What if....Low Tier Wars

[RickDagles]

Everyone seemed to enjoy the Stock only night. And I think there have been a few successful Strike only nights. But what about a Low Tier ship night? This would create an entirely new and fun meta since powerful things like ion railgun, bomber spam, and burst scouts would be eliminated.

 

Qualifying ships:

 

T1 Strike - Starguard/Rycer

T2 Strike - Pike/Quell

T3 Scout - Spearpoint/Bloodmark

T2 Gunship - Comet Breaker/Strongarm/Dustmaker/Demolisher

T3 Bomber - Sledgehammer/Decimus

 

We could also include the T3 Strike (Clarion/Imperium) but I feel like it would be really hard to kill without the high burst damage. Any suggestions for this? Maybe Drak could host an event sometime.

Edited November 25, 2014 by RickDagles

[StrixHiraeth]

I think this sounds like a blast!

[StrixHiraeth]

Mostly because I think the Bloodmark is my favorite ship for pure fun flying

[Ryuku-sama]

Everyone seemed to enjoy the Stock only night. And I think there have been a few successful Strike only nights. But what about a Low Tier ship night? This would create an entirely new and fun meta since powerful things like ion railgun, bomber spam, and burst scouts would be eliminated.

 

Qualifying ships:

 

T1 Strike

T2 Strike

T3 Scout

T2 Gunship

T3 Bomber

 

We could also include the T3 Strike but I feel like it would be really hard to kill without the high burst damage. Any suggestions for this? Maybe Drak could host an event sometime.

 

What about my double missile Comet??? And my double missile Condor???

 

And between with TT and LC you will get a ship with about 70% of the quad'n'pod burst. Far enough to burst down a Strike.

[Drakkolich]

Honestly guys organizing an event is really easy for something like this.

 

<Insert Server Name>

<Insert Date and Time>

<Insert Rules>

 

Just remember you're making it only for fun and not to persecute others that aren't interested but still want to fly their ships.

 

 

Seems like a cool idea I would probably come hang out for it. Ryuku he put T2 gunship is his "rules" so you could play your double torp Comet breaker/Dust maker. However you couldn't play double missile Jurgoran/Condor because it's probably too good for this event lol.

[tunewalker]

What about my double missile Comet??? And my double missile Condor???

 

And between with TT and LC you will get a ship with about 70% of the quad'n'pod burst. Far enough to burst down a Strike.

 

the point is LOW Tier, the Condor is to good. The Comet I thought was the T2 GS.

 

 

Edit: personally i think the T3 Bomber is to good to, but eh, at least 1 of every ship is a good thing

Edited November 24, 2014 by tunewalker

[Verain]

I actually think really specific rules will help a lot for nights like these. I think the ship list sounds fun.

[Ryuku-sama]

the point is LOW Tier, the Condor is to good. The Comet I thought was the T2 GS.

 

 

Edit: personally i think the T3 Bomber is to good to, but eh, at least 1 of every ship is a good thing

 

Then I just need a Comet with Slug to mess the event

[zaskar]

edit:// never mind. You're using that silly classification of ships list. Damn I thought that died the death of unremembdrance. Edited November 25, 2014 by zaskar

[RickDagles]

What about my double missile Comet??? And my double missile Condor???

 

And between with TT and LC you will get a ship with about 70% of the quad'n'pod burst. Far enough to burst down a Strike.

I almost forgot that the T3 Scout has TT. Yes that would be really powerful in this meta. Maybe too powerful.

 

 

Honestly guys organizing an event is really easy for something like this.

Yes, but having a 'name brand' host like yourself would very much increase the chances of success.

 

 

Then I just need a Comet with Slug to mess the event

Comet with slug would be pretty balanced I think. It doesn't have the extra missile break or ion railgun so it would be a lot less effective, especially against Strikes.

 

 

edit:// never mind. You're using that silly classification of ships list. Damn I thought that died the death of unremembdrance.

It's just easier than typing out both names for each ship. But yea for this post I should probably make it more clear.

