Gunship/Scout/Bomber Counters

[Gavin_Kelvar]

My thoughts are that my best bet is probably the Pike/Quell as described earlier in this thread equipped with HLC's/EMPs/Concussions/Charged Plating. My other option would be to go w/ a Clarion with Charged plating and heals, but I would lack the HLC's and thus would have to rely on getting a Thermite lock on someone weaving in and out of the satellite fins.

 

I'd say you might do better on the Pike with HLC/Protorps/Concs/CP. EMP is useful if you're trying to clear a path for allies but for yourself CP should provide all the defense you need to facetank mines. Using HLC (with range capacitor)/Protorp/Concs you, in theory, can fire on the bomber without ever getting within range of it's mines (assuming it's created a tight defensive cluster around the sat). Since destroying the bomber clears the mines too having purely offensive missiles will allow you to kill it that much faster.

 

Personally with the Clarion I've been favoring Protorps as of late. On the JC meta if the game's at all competitive you don't usually get the time to line up for attack runs with blasters so I end up relying a lot of missile damage to kill a bomber. Protorps are especially good in this case since they send a bomber's hull from green to yellow/orange in one hit which can cause less experienced bomber pilots to panic and make mistakes. Even experienced pilots sometimes leave their nest in an effort to kill you before you can launch another one (which again benefits you since they leave the cover of their mines). If they don't leave then you just continue launching protorps from beyond their weapons range and do so until they die. JC also has a tendency to have bomber ticks that use their mines as cover so initial blaster shots at them are hitting/destroying their mines instead of them which can make getting in blaster range a dangerous move (especially if they've used all their mines as cover since that can take a few seconds to punch through all while you're taking fire from their HLCs; if you have a CP build it's even more dangerous).

 

Thermites also seem to have a weird bug that causes more lock losses to occur than a Protorp under similar conditions.

[btbarrett]

Vs Heavy Scout Map

 

Scouts are popular and very strong, and because of this many of the top players have tuned their play on them pretty hardcore. A scout heavy map is one where death can come unpredictably, so the creation of safe zones is a high priority.

 

Scout: The dogfighting type 2 scout (burst, clusters, distortion) is the best scout build versus other scouts. I've also run a really obscure type 1 scout (lasers, sab probe, shield to engine, power dive) to harass scouts, but I can't recommend it wholeheartedly.

Strikes: At most one Clarion per team with repair probes- scouts make the strikes unable to do much compared to the other ship types on this map.

Gunships: The standard gunship build is already as heavily optimized to fight scouts as it can be. Other builds can be considered as part of a group strat. A type 3 gunship is pretty decent at defending itself here as well, and a type 2 gunship should be avoided as per normal.

Bombers: You want a few more than normal. Seeker mines, seismic mines, concussion mines, any drone you can rely on (if you have one drone in an area it should be railgun, if you can afford multiple a mix of types works well), all act to create a safe spot for your gunships to roost and your scouts to retreat to. The individual bombers might die to scout burst, so they need peels when a scout dives at them.

 

It seems to me that against scouts you have two main problems: they are maneuverable/elusive as all get-out, and they have they typically have very high evasion. This seems to present a problem in that it is hard to get a blaster shot to hit them do to evasion, and it is hard to get a good missile lock due to elusiveness. Because of that, it seems to me that the best ways to combat scouts are to hit them with ordnance that ignores/minimizes their strengths. Mines seem ideal, as you pointed out, but I really think clusters work wonders on scouts since they are easy to get a lock with and have a quick refresh so that it doesn't cripple you when they shake your missile.

 

The ship that I have been using lately to good effect (for me at least) is the Decimus/Sledgehammer. I find that the combination of Concussion Mines/Cluster Missiles really take away some of the Scouts biggest strengths. Also, since most scout builds have at least one component that ignores damage reduction, but aside from Cluster Missiles and Thermite Torpedoes (which you only ever see on Bloodmarks, and who is scared of Bloodmarks?) they have very little shield piercing. As such, Directional shields seem like a great component to utilize in an anti-scout builds. Couple all of that with the mobility that Power Dive and having a thruster affords, and I find that, aside from using another t2 scout, it has been my best counter thus far.

