Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[DarthSpuds]

I have recently seen players razzle other players in Pugs for.....

 

1) Not healing properly

2) Pulling trash at the wrong times

3) Pulling too many mobs at once

4) Not having the right equipment

5) Not playing their class properly

6) Wearing the wrong appearance for their class (yes, this really happened)

7) Not spacebarrng

8) Not keeping up with the group

9) Not killing enough mobs compared to everyone else

10) Not fighting the bosses properly

11) Not managing agro properly

12) Chatting about non-game things in chat

13) Chatting about the game in chat

14) Chatting in chat

15) Being too low of a level in KDY (as if that makes a real difference)

16) Using the wrong lightsaber color

17) Using the wrong rotation

 

...this was just since last week, mostly in KDY. This is one of the big problems with raiding in this game (and of course in general across the market). The attitude of folks that raid seems to be the biggest detriment to the survival of raiding. Until this attitude changes, or players deride others acting in this way it is going to be difficult for raids to survive and remain relevant.

 

Yeah, I've always found that the attitude of Raiders toward helping non-raiders make that step-up is part of the reason so few players bother with it.

 

How many times do you see a "Must know Tacs, /w achi" etc when Raiders are looking for more for their groups?

 

Surely to keep the raiding side of the game healthy by bringing more and more players in to it they should be helping new raiders ;earn the tactics, get the achievements and gear-up.

 

LOTRO no longer has raids because such a low percentage of the playerbase bothered raiding, and so few bothered with it because of this.

 

All The Best

[davidp_newton]

I have recently seen players razzle other players in Pugs for.....

 

1) Not healing properly

2) Pulling trash at the wrong times

3) Pulling too many mobs at once

4) Not having the right equipment

5) Not playing their class properly

6) Wearing the wrong appearance for their class (yes, this really happened)

7) Not spacebarrng

8) Not keeping up with the group

9) Not killing enough mobs compared to everyone else

10) Not fighting the bosses properly

11) Not managing agro properly

12) Chatting about non-game things in chat

13) Chatting about the game in chat

14) Chatting in chat

15) Being too low of a level in KDY (as if that makes a real difference)

16) Using the wrong lightsaber color

17) Using the wrong rotation

 

...this was just since last week, mostly in KDY. This is one of the big problems with raiding in this game (and of course in general across the market). The attitude of folks that raid seems to be the biggest detriment to the survival of raiding. Until this attitude changes, or players deride others acting in this way it is going to be difficult for raids to survive and remain relevant.

 

Let''s see; of those 6, 7, 12 ,13, 14, 15 and 16 and are completely irrelevant to the outcome of the game, except if the chat is during a boss fight and conceivably prevents a kill being achieved; 8 and 9 are not reasonable to make a fuss over; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11 and 17 ARE legitimate criticisms.

 

In tactical FPs 1 and 11 are much less relevant, but in any HM FP or op pulling trash at the wrong time or poor agro management can kill the group. Pulling trash at the wrong time before people have had a chance to heal up/regen can again kill the group. Pulling too many trash mobs can kill the group. Not playing a class "properly" is to a degree subjective, but again it can lead to a wipe. For example playing a vanguard, powertech, scoundrel or operative as a "ranged" DPS is wrong and would certainly count as not playing an advanced class properly. Not executing mechanics is again something that leads to wipes on harder content so is a legitimate criticism. Yesterday I took part in two TFB HM PUG runs. One failed at the TFB due it being late and enrage occurring due to lack of DPS. The other ran smack into Op IX and failed due to people being derpy and sloppy in their execution of mechanics. The run that reached the TFB also wiped 3 times on Op IX but it was clear that we stood a chance of killing it. People were clearly learning from their mistakes on each wipe, unlike the second group where the same mistakes were made several times with no improvement. Ranting at someone who mucks up mechanics for the first time is not reasonable. Being annoyed at someone who mucks up the same mechanics over and over and over again in the same way, despite being told how to do it correctly and seeing others do it correctly is perfectly reasonable. For 17 see enrage timers or burn phase mechanics. If people aren't using the proper rotation they won't be putting out enough damage to kill the boss in time or producing enough threat to hold agro.

