ArchangelLBC Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ok seriously BW? You tried this crap prior to 2.0 and we pointed out then what a horrible horrible idea it was. If Taunts even have the POSSIBILITY of missing in a general situation, then fights that require timely tank swaps simply become undoable. You wanted the ops team to have the option to disregard taunts? Then make mob have a taunt immunity buff. THIS ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. My worry is that on bosses with "extra defenses" tanks will have an effective accuracy of less than 100%, and then miss a taunt and then cause a wipe through no fault of their own. Especially given the infamous "5% chance to miss on anything" crap that plagued resilience for so long, and combined with the fact that the 3.0 beta is closed, what guarantees are we being offered that we won't log in on day 1 of 3.0, get to 60, try to run an op, and then wipe because the tanks missed a taunt? How are you idiots this dumb that you are making the same exact mistake you made all the way back in 2.0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ok seriously BW? You tried this crap prior to 2.0 and we pointed out then what a horrible horrible idea it was. If Taunts even have the POSSIBILITY of missing in a general situation, then fights that require timely tank swaps simply become undoable. You wanted the ops team to have the option to disregard taunts? Then make mob have a taunt immunity buff. THIS ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. My worry is that on bosses with "extra defenses" tanks will have an effective accuracy of less than 100%, and then miss a taunt and then cause a wipe through no fault of their own. Especially given the infamous "5% chance to miss on anything" crap that plagued resilience for so long, and combined with the fact that the 3.0 beta is closed, what guarantees are we being offered that we won't log in on day 1 of 3.0, get to 60, try to run an op, and then wipe because the tanks missed a taunt? How are you idiots this dumb that you are making the same exact mistake you made all the way back in 2.0? Unlike 2.0, this time tank are at accuracy cap!!!! They have 110% Force/Tech accuracy. They won't miss their Taunt on bosses your DPS aren't likely to miss a lot of their DPS on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Unlike 2.0, this time tank are at accuracy cap!!!! They have 110% Force/Tech accuracy. They won't miss their Taunt on bosses your DPS aren't likely to miss a lot of their DPS on. Next you'll tell me that since resilience grants 100% resistance to Force/Tech attacks that that means that you will resist all Force/Tech attacks leveled against you for the duration. And yet for the majority of 2.0 this was not the case as many people noted that it had a failure chance. There are just certain things that should never miss. Taunts are interrupts are two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Next you'll tell me that since resilience grants 100% resistance to Force/Tech attacks that that means that you will resist all Force/Tech attacks leveled against you for the duration. And yet for the majority of 2.0 this was not the case as many people noted that it had a failure chance. There are just certain things that should never miss. Taunts are interrupts are two of them. Dumb of you.. Everyone in wzs roll at at least 101% F/T accuracy, normally 104% talented. Some even get to 105% if they use a lot of M/R. Learn your stat before talking dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Fred Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 This sounded a little odd to me as well but if you paid attention you would notice that this is more for PvP than PvE. That being said, I still don't like the idea of having taunts miss in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 This sounded a little odd to me as well but if you paid attention you would notice that this is more for PvP than PvE. That being said, I still don't like the idea of having taunts miss in PvP. As I said somewhere else. If the opponenet isn't a sin tank, under Force Shroud or Pyro Chaff Flare or some similar effect, Taunts won't miss in PvP either. Everyone has a base 100% F/T accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loadsamunny Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ok seriously BW? You tried this crap prior to 2.0 and we pointed out then what a horrible horrible idea it was. If Taunts even have the POSSIBILITY of missing in a general situation, then fights that require timely tank swaps simply become undoable. You wanted the ops team to have the option to disregard taunts? Then make mob have a taunt immunity buff. THIS ALREADY EXISTS IN THE GAME. My worry is that on bosses with "extra defenses" tanks will have an effective accuracy of less than 100%, and then miss a taunt and then cause a wipe through no fault of their own. Especially given the infamous "5% chance to miss on anything" crap that plagued resilience for so long, and combined with the fact that the 3.0 beta is closed, what guarantees are we being offered that we won't log in on day 1 of 3.0, get to 60, try to run an op, and then wipe because the tanks missed a taunt? How are you idiots this dumb that you are making the same exact mistake you made all the way back in 2.0? I didn't like the idea at first, but this sort of adds a new layer of complexity to tank gearing. Tanks now have to worry about stacking Accuracy on their equipment to make sure their attacks, and most importantly, their taunts, land reliably without the chance of a whiff. Accuracy used to be a stat that a tank could just ignore altogether and mod their gear in favor of more mitigation. Now, tanks will need to think twice about their gear and give some consideration to the Accuracy stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Fred Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 As I said somewhere else. If the opponenet isn't a sin tank, under Force Shroud or Pyro Chaff Flare or some similar effect, Taunts won't miss in PvP either. Everyone has a base 100% F/T accuracy. Good point, I was thinking it was going under weapon/range accuracy rather than