Wherein Ellie rethinks her reaction to concerns over 12xXP

[SteelPiranha]

That's the problem with requiring group content as well; people that think they understand the game, that really don't, will be blacklisting people that simply haven't learned something yet, and then those people can't advance in the game. 12x xp didn't create stupid people in groups. It's certainly not helping matters, but it didn't create the problem, it's been around as long as people have.

 

^This. Forcing everyone into a bottleneck is just asking for a greifing paradise.

[Dimoxinil]

I admit it. Those of you that were concerned that with 12xXP people would level too fast and not know how to play their class . . . well I thought y'all were QQing about nothing. I mean most of us have leveled other toons - maybe not up to 55 but enough to know some basic DPS/Healing'Tanking skills right?

 

I owe you all an apology.

 

I ran KDY a couple of times last night and OMG I don't think most of my groupmates had any clue what to do. Do you want to talk about the group I filled in for who were at the end of the flashpoint who couldn't understand (even after I told them 3 times) that a DPS needs to hit the adds and not me who is a healer. How about the person building the ship that had no idea that there were clues to the puzzles so he just picked ones at random claiming he knew what to do. Or how about the second run where I had to DPS because the DPS was healing ME (remember I'm a healer). If I didn't start DPSing it would have been a circle-heals of ineffectualness. Actually a circle-heals might have been warranted as the group would scatter and pull mobs then try to run to another groupmate leading to yet another wipe.

Yes! Multiple wipes on KDY!

 

So I now agree with you. Maybe if this 12xXP only applied if you had a toon (maybe a toon in each faction) that had made it through Corellia then it wouldn't be so bad but if last night were any indication this 12xXP for noobs is leading to a lot of people who cannot play their class. Yes I said it! LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS!!!

 

0/10

None of this is related to class mechanics. 12 x XP or not would make no difference.

[Galbatorrix]

How many threads have you seen calling for xserver queues? Requiring people to sit in that queue for a week could indeed have a negative effect on their gaming experience, if sitting in a queue for a couple of hours a day is having a negative impact on players now. I'm all for people learning the game before they get to end game, but since the OP is here complaining about people not understanding the game, then turns around and demonstrates that their grasp on the game isn't 100% either, whom should we be lenient with? All Smugglers and IAs can take cover. Now, whether they'd want to is another matter, but since that ability is given to both classes before level 10, I'm having a hard time taking the OP seriously. It would seem that they don't understand the game 100% either, while requiring that others do? Am I to assume we can just, as the OP does, blame this lack of knowledge on 12x xp? Isn't it more likely that they just didn't realize that Gunslinger/Sniper are essentially the same class, while the ACs that come with Smuggler/IA are night and day from each other?

 

My Operative was 25 right around the time they nerfed Orbital Strike, my Sniper and Gunslinger were both 55 by then. So it's not like I'm drawing this conclusion from limited exposure to the ACs. While both are IAs, the ACs are completely different in practice, from about midgame on. Something you'd think one would know, if they're going to come to the forums calling out people about their lack of knowledge about a class. I mean, if we're going to be judgmental about people not knowing classes, shouldn't that extend to everyone, and not just "those people over there that don't"?

 

That's the problem with requiring group content as well; people that think they understand the game, that really don't, will be blacklisting people that simply haven't learned something yet, and then those people can't advance in the game. 12x xp didn't create stupid people in groups. It's certainly not helping matters, but it didn't create the problem, it's been around as long as people have.

 

 

Low level queue times would benefit as well because everyone would have to do those FPs at least once. Also, as far as black listing goes, that already happens thanks to people stumbling into high end content blind and causing wipes due to not knowing how to perform in that environment. At least my suggestion would allow them to learn these things in lower level FPs, where people are more willing to explain things. End game people just want to quickly get their dailies done