 

As I said in the previous paragraph, ranting at someone the first time they make a mistake in a run is not reasonable, with one exception. If people have been asked before a fight whether they need the mechanics explaining and no one says they need an explanation then it is quite reasonable to assume that everyone knows what to do. If a person then simply stands around and/or runs around like a headless chicken thereafter they have either panicked or they do not know the fight after all. Assuming said standing around/headless chicken behaviour leads to a wipe, if, after checking their achievements, it turns out that they haven't done the fight before it is perfectly correct to chew them out in ops chat. They were given the opportunity to ask for help, ignored said opportunity and thereby caused a wipe. That is a waste of in-game credits for the wipe bill and more importantly it is a colossal waste of peoples' valuable time. I don't care about the reason people didn't ask for help, be it social shyness, over-estimation of their own ability or having received a hostile reception previously when asking for help. What I care about is the negative result of that behaviour, which is completely avoidable, and thus deserving of castigation.

 

BTW I really don't think you mean what you are saying using razzle: razzle means going out on the town and enjoying yourself whilst drinking lots of alcohol!

[LordArtemis]

Well, honestly, I personally see no issue with folks requesting certain criteria for raids in chat when LFG or groupfinder exists. I also do not have issue with folks making LEGITIMATE complaints or suggestions in HM or Ops. Folks should be expected to conduct themselves properly in that kind of difficult content.

 

But the purpose of a Pug for tacticals or SM is that it is a place that folks can...well..."pick up" a group. So that means that the selection is random without preset conditions other than what is the group criteria set by the tool.

 

So, as long as you heal, damage or tank, your performance, appearance, knowledge of your class, etc is not something that others can judge since it is a random grouping tool.

 

If you wish to set raiding criteria, no problem....you run a premade, or you stick to HM or Ops. If you decide to try and run an SM through groupfinder, or even a tactical frankly I feel like unless you wish to be helpful you should likely keep your mouth shut.

 

Know your place. You are using a random group tool. It is foolish to expect top performance from folks thrown together by a groupfinding tool for tacticals or SM.

 

THIS is what is killing raids, if anything. This is where casuals are introduced to raiding, and this type of toxic behavior can turn them off.

 

I would like to see players band together to kick these kind of miscreants. I feel the very future of raids depends on it.

Edited January 7, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Drockter]

I would like to see players band together to kick these kind of miscreants. I feel the very future of raids depends on it.

 

My issue really comes in at the attitudes part. Personally, If I am leading an Ops... I'll kick the player attacking others. If I'm not the lead, I've left teams over it (whether or not the comments were directed at me). I play the game for fun and enjoyment... and well (to me) that type of player ruins it for me.

 

While I generally avoid the "w/ achi" or "know fights" groups to a large extent... I do have to say, that they are looking to have fun their way as well, and not all players who form teams like these are elitist, nor harsh on others. Not sure it is fair to beat down on players for wanting to have smooth runs... if that is what they enjoy.

[Jandi]

My issue really comes in at the attitudes part. Personally, If I am leading an Ops... I'll kick the player attacking others. If I'm not the lead, I've left teams over it (whether or not the comments were directed at me). I play the game for fun and enjoyment... and well (to me) that type of player ruins it for me.

 

While I generally avoid the "w/ achi" or "know fights" groups to a large extent... I do have to say, that they are looking to have fun their way as well, and not all players who form teams like these are elitist, nor harsh on others. Not sure it is fair to beat down on players for wanting to have smooth runs... if that is what they enjoy.

 

Someone who gets it.

 

If you impose your own concept of fun onto others (laid back, fun ops), and then cry when another gorup does the same, you're a hypocrite.

 

I have no issue with either kind of raiding. I can raid 6h straight, hardcore wipefests on the hardest content just as easily as I can chill for 2h and wipe on silly things. As long as the type of raid I'm joining is made obvious before we start wiping.

 

Nothing irks me more than people saying "link achi, fast run gogo" and then they themselves are completely and utterly clueless morons.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

These guys openly and fully believe that the entire game needs to be built around their particular minority, without any concern or time or even respect given to the other minorities.