[Verain]

edit:// never mind. You're using that silly classification of ships list. Damn I thought that died the death of unremembdrance.

 

Specifically, he's using a list of ships and then using "low tier" to refer to them- generally with some accuracy, I might add. I think the list of ships is interesting for sure.

[Verain]

It's just easier than typing out both names for each ship. But yea for this post I should probably make it more clear.

 

No, Zask isn't objecting to type names. That's what everyone calls them. He doesn't like the idea of breaking the ships into tiers- even though it has some merit, it also has a lot of dangers. Still, you've actually made a list- type 1 strike, type 2 strike, etc.

 

I don't think you have to sweat TT on the Type 3 Scout, by the way. TT plus thermite can be hilarious, but it's definitely not overpowered. Plus, if you want to go to the component level, then why hate on the flashfire? At that point you may as well just say which components on which ships are allowed. If you stick to ship types, then just do that IMO.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Verain

[zaskar]

No, Zask isn't objecting to type names. That's what everyone calls them. He doesn't like the idea of breaking the ships into tiers- even though it has some merit, it also has a lot of dangers. Still, you've actually made a list- type 1 strike, type 2 strike, etc.

 

I don't think you have to sweat TT on the Type 3 Scout, by the way. TT plus thermite can be hilarious, but it's definitely not overpowered. Plus, if you want to go to the component level, then why hate on the flashfire? At that point you may as well just say which components on which ships are allowed. If you stick to ship types, then just do that IMO.

 

Verain and I babbled for an hour on an off about that list when it was a thing. The tier list will only do harm overall; pilots that might do very well in one of these "tiered 3" ships may never take the time to try it out and fall in love because some arbitrary list says it stinks.

 

Unlike pretty much every other PVP game, for the most part, every ship has something to offer someone. Personal taste and play style actually matter. Discounting a ship as less, is like saying left handed people are not as good at something as right handed people. Well, there are scissors, but we won't talk about that. Better yet, that women can't do the same things as men. Do not bring up standing up to pee!

[Drakkolich]

Verain and I babbled for an hour on an off about that list when it was a thing. The tier list will only do harm overall; pilots that might do very well in one of these "tiered 3" ships may never take the time to try it out and fall in love because some arbitrary list says it stinks.

 

Unlike pretty much every other PVP game, for the most part, every ship has something to offer someone. Personal taste and play style actually matter. Discounting a ship as less, is like saying left handed people are not as good at something as right handed people. Well, there are scissors, but we won't talk about that. Better yet, that women can't do the same things as men. Do not bring up standing up to pee!

 

You do realise when we say "Type 3 Scout" all that means is Bloodmark/Spearpoint, it's called that because it was the 3rd scout to come out.

 

T1 Strike is just a name so we don't have to say Rycer/Starguard, there is no ranking of the ships at all in these names.

[Verain]

The "Type" nomenclature is fine by Zask I'm pretty sure- the title is "low tier wars". I do think that "low tier" is accurate and descriptive, and I think tune nailed the order 100% in his list. But I also agree with Zask that the tier sort of thinking really can come to dominate how a game is discussed and played, and MOST of that thinking is bad ("Are these buffs enough to move the comet breaker up a tier? / You need top tier ships to play, means you are bad! / The devs dropped my main a tier, I'm quitting!"). But the decent part is the "low tier main" concept, because the players often evolve a pretty rich meta within that framework.

 

 

Anyway, I definitely approve of a match with special rules such as "only these ships or these component types are allowed", especially when that list removes the stuff that you feel obligated to play normally. The list as presented seems designed to keep a lot of variety. I wouldn't personally say low tier, but it IS accurate.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Verain

[zaskar]

The "low tier" is from this thread

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=770855

 

I hoped that no one would remember anything about it, classifications like this will just drive tier three and two pilots to only fly the first couple of ships ignoring the rest as junk

 

See what I did there?

[Ryuku-sama]

The "low tier" is from this thread

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=770855

 

I hoped that no one would remember anything about it, classifications like this will just drive tier three and two pilots to only fly the first couple of ships ignoring the rest as junk

 

See what I did there?