 

Edit: I have also wondered about running a super-fast shield recharge build on the Decimus w/ Turbo Reactor and the regen delay reduction for Directional Shields. You can get shield regen delay down to 1.2 seconds and a single Power Dive ought to buy you at least that much time.

Edited November 21, 2014 by btbarrett
More stuff

[Verain]

Concur in general, and this is why under my "vs scout heavy maps" my suggestion at the top is "a type 2 scout with cluster missiles", and my bomber recommendation is "you want a few more than normal".

 

 

But in the specific case of the Type 3 bomber, it's a mixed bag. You are absolutely correct to point out that the cluster/concussion combination is solid against enemy scouts, but I find that in the general case the ship has a lot of the fragilities of both bombers and strikes, just as it has a lot of the strengths. Still, I believe that this ship is pretty underutilized and that most players don't have it anywhere near complete, so there could still be some undiscovered country with component combinations we don't see much of.

 

Sanic has been running cluster missiles and interdiction drone on his. While the drone has a long cooldown compared to the very consistent mines, it lets you have a much better button against a good scout player. Whether the lack of mines would punish you too hard in a map full of ALL good players isn't something that we've had much time with.

 

So I do feel the type 3 bomber could be stronger than the "slightly above average" opinion that everyone seems to have, but neither do I feel solid recommending it yet.

[Verain]

Edit: I have also wondered about running a super-fast shield recharge build on the Decimus w/ Turbo Reactor and the regen delay reduction for Directional Shields. You can get shield regen delay down to 1.2 seconds and a single Power Dive ought to buy you at least that much time.

 

Lemme save you the time: it's bad when the strikes do this, and they are the only class it could even in theory work for.

 

My post here does QCS and DS:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7462767

 

Relevant numbers/conclusion (for strikes, who have slightly larger shields and proportionately larger everything else, so nothing changes except the numbers are universally a bit smaller for bombers):

 

 

"Directional Shield + Large Reactor:

F4 Shields: 2520

F1/F3 Shields: 2340

F2 Shields: 2880

 

F4 Regen: 103.5 / sec

F1/F3 Regen: 81 / sec

F2 Regen: 148.5 / sec

 

And Directional and Turbo?

 

F4 Shields: 2160

F1/F3 Shields: 1980

F2 Shields: 2520"

 

"If you take damage you aren't regenerating at all with either. If you regenerate from second 1.2 to second 3, even with F2 on, you've regained 267.3. That needs to happen twice to be beating large. If you had F1/F3 on instead, three times."

 

 

What needs to happen thrice is being allowed to regenerate from 1.2 to 3 seconds. If you get shot at 0, then shot at 1.5, the .3 seconds of regen you had is worthless- 24 points if you were in F3. Meanwhile, if you can avoid fire for like seven seconds, you are looking at the full delta between the two.

 

You can actually check to see if this is better for you. Simply fraps yourself, and watch yourself under fire. You could be in that theoretical group where directional is better... maybe. And of course turbo is worse versus railguns, mines, etc.

[btbarrett]

Lemme save you the time: it's bad when the strikes do this, and they are the only class it could even in theory work for.

 

My post here does QCS and DS:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7462767

 

Relevant numbers/conclusion (for strikes, who have slightly larger shields and proportionately larger everything else, so nothing changes except the numbers are universally a bit smaller for bombers):

 

 

"Directional Shield + Large Reactor:

F4 Shields: 2520

F1/F3 Shields: 2340

F2 Shields: 2880

 

F4 Regen: 103.5 / sec

F1/F3 Regen: 81 / sec

F2 Regen: 148.5 / sec

 

And Directional and Turbo?

 

F4 Shields: 2160

F1/F3 Shields: 1980

F2 Shields: 2520"

 

"If you take damage you aren't regenerating at all with either. If you regenerate from second 1.2 to second 3, even with F2 on, you've regained 267.3. That needs to happen twice to be beating large. If you had F1/F3 on instead, three times."

 

 

What needs to happen thrice is being allowed to regenerate from 1.2 to 3 seconds. If you get shot at 0, then shot at 1.5, the .3 seconds of regen you had is worthless- 24 points if you were in F3. Meanwhile, if you can avoid fire for like seven seconds, you are looking at the full delta between the two.