 

Max, you can easily say the same thing for PVPrs, solo players, crafters, PVE players etc. Reading these forums makes it painfully obvious that everyone thinks the game should center around them.

[Khevar]

Max, you can easily say the same thing for PVPrs, solo players, crafters, PVE players etc. Reading these forums makes it painfully obvious that everyone thinks the game should center around them.

True, but it's simply logical, isn't it? People are going to lobby for the parts of the game they play. It's perfectly understandable.

 

I just wish some wouldn't lobby AGAINST the parts of the game they don't play.

 

I have zero interest in space PvP, but I don't feel compelled to convince Bioware that they're wasting money on it.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Khevar you get the post of the day award. I wish more people would follow that sentiment, imagine the game we would have then. But you are right, it is only natural, along with the warnings that the game is going to lose subscribers if certain individuals issues arent fixed, or the I am a casual gamer, so therefor whatever I want means ALL CASUALS WANT THAT. My question is, what is their experience in either game development, marketing strategies etc that they have this so called knowledge lol.

[Khevar]

Thanks

[LordArtemis]

I think the gist is this.

 

The market has changed from the days of old. I think most would not deny that.

 

Raids are not as popular as they used to be, and certainly have become easier over time, generally speaking, to match the shift in the market to a casual dominated playerbase.

 

If you accept both of these contentions (you can certainly reject them both if you wish) then I think the next step logically is to look at where raids are going, and how they need to further evolve to match the market.

 

That includes ways to modify them so they are generally more popular with a wider portion of the playerbase and find ways to introduce casual players into raiding. I do not see this as a foolish effort. The intent is to help raids evolve and survive, perhaps even thrive.

 

To me that means two things....

 

1) Developing raids with staged difficulties, starting with solo all the way up to "nightmare" modes. So you would have....

 

Solo, Tactical, SM and HM flashpoints. The SM flashpoints would have their difficulty reduced a bit to encourage participation, and SM/HM would have increased rewards.

 

SM and HM Operations. They would remain as they are, with perhaps increased rewards, and unique rewards for HM Operations as a "carrot", so to speak.

 

This would present a substantive progression from solo to HM Operations.

 

2) Encourage the raiding community to tone down the rhetoric in SM flashpoints, in order to properly train and transition casual players into harder content.

 

This would increase the amount of folks that participate in end game content, which would benefit the entire raiding portion of the playerbase IMO.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Artimes, the elitest *****hats will always be so, and not something game developers can change, but the SM mode ops are all ready easy. And I think your making a generization about all casuals want to play easy content. Which they dont. No one is arguing the demographic has changed, not sure why you keep referencing it as such.

 

BUT I am pretty sure that the game developers have more access to what demographic is doing what, and unless you have access to their data, all this is conjecture from what was written in an article, and your personal view.

 

I mean endgame ops (ie: raids) have always been for a dedicated crowd. If someone wants to get into, it is easy enough to learn mechanics on youtube, or even just ask in the OP and it will be explained. But there is also a resonsibility on the player to get starter gear so that they can actually be a constructive part of the raid. Which BW has made easy now since you can get 162 gear from comms vendor.

 

Imhave played MMOs with no raids, and at max level there is NOTHING to do. On ampersonal not, I am a business owner, as such I am in the number of casual players. And I dont wish to play a game that is so easy there is no challenge. Nor have people assume that because I am a casual I need virtual training wheels.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Artimes, the elitest *****hats will always be so, and not something game developers can change, but the SM mode ops are all ready easy. And I think your making a generization about all casuals want to play easy content. Which they dont. No one is arguing the demographic has changed, not sure why you keep referencing it as such.

 

BUT I am pretty sure that the game developers have more access to what demographic is doing what, and unless you have access to their data, all this is conjecture from what was written in an article, and your personal view.

 

I mean endgame ops (ie: raids) have always been for a dedicated crowd. If someone wants to get into, it is easy enough to learn mechanics on youtube, or even just ask in the OP and it will be explained. But there is also a resonsibility on the player to get starter gear so that they can actually be a constructive part of the raid. Which BW has made easy now since you can get 162 gear from comms vendor.

