What I think should be done about the concerns about the DPS drop....

[TACeMossie]

Reno, I've always counted you as one of the 5 dedicated Bioware apologists but you really are giving Infernixx a run for his money and while I admire your dedication, your missing the point of what they are doing entirely. By causing said changes, they are deliberately trying to drag out the relevance of older content by squishing everyone's DPS..... example: to run DF lets say, for it to be faceroll time you need peeps min/maxed in 186 gear at level 55..... to do the same thing post 3.0 your going to need lvl 60 peeps in min/maxed 196? gear because the awful truth is Bioware just doesn't have the manpower/resources or the go ahead from EA to develop quality upper level content that the player base really wants. Which is why we get mini-game things like GSF, Strongholds and what not that require NO voice acting, NO companion interactions, NO individual class story because BW either can't or won't expand those areas.

And no generic quests like Makeb that are the same for every class on either side are not what peeps are wanting.... they want the individual stories... you know like the ones we leveled up with? Not, run Makeb 1 time per faction and you pretty much seen it all.

 

The world-first DF NiM run was done with people in Dread Forged gear with below average classes, such as AP Powertechs and so on. AP Powertechs are about what Bioware wants for DPS by the look of things (3.8k dps in optimized dread masters gear), so DF NiM will be 100% completable @ 55 with 180/186 gear.

 

Where I got that number:

 

Bioware wants Revanite gear, Optimized with augments, to do equal to 186s in current content. Note, we will see at least 1 more tier of gear during the 3.x content cycle, so DPS will be going up.

Optimized 186s is averaging 4.3k dps.

Tier increases have always been 2-300dps higher than the previous tier of gear until 2.8+ when DPS buffs got ridiculous and we had some cases of ludicrous increases (e.g. Pyro PTs going from 3.7k max in dread forged to 4.5k max in dread masters gear)

 

So I went to 4.3k dps, dropped 200 for going to 192s, another 200 for going to 186s, and another 200 for dropping 5 levels.

 

Im probably a little off though.

 

Anyway, for those worried about content rehashing, the podcast "Unnamed Swtor Podcast" confirmed 2 new flashpoints and 2 new operations. The operations were named "The Ravager" and "The Temple of Sacrifice".

One of the flashpoints was confirmed to have Shae Vizla in it, and she hasn't been seen in game yet so no chance of it being a rehash of current content.

[Halinalle]

On the other hand, it seems very easy for some posters to condescending wave their hand and dismiss every concern, objection, or complaint from every player, no matter how rationally and constructively presenting, as "complainers gonna complain", to lump the legitimate issues in with the freakouts...

 

...until it's something that bothers them.

 

I know how to handle forums.

I've played EVE, I've followed everything that happened on their forums from end of 2010.

 

"Gold Ammo" (was never planned)

Reaction:

 

Heavy Missile nerf:

Reaction: Tengu pilots said "Game is dying".

What complainers ignored: Other missile types were buffed at the same time. Causing their Tengu to deal 1000 dps with Heavy Assault Missiles instead of old, lame 700 dps with Heavy Missiles. Also Rockets became the "iWin" button for frigate PvP.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[ivanhedgehog]

I still don't understand what the big issue is. So, they are adjusting DPS/Heal/Aggro to a new level. What's the big deal?

 

I mean, seriously: What's the issue?

We have 10+ threads talking about how this is a bad thing. Arguments range from "Buying back our power" to "Oh, how will the current 55 content figure in to this. Will we be able to do it?".

 

Guys, they are adjusting DPS/Heal/Tank so that the current content won't be too easy. It will still be doable with the average level 60 gear. It won't become impossible just because the DPS is adjusted. They are looking into every single FP, and most likely, tweak the DPS that is needed accordingly. They're bringing the game to a level where the daily area is still soloable with ease, but the Ops is still not soloable.

 

 

 

I agree with the person who said that interrupts are another matter. The game is build around fast interrupt, and we'll have to see how that plays out. But for the adjustment: Can't people chill out and wait for the actual thing? Do you seriously think Bioware will make the current content impossible to handle? Do you think this company, even remotely, is stupid enough to do that? Now, don't come with any previous mistakes Bioware made. Do you really believe that anyone would say: "Guys, the content is impossible now. Release it?" "Yes.".

 

I support the DPS/Heal/Tank adjustment. The Ops (even from 55) shouldn't be soloable at all. For me, that killed the group gameplay in WoW. Many people went to ICC/Ulduar/Sunwell alone to farm the gear they wanted, and teamplay was of no issue there. I really appreciate it that Bioware wants to counter this phenomenon.

 

the 55 ops will never be soloable, even with level 70 gear. too many bam your dead mechanics.