 

Remember... I'm crazy enough to fly a Double Torpedoes Comet Breaker against one of JC's top Sheep I think I don,t care about UP/OP ships

[tunewalker]

The "low tier" is from this thread

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=770855

 

I hoped that no one would remember anything about it, classifications like this will just drive tier three and two pilots to only fly the first couple of ships ignoring the rest as junk

 

See what I did there?

 

I dont think this has anything really to do with that list after all there are 2 ships on it that werent "bottom tier" and I REALLY hope that thread does not get revived, it turned into something that it was never meant to be.

[RickDagles]

The idea of "Low Tier" was just to encourage the use of rare ships. T1 and T2 strike are fun to use but are completely crippled by ion railgun. The T2 gunship is lots of fun but gets outclassed by the other 2 gunships and generally has a hard time dealing with burst scouts/cluster scouts without DF available. And removing the bomber spam would just be more fun for everyone IMO. Edited November 26, 2014 by RickDagles

[Ramalina]

I think maybe what you're really looking for is a, "bad build," night.

 

Take all the worst components you can find on each ship and fly that.

 

The problem I could see is that unless you also restricted this low tier night to, "stock only, low tier," people who are die-hard fans of some of these ships and have them mastered would be going on rampages as bad as any battlescout or gunship.

 

A mastered Ion/HLC T1 strike is grossly overpowered for the proposed list, and I think you might be unpleasantly surprised by some T2 strike builds too, if they're flown by pilots with a lot of hours in them.

 

That said, I do think that a, "bad build," night could be quite fun, and quite interesting.

 

You could probably do it with a banned component list. BLCs, HLCs, Slug Railgun, Ion Cannon, Cluster missiles, Rocket pods, Concussion Missiles, Railgun Drones,TT, BO, Distortion field, Directional shields, Lightweight armor, Charged Plating, Large Reactor, Regeneration Thrusters, Wingman, Bypass, Running Interference, Concentrated Fire.

 

I suppose ion railgun should be on that list too, but then you wind up banning a ship, and not just particular build(s). Some ships would be forced into single components in certain slots, but other than the T1 gunship all the ships in the game can have a bad build in every single component slot.

 

It would give you a meta with heavy nerfs to burst damage, evasion, and durability.

 

It would also have people trying to figure out which of the bad components suck the least.

 

Edit: Repair probes, Repair Drones, Missile Drones, and Combat Command are all sort of borderline in making the proposed banned list. I'd give it a try with them allowed, and then ban them in a second round of the event if they made T3 strikes and Bombers overly powerful.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Ramalina

[RickDagles]

A mastered Ion/HLC T1 strike is grossly overpowered for the proposed list, and I think you might be unpleasantly surprised by some T2 strike builds too, if they're flown by pilots with a lot of hours in them.l.

 

I think the Bloodmark/Spearpoint would do just fine against this. There's no reason a T3 scout should ever get hit by a missile with DF and powerdive. The T3 scout with TT is basically the same as the T2 scout except less engines and no clusters or pods. So it should be able to outfly/evade the T1 strike just fine but with less burst damage. This would be a welcome change in my opinion since Strikes are supposed to be the offensive powerhouses.

Edited November 26, 2014 by RickDagles

[Verain]

I think maybe what you're really looking for is a, "bad build," night.

 

No, but you could go set one up.

 

 

A mastered Ion/HLC T1 strike is grossly overpowered for the proposed list, and I think you might be unpleasantly surprised by some T2 strike builds too, if they're flown by pilots with a lot of hours in them.

 

Nah, I don't think so. You think far too highly of the strikes, flying them against premades when you have no business bringing them out. Maybe you've left your experience with the other ships fallow while focusing strikes, I really have no idea.

 

An Ion/HLC T1 would be amazing to actually be able to play and contribute. It's a super fun ship capable of real damage, but it's countered by just so much.

 

 

 

 

If you want to set up some night for some other ruleset, IMO go do that. If it sounds nice I'm sure you'll have participants. You might even try going for detail- like "these components are allowed on this ship, these components on this ship", I dunno. It might be too fiddly to get down to the component level, and many players won't necessarily have the components in question, but that's the only downside really.

