apology to the only group of people hit with the very high costs for a single week - those who pre-ordered. Even the tiniest amount of foresight would have allowed them to announce the free skills a mere 2-3 days earlier and avoid all this angst.

 

I'm really struggling to see why you're so adamant there's nothing to be upset about. This situation has been poorly handled by BioWare.

[Andryah]

I'm really struggling to see why you're so adamant there's nothing to be upset about. This situation has been poorly handled by BioWare.

 

Oh you can choose to be upset all you like, and there is nothing any of us can do about it. Just don't expect sympathy and support just because.

 

And frankly.. the reason some people even bother to respond to things they disagree with is to offer contrasting perspective on something as a way of assisting a shift in perspective for someone who is struggling. Setting aside deliberate attacks or ridicule... doing so is actually an act of empathy.... that you appear to be to self-involved to realize.

 

You can play the game happy.

You can play the game unhappy.

You can choose not to play the game and be happy.

You can choose not to play the game and be unhappy.

The choice is yours to make... because happiness (or the lack of it) is a self-inflicted state of being.

 

Now.. if all you want is to try to rally the masses to grab up pitchforks and hop in pickup trucks and race off to Austin... then you are on your own....because nobody is going to take hyperbole seriously... except may be a few who wish to lash out in their pain.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

What I am asking for is and apology to the only group of people hit with the very high costs for a single week - those who pre-ordered. Even the tiniest amount of foresight would have allowed them to announce the free skills a mere 2-3 days earlier and avoid all this angst.

 

Nobody here deserves an apology for something that affected the masses. The masses might deserve an apology in mass.....and they received a tangible and valuable one ----> No more skill training ever for anyone.

 

Now, I guess you could stick with the "I played and trained 55-60 before training went free, so I have been harmed.... Waaaaaahh!" But other then a few kindred souls who choose to play victim along with you.... you are not going to get much traction with that. All you are doing is perpetuating your misery by holding on instead of moving forward.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

The game was working as designed. BioWare made a go-forward QoL improvement. Happens all the time. Those sorts of things are never retro-active. Get over it.

 

I'm not demeaning. I'm ridiculing. Because that's the fate all ridiculous ideas should face. See? It's right there in the adjective.

 

I don't spend 60 hours a week grinding credits, either. In fact, in the last 4-5 months, I've just played the game. I haven't even crafted. If you exclude the coin I spent on Hypercrates, my credit balance still increased by more than enough to train all the skills 56-60. Shocking, ,how just playing the game and managing not to spend your credits like a drunken sailor on shore leave in Taiwan can make good things happen, right?

 

Credits are a valuable commodity to you? Credits are valueless to you if you spend them as fast as you get them. If you thought they were valuable, you'd hold on to some of them.

 

If this was a change to a long standing situation, I might agree. But they introduce a large credit sink, accessible only to those who pre-order, and remove it (or at least announce they're removing it) 3 days later. That is NOT normal. That is NOT standard for an MMO. Surely it's perfectly understandable that those affected are upset by this?

 

Also, as a former drunken sailor who has enjoyed shore leave in Taiwan, virtual items in a virtual economy is far too sensible a thing to spend money on to make that analogy work...

[Fluxsource]

Nobody here deserves an apology for something that affected the masses. The masses might deserve an apology in mass.....and they received a tangible and valuable one ----> No more skill training ever for anyone.

 

Now, I guess you could stick with the "I played and trained 55-60 before training went free, so I have been harmed.... Waaaaaahh!" But other then a few kindred souls who choose to play victim along with you.... you are not going to get much traction with that. All you are doing is perpetuating your misery by holding on instead of moving forward.

 

Did you actually read the words in my post? In order? With the understanding of what sentences are? Because it's pretty obvious I'm referring to the issue of the 55-60 training. If you DO understand that, then all you're really saying is "it doesn't matter because not many were affected". Thanks for the valuable input there.

 

(In case your comprehension skills really are lacking, that last part was sarcasm)

[Fluxsource]

Oh you can choose to be upset all you like, and there is nothing any of us can do about it. Just don't expect sympathy and support just because.

 

And frankly.. the reason some people even bother to respond to things they disagree with is to offer contrasting perspective on something as a way of assisting a shift in perspective for someone who is struggling. Setting aside deliberate attacks or ridicule... doing so is actually an act of empathy.... that you appear to be to self-involved to realize.