force/tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silko Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 They did this before and there was an out cry by the tanking community. I really do not understand why they think it is a good idea to do so again. If they think that making one of the major tanking ability for each of the 3 tanking class reduce the cooldown of our taunts some how makes up for this, it does not. (For those who do not know about the taunt reduction abilities THIS will help educate you.) Sure I can reduce the CD of my threatening scream but too bad I missed my taunt on a boss who has a buff that lowers group acc and we wiped. As for PvP, heals don't miss yet we don't see people flipping out about that and saying nerf heals. If you really don't want taunts to effect PvP as heavily as it does then simply reduce the dmg reduction debuff taunts place on players rather then throwing a massive middle finger to tanks. After this change no one can ever state that PvP "balancing" does not throw a big *** monkey wrench into PvE like people do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loadsamunny Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 They did this before and there was an out cry by the tanking community. I really do not understand why they think it is a good idea to do so again. If they think that making one of the major tanking ability for each of the 3 tanking class reduce the cooldown of our taunts some how makes up for this, it does not. (For those who do not know about the taunt reduction abilities THIS will help educate you.) Sure I can reduce the CD of my threatening scream but too bad I missed my taunt on a boss who has a buff that lowers group acc and we wiped. As for PvP, heals don't miss yet we don't see people flipping out about that and saying nerf heals. If you really don't want taunts to effect PvP as heavily as it does then simply reduce the dmg reduction debuff taunts place on players rather then throwing a massive middle finger to tanks. After this change no one can ever state that PvP "balancing" does not throw a big *** monkey wrench into PvE like people do now. Again, Accuracy rating on equipment will ensure 100% success rate with taunt, IF the tank has enough of it. Accuracy rating can no longer be ignored for tanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Again, Accuracy rating on equipment will ensure 100% success rate with taunt, IF the tank has enough of it. Accuracy rating can no longer be ignored for tanking. Tanks are getting 10% accuracy from tank stance in 3.0, tanks will not need any accuracy from gear for PvE or PvP. This is primarily a PvP nerf to taunt capable dps disciplines, and a collateral nerf to PvP tanks (some defensive cooldowns will have the capacity to counter taunts even from a tank). Edited October 31, 2014 by Marb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silko Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I didn't like the idea at first, but this sort of adds a new layer of complexity to tank gearing. Tanks now have to worry about stacking Accuracy on their equipment to make sure their attacks, and most importantly, their taunts, land reliably without the chance of a whiff. Accuracy used to be a stat that a tank could just ignore altogether and mod their gear in favor of more mitigation. Now, tanks will need to think twice about their gear and give some consideration to the Accuracy stat. Allow me to tell you why this is both a incorrect statement but a statement that comes from a lack of experience as a tank. Currently Tanks have the hardest gearing. Every time you get an upgrade you have to rebalance your gear to keep your stat balance at equilibrium for your class. This means you have to spend more credits then DPS/Heals to properly gear your tank. Also Juggs do have to pay attention to acc. They are currently forced to pick up acc in skill tree in order to make up for the fact that the majority of our abilities are melee based. If our abilities miss we do not generate threat and the group dies. Assassins and Powertechs get to ignore this as the majority of their abilities are Force/Tech abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silko Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Tanks are getting 10% accuracy from tank stance in 3.0, tanks wont need any accuracy from gear for PvE or PvP. This is primarily a PvP nerf to taunt capable dps disciplines. I guess the part were some bosses in future raids will have a buff that will reduce raid acc isn't clicking with you isn't it? This is making the gearing for tanks longer and gearing out a tank already takes both the most resources and time out of the 3 archetypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Tanks are getting 10% accuracy from tank stance in 3.0, tanks wont need any accuracy from gear for PvE or PvP. This is primarily a PvP nerf to taunt capable dps disciplines. Not even. DPS in PvP will never miss a taunt in circumstance a tank wouldn't miss either. All this allow is creating bosses that will be tauntable but will have a higher resist chance making them different to tank. Otherwise this change isn,t a change. Bioware is changing the math behind a result. But we as player will still have the same result. THe truly worrying change are about interrupt and cleanses (mostly interrupt) Another interresting change is how AoE taunts are now across all AC threat drop for DPS. Edited October 31, 2014 by Ryuku-sama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loadsamunny Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Allow me to tell you why this is both a incorrect statement but a statement that comes from a lack of experience as a tank. Currently Tanks have the hardest gearing. Every time you get an upgrade you have to rebalance your gear to keep your stat balance at equilibrium for your class. This means you have to spend more credits then DPS/Heals to properly gear your tank. Also Juggs do have to pay attention to acc. They are currently forced to pick up acc in skill tree in order to make up for the fact that the majority of our abilities are melee based. If our abilities miss we do not generate threat and the group dies. Assassins and