Slinger/Sniper - Survivability ISSUE!

[Xanas]

Oh its not a loss of control huh?

 

Not being able to cast almost all your defensive abilities because someone pressed 1 button is not a loss of control? Amazing! Please tell us more!

 

Oh I see. So when you are running from point A to point B you are not in control of your character because you are not in cover? How about when they are on CD and you can't use them? Is that also loss of control? How about when someone is LOS'ing you and you can't hit him?

Please tell us more dude.

 

**** dude. This whole thread is about sniper survivability which is utterly piss poor. Diversion being yet another mechanic that strips away a snipers survivability. That is the whole reason it was brought up in the first place. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Oh wait... yeh you don't play a sniper.

 

I did say that I agree you guys need a buff but a ability that is shared ONLY by snipers can't be an issue since you yourself have access to it. You can do the same damn thing to HIM. Its a hit to your defenses but just as big of a + to your offensive as you can **** up the sniper to. Just use it better then him.

[SportFree]

read 1st page, rest tl;dr.

 

u have actually a ability besides your cc breaker to get rid of roots. the aggro reset purges roots, but ofc this doesnt help u a bit, because u are getting rooted and even if u are not jugs will bug your roll and u cant get away anyway.

 

we surely need a oh **** cd again. after the orbi nerv theres is just nothing that can actually hurt melees around us..

 

[...] keep the area of affect and duration the same, and remove the whole pulling out of cover thing.

 

this is it.

Edited December 7, 2014 by SportFree

[Elracor]

Yes completely irrelevant considering you can do the same exact thing to the other player. Play better then him, find a better team then him and this is a non-issue. Why bring that class? Because it can shut down another sniper just as well. So play better, problem fixed. You need to BRING the class to counter the class. This ability only belongs to snipers, if any other class would have it I would agree.

 

EDIT: The other issues sniper have with being pulled out of cover is another discussion and I do agree they need more to deal with those issues.

 

The problem here is that it's all down to one ability + team communication.

It's a matter of timing Diversion with your teammates so you can watch them nuke their Sniper while the opponents are nuking you after you got hit by their Diversion.

Having a Sniper on both teams is basically reducing the 4v4 fight to a 3v3, the Sniper players' skills apart from using Diversion are pretty much irrelevant as you'll be nuked (if the other team is any good that is) out before you get to use other skills.

[JackNader]

Blah blah blah.

 

[Nightkin]

Change diversion to a pure aoe 40% acc debuff for a few seconds that does not bring sniper/slinger out of cover, problem solved?

[Elracor]

Change diversion to a pure aoe 40% acc debuff for a few seconds that does not bring sniper/slinger out of cover, problem solved?

 

Removing the "cover part" and letting the rest of Diversion be as it is now would be perfectly fine with me.

[Nightkin]

Removing the "cover part" and letting the rest of Diversion be as it is now would be perfectly fine with me.

Seems reasonably to me but i dont main sniper so i will leave the details to the sniper/slingers.

[Elracor]

 

Revamped Skillful Utility

Ballistic Dampers (GS) / Ballistic Dampers (S) :

Passive

Entering Cover grants 5 charges of Ballistic Dampers. Each charge absorbs 25% of the damage dealt by an incoming attack. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1 second. Ballistic Dampers can only be gained while in Cover and are replenished every 10 (or maybe 15?) seconds.

 

I like the idea of Ballstic Dampeners (and Snap Shot too? :P ) renewing itself without having to exit+reenter cover. I'd suggest you "only" get 2-3 charges when entering cover and then charges build as you stay in cover with a cap of 5-8, e.g. 1 charge added every 2-4 seconds.

[JackNader]

Any initial dampers gained above 1 stack from entering cover defeats the purpose. Ie getting 3 charges will still force the sniper in and out of cover as they are eaten up faster than they can be replenished via being in cover. It would have to be 1 charge with a reasonably quick replenish rate. None of that solves the real issue tho. The entire problem with the class is the "ease" at which they can be pushed out of cover coupled with the fact that almost all of their defensive abilities require them to be in cover.

