The Bias Conspiracy

[Silenceo]

Come one, come all! Voice your grievances about any Era that strikes your fancy, or their boons!

 

Once the slapstick is out of the way, it shall be time for us all to confront the 600 pound pink guerrilla in the room. Many of us are biased in our own ways, and this alone causes many misunderstandings and misgivings. The point of this thread, is for all of us to discuss the Era's and get rid of the bias's that currently exist, for all Era's, so that we can all see more clearly.

 

Obviously we will all still have bias's in the future, but I wish us to at least cut them down enough so that they do not cloud our vision, which causes us to become quite inflammatory. I also ask that we try not to ostracize others due to their own beliefs, it is quite rude as well as leaves a bad taste in my mouth should it happen in this thread.

 

Discuss...Civil like...

[MarcheseAMM]

I been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to figure out if this thread is serious or not... any help? Edited November 10, 2014 by MarcheseAMM

[Silenceo]

I been sitting here for 5 minutes trying to figure out if this thread is serious or not... any help?

 

Please stay on topic.

 

Which shall we address first? NJO or OR bias's? Perhaps even PT?

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm not biased!....Weeelll....ok maybe a little, but it's all justified, cause those I hold high opinion of are just straight bad*** and of course looking over the info for them helps.

 

Naturally I'm talking about non-Force Users, you guys can keep your silly Jedi/Sith! Although I do have some faves, but I'm not really biased on them...or anymore anyway, I'm more focused to the non-Force User side of things, because The Force knows there's too many Force Users peoples about.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[karadron]

OMG.....the only era people ever can argue well in is the PT one. All others are seriously problematic. The OR is the worst offender by far. Unless people are arguing about OR vs NJO then we should start preparing for a nuclear winter or something.

 

 

PS: Revan is the most overhyped character ever.

 

PPS: Surik is second.

 

[Aurbere]

I'd say I'm more biased towards the PT era. But that's only because I know more about it than any other era.

 

And I think that's where assumed bias is called, when people assume (rightfully or not) that people don't know what they are talking about. In my opinion at least.

[tunewalker]

There are no Power levels. All people from all Era's can fight on an even keel with one another, as long as they have the given feats to back it up.

 

 

Example......

 

Corran Horn.... vs Vitiate

 

Vitiate has been known to have difficulties with Known Saber Jokies and is NOT known for his ability with a saber. He is incredibly powerful with the Force and has a High Preference for Illusions and Force Lightning.

 

 

Corran Horn is one of the NJO's Higher Swords masters. Capable of keeping up with just about anyone in the Order in this respect. He completely lacks TK, BUT makes up for it with his own skill in Illusions (able to easily cast an Illusion on an entire town, of a massive Light in the Shape of a Jedi, something that isnt even remotely close to reality while also absorbing and redirecting an explosion) also he has nearly unprecendented ability with Tutaminis, (heard something about him getting 'stabbed' with a saber and draining it dry of energy and turning that into a massive TK attack)

 

 

With Horn's Tutaminis abilities and his own Mental defenses he could effectively make himself immune to Both Vitiates Illusions and his Force lightning and force a Melee Confrontation. While Vitiate could EASILY dominate him with TK, he isnt known for using those abilities often in combat. He was much more likely to use illusions and lightning, the Lightning of which would only serve to make Corran Horn stronger.

 

 

 

Corran Horn Vs Revan... on the other hand, falls squarly into Revans preference for telekenetically hurling objects while conducting a saber combat. His combined skill with a blade and TK abilities would likely quickly put Corran Horn on his back foot, while Horn may be able to defend himself for a short time, ultimately 1v1 Corran would fall.

 

 

As we saw in Episode 3 with Anakin and Obi-wan vs Dooku, and then Later Anakin vs Obi-wan, or with Windu vs Sidious and Later Yoda Vs Sidious, its never as easy as One person is more powerful then another so they win.

 

Dooku beat Obi-wan, but Anakin beat Dooku, but Obi-wan Beat Anakin, different people different skill sets, different mentalities, different situations, power is only an EXTREMELY small portion of the outcome.

 

Yoda is the "better blade master" then Windu, but Windu faired better against Sidious in saber combat then Yoda did. Again its only 1 factor.

 

 

(I am truthfully biased towards GE, and NJO era's, also I think I give more credit to the average BLANK than most. The average Jedi, the Average Mando, the Average Soldier. The every day man is still skilled. Sometimes they just have stupid deaths Like Sidious) (IE The gaurds killed at the start of the Decieved Trailer, they COULD actually have been a threat with their training, but PiS got in their way)

 

Edit: another great example of "random people" getting owned is

The Start... you know those guys were Awesome, they just never got the chance to show it. Edited November 10, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

(IE The gaurds killed at the start of the Decieved Trailer, they COULD actually have been a threat with their training, but PiS got in their way)

 

Ehh....Malgus was just too powerful for them and essentially blitzed them with his ability before they could react, wasn't really much PIS there as I see it anyway.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Ehh....Malgus was just too powerful for them and essentially blitzed them with his ability before they could react, wasn't really much PIS there.