 

I spent a year slowly working my gear to a decent level. I do not want to see that undone. at level 60, 55 ops should be fairly easy, other wise why bother leveling? I can tell you that I will not be going into df/dp for another year to eek out gear that will bring me back up to where I am now. there are plenty of games that wont treat me like a gerbil on a treadmill.

as far as will they release it regardless? yes they will, they havent shown a bit of concern for what the player base was saying in the past, why do you think they will start now?

[Max_Killjoy]

Wheaton's Law

[ivanhedgehog]

You say that like it's a bad thing. I want more challenge.

 

Advanced class: Shadow

Spec: KC

Gear: Mostly 156 with 146 4-piece set bonus, some 162 pieces, Veracity implants/earpiece, level 55 shield amp relic

 

Makeb: yawn fest

CZ: yawn fest

Oricon: yawn fest

 

What do you think will happen when I get better gear in 3.0?

I still remember the time I had to use healer companion to complete Area 2+ on Section X.

 

if you want challenge, maybe you should be doing challenging content, not dailies? have you even tried df or dp, even on story mode? you are asking for challenging content but you can only handle dailies? wow

[ivanhedgehog]

As I said: They might even do it to keep the rare mounts on their current level.

 

I'm not saying that Bioware hasn't done recycling in the past. All I am suggesting is that we do not need to start this argument based on recycling because we do not know at the moment. Saying they do it to make us run DP/DF again for 15 months would be the most negative ground someone could start this from. It implies a laziness from Bioware which, as far as I am concerned from the Cantina events, cannot see for the next addon. Eric commented himself that one thing they are aware of is the lack of PvE content which has taken over for the past 10 months. He said they are actively working to prevent that from happening again.

 

Thus, we should start this argument on a more reasonable level. If we start with the recycling argument we'd imply that Bioware has no capability to learn at all. And the argument would go around in circles. I simply think we should cut Bioware some slack here before crying out that they are recycling again.

 

balancing content around "rare" mounts so sociopaths can feel better about themselves is a really bad idea. if you expect rare mounts from 10+ levels before to remain hard to get, you are deluding yourself.

[Halinalle]

if you want challenge, maybe you should be doing challenging content, not dailies? have you even tried df or dp, even on story mode? you are asking for challenging content but you can only handle dailies? wow

 

I don't tank for randoms. Do you even know how much abuse I've had to go through in this game when tanking?

 

Ok... I consider it if they pay enough. By "enough" I mean a lot.

Healers: 1 million/character

DPS: 5 million/character

Marauder/Sentinel: 10 million/character

 

I know, not going to happen.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[ivanhedgehog]

I don't tank for randoms. Do you even know how much abuse I've had to go through in this game when tanking?

 

Ok... I consider it if they pay enough. By "enough" I mean a lot.

Healers: 1 million/character

DPS: 5 million/character

Marauder/Sentinel: 10 million/character

 

I know, not going to happen.

 

grow a personality and join a guild. no I will not pay some pug tank to join a run. especially one that has garbage gear like you. I do pug runs all the time and dont see the kind of abuse you are claiming. If you want challenge you have to man up and actually do challenging content. not complain that people treat you badly.

[Halinalle]

grow a personality and join a guild. no I will not pay some pug tank to join a run. especially one that has garbage gear like you. I do pug runs all the time and dont see the kind of abuse you are claiming. If you want challenge you have to man up and actually do challenging content. not complain that people treat you badly.

 

168: not possible without running HM ops

4-piece Campaign Survivor is BIS until 4-piece Arkanian

Arkanian set bonus: not possible without running HM ops + you have to be lucky to get token as tank

180: not possible without running HM ops

Veracity is BIS until Dread Forged (Yes, I know... I could easily get Black Market ones but with lower mitigation stats... Nope)

 

"Minimum requirement" for HM ops is currently full 180 on Progenitor.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[Reno_Tarshil]

if you want challenge, maybe you should be doing challenging content, not dailies? have you even tried df or dp, even on story mode? you are asking for challenging content but you can only handle dailies? wow

 

DF and DP on SM is a joke.

[ChroniKill]

168: not possible without running HM ops

4-piece Campaign Survivor is BIS until 4-piece Arkanian

Arkanian set bonus: not possible without running HM ops + you have to be lucky to get token as tank

180: not possible without running HM ops

Veracity is BIS until Dread Forged (Yes, I know... I could easily get Black Market ones but with lower mitigation stats... Nope)

 

"Minimum requirement" for HM ops is currently full 180 on Progenitor.

 

You can get a full 162 set bonus by just running Scum and Villainy or TFB on story mode. 168 gear with set bonus can also drop from DF/DP story mode.

 

Not sure what you mean by "have to be lucky to get the token as a tank" comes from - you have the same chance as anyone else.