Powertechs get to ignore this as the majority of their abilities are Force/Tech abilities. A tank does not need to constantly swap mods. You don't have to dink and doink with Defense/Shield/Absorb scores to get maximum efficiency out of them. You can always plug any weak points with augments, but it's not necessary to tank Ops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I guess the part were some bosses in future raids will have a buff that will reduce raid acc isn't clicking with you isn't it? This is making the gearing for tanks longer and gearing out a tank already takes both the most resources and time out of the 3 archetypes. Talk about jumping to conclusions. Rob said that they have the capacity to give raid bosses higher defense/resist if they wanted to, he never said that they would do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 A tank does not need to constantly swap mods. You don't have to dink and doink with Defense/Shield/Absorb scores to get maximum efficiency out of them. You can always plug any weak points with augments, but it's not necessary to tank Ops. Until you get into NiM ops were your DtPS can get really high really fast if you,re not properly geared. Hell many tank I know are going with two or three bracers, belts and a few other pieces to switch around stats depending on the boss M/R ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Not even. DPS in PvP will never miss a taunt in circumstance a tank wouldn't miss either. You bring up a good point. I think their idea is that tanks will have a higher base accuracy from tank stance, so defensive cooldowns that boost resist will be slightly less effective against taunts from tanks? Edited October 31, 2014 by Marb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loadsamunny Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Until you get into NiM ops were your DtPS can get really high really fast if you,re not properly geared. Hell many tank I know are going with two or three bracers, belts and a few other pieces to switch around stats depending on the boss M/R ratio. Or you could, you know, mix your mods so that you have essentially "soft capped" all 3 at once. But you don't need to constantly swap gear just to get a slightly more favorable Defense OR Shield/Absorb score. Having more of one than the other is never going to make enough of a difference to matter. You're acting as if knowing when to trade off 50 Defense for 50 Shield is going to be the difference between wipe and victory in a NiM. Edited October 31, 2014 by Loadsamunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Or you could, you know, mix your mods so that you have essentially "soft capped" all 3 at once. But you don't need to constantly swap gear just to get a slightly more favorable Defense OR Shield/Absorb score. Having more of one than the other is never going to make enough of a difference to matter. You're acting as if knowing when to trade off 50 Defense for 50 Shield is going to be the difference between wipe and victory in a NiM. It's more like moving around 10%-15% of your stat budget (so about 300-400). Sure this only won't make or break a raid.. But it helps the heal if the tank takes less damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loadsamunny Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 It's more like moving around 10%-15% of your stat budget (so about 300-400). Sure this only won't make or break a raid.. But it helps the heal if the tank takes less damage. Diminishing returns makes this less than optimal. I'd rather have an equal pool of all 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marb Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Diminishing returns makes this less than optimal. I'd rather have an equal pool of all 3. Defense is almost worthless on brontes, but on nefra it's incredibly good. There's value in adjusting stats for extreme cases like this, but I wouldn't bother with smaller boss by boss variations. However, to be optimal for both nefra and brontes, you're going to end up with a fair few alternative pieces of gear, making optimising in increments for each fight possible, even if the difference isn't perceivable by healers. Edited October 31, 2014 by Marb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Diminishing returns makes this less than optimal. I'd rather have an equal pool of all 3. I suggest you read this awesome math thread from KBN. Then look up these graphics about stats actual DR. DR aren't step enough to make it bad to never stack more Shield than Absorb or more Crit than Power. Problem isn't DR. Problem is inequal value. 10 Power may adds 5 DPS to your parses while 10 Crit may add only 1 DPS. That's the real challenge. Figuring the balance between the stats. You could add forever any stat if you wanted (in the limited pool we have) but need to get a balance between everything you need. The same applies to tank stats. Defense, Absorb and Shield all have their optimal value depending on the exact composition of the damage the tank is going to go through. the stat curve is lready taken into account in these maths... And as you can see the difference between PvP, a low M/R and a high M/R fight is rather big Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silko Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 If you really don't want taunts to effect PvP as heavily as it does then simply reduce the dmg reduction debuff taunts place on players If you are reading this thread Eric can we please get a response on to why this wasn't done instead of the current system to be introduced in 3.0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 If you are reading this thread Eric can we please get a response on to why this wasn't done instead of the current system to be introduced in 3.0? When will people understand that this change isn't a change??? The combat team is changing the math behind tanking and taunts. The actuall effect will stay the same. Nothing changes. Nothing at all for PvE. And for PvP only time it will matter is against a Sin with Shroud up, a Pyrotech with Diversion Chaff Flare up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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