Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Drockter]

The percentage of the player base that has DF/DP nim on farm is so small, that this bs about putting out "too much" dps is a load of s***. They are trying to keep old content relevant, pure and simple. Anyone denying this is just burying their heads in the sand.

 

They may very well be trying to keep old content relevant. But... So? How is this a surprise?

 

There is no way that devs of a MMORPG can ever keep up with the content demand, it is simply not possible. No MMO can do it. Not a single one... Even the much heralded Wildstar backed off (no longer doing monthly releases).

 

The fact is, as max level players we will have 5 new levels... and within a couple days we'll be lvl 60, on multiple characters (more than likely), maybe a bit longer of a grind to get the latest and greatest gear... but certainly within the month there will be posts asking for more content.

 

It takes more than a couple weeks to develop the content... so they do need the old content to still be relevant.

 

That being said... I do also believe their official line... players are putting out more DPS than what was intended for the content. When you see people faceroll NiM content, yeah... something is wrong with the stats.

[BuriDogshin]

Unless the new ops are coming with their NiM modes in place still, then NiM DF/DP will likely be on the same level as the new operation's hardmodes.

 

And let's not forget there are several dimensions to an operation's difficulty: DPS checks you can solve with MOAH POWAH are only part of what makes Nightmare a nightmare. Just guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if L60 HM Ops require more DPS but less teamwork and less raid awareness than L55 NiM Ops.

 

Some people here seem to be expecting L60 to give them so much POWAH that they can ignore mechanics, like a bulldozers wrecking a sandcastle. Well, I won't mind if they are disappointed. I think it's fine if some teams that can clear L60 HM may still be unable to clear L55 NiM, just as is the case with L55 and L50 Ops today.

[Jimvinny]

Oh please, anyone with half a brain and sufficient ultimate comms can output way more damage than is needed for all content outside DF/DP NiM. Most classes could take a 25-30% hit to their numbers and be fine... so... no, sky not falling.

 

OK, so what you're saying is, its okay to Nerf damage because outside of the ops that actually have DPs checks, DPs checks haven't really mattered. OK then.

 

Just an FYI, DPs checks should ONLY matter in nim ops. There shouldn't be DPs checks in sm, and hm should be more about mechanics than DPs. So what was your point again?

 

Also, I don't think you really understand what a 30% drop in DPs would mean. That'd be back to pre arkanian DPs levels for most classes.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Jimvinny

[Quraswren]

The percentage of the player base that has DF/DP nim on farm is so small, that this bs about putting out "too much" dps is a load of s***. They are trying to keep old content relevant, pure and simple. Anyone denying this is just burying their heads in the sand.

 

Got that right.

 

There isn't some massive guild surge farming NM. Hell, you can barely get groups for HM much less farming NM.

 

As far as making relevant content, DF/DP is nearly a year old. Thats not relevant any longer, it's been done over and over and even if you only ever hit it in SM, it's still old content and gamers have seen it many, many times. It's done. To return to it after this long should have been for nothing but nostalgia.

 

Making sure 196 gear at level 60 is equal to 186 gear at level 55 is some pretty lackluster development in gaming. Making leveling a trivial joke just to keep 2 worn out, year old Ops around is some warped design.

 

Might as well have just left everyone at 55.

[BuriDogshin]

The percentage of the player base that has DF/DP nim on farm is so small, that this bs about putting out "too much" dps is a load of s***.

I disagree.

 

For example: a group who cleared all the NiM content was looking to replace a DPS and set a minimum requirement of 3K on a dummy parse. In non-optimized 80% 180, 20% 186 gear (with 168 set-bonus armorings), my Sorcs in Madness spec often pull 3100+ DPS on real bosses, using a pretty simple rotation. I have not parsed the setup on a dummy.

 

And this is with gear that is far from optimized for DPS: I just have a 4-piece DPS set (head, chest, legs, and boots) that I swap with parts of my healing gear to get the SB and necessary accuracy. So the gear has, for example, lots of Alacrity.

 

Clearly, it is pretty easy to get to NiM-capable DPS levels with the current gear, if I can do it with a gear setup like that and a simple rotation. Now if only I had the raid skills needed for NiM ... well, maybe in time those will come too.

Edited November 3, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[Jimvinny]

I disagree.

 

For example: a group who cleared all the NiM content was looking to replace a DPS and set a minimum requirement of 3K on a dummy parse. In non-optimized 80% 180, 20% 186 gear (with 168 set-bonus armorings), my Sorcs in Madness spec often pull 3100+ DPS on real bosses, using a pretty simple rotation. I have not parsed the setup on a dummy.

 

And this is with gear that is far from optimized for DPS: I just have a 4-piece DPS set (head, chest, legs, and boots) that I swap with parts of my healing gear to get the SB and necessary accuracy. So the gear has, for example, lots of Alacrity.