 

In the past I would have been dead set against giving snipers blanket CC immunity.. I think with the 3.0 meta changing and the sheer number of classes which can laugh at snipers roots, snares and stuns, they kinda need it.

 

Fairest solution I can think of right now is

 

*Ballistic dampener revamp

*Hunker down breaks stuns and puts the sniper into cover

*Roll useable while rooted and clears movement effects

*Diversion 45% accuracy loss without the expose mechanic

* set shield probe back to 15 seconds

Edited December 7, 2014 by JackNader

[Elracor]

Any initial dampers gained above 1 stack from entering cover defeats the purpose. Ie getting 3 charges will still force the sniper in and out of cover as they are eaten up faster than they can be replenished via being in cover. It would have to be 1 charge with a reasonably quick replenish rate. None of that solves the real issue tho. The entire problem with the class is the "ease" at which they can be pushed out of cover coupled with the fact that almost all of their defensive abilities require them to be in cover.

 

In the past I would have been dead set against giving snipers blanket CC immunity.. I think with the 3.0 meta changing and the sheer number of classes which can laugh at snipers roots, snares and stuns, they kinda need it.

 

I think "force sniper in and out of cover" is exaggerating. Rather, it leaves the Sniper with a choice of playing it safe and slowly gain charges or take the chance for a quick extra set of charges. Either way, I still think gaining charges at any rate while in cover will be a boost to what we have now.

Edited December 7, 2014 by MFollin

[VdFExarKun]

You just lose a PORTION of your abilities. You can steal roll and do stuff that does not require cover...

 

If you are hit by Diversion, you are NOT able to use your roll aka Covered Escape and normally you get rooted too while you stand in the Diversion effect, there is like nothing you can do as a Slinger/Sniper against this.

 

Honestly, this ability would be completely fine with me IF Slingers/Snipers would have some very good DCD to use in the case of being hit by Diversion but we have none. You can use all your DCDs and yet it only takes like 1 guy to kill you and you got an awesome accuracy debuff on you too in order for you to not disturb the people that are killing you.

A Slinger/Sniper is complete out of the picture with Diversion and it's ridiculous that the same class can screw eachother so bad and you will be dependent on your team. There is not even room for skill in there.

 

Again like I said, Slinger/Sniper was very dependent on their teammates before 3.0, now after 3.0 if in the enemy team is a Slinger/Sniper, you are even more dependent on your team.

 

How is that fair? Making us more and more dependent on others? Why?!

 

I'd like to be independent as a Slinger/Sniper again, like it was before the OS nerf.

 

u have actually a ability besides your cc breaker to get rid of roots. the aggro reset purges roots, but ofc this doesnt help u a bit, because u are getting rooted and even if u are not jugs will bug your roll and u cant get away anyway.

 

Yes I know, but that utility is utterly useless and shouldn't be an utility at all. Furthermore you don't have the utility points to take it because you will miss out on one of the far more important utilities for PvP.

Meaning that utility is not an option.

 

Change diversion to a pure aoe 40% acc debuff for a few seconds that does not bring sniper/slinger out of cover, problem solved?

 

You know what? I think this ability should be removed completely, I have been thinking about it the entire day and how to change it and I cannot come up with something that is reasonable and satisfying.

 

Don't encourage him. We've endured 3 years worth of Stun Wars : The frozen republic. The consensus is hands down that people don't find it fun watching their character being beaten to death while suffering a severe loss of control. Introducing abilities that completely shut down a class is in no way different from the above. It's not fun. It's not skillful and it brings nothing to the game but a lot of frustration.

 

Well said.

[JackNader]

I think "force sniper in and out of cover" is exaggerating. Rather, it leaves the Sniper with a choice of playing it safe and slowly gain charges or take the chance for a quick extra set of charges. Either way, I still think gaining charges at any rate while in cover will be a boost to what we have now.