 

Imhave played MMOs with no raids, and at max level there is NOTHING to do. On ampersonal not, I am a business owner, as such I am in the number of casual players. And I dont wish to play a game that is so easy there is no challenge. Nor have people assume that because I am a casual I need virtual training wheels.

[Drockter]

Artimes, the elitest *****hats will always be so, and not something game developers can change, but the SM mode ops are all ready easy. And I think your making a generization about all casuals want to play easy content. Which they dont. No one is arguing the demographic has changed, not sure why you keep referencing it as such.

 

BUT I am pretty sure that the game developers have more access to what demographic is doing what, and unless you have access to their data, all this is conjecture from what was written in an article, and your personal view.

 

I mean endgame ops (ie: raids) have always been for a dedicated crowd. If someone wants to get into, it is easy enough to learn mechanics on youtube, or even just ask in the OP and it will be explained. But there is also a resonsibility on the player to get starter gear so that they can actually be a constructive part of the raid. Which BW has made easy now since you can get 162 gear from comms vendor.

 

Imhave played MMOs with no raids, and at max level there is NOTHING to do. On ampersonal not, I am a business owner, as such I am in the number of casual players. And I dont wish to play a game that is so easy there is no challenge. Nor have people assume that because I am a casual I need virtual training wheels.

 

To be fair, I don't believe LA is trying to say that all casuals need training wheels. I consider myself a casual player as well, have completed all ops (except TOS), i'd say about 3/4 way through the HM.

 

Like yourself, I enjoy the challenge... I believe what he is trying to convey (and I agree with), is that entry into Ops should be a little less shocking. While you and I may like the challenge... others have been put off from doing ops entirely due to the elitist crowd crowing how their gear isnt right, their rotation isnt right, etc etc. Or the sheer difficulty increase from the leveling experience. While we have no metrics to derive our conclusions, we can speculate and through anecdotal evidence that there is a move to make things easier over time.

 

Exact reasons... my belief is that because the typical gamer is more mobile nowadays. Switching games is not a huge issue... of course EA/BW want everyone to stick around to sub, buy CM items and such. Its not evil... but it is a thing. To do this, they constantly want you to win (contantly progress, give you something to keep you coming back). However, they don't want the Ops/Raids to be the private play ground of the hardcore gamer... since it is a large part of end-game. They also don't want to lose the hard core gamer crowd... so there is this tightrope that they walk to try and cater to both camps.

 

You are correct, and I do believe LA is looking having a pie in the sky/

moment thinking all issues could be resolved by more code... however, his intention and meaning is good. I am sure he meant no insult.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Drock,

 

No insult was taken, actually I enjoy LAs posts they are always well thought out. I am just trying to convey, that alot of times on the forums people associate casuals with wanting easy mode, which I really disagree with. And would even go so far as to say that the ones that DO want easy mode are the worst to target, because generally they have the attention span of a squirrel, and jump from game to game, so there would be no subscriber retention in the chase for their money.

 

like you said, it is a tightrope, and it has to be tread carefully. The elitest jerks are something you have to just deal with, like gold spammers, just ignore them, at least that is how I look at it. There is still plenty of cool ops players out there, and I always think it is a shame to coral them in with the elitest.

 

BTW, sorry everyone for the double post above, this darn tablet can be frustrating

[LordArtemis]

BTW, sorry everyone for the double post above, this darn tablet can be frustrating

 

No worries, so nice you had to say it twice.

[Grue_Hunter]

There was an interesting article over at Massively...

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/11/24/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-1/

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/11/25/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-2/

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/11/26/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-3/

 

Though I didnt agree with all of it's points (the author speculates somewhere around 10 percent of an MMOs playerbase raids, but industry studies have demonstrated this can go from as little as 2 percent all the way up to 35 percent, depending on the game), I could agree with some of the aspects presented in the article and certainly acknowledge that the market has changed.

 

I think it is more accurate to state that at least 40 percent of most MMOs players have ran at least one raid, even if it was not completed.

 

I do agree that it is likely a very small portion of the playerbase actually raids on a regular basis. Even less participate in hardcore raiding, and, unrelated and certainly arguable, even less engage in PVP.