 

Except I think they got much closer then they REALLY had to, or could have waited in the shadows and sniped him later or something. Still its my main example of random soldiers and no names dieing when for all we know they could have been just as good as some one like Wedge, Or Jace, or Boba Fett or something.

[Selenial]

An odd occurrence has happened regarding the Kotor Era.

 

Too many people took game mechanics and fanboyness too far, and put Revan on Sidious tier and Malak on Vader. This led to most of the hardcore fans, myself included, hating and underrating Revan drastically. So many people remember this And hate the characters because of it, that's its gone from one of the most overhyped eras to the most underrated one.

 

People are now of this ridiculous belief that Revan cannot be even close to Windu or other characters... Cause reasons? The most powerful Jedi pre-Yoda, cannot be more powerful than most council members in the eyes of a lot of people nowadays.

 

You post feats, and people have this odd Idea that it's acceptable to disregard them because "it's Revan, so if has to be out of context."

 

So again, the Kotor era becomes underrated.

 

Then there's the NJO, the most overrated era on these boards by incredible degree. Not necessarily on force users, but Tacticians, pilots and non-force using fighters. An example being that GE royal guard > Sith Emperors guard because "GE IS BETTER MMM***?"

 

The tactician one is the worst however.

 

There's also a lot of hype surrounding the PT trilogy, basically that movie characters get overrated. Honestly I think Windu is one of the most overrated characters in the mythos, but I'll be defending that position soon enough and don't want to post it twice.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Except I think they got much closer then they REALLY had to, or could have waited in the shadows and sniped him later or something. Still its my main example of random soldiers and no names dieing when for all we know they could have been just as good as some one like Wedge, Or Jace, or Boba Fett or something.

 

True....although yeah, was right, in the Decieved novel, Malgus amped up his speed, so he did blitz them.

 

 

The three guards spread out into an arc as they approached him, their movements cautious, blaster rifles ready. The entrance to the Temple, a fifteen-meter-tall opening in the edifice’s facade, loomed behind them.

 

“Who are you?” the guard asked.

 

The last word hung in the air, frozen in time, as Malgus drew on the Force and augmented his speed. The hilt of his lightsaber filled his hand and its red line split the air. He crosscut the guard before him, putting a black canyon in his chest, continued the swing through the guard on his left, and with his left hand used a blast of power to drive the third guard into the Temple wall hard enough to crush bones and kill him.

 

Malgus felt the sudden surge of terror in the two soldiers up on the ledge to his left, felt them take aim in sweaty hands, start to squeeze triggers. He flung his lightsaber at them, guided it with the Force in a flickering red arc that cut both of them down, then recalled the blade to his hand. He deactivated it and hung it from his belt.

[Wolfninjajedi]

. An example being that GE royal guard > Sith Emperors guard because "GE IS BETTER MMM***?"

.

 

It's not that, it's actually true due to evidence showing that Palps Guards are superior to Vitiate's Guard, due to way more information on the former rather than the latter, this only differs if including the amp that Vitiate's Guard would get.

 

But without that, Palps Guard has shown to be superior to Vitiate's based on information provided.

 

Now unless the Encylopedia says more, the only info that I know of comes from their small codex blurb, which compared to Palps Guard information isn't that extensive.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

OMG.....the only era people ever can argue well in is the PT one. All others are seriously problematic. The OR is the worst offender by far. Unless people are arguing about OR vs NJO then we should start preparing for a nuclear winter or something.

 

 

PS: Revan is the most overhyped character ever.

 

PPS: Surik is second.

 

 

 

Honestly I think this is the closest to truth I have seen. Though I am SOMEWHAT, inclined to agree with Sel on the whole "GE and NJO get to much Tactician credit". I dont know that they get to much credit, as much as other era's honestly dont get enough. I would put Revan tactically potentially on par with people like Jan Dodonna, Garm Bel and maybe Wedge, on Par with Anakin definately tactically. Pilots its honestly hard to call since we dont know many dedicated Pilots in OR era. They just fail to focus on fighters. To me thats a bit of a crying shame, since if people HAVENT been able to tell I have a very large obsession with space battles and ships/ ship classes and the like. Potentially an unhealthy obsession. I think I need to go play some more GSF be back later.

Edited November 10, 2014 by tunewalker

[Rhyltran]

There are no Power levels. All people from all Era's can fight on an even keel with one another, as long as they have the given feats to back it up.