 

That's not really the point. If they are going to design a class around the cover mechanic (which they have) It's not smart gameplay to introduce mechanics which require a player to enter and exit cover. It's really counter intuitive.

[VdFExarKun]

I like the idea of Ballstic Dampeners (and Snap Shot too? :P ) renewing itself without having to exit+reenter cover. I'd suggest you "only" get 2-3 charges when entering cover and then charges build as you stay in cover with a cap of 5-8, e.g. 1 charge added every 2-4 seconds.

 

Well I think that is some sort of balancing act since the charges get eaten sometimes by tiny DoTs. That is one of the reasons why I was thinking that the charges should replenish themselves over time but only if you are in Cover.

 

Sure you can suggest that and I think there are even more different ways to change Ballistic Dampers, like change the number of the charges, the time to replenish, the inital numbers of charges, the amount of absorbed damage by 1 charge and so on.

 

Nonetheless I think that charges of Ballistic Dampers should get replenished while being in Cover.

I honestly cannot see a reason why this shouldn't be the case.

 

That's not really the point. If they are going to design a class around the cover mechanic (which they have) It's not smart gameplay to introduce mechanics which require a player to enter and exit cover. It's really counter intuitive.

 

Exactly.

Also one of the reasons I thought of Ballistic Dampers getting replenished while you stay in Cover and not to move out of Cover every 6 seconds to regain Ballistic Dampers.

Edited December 7, 2014 by VdFExarKun

[Elracor]

That's not really the point. If they are going to design a class around the cover mechanic (which they have) It's not smart gameplay to introduce mechanics which require a player to enter and exit cover. It's really counter intuitive.

 

What part of my suggestion requires the player to enter and then exit cover?

 

Exactly.

Also one of the reasons I thought of Ballistic Dampers getting replenished while you stay in Cover and not to move out of Cover every 6 seconds to regain Ballistic Dampers.

 

If that's your goal then your suggestion seems really odd to me:

 

Revamped Skillful Utility

Ballistic Dampers (GS) / Ballistic Dampers (S) :

Passive

Entering Cover grants 5 charges of Ballistic Dampers. Each charge absorbs 25% of the damage dealt by an incoming attack. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1 second. Ballistic Dampers can only be gained while in Cover and are replenished every 10 (or maybe 15?) seconds.

 

Your suggestion very much suggest moving out of cover and then back in as that will give you 5 charges, especially when the alternative is to wait 10-15 seconds (which is a lot in an Arena IMO).

 

You know what? I think this ability should be removed completely, I have been thinking about it the entire day and how to change it and I cannot come up with something that is reasonable and satisfying.

 

Your thread is about Survivability issues and you want to remove a skill that gives your opponents -45% accuracy?

If they remove the Cover part of the skill (so we aren't "forced" to use it on other Snipers) it's IMO a really powerful DCD, and even a DCD we can use to help our allies if they're being attacked.

Edited December 7, 2014 by MFollin

[kvandertulip]

Your thread is about Survivability issues and you want to remove a skill that gives your opponents -45% accuracy?

If they remove the Cover part of the skill (so we aren't "forced" to use it on other Snipers) it's IMO a really powerful DCD, and even a DCD we can use to help our allies if they're being attacked.

 

Yeah I wouldn't want to get rid of it completely. It is pretty awesome as a melee defense when they have their cc immunities up.

[VdFExarKun]

Your suggestion very much suggest moving out of cover and then back in as that will give you 5 charges, especially when the alternative is to wait 10-15 seconds (which is a lot in an Arena IMO).

 

Yes, you are right. It isn't very clear, let me change it.

 

This is the update:

 

Revamped Skillful Utility

Ballistic Dampers (GS) / Ballistic Dampers (S) :

Passive

Grants 5 charges of Ballistic Dampers. Each charge absorbs 25% of the damage dealt by an incoming attack. This effect cannot occur more than once each second. Ballistic Dampers only absorb damage while being in Cover and 1 charge of Ballistic Dampers is replenished every 8 seconds (does not require to be in Cover to be replenished).