 

You can play the game happy.

You can play the game unhappy.

You can choose not to play the game and be happy.

You can choose not to play the game and be unhappy.

The choice is yours to make... because happiness (or the lack of it) is a self-inflicted state of being.

 

Now.. if all you want is to try to rally the masses to grab up pitchforks and hop in pickup trucks and race off to Austin... then you are on your own....because nobody is going to take hyperbole seriously... except may be a few who wish to lash out in their pain.

 

I'm not seeing any empathy or attempt to help others. All I'm seeing is "suck it up, waaaa". Which isn't really that constructive.

 

As for hyperbole, perhaps you can point out where I have resorted to hyperbole, because I'm not sure I can spot it. I'm continuing to post to try and.... actually I'm not sure. But I'm pretty annoyed by this and... whatever .

[Andryah]

Did you actually read the words in my post? In order? With the understanding of what sentences are? Because it's pretty obvious I'm referring to the issue of the 55-60 training. If you DO understand that, then all you're really saying is "it doesn't matter because not many were affected". Thanks for the valuable input there.

 

(In case your comprehension skills really are lacking, that last part was sarcasm)

 

Oooo... personal snarky attack as a response.... I'm quaking...

 

I did read everything you said. I'm not even going to dignify your pain about 55-60 training costs, because they simply are not a valid factor here. It like a company sold a product at one price and then next day they replaced it on the shelf with a better product at an even lower price... I'm sure you would cry a river over that too. Of course you will subjectively reject my analogy.. and I can come back with dozens more from real life where things actually means something when they are lost or taken away or replaced.

 

You are flat out wrong to be offended, IMO, ... but hey..... it's your life.. have at it. I can't stop your nonsense... I can only ignore it. But you know what... you are not getting a personal response from Bioware, much less an apology.. because they consider the issue closed and resolved with the free training. Now.. if you swear that you will never ever train again..... then maybe you can hold on to that raging insult of them pulling the training costs After you paid some during early access (something thousands of players also did.. and are fine with the solution here).

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I'm not seeing any empathy or attempt to help others. All I'm seeing is "suck it up, waaaa". Which isn't really that constructive.

 

When someone acknowledges your concerns (which frankly a majority of players have done over this issue this last week, even when disagreeing on specific points) and then takes time to provide alternate perspective to assist with overcoming the pain you are feeling.... that is empathy... at least as much empathy as one can expect on the internetz.

 

Stop taking disagreement or alternative perspectives as an attack on your personal feelings.

 

So... how long are you going to stay bitter about this? Because frankly... only you can drop the bitterness. All the rest of us can do is have a conversation with you. Most of us are not going to rally with you on the pitchforked masses swarming Austin.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

Oooo... personal snarky attack as a response.... I'm quaking...

 

I did read everything you said. I'm not even going to dignify your pain about 55-60 training costs, because they simply are not a valid factor here. It like a company sold a product at one price and then next day they replaced it on the shelf with a better product at an even lower price... I'm sure you would cry a river over that too.

 

You are flat out wrong to be offended, IMO, ... but hey..... it's your life.. have at it. I can't stop your nonsense... I can only ignore it. But you know what... you are not getting a personal response from Bioware, much less an apology.. because they consider the issue closed and resolved with the free training. Now.. if you swear that you will never ever train again..... then maybe you can hold on to that raging insult of them pulling the training costs After you paid some during early access (something thousands of players also did.. and are fine with the solution here).

 

The 55-60 training costs are actually what the complaint is about. So pretty a pretty valid factor here.

 

The snarky response what due to your reply apparently not understanding what the complaint was about. And to re-iterate, I'm not upset about the training costs, or about them now being free, but the terrible timing of the decisions, releases and announcements that have left some players feeling screwed over.

[Andryah]

The 55-60 training costs are actually what the complaint is about. So pretty a pretty valid factor here.

 

The snarky response what due to your reply apparently not understanding what the complaint was about. And to re-iterate, I'm not upset about the training costs, or about them now being free, but the terrible timing of the decisions, releases and announcements that have left some players feeling screwed over.

 

Yes yes... I'm sure they did it just to hurt you and turn you against the game.