 

It would be interesting to see what the ratios are like in this game.

 

Generally speaking, the vast majority of modern MMO players tend to be casual players, participate very little if any in end game content and generally are of a transient nature (hardcore players tend to be more loyal and dependable).

 

Unfortunately this is likely the state of the modern MMO market.

 

Obviously creating raid content likely represents a sizable investment...so I put forth the question that this author puts forth in part one of the list....should MMOs abandon raiding? I ask the question...will we see the end of traditional raiding in MMOs in the near future?

 

I tend to think, though games will likely become more casual friendly, they will still contain raid content...instead, I think raid content will continue to evolve to become much more casual friendly, like tactical flashpoints in this game.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

There is undoubtedly a change happening -- and I've seen it. And I think both you and the chap at Joystiq have a point. I think that there will always be people who do the operations/raids - but there are a growing number of people out there who "don't get it" and find that the practice of doing them is boring, repetitive or just doesn't appeal. (I'm one of those people who has lost interest in that part of the game. Plus the appeal of listening to people on a headset swearing and cursing away at their colleagues, or blaming them because their output is not at the optimal 4.2 hps, has become less attractive. Go figure.)

 

The addition of Conquest to SWTOR, I think, was a brilliant idea by the devs. (Good grief, I just said something nice about them on the forums.) And I think it is probably one of the ways that MMOs will go. Plus, it makes guilds and things like flashpoints and PvP (ground and GSF) more relevant and more important for the future of the game (and maybe gaming in general).

Edited January 8, 2015 by Grue_Hunter

[Vanisher]

I think rhe only way you can change raiding is change the mechanics of it and the reward system.

 

Most raids are kill some mobs then a boss repeat. SWG had a flashpoint or ops where u defended a city of mos Espa from invading tusken Raiders first phase you protected a few buildings where citizens are hiding and you would have a crew clearing streets while you protected those people then you would send out one or two and escort them to the spaceport. After you did that and rescued 10 then it was next phase which I can't really recall but I think it was cleaning the streets and the last phase was th boss it was trather fun it was a different mechanic.

 

But I also think that the article sheds light that MMos will have raiding but need to offer more. I think crafting should be main stream. I think crafters should craft all in game gear and stims. Now by doing a raid maybe you will get a drop for a rare schematic that you need the crafter to crafter. And that's just a shell and all mods are made by crafters. Maybe some of the crafting material has to be hunted down alittle harder to get but obtainable. Crafters need a bigger part of the game. The economy should be player based not raid based. A lot of players just want to Play and make a lot of cash and have that big bank account that aspect of crafting to make money is a small part of the game but that appeals to a select niche and adds to the value of the game.

 

I get how this game is designed to make cartel items to make real money but what bio ware should have done was say have the base subscription say $5 or $7 then say you want additional characters say you pay $1 per character slot per month. So for a hardcore gamer who wants all 8 rooms to see all 8 story lines would be paying the normal monthly subscription that we are paying now. Say you wanted different perks like a quick travel to a place maybe a one time cost of $2.00 to unlock a quick travel. If bioware would have made crafting more viable with their crew companion mechanic they could have had an app created tied into the game charging a $2.00 month for the app do you could send out companions and craft with them while u were away from home. That would have brought in extra cash. Maybe offering the odd speeder or armour crafting schematic shell so you keep the crafter in the loop and important in game. It's too bad they didn't make speeders an empty shell and crafters crafted the engines etc and there were ways with maybe quality of mats etc that determined the specs of the motor to help Crete some variation or a way to keep trying to reverse engineer to get better and better schematics to make better parts. If there would have been an in game race track that would have made speeder racing fun as well.

[Vanisher]

Just to clarify for raids still have the armour drops but have them as one time use schematics. So again you keep the crafters in the loop and having relevance.

[LordArtemis]

Yea, I really do not care for the gear slot machine....it is an antiquated mechanic that needs to go IMO. Instead, I think tokens that allow folks to choose what armor they want is much better, and then the rare drop that is given in very difficult content, like a special mount or decoration.

 

Almost anything other than the slot machine approach would be an improvement IMO.