 

You can actually check to see if this is better for you. Simply fraps yourself, and watch yourself under fire. You could be in that theoretical group where directional is better... maybe. And of course turbo is worse versus railguns, mines, etc.

 

I may have to do just that and Fraps some game play. It had just seemed to me that I get into way more than 3-5 engagements per life and so I wagered I would have many occasions where that 1.8 seconds would be coming into play. I will concede that in a short time period, having 3 instances where you would have the opportunity to capitalize on that reduce regen delay is unlikely. However, over the course of a lifespan it may not be so unrealistic. I will concede that many of the occasions where you are regenerating shields it will be irrelevant since you will have enough time to heal to full, but thinking back to TDM matches I have had in the past few days there have been several games where a t2 scout was chasing me all over the map while I Power Dived and LoS'd him and tried to buy space w/ mines.

 

I will also concede that the amount regenned over that time seems paltry, but every point of damage taken by your shields save you a point of damage on your hull (depending on builds). Since shields are a renewable resource (unlike hulls, for the most part), it is definitely possible that in the long run you will reduce the amount of hull damage taken. Personally, I find that my deaths on bombers are often a sort of "death by a thousand cuts" wherein I take a bit of hull damage here and there until finally I get pecked to death. This is in contrast to, say, a gunship or scout whose deaths tend to come in short bursts (at least mine do). For those classes, being able to absorb a huge burst of damage is absolutely the way to go. I am not 100% convinced on bombers yet though...

Edited November 21, 2014 by btbarrett

[ALaggyGrunt]

Solution: base regen delay needs to be longer, so turbo is actually worth it. And/or the right talent for directional... yeah, nobody takes that for a reason.

 

Edit: Against bursty weapons, that's not such a bad deal. I can usually keep away from them for that long, because an angry battlescout is about as subtle as a whack over the head. Once I know there's one after me, playing keep-away isn't usually very hard.

Edited November 22, 2014 by ALaggyGrunt

[LordMatthewS]

Seems like good build to me.

[Altheran]

Solution: base regen delay needs to be longer, so turbo is actually worth it. And/or the right talent for directional... yeah, nobody takes that for a reason.

 

Edit: Against bursty weapons, that's not such a bad deal. I can usually keep away from them for that long, because an angry battlescout is about as subtle as a whack over the head. Once I know there's one after me, playing keep-away isn't usually very hard.

 

The longer regen delay is, weaker playing regenerative (strong regen, not fast regen) gets.

Quick-charge Shields, Shield Priojector, Regeneration Reactor... they'll all get weaker. And they're not exactly top notch...

Edited November 22, 2014 by Altheran

[Verain]

Seems like good build to me.

 

I doubt that.

 

Here's your post history since you stopped posting on July 21st. Your ENTIRE post history since that date- every word on all of SWTOR forums.

 

July 21st of this year you posted a bunch, and your last thing was...

"My friend also had this problem. :/"

 

Then you post nothing until 11/18.

Here's your post record there:

 

 

Guardian/Jugg forums: "I don't know about faster, but I would recommend the SW for you to play. I love the story for him..."

Spoilers forum: "I have to agree with this post..."

Suggestion Box: "I would LOVE to play on Kashyyyk!"

Cartel Market Suggestions: "Yeah... Sure... Probably won't happen. xD"

Cartel Market Suggestions: "More Imperial soldiers. Question: Are there any NPC decorations you can buy at the moment, and if so, where do you buy them?"

Star Wars Discussion: "The BattleZone! :D"

Star Wars Discussion: "No extra sub days. L("

 

With the exception about the question with imperial soldiers, there's no way this is a legit post history. These aren't summaries, these are YOUR WHOLE POSTS. Then today:

 

2:05 PM- Introductions: "I love this game too friend ."

2:06 PM- PvP: "I agree with the people above. :D"

2:07 PM- PvP: "The rancor isn't game breaking..."

2:08 PM- Crew Skills: "I, personally, never use stims and don't find them too useful... On the other hand, I may not find them useful since I never use them. :P"

2:09 PM- Crew Skills: "I know what you mean."

2:10 PM- Story and Lore: "I believe they can, as long as they don't go overboard with it like you said..."

2:11 PM- Story and Lore: "I love the warrior's companions the most by far! :D"

2:13 PM- Star Wars Discussion: "That... Is... Amazing!"