 

They observed a trending and serious issue expressed by players, apparently agreed with it, AND had an easy fix already on the shelf from the pre-release 12x event that they could plug in and make sure nobody is ever impacted by training costs again.

 

>>>> They made a mistake, they embraced the mistake and offered a broad reaching remedy that would benefit EVERY player from today until the game sunsets sometime down the road.

 

Now.. unless you have never made a mistake and never offended anyone and offered a real olive branch of remedy.. I think we are done here.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

When someone acknowledges your concerns (which frankly a majority of players have done over this issue this last week, even when disagreeing on specific points) and then takes time to provide alternate perspective to assist with overcoming the pain you are feeling.... that is empathy... at least as much empathy as one can expect on the internetz.

 

Stop taking disagreement or alternative perspectives as an attack on your personal feelings.

 

So... how long are you going to stay bitter about this? Because frankly... only you can drop the bitterness. All the rest of us can do is have a conversation with you. Most of us are not going to rally with you on the pitchforked masses swarming Austin.

 

I'm not asking anyone to join me on a crusade. Thank you for informing me you won't be joining me on such a crusade, but really that's not necessary.

 

As for "alternative perspectives", the deepest any of them have gotten is "you're wrong". Gee thanks, way to help me see things differently.

 

I'm not asking you for anything. I don't know how long I'll stay bitter about this, but you telling me not to be bitter probably isn't going to help.

[BAPACop]

If this was a change to a long standing situation, I might agree.

But it is a change to a long-standing situation. Training costs have been present, or were until today, for every level up to 55 and there was no reason to believe that upon the 3.0 update the levels past 55 would be any different. The game was operating as expected by charging you for training.

Nobody here deserves an apology for something that affected the masses. The masses might deserve an apology in mass.....and they received a tangible and valuable one ----> No more skill training ever for anyone.

They made a mistake, they embraced the mistake and offered a broad reaching remedy that would benefit EVERY player from today until the game sunsets sometime down the road.

I'm going to try to use some math to perhaps help you understand your opponent's position a little better: There is a group of 50 people who all have a point value. That value is X and it is at 0 for all of them. Out of that group, we randomly choose 10 and decrease their points by -2. Now we give EVERYONE 10 points.

 

Those original ten people are at 8 and not 10, where they should be. The difference between the values isn't as important as them being different. If everyone, including those unaffected by the original issue, is treated equally, then those affected by the issue are still worse off then the others. Free training for everyone doesn't resolve the issue of the losses because no matter how many credits they save in the future, they still won't get the credits they shouldn't have had to spend back.

 

For clarity: The 10 value refers to the theoretical modifier and not the actual value. Individuals will, of course, have different starting credit values and therefore different ending values even if not affected, but the effect that the removal training cost has, represented by the final values of 8 and 10, is net lower for those who paid extra.

It like a company sold a product at one price and then next day they replaced it on the shelf with a better product at an even lower price... I'm sure you would cry a river over that too.

That analogy is inaccurate because the product has not changed. A slightly more (though not entirely) accurate analogy would be a company selling a product and then the next day putting it on sale, which is technically covered under a policy known as "price adjustment".

You are flat out wrong to be offended, IMO, ... but hey..... it's your life.. have at it.

If this is an attempt at empathy, I'd hate to see what you call apathy.

Yes yes... I'm sure they did it just to hurt you and turn you against the game.

What's with the strawman?

Edited December 10, 2014 by BAPACop

[Fluxsource]

Yes yes... I'm sure they did it just to hurt you and turn you against the game.

 

They observed a trending and serious issue expressed by players, apparently agreed with it, AND had an easy fix already on the shelf from the pre-release 12x event that they could plug in and make sure nobody is ever impacted by training costs again.

 

Let me dumb it down: They made a mistake, they embraced the mistake and offered a broad reaching remedy that would benefit EVERY player from today until the game sunsets sometime down the road.

 

Now.. unless you have never made a mistake and never offended anyone and offered a real olive branch of remedy.. I think we are done here.

 

I've never implied or thought that it was done on purpose to upset or disadvantage people. And yes I've made mistakes. But a) I've done my best to rectify them (refunding credits spend on training since launch of 3.0 would do exactly that) b) I've acknowledged that I've upset someone, and apologized for it.

 

Is that the point you were trying to make?

 

Let me dumb it down for you. The made a mistake by having 3 days of high training costs for a subset of players, before removing them. They have not acknowledged this mistake, nor offered any remedy.