 

 

Example......

 

Corran Horn.... vs Vitiate

 

Vitiate has been known to have difficulties with Known Saber Jokies and is NOT known for his ability with a saber. He is incredibly powerful with the Force and has a High Preference for Illusions and Force Lightning.

 

 

Corran Horn is one of the NJO's Higher Swords masters. Capable of keeping up with just about anyone in the Order in this respect. He completely lacks TK, BUT makes up for it with his own skill in Illusions (able to easily cast an Illusion on an entire town, of a massive Light in the Shape of a Jedi, something that isnt even remotely close to reality while also absorbing and redirecting an explosion) also he has nearly unprecendented ability with Tutaminis, (heard something about him getting 'stabbed' with a saber and draining it dry of energy and turning that into a massive TK attack)

 

 

With Horn's Tutaminis abilities and his own Mental defenses he could effectively make himself immune to Both Vitiates Illusions and his Force lightning and force a Melee Confrontation. While Vitiate could EASILY dominate him with TK, he isnt known for using those abilities often in combat. He was much more likely to use illusions and lightning, the Lightning of which would only serve to make Corran Horn stronger.

 

 

 

Corran Horn Vs Revan... on the other hand, falls squarly into Revans preference for telekenetically hurling objects while conducting a saber combat. His combined skill with a blade and TK abilities would likely quickly put Corran Horn on his back foot, while Horn may be able to defend himself for a short time, ultimately 1v1 Corran would fall.

 

 

As we saw in Episode 3 with Anakin and Obi-wan vs Dooku, and then Later Anakin vs Obi-wan, or with Windu vs Sidious and Later Yoda Vs Sidious, its never as easy as One person is more powerful then another so they win.

 

Dooku beat Obi-wan, but Anakin beat Dooku, but Obi-wan Beat Anakin, different people different skill sets, different mentalities, different situations, power is only an EXTREMELY small portion of the outcome.

 

Yoda is the "better blade master" then Windu, but Windu faired better against Sidious in saber combat then Yoda did. Again its only 1 factor.

 

 

(I am truthfully biased towards GE, and NJO era's, also I think I give more credit to the average BLANK than most. The average Jedi, the Average Mando, the Average Soldier. The every day man is still skilled. Sometimes they just have stupid deaths Like Sidious) (IE The gaurds killed at the start of the Decieved Trailer, they COULD actually have been a threat with their training, but PiS got in their way)

 

Edit: another great example of "random people" getting owned is

The Start... you know those guys were Awesome, they just never got the chance to show it.

 

No, your dooku example only works for people who are at least close to another where styles that counter their abilities matter. Obi Wan Kenobi was the best Soresu user the Jedi order has ever seen. He was no slouch. The problem is that Makaashi is a good counter to it. As for him beating Anakin? He knew Anakin's styles and abilities better than anyone. We also saw him try to force push Anakin with Anakin doing the same. They both hurled backwards the same number of feet. In other words, Anakin was equal in power to Obi Wan Kenobi. Power matters.

 

Corran Horn is nowhere strong enough to fight Vitiate and most enemies would be destroyed by Luke Skywalker. Who created an illusion of an entire star fleet, capable of moving fast than the eye can see, re-building an entire temple with the force then tearing it apart, etc. There's no way most characters can contend with him. Power levels are a very real thing. Do you remember what Yoda stated to Obi Wan when he asked to face Sidious himself? "You're not powerful enough." he used the words "Powerful." this is important wording. It wasn't experience, it wasn't lack of skill, Obi Wan simply did not have the power to contend with Sidious.

 

Remember when Sidious sliced through the other Jedi council members before fighting Windu? Lucas stated that he slowed down the Jedi's speed so the audience would know what was going on. Sidious was so quick they didn't even have time to react. The only one with the speed and skill to keep up with him was Windu in that room. They could not fight equally with him and they too were masters. Just because someone is master level does not mean they can fight on equal footing with someone else. If Luke went back and fought Obi Wan Kenobi he could destroy him by pointing if he desired.

[Beniboybling]

I agree with the above, power is ultimately the most important factor in any one confrontation, and skill is in the end simply a measure of how much power you can bring to bear, and how effectively you can wield it.

 

Yes weaknesses can be exploited, and innate abilities can help some individuals unlock their full potential in certain fields. But how well they can be exploited and how effective those innate abilities are is determined again by power.

 

On this basis, the SIth Emperor would obliterate Horn. Yes his Tutanimis is impressive but he simply isn't strong enough to absorb the Emperor's power and redirect it, he would be overwhelmed and destroyed. All Horn has shown is the ability to absorb energies anyone of his power would be capable of absorbing, but with such little excess i.e. waste product, that he can redirect it into extremely potent attacks. It does not mean he can absorb anything.