 

This change would improve Ballistic Dampers, giving Slinger/Sniper 2 more charges in case our currently 3 charges are eaten very fast by DoTs (maybe even tiny DoTs) and because of that reducing the amount of absorbed damage by 5% from 30% to 25%. Furthermore remove the requirement to regain Ballistic Dampers by exiting cover and going back into it, instead have Ballistic Dampers replenish themselves 1 charge every 8 seconds while you are in Cover and out of Cover and keep them on the buff bar visible (meaning when you take the Ballistic Dampers utility you get the charges of BD on your buff bar all the time except if you have 0 charges left) and ofc Ballistic Dampers would only have an effect when you are in Cover. It's kinda like Entrench.

 

This should be more understandable? Right?

 

 

Your thread is about Survivability issues and you want to remove a skill that gives your opponents -45% accuracy?

If they remove the Cover part of the skill (so we aren't "forced" to use it on other Snipers) it's IMO a really powerful DCD, and even a DCD we can use to help our allies if they're being attacked.

 

When I was writing that I was already thinking of something else that would keep the -45% accuracy debuff and also growing frustrated a little bit with this ability and chose my words too hasty when I said to remove the ability entirely.

Ah well you know, changing stuff, coming up with new stuff and so on, is not that easy.

Edited December 7, 2014 by VdFExarKun

[Elracor]

Yes, you are right. It isn't very clear, let me change it.

 

This is the update:

 

 

 

This should be more understandable? Right?

 

Hmm, I think I know what you mean with it, but there's still some issues between "You get 5 charges for entering cover" and how charges are replenished every 8 seconds.

What about:

 

Revamped Skillful Utility

Ballistic Dampers (GS) / Ballistic Dampers (S) :

Passive

You gain a stack of Ballistic Dampers every X (8?) seconds, stacking up to Y(5?) times. When in cover, each charge absorbs 25% of the damage dealt by an incoming attack. This effect cannot occur more than once each second.

 

Something like "Entrench/Hunker/something-else adds Z (e.g. 3) charges of Ballistic Dampers" would be a nice addition too to go along with this change.

 

 

When I was writing that I was already thinking of something else that would keep the -45% accuracy debuff and also growing frustrated a little bit with this ability and chose my words too hasty when I said to remove the ability entirely.

Ah well you know, changing stuff, coming up with new stuff and so on, is not that easy.

 

Ah ok. I wouldn't be against moving the -45% acc to a different skill, but I'm having a hard time seeing which skill could gain this boost and still be as useful as Diversion currently is.

The only trade I can think of that I'd like would be to remove Diversion and -45%acc and instead make Flashbang AoE blind again (and then we have the -20% acc from Utility if you want).

Edited December 7, 2014 by MFollin

[VdFExarKun]

Hmm, I think I know what you mean with it, but there's still some issues between "You get 5 charges for entering cover" and how charges are replenished every 8 seconds.

What about:

 

Revamped Skillful Utility

Ballistic Dampers (GS) / Ballistic Dampers (S) :

Passive

You gain a stack of Ballistic Dampers every X (8?) seconds, stacking up to Y(5?) times. When in cover, each charge absorbs 25% of the damage dealt by an incoming attack. This effect cannot occur more than once each second.

 

I think that sounds good. I will add it to the OP.

 

 

Ah ok. I wouldn't be against moving the -45% acc to a different skill, but I'm having a hard time seeing which skill could gain this boost and still be as useful as Diversion currently is.

The only trade I can think of that I'd like would be to remove Diversion and -45%acc and instead make Flashbang AoE blind again (and then we have the -20% acc from Utility if you want).