2:14 PM- Star Wars Discussion: "I agree with you. Star wars isn't some fantasy magic, it's Sci-Fi!"

2:14 PM- Star Wars Discussion: "Hahaha. xD"

2:17 PM- GSF: "Seems like good build to me."

2:17 PM- GSF: "More ships."

2:19 PM- Custserv: "Like others have said, selling it on the GTN is probably the best option. You could try to submit a ticket for support though if you wish."

2:19 PM- Custserv: "Thanks!"

2:19 PM- Custserv: "Sadly. no. :("

2:21 PM- Flashpoints: "I know exactly how you feel! Many times, I will be healing after a battle and one of the members starts a fight with a boss... :/"

2:22 PM- Flashpoints: "Well I can't help you, but good luck! :D"

2:24 PM- Bug Reports: "Yeah I noticed this too. Hopefully they will fix it."

2:25 PM- Off Topic: "I don't even know who they are... ;O"

2:26 PM- Off Topic "I have always wanted to be a video-game developer..."

2:27 PM- Suggestions "Yeah it would be awesome if they could increase the speed, but it causes issues in the game. Maybe they will be able to fix those problems sometime?"

2:28 PM- Suggestions: "I agree. She is SO annoying after a few minutes of using her..."

2:30 PM- Suggestions: "Hmm... I agree and disagree. It would be fun to be able to do class quests quicker, but it can also mess up the game if you never do any side missions."

2:31 PM- Cartel: "I support this."

2:31 PM- Cartel: "Yeah, Xia is 100% correct."

2:31 PM- Cartel: "I hope they do a black Friday sale where everything in the Cartel Market is 50-75% off. :)"

2:34 PM- Fan Art (there's a fan art forum?): "My name is Bond... James Bond."

2:35 PM- Fan Art: "I like it, but what is that thing under the Chiss's nose in the first one?"

2:36 PM- Sentinel/Marauder: "Not I!"

2:37 PM- Roles: "Warrior all the way!"

2:37 PM- Roles: "I like using the SW for damage..."

2:38 PM- Vanguard/Powertech: "Thanks!"

2:38 PM- Gunslinger/Sniper: "I agree with psik."

2:39 PM- Guardian/Juggernaut: "SW all the way!"

2:39 PM- Guardian/Juggernaut: "Go with HK if you want to kill things faster..."

2:40 PM- The Shadowlands: "What's an oceanic guild?"

2:41 PM- The Ebon Hawk: "Hmm... interesting."

2:42 PM- The Ebon Hawk: "I would like it!"

 

 

 

 

 

So, what's the lesson? The majority of your post is always your REFERRAL LINK. By bytes, this makes up the vast majority (80%) of what you are spam posting. By content, it is likely closer to 90%, as the majority of your posts contain no content at all. Almost all your posts are harmless posts agreeing with someone- you appear to legitimately ask the forum for something twice, maybe, and once you are curious about a picture that is in the OP, meaning you have not read past that. In many cases, you don't read past the title. By being uncontroversial and agreeing, you hope to gain a click on your referral link.

 

Anyway, I hope all the forums you junk up with your 100 seconds that it takes you to make your average of two meaningless posts attached to any vaguely active threads all report you for the spammer you clearly are.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Verain

[StrixHiraeth]

But again, a 1v1 fight isn't really a "counter". It's just a fight.

 

I pointed out to someone once that 1v1 really doesn't exist in GSF. It's the team that accomplishes things... "aces" can't do much at all without their team. I think the concept of "aces" is somewhat inaccurate... though there are definitely pilots I'd prefer to see on my team (or the other team--challenge is a good thing). I think a lot of pilots tune their ships with the idea of "I'm gonna get that guy (a particular pilot that they see as a threat) someday."

Edited November 22, 2014 by Ymris

[RickDagles]

Does anyone have any experience using a fully upgraded combat command T3 scout or T3 strike with LC or Quads against T2 scouts? 40% accuracy boost with wingman overcomes their passive evasion, but is the lack of burst damage crippling? I've used these builds with some success but I find the TT laser/pod burst damage is more effective even with the 5-10% accuracy reduction. Edited November 23, 2014 by RickDagles

[havokhead]

/bump