 

On topic, I don't think anything should be done about the dps drop until it goes live. The PTS will be showing glaring issues, but until then we're only working with breadcrumbs and trying to make a loaf. We'll get to see more of the new disciplines over the next few weeks and perhaps get to see some parses (hint to the presenters on those streams ) so we know how much of a difference the drop will make. I suspect it won't be nearly as severe as the doomsayers seem to think.

Edited November 3, 2014 by ChroniKill

[Levram]

balancing content around "rare" mounts so sociopaths can feel better about themselves is a really bad idea. if you expect rare mounts from 10+ levels before to remain hard to get, you are deluding yourself.

 

There is no need for the Developers to reduce DPS to "protect" nightmare mounts, or whatever. They have consistently made each Operation, especially at the nightmare level, mechanically more complex than previous Operations.

 

You can see that by just the number of nightmare one-shot mechanics alone, ignoring anything else.

• EV - 1 <- everyone has the mount
  
• KP - 1 <- everyone has the mount
  
• EC - 4 <- some players have the mount
  
• TFB - 7 <- nightmare progression teams have the mount
  
• S&V - 3 <- nightmare progression teams have the mount
  
• DF - 10 <- nightmare progression teams have the mount
  
• DP - 15 <- nightmare progression teams have the mount

 

The above list is precisely why EV and KP are the only nightmare Operations that are farmed by average Fleet PUGs. The moment that a one-shot mechanic more complex than a "falling death" is introduced, the Operation becomes too difficult for an average Fleet PUG because one-shot mechanics can never be overgeared.

 

We are currently six gear tiers above EC nightmare's 150 gear recommendation and average players still think the Operation is too annoying to deal with. That is with only four mechanics that cannot be overgeared. Nightmare DF and DP one-shot mechanics are so far outside even the possibility of average players passing them that those mounts are, essentially, forever gated. Being Level 60, 70 or 80 does not mean the game suddenly starts playing your character for you in order to prevent you or your entire team's one-shot death.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Levram

[Halinalle]

168 gear with set bonus can also drop from DF/DP story mode.

 

It's also requirement for SM ops. PUG requirement.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[ChroniKill]

It's also requirement for SM ops.

 

No. It isn't. SM ops are 156. HM TFB and S&V can be done in 162. 168 for DF HM and 174(ish) for DP HM.

[Halinalle]

No. It isn't. SM ops are 156. HM TFB and S&V can be done in 162. 168 for DF HM and 174(ish) for DP HM.

 

In best case scenario: guild run where everyone knows everyone.

It is different for PUGs, especially for tanks.

 

For example: 55HM FP, 148 recommended

Tank has 146 set bonus, group kicks tank because 146 < 148. Even though DR and total mitigation from 146 4-piece Survivor is greater than from 162 armorings without set bonus.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[Kissakias]

168: not possible without running HM ops

4-piece Campaign Survivor is BIS until 4-piece Arkanian

Arkanian set bonus: not possible without running HM ops + you have to be lucky to get token as tank

180: not possible without running HM ops

Veracity is BIS until Dread Forged (Yes, I know... I could easily get Black Market ones but with lower mitigation stats... Nope)

 

"Minimum requirement" for HM ops is currently full 180 on Progenitor.

 

U are completely out of reality

I never run SV-TFB-DF-DP in HM, i mean never

I have oriconian by running only EVHM and the FPs that give elite and ultimate, BUT.......

NOT only with one char, but wit 3. daily

SO in less of a month i have a full set of oriconian to dress my main. (If have only 1 char, u'll just need more time)

Now with the new lowering DPS, we will just redo all that old stuff to reach our old level, also i heard that we will have better augs when 3.0 hits, so loss will not be so big.

BAD that they lowering dps since we play a linear game, and a linear game means progression in all its catagories, but its EA, and in all those years, EA show to world how bad company is, so we all knew that with a new good thing that we will have we will have and 2-3 bad with them.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Kissakias

[LordArtemis]

I was actually looking for a conversation about Bioware communication, not the issue itself....oh well.

[BuriDogshin]

I was actually looking for a conversation about Bioware communication, not the issue itself....oh well.

BioWare will communicate everything I need to know about 3.0 on December 2nd.

I can wait a month. Until then, I'm in the game stockpiling comms and creds - leveling 18 toons to 60 will not be cheap.

And I'm in the forums munching on popcorn.

[johnpickard]

I know I'm 7 pages in at this point but I couldn't agree with the OP's post more. I understand wanting to keep the story and stuff secret, but they should respect the player base enough to be more forthcoming with their intent to nerf us or simplify the game. Surely they have people monitoring this and know that a lot of the player base is very worried about this, and some have even gone from full excited about a coming expansion to being pissed that its even going to happen. You'd think they'd want to get out in front of it and at least try to alleviate the worries. I personally did NOT enjoy Wildstar at all, but one thing that is noticeably different is carbines constant communication as to what they are doing and why. Mostly it seems like DPS are going to get the nerf bat very hard. I know that DPS is just a number, but at the same time i have two issues:

 

a) as of right now i can clear 4/5 if NiM DF with my team, a level 55 zone. the morning of the patch if it all works out the way its looking, we won't have enough dps to kill anything in there, overnight. that makes no sense to me. Its like if you had to be level 30 to beat a level 25 class mission? what sense would that make?