[Beniboybling]

An odd occurrence has happened regarding the Kotor Era.

 

Too many people took game mechanics and fanboyness too far, and put Revan on Sidious tier and Malak on Vader. This led to most of the hardcore fans, myself included, hating and underrating Revan drastically. So many people remember this And hate the characters because of it, that's its gone from one of the most overhyped eras to the most underrated one.

 

People are now of this ridiculous belief that Revan cannot be even close to Windu or other characters... Cause reasons? The most powerful Jedi pre-Yoda, cannot be more powerful than most council members in the eyes of a lot of people nowadays.

 

You post feats, and people have this odd Idea that it's acceptable to disregard them because "it's Revan, so if has to be out of context."

 

Seriously though, this. I suggest that once 3.0 is released we undergo a reassessment of his abilities.

[Beniboybling]

Personally I find it difficult to rate the NJO and post-ROTJ in general because all my knowledge of it is second hand. I hear a lot of amazing things about this era which I am not inclined to believe because it just makes it seem so special.

 

I also feel the TOR era is underrated often due to lack of detailed information.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

 

I also feel the TOR era is underrated often due to lack of detailed information.

 

Which is the problem.

[Beniboybling]

Which is the problem.

Indeed, for because of that people assume they are unskilled.

[StarSquirrel]

Indeed, for because of that people assume they are unskilled.

 

No, they haven't displayed any skill for us to assume they are. Why must we take assumptions over evidence just because it suits the disparity in material? Now if the 1-2 feats of a OR character are actually better than the 6-7 of the NJO character then we can talk.

[Beniboybling]

No, they haven't displayed any skill for us to assume they are. Why must we take assumptions over evidence just because it suits the disparity in material? Now if the 1-2 feats of a OR character are actually better than the 6-7 of the NJO character then we can talk.

They are.

[tunewalker]

No, they haven't displayed any skill for us to assume they are. Why must we take assumptions over evidence just because it suits the disparity in material? Now if the 1-2 feats of a OR character are actually better than the 6-7 of the NJO character then we can talk.

 

Basically this. Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. If we are assuming a character is more powerful because they lack evidence then we are screwing up. Also we know game mechanics are not canon, this also includes a lot of random spawns (IE Meetra's Traya's Academy Feat, those are Mobs in a game, and by that extension a game mechanic in and of themselves, we know she went through the Academy but no numbers were given, and the numbers in game are just a game mechanic thus that Feat is unquantifiable, her "Beating Sion Multiple times" is a game mechanic, its much more likely there was only 1 fight and during that fight they had all of those conversations WHILE trading blows rather then stopping and starting and stopping and starting. Think Luke vs Vader Episode VI, if it were a game mechanic Luke would take Vader down to 0 between every conversation, that was essentially what happened with Sion vs Meetra, so is Force Elightenment, and moving meditation basically all that stuff was game mechanics...... basically if she wasnt capable of it in Source books or Revan Novel, she probably wasnt ever truly capable of it)

 

 

Also, believe it or not, I put Malak above Traya and Sion. Malak may not be as strong as Reborn Revan, but we know he was very strong and was a challenge for Revan, Meetra we know is weaker then Revan, we also know that Meetra had around the same difficulty with Traya and Sion as Revan had with Malak, if not having an easier time with them. When I REALLY think about it, I might put Malak VERY near Meetra to begin with. I dont think Malak gets the credit he deserves honestly. We hear so much about Revan, and Meetra, and Traya and so Forth, but Malak was no slouch by comparison to them either, he was a very real threat to Revan at the end of KoToR.

Edited November 10, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

They are.

Sad part is, and I'm assuming you're referring to Revan, they haven't been shown to be. If you don't mind explaining how Revan's feats are superior to Nek's (without using a blanket statement) it'd be most appreciated.

 

But that is a discussion for the other thread.

Edited November 10, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

I think the easiest era to discuss is the PT era. Most characters are well established, we know a great deal about even minor characters, and there is a pretty firmly established power hierarchy in the era.

 

It's also, as far as I can tell, one of the least tense eras between other eras in recent times. So let's talk about the PT era more!

[Beniboybling]

Sad part is, and I'm assuming you're referring to Revan, they haven't been shown to be. If you don't mind explaining how Revan's feats are superior to Nek's (without using a blanket statement) it'd be most appreciated.

 

But that is a discussion for the other thread.

Well you never replied so I assume you must have missed this:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7787477&postcount=268

 

Feel free to respond over in the Kaggath.

 

P.S. Looking at the bigger picture =/= blanket statement lawls.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Beniboybling