 

Yes, that could be a thing. Give Flash Bang the AoE mezz back with a radius of (idk) 5 meters? And an accuracy debuff of 45%. One of these two effects should be an utility or both and replacing the current one for Flash Bang.

[Technohic]

I'd rather keep the 45% accuracy reduction off of a resolve nightmare.

[Elracor]

I think that sounds good. I will add it to the OP.

 

Looks good

 

Yes, that could be a thing. Give Flash Bang the AoE mezz back with a radius of (idk) 5 meters? And an accuracy debuff of 45%. One of these two effects should be an utility or both and replacing the current one for Flash Bang.

 

That would make Flashbang really good, the question is just the price.

What about:

Standard Flashbang: Mezzes one target, gives -20% acc to enemies within X meters of the target

Skillful Utility Flash Powder: Accuracy debuff increased to -45% acc (or a bit less since you can move out of Diversion AoE?)

Heroic Utility, replaces Crippling Diversion: Flashbang mezzes up to X targets in a radius of Y meters.

 

With this Flashbang becomes a really good skill, but not without a cost.

 

I'd rather keep the 45% accuracy reduction off of a resolve nightmare.

 

Hmm, that is a good point :/ What about my suggestion in this post, where the AoE Mezz is something you can choose rather than something mandatory to the skill?

Edited December 7, 2014 by MFollin

[Technohic]

Looks good

 

 

 

That would make Flashbang really good, the question is just the price.

What about:

Standard Flashbang: Mezzes one target, gives -20% acc to enemies within X meters of the target

Skillful Utility Flash Powder: Accuracy debuff increased to -45% acc (or a bit less since you can move out of Diversion AoE?)

Heroic Utility, replaces Crippling Diversion: Flashbang mezzes up to X targets in a radius of Y meters.

 

With this Flashbang becomes a really good skill, but not without a cost.

 

 

 

Hmm, that is a good point :/

 

Good point is an understatement. You guys with your flashbang talk are on the verge of making the class worse, TBH. Leave flashbang as is.

[VdFExarKun]

What about:

Standard Flashbang: Mezzes one target, gives -20% acc to enemies within X meters of the target

Skillful Utility Flash Powder: Accuracy debuff increased to -45% acc (or a bit less since you can move out of Diversion AoE?)

Heroic Utility, replaces Crippling Diversion: Flashbang mezzes up to X targets in a radius of Y meters.

 

With this Flashbang becomes a really good skill, but not without a cost.

 

Actually that kinda sounds nice.

 

Flash Powder reducing the accuracy by 45% for 8 seconds and Crippling Diversion changing to that Flash Bang mezzes up to 5 targets or so and reducing their accuracy by 45%.

 

Could be a thing?

[KingKalbo]

Has nothing to do with the other guy. That is a player skill issue alone. The problem is it is more of a harm than it is a help to the class and no other class has an ability that specifically targets them. If it stays, I ask that all operatives have and ability that stops them from healing for 9 seconds. All jugs to have an ability that removes other jugs DCDs for 9 seconds. So on and so forth.

 

I could see them tooling diversion to also work as a dbuff that say prevents guard for tanks for the duration; and stealth for stealthers that got hit with it. I DEVS would not take away the cover break; then this seems only fair.

[VdFExarKun]

I could see them tooling diversion to also work as a dbuff that say prevents guard for tanks for the duration; and stealth for stealthers that got hit with it. I DEVS would not take away the cover break; then this seems only fair.

 

Or prevent a Jugg from charging, a Sorc from using his bubble or even REMOVE the bubble from him and so on.

Edited December 8, 2014 by VdFExarKun

[diadox]

Good point is an understatement. You guys with your flashbang talk are on the verge of making the class worse, TBH. Leave flashbang as is.

 

This, please. For one, I want to keep our major accuracy debuff off of resolve (especially considering the cc-breaking mess that is everywhere now that dot spreading is a thing). For another, I like to use flashbang to prevent heals or guard swaps, but I want the accuracy debuff on the dps.