 

Clearly, it is pretty easy to get to NiM-capable DPS levels with the current gear, if I can do it with a gear setup like that and a simple rotation. Now if only I had the raid skills needed for NiM ... well, maybe in time those will come too.

 

If you had 4 DPs doing 3100 DPs on nim Nefra, no way you're clearing brontes. My group has 4 DPs doing between 3.5 and 3.8 on nefra, and we can't do enough to hit the percentages required between each hand on the final phase.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Jimvinny

[BuriDogshin]

Just an FYI, DPs checks should ONLY matter in nim ops. There shouldn't be DPs checks in sm, and hm should be more about mechanics than DPs. So what was your point again?

I'm sorry, how successful many MMOs have you designed? Clearly you are representing yourself as being an expert on MMO design, so you must have architected at least a couple that were successful, yes? Please tell us which MMOs you worked on, if they were successful, I'm sure we have heard of them.

[ChroniKill]

Just an FYI, DPs checks should ONLY matter in nim ops. There shouldn't be DPs checks in sm, and hm should be more about mechanics than DPs. So what was your point again?

 

Also, I don't think you really understand what a 30% drop in DPs would mean. That'd be back to pre arkanian DPs levels for most classes.

 

I'm struggling to see why your comment is an FYI. To me, that implies intricate knowledge of the developers' methodology. To me, SM should be no major dps checks and mechanics that can be cheesed through (either dps or heal), HM should be hard dps checks and tricky, but ultimately cheesable mechanics and NiM should just be dps checks, insane mechanics and wipes galore. Am I any more correct than you? Probably not.

Edited November 3, 2014 by ChroniKill

[Sindariel]

If you had 4 DPs doing 3100 DPs on nim Nefra, no way you're clearing brontes.

 

With 3k dummy DPS, they won't even get past phase 5 on Draxus.

[Quraswren]

I disagree.

SNIp....

 

You can disagree but you would more than likely still be wrong. I bet there are no more guilds that clear NM content is SWTOR than guilds that clear the heroic content in WOW.

 

The number is so small, it's damn near irrelevant in the grand scheme of the game. It goes that way for nearly all MMO's The number of guilds doing the highest content is always rather small and you can bet the number that has that same content on farm is even smaller.

[Jimvinny]

OK, clearly I'm not a developer. But based on past experience, especially with this game, that is how things have been designed. SM is about story. HM is about mechanics, NIM has checks on different bosses for all 3 roles. DPS get its checks in certain phases of certain fights, such as final phase of brontes. If you haven't been there, you don't know what I'm talking about. The number of groups who faceroll that fight are very few and very far between. Edited November 3, 2014 by Jimvinny

[BuriDogshin]

With 3k dummy DPS, they won't even get past phase 5 on Draxus.

Clearly minimum requirement to join is not the same as the team average.

 

And please try harder to read: I was talking 3100 on bosses, not a dummy. I probably won't dummy parse until I get an ops dummy in my Strongholds, my ship is too small a space, and the Ziost Shadow too long a walk.

[BuriDogshin]

OK, clearly I'm not a developer.

Ah, as I suspected ...

[Jimvinny]

Clearly minimum requirement to join is not the same as the team average.

 

And please try harder to read: I was talking 3100 on bosses, not a dummy. I probably won't dummy parse until I get an ops dummy in my Strongholds, my ship is too small a space, and the Ziost Shadow too long a walk.

 

Too small to dummy parse, OK there, hardcore. As I said before, 3100 on a boss means nothing. I do 4k on nim grobthok, our sent does 4.2. Means nothing against nim brontes.

[Jimvinny]

Ah, as I suspected ...

 

Way to completely disregard everything else I said. How about addressing my points instead of snipping to make yourself seem clever?

Edited November 3, 2014 by Jimvinny

[BuriDogshin]

I bet there are no more guilds that clear NM content is SWTOR than guilds that clear the heroic content in WOW.

 

The number is so small, it's damn near irrelevant in the grand scheme of the game.

And what, exactly, are those numbers? Any clue? I know that BioWare knows exactly how many guilds, players, and toons have cleared all the NiM content, but do you? Or is it just a "damn near irrelevant" number because that suits your argument?

 

Having run with a few of NiM raiders on alts they had not fully geared yet, I believe it is mainly skill, not gear, that differentiates those who can clear NiM from those who cannot. And that is entirely appropriate.

[Sindariel]

And please try harder to read: I was talking 3100 on bosses, not a dummy.

 

I disagree.

 

For example: a group who cleared all the NiM content was looking to replace a DPS and set a minimum requirement of 3K on a dummy parse.

 

Who should try harder to read?

Edited November 3, 2014 by Sindariel

[BuriDogshin]

Too small to dummy parse, OK there, hardcore.

• I play this game for fun.
  
• Parsing on a dummy in a cramped and ugly little hallway is not my idea of fun.
  