 

I am NOT against removing training costs. At all.

 

[EDIT: I see you've edited your original post to remove the "Let me dumb it down for you part" - please ready mine as if it is also removed]

Edited December 10, 2014 by Fluxsource

[Andryah]

If this is an attempt at empathy, I'd hate to see what you call apathy.

 

Not at all. I have zero empathy since about two posts earlier for the party in question that I responded to. He's bitter, and he is persisting in being bitter. Nothing can change that now but him.

 

 

What's with the strawman?

 

No, it was sarcasm. I guess we need a special font for sarcasm.. because simply changing colors does not seem to work.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I am NOT against removing training costs. At all.

 

I understand that.

 

What I do not understand is your unwillingness to embrace the remedy they implemented and move forward.

 

When making remedy to a million players... it's nigh impossible to create a remedy effectively that will please everyone equally. I'm not sure why you do not understand that either.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[Fluxsource]

Not at all. I have zero empathy since about two posts earlier for the party in question that I responded to. He's bitter, and he is persisting in being bitter. Nothing can change that now but him.

 

I apologize for the unkind reply there. I am just irritated by people seemingly posting on this thread to simply say I should not be upset, and insisting I'm complaining about a different issue to the one I am. I shouldn't have taken it out on you.

[Fluxsource]

I understand that.

 

What I do not understand is your unwillingness to embrace the remedy they implemented and move forward.

 

They haven't offered any remedy. Nothing has been said since the announcement of the removal of training costs, which is what indirectly created the problem in the first place.

[BAPACop]

I guess we need a special font for sarcasm.. because simply changing colors does not seem to work.

You changed part of the quote to be the same color, so I thought you were highlighting that that particular sentence was a direct response to that particular quote. I like to just type [/sarcasm] when I'm being sarcastic.

What I do not understand is your unwillingness to embrace the remedy they implemented and move forward.

I believe I explained why people may not be satisfied with the remedy as implemented.

[Andryah]

I apologize for the unkind reply there. I am just irritated by people seemingly posting on this thread to simply say I should not be upset, and insisting I'm complaining about a different issue to the one I am. I shouldn't have taken it out on you.

 

I completely understand.

 

Unfortunately... in gaming forums.. there is always unneeded chaff being spread by some forum members (on both sides generally) that does nothing but inflame.

 

Now... if Bioware continued to stonewall us on any response to concerns and no attempt to make right with a broadly seen issue... I wouild embrace and support your frustrations. But.... considering the size and nature of the player base they serve... I think they did more then they actually had to do.. and I both appreciate and embrace their efforts.

 

Billions and billions of credits that use to go to training will now be used for other things by the players. ALL players.

[Andryah]

They haven't offered any remedy. Nothing has been said since the announcement of the removal of training costs, which is what indirectly created the problem in the first place.

 

Removal of training costs from the game forever ..... to address multiple different training costs issues raised by players with 3.0 is not a material form of remedy and apology to the masses for the angst it created????

 

Really??? Most players would disagree with you...even those that would like a training refund for the expenses of the last week.

 

I guess we have to agree to be in separate, but parallel, universes.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah

[BAPACop]

Removal of training costs from the game forever ..... to address multiple different training costs issues raised by players with 3.0 is not a material form of remedy and apology to the masses for the angst it created????

Seriously, I explained this.

[Fluxsource]

I completely understand.

 

Unfortunately... in gaming forums.. there is always unneeded chaff being spread by some forum members (on both sides generally) that does nothing but inflame.

 

Now... if Bioware continued to stonewall us on any response to concerns and no attempt to make right with a broadly seen issue... I wouild embrace and support your frustrations. But.... considering the size and nature of the player base they serve... I think they did more then they actually had to do.. and I both appreciate and embrace their efforts.

 

Billions and billions of credits that use to go to training will now be used for other things by the players. ALL players.

 

But I believe there IS a solution that could make everyone happy. Make the free training change retroactive to since the launch of 3.0. It makes sense to have such a significant change launched at the same time as a major update. And I'm led to believe that this is technically possible. It's fair for all, and negates any disadvantage some had by training in the first week of the expansion. Remember that these new skills/skill levels were only introduced a week ago - it's a pretty small, but costly, window we're talking about here.