 

b) I'm gunna keep subbing and keep playing because of my love of this game, but I worry that server populations will take a large hit IF the nerfs end up making it so people have to pay $20, level up 5 levels, and get a bunch of gear...... just to be exactly the same power they are now.

 

*cue hate*

[ivanhedgehog]

168: not possible without running HM ops

4-piece Campaign Survivor is BIS until 4-piece Arkanian

Arkanian set bonus: not possible without running HM ops + you have to be lucky to get token as tank

180: not possible without running HM ops

Veracity is BIS until Dread Forged (Yes, I know... I could easily get Black Market ones but with lower mitigation stats... Nope)

 

"Minimum requirement" for HM ops is currently full 180 on Progenitor.

 

you can get 180 gear just by running ev............plenty of places to get ultimates.

 

as for set pieces..run a tfb....a tank has EXACTLY the same chance anyone else has. say "hey guys, that is an upgrade for me, do you mind if I take that?" most groups will be happy to give you the stuff. I have been on runs where we pugged a random assassin tank and he got all of the arkanian drops, we were just running for coms.

 

run the starter ev,kp,ec.tfb,s&v quests..they all give mats to craft bis mods/hilts.

run sm df/dp they give arkanian relics

[ivanhedgehog]

DF and DP on SM is a joke.

 

but a run through those will set him up a lot better than he is currently.

[ScarletBlaze]

168: not possible without running HM ops

4-piece Campaign Survivor is BIS until 4-piece Arkanian

Arkanian set bonus: not possible without running HM ops + you have to be lucky to get token as tank

180: not possible without running HM ops

Veracity is BIS until Dread Forged (Yes, I know... I could easily get Black Market ones but with lower mitigation stats... Nope)

 

"Minimum requirement" for HM ops is currently full 180 on Progenitor.

 

 

 

You do know you can get elite comms by running Makeb, CZ and Oricon weekly right so it is very possible to get 168 gear without doing HM Op or even HM Fp.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[Halinalle]

say "hey guys, that is an upgrade for me, do you mind if I take that?" most groups will be happy to give you the stuff.

 

Not if it's guild run. Guildmates and their companions are priority.

[ChroniKill]

Not if it's guild run. Guildmates and their companions are priority.

 

You've a very negative view do every other player in this game. Any guild run I've been on has had a shared rule - the character in the raid has highest priority. Alt specs/alts/companions are lower on the pecking order. I've most certainly done runs with fresh 55 pugs joining a guild and they end up with almost all the gear.

 

To be honest, I suspect that those currently farming DF and DP NiM will still be able to with lower dps, it'll just take longer. Those challenging it will continue to, although they may not be quite as comfortable getting to the same point for a couple of weeks, but then they'll outgear it with 1 run of the new ops and it'll be fine.

Edited November 4, 2014 by ChroniKill

[Lotharofxev]

They have the wrong people doing PR. The math and dev nerds should be kept in a cage, and only fed a banana or two when the PR folks need info.

 

To draw a parallel - the Army has a new field coming out called "Information Operations". Basically a merger of Public Relations, Civil Affairs with bits from other existing career paths. As I told the LTC in our unit, "IO is not about telling the truth sir, it's about presenting a narrative."

 

The parent company, by allowing fan run sites (Looking at you Dulfy) to be the gateway for info has done the entire playerbase a disservice. Don't get me wrong - I love Dulfy, BUT, all her info should first appear on SWTORs site - somewhere. Furthermore there should be EXTENSIVE explanations about why the changes were made and more importantly WHAT THE FUTURE looks like.

 

When the face of your company OPENS with "PLayers at 60 will do the same damage as 55s now" and you don't IMMEDIATELY caveat that with, "BUT, we're adjusting MOB health downwards, we're keeping the linear TTK the same" you raise the hackles of the non fan-boiz.

 

When the overly excited dynamic duo keep talking about DF / DP, content that is a YEAR OLD, and more specifically NiM Ops, veterans like myself think, 'Who gibes a crap about that?'. This is not my first rodeo when it comes to these games. And yeah, I know MBs are cesspools of toxicity, but without a clear, concise and re-assuring message allaying fears - well, this is what you get.

 

Finally, you never, EVER, ask or allow a question you don't already know the answer to. ESO made that mistake (in regards to 'Veteran' content) and the result was a huge PR black eye.