• Doing it on, say, the landing pad of my Nar Shadaa stronghold, on the other hand, would be much better. I'd even invite my wife and friends to join me, we can help each other find problems with our rotations.
  
• Until then, I'll just parse boss fights. And why not? I put out way more DPS than I need for HM.
  

 

YMMV.

[Quraswren]

And what, exactly, are those numbers? Any clue? I know that BioWare knows exactly how many guilds, players, and toons have cleared all the NiM content, but do you? Or is it just a "damn near irrelevant" number because that suits your argument?

 

It's probably similar to that imaginary so called large number of guilds you think are clearing and farming NM content.

 

It doesn't happen that way in MMo games. It's all across the board. We see it in the largest of all MMO's and that percent is very small. SWTOR is no different in that regard.

 

While neither of us have concrete numbers for SWTOR, you can bet it falls in line with other games similar in nature. WOW being one of them and the hardest content is not farmed by any large groups.

 

Having run with a few of NiM raiders on alts they had not fully geared yet, I believe it is mainly skill, not gear, that differentiates those who can clear NiM from those who cannot. And that is entirely appropriate.

 

That we can agree on but I'm also not silly enough to think a certain level of gear is not required either.

[Jimvinny]

• I play this game for fun.
  
• Parsing on a dummy in a cramped and ugly little hallway is not my idea of fun.
  
• Doing it on, say, the landing pad of my Nar Shadaa stronghold, on the other hand, would be much better. I'd even invite my wife and friends to join me, we can help each other find problems with our rotations.
  
• Until then, I'll just parse boss fights. And why not? I put out way more DPS than I need for HM.
  

 

YMMV.

 

All valid points. But again, your idea of what DPs is required and what is actually required seem very different. Its cool that this progression guild told you that a 3k parse is enough, but have you actually gone and cleared the content with them? You aren't really adressing my question. You seem comfortable with telling me my anecdotal evidence means nothing, while using your own to back up your wild assertions.

[BuriDogshin]

When asked to justify the claim that the number of guilds clearing NiM content is so small as to be "irrelevant:"

It's probably similar to that imaginary so called large number of guilds you think are clearing and farming NM content.

It doesn't happen that way in MMo games. It's all across the board. We see it in the largest of all MMO's and that percent is very small. SWTOR is no different in that regard.

While neither of us have concrete numbers for SWTOR, you can bet it falls in line with other games similar in nature. WOW being one of them and the hardest content is not farmed by any large groups.

Ah I see: you actually have no clue at all on how many guilds are clearing NiM content in SWTOR.

Instead, you make a vague and unsupported claim about other MMOs, then assume it applies to SWTOR, which implicitly assumes that SWTOR is no more or no less out of balance, regarding player DPS, than those other MMOs.

 

Sorry, but that's not even close to a valid argument. I'd rather trust BioWare's conclusion on this issue that yours: they have the numbers, and they have a greater interest in the long term health of the game: it's their jobs.

[Zoom_VI]

Got that right.

 

There isn't some massive guild surge farming NM. Hell, you can barely get groups for HM much less farming NM.

 

It doesn't matter if only a few are farming nightmare, you can see the DPS bloat with stuff like Hardmode S&V, seriously DPS check simply do not exist, because pulling the required DPS at gear level is trivial. That not how its supposed to work.

[Lotharofxev]

No progression guild regardless of whether they are doing NiM DP or HM S&V, ever discusses DPS checks.

 

No they do gear checks. However, you can have gear and still be a derp. You can also know your rotation and still not put out the required DPS due to gear limitations.

[Jimvinny]

When asked to justify the claim that the number of guilds clearing NiM content is so small as to be "irrelevant:"

 

Ah I see: you actually have no clue at all on how many guilds are clearing NiM content in SWTOR.

Instead, you make a vague and unsupported claim about other MMOs, then assume it applies to SWTOR, which implicitly assumes that SWTOR is no more or no less out of balance, regarding player DPS, than those other MMOs.

 

Sorry, but that's not even close to a valid argument. I'd rather trust BioWare's conclusion on this issue that yours: they have the numbers, and they have a greater interest in the long term health of the game: it's their jobs.

 

And there's the rub; in the interest of the long term health of the game, keeping old content relevant is a viable avenue for the devs. That doesn't mean its not lazy, or that players shouldn't be disappointed or even angered.

[BuriDogshin]

Its cool that this progression guild told you that a 3k parse is enough, but have you actually gone and cleared the content with them?

As anyone who has run with me can tell you, all the gear and DPS in the world won't provide me with the skills needed to farm NiM DP. I am just not there yet, and if I keep playing as many different classes as I do as often as I do, I may never be there. Jack of all classes, master of none may be my destiny. Which is fine with me.

 

I play SWTOR to have fun. I don't need to be great at it, much less one of the best. Just good will do fine.

YMMV.