[Jandi]

Yea, I really do not care for the gear slot machine....it is an antiquated mechanic that needs to go IMO. Instead, I think tokens that allow folks to choose what armor they want is much better, and then the rare drop that is given in very difficult content, like a special mount or decoration.

 

Almost anything other than the slot machine approach would be an improvement IMO.

 

That wold be great, for the first 10 weeks or so. Then, when the eager raiders had their gear, the ops would be *deserted* and new/returning players would have no one to raid with. It's annoying trying to fish for that one loot, but it keeps people raiding a lot longer.

 

There are too many people who think loot is the end goal, and not the tool that enables better performance.

[LordArtemis]

That wold be great, for the first 10 weeks or so. Then, when the eager raiders had their gear, the ops would be *deserted* and new/returning players would have no one to raid with. It's annoying trying to fish for that one loot, but it keeps people raiding a lot longer.

 

There are too many people who think loot is the end goal, and not the tool that enables better performance.

 

The carrot and stick method has had an effect....the reduced relevance of Raids. They are NOT keeping players playing by doing this IMO. It simply does not work any longer. The current waning population of raiders stands in evidence.

 

Just my view naturally.

[Vanisher]

I hate going back to SWG but the flashpoints they had dropped rare loot let's say a motor for a speeder that everyone wanted or a backpack that looked really cool. So even myself having that stuff we still grouped up as a guild to do the content because if we all had it we rolled for it and the winner just sold the loot. There were a lot of people who didn't want to raid but wanted gear so that idea of making money from selling a loot drop made us repeat te runs. We weren't crafters so selling the loot kept our pockets full so we could buy the gear we needed to raid with stones media a extra. It was a great circle and because we didn't have vendors because we were raiding toons we had deals setup with crafters they would buy from us and resell. It was fun dynamic. It was a circle right just like in life each person dependant on another. We helped stock up crafters and crafters helped feed the raiders need for gear. It was a cycle.

 

So I really think those armour drops should be one time use schematics. I think that there should be materials looted from mobs throughout the raid that drop a certain mat that is need to make these one time schematics. And if the mats only drop in those raids then you gotta keep raiding. And doing whatever raid drops those mats. Like for example even the cartel armour why not have those as one time schematics and after it is crafted it's bound on equip maybe to legacy but still bound after equipping. So even tho the new content is downed and beat you still go back for that rare mount or speeder or gear or just the mats to make the items. That would make raiding more worth while to repeat.

 

With crafting everything in game makes crafting more useful and probably a lot of people who left who like to craft would have stayed. People left this game for many reasons. I think and know a huge portion left because this game wasn't as immerse and open sandbox like SWG there is a huge following that play the SWG emulator I still find myself going back to it and there is a reason why that MMO still lives in in an emulation form free to play because it was a good game if it wasn't no one would have taken the time to do an emulator of it and no one would go back and play it lol. But yeah there needs to be more depth in the game to keep players in it.

[Vanisher]

Going back to the idea of making the cartel items one time use schematics would be great. Would make crafters more useful in game. If rare mats dropped in raids would make doing raids more often more useful. Or some mats dropping from the daily areas. Or having rare components drop all over the place and you need all the times plus mats plus the one time schematic to make the item. I think cartel items would still sell. I have 8 characters a lot of people do so they probably have all the proffesional covered to do the crafting they don't need anyone else but if they do its not hard to find someone. Plus a crafter may choose to buy extra cartel packs for the schemes and then have a stxk of them and use them as he has customers. So you may end up with more packs bought for these crafters who wanna craft and sell. And then u have the collectors who want that item so they buy the packs and then craft it themselves or have another person craft it for them.

[LordArtemis]

I like the idea of single use schematics. I remember that from SWG.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I like the idea of single use schematics. I remember that from SWG.

 

aaargh...another reference to swg. NOOOOooooo

 

just busting your chops LA. Although I reslly hate the RNG, because it seems no matter what MMO I play I always have bad luck with it. But I do see the previous posters point of it possibly slowing raid participation. But I dont think it would be a problem. To some extent they have the system in place. They all ready have unfinished gear you can turn in, so not much of a leap to change to schematics I would guess.