[MiaowZedong]

I think maybe what you're really looking for is a, "bad build," night.

 

Take all the worst components you can find on each ship and fly that.

As I understand it, the point is to encourage people to actually use the good builds we rarely use because the overpowered "broken" builds are better.

 

As well, it would use a subset of the meta that's far less unbalanced than the overall meta.

 

A mastered Ion/HLC T1 strike is grossly overpowered for the proposed list, and I think you might be unpleasantly surprised by some T2 strike builds too, if they're flown by pilots with a lot of hours in them.

Not really. It would qualify as one of the good builds in this meta, but would really have trouble dealing with T3 scouts and lack mobility and missile breaks, areas in which the T3 bomber (aka "the better strike than the strikes") outperforms it at the cost of some burst ability. Not fearing control by Ion Railgun and not being completely massively overshadowed by battlescouts would be a big boon to T1 (and T2) strikes generally, but the T1 strike only beats the T3 scout for burst potential and armour pen—in all other ways, the scout is superior.

That said, I do think that a, "bad build," night could be quite fun, and quite interesting.

 

You could probably do it with a banned component list. BLCs, HLCs, Slug Railgun, Ion Cannon, Cluster missiles, Rocket pods, Concussion Missiles, Railgun Drones,TT, BO, Distortion field, Directional shields, Lightweight armor, Charged Plating, Large Reactor, Regeneration Thrusters, Wingman, Bypass, Running Interference, Concentrated Fire.

 

I suppose ion railgun should be on that list too, but then you wind up banning a ship, and not just particular build(s). Some ships would be forced into single components in certain slots, but other than the T1 gunship all the ships in the game can have a bad build in every single component slot.

 

It would give you a meta with heavy nerfs to burst damage, evasion, and durability.

 

It would also have people trying to figure out which of the bad components suck the least.

 

Edit: Repair probes, Repair Drones, Missile Drones, and Combat Command are all sort of borderline in making the proposed banned list. I'd give it a try with them allowed, and then ban them in a second round of the event if they made T3 strikes and Bombers overly powerful.

 

The problem is some of those components are not obvious and cannot be verified in any way. Lightweight Armour? Regen Thrusters? The honour system only works when people don't want to lose face. You're not dishonoured if nobody knows of your breach of faith.

 

Your list is also debateable on a number of inclusions and exclusions, but that would be too much offtopic.

Edited November 26, 2014 by MiaowZedong

[Verain]

I don't really think anyone is cheating on stuff like that, or stock night. Any of the things where you intentionally choose weaker stuff has all kinds of things that can exploit it- for instance, you could have your friend queue with you on mastered non participating stuff, or you could secretly find upgrades that aren't obvious on stock night but that definitely boost your prowess.

 

My general opinion is that people don't do it. Many players don't participate, and that's fine, but I don't think there's a spate of people who want to PRETEND to be playing by the rules, but really not- especially when there's no penalty for just queuing into the participants and wrecking house openly.

 

 

But anyway, I do think that "play these ships" is a pretty solid way to do it. It's easy to tell who is not participating, for one thing, and it brings up the ships that honestly we all really like, but that just have a lot of other stuff going on. For instance, the Starguard has some niches that he's theoretically strong in, but in practice you should always be on a battlescout- you'll get to the fight faster, leave it when you want, burst vastly harder, and are much tankier. Even a given dogfight that you were effective at medium range at is a misnomer, because the battle scout would have had more time in the fight total, or less, as he desires, with his extra speed and efficient boosters.

 

So a mode like this seems really nice.

[zaskar]

The last one there was two people I saw that did not get it. One in a rycer firing clusters and one bomber that had interdiction mines.

 

BUT

 

Things changed, it was like someone said: "hey, yo homie yur an't stock, yo' (you know, people talk like that, really they do) and they switched back.

 

No names, no finger pointing. I chalked it up to not knowing the rules to start. It's not like they became threats because of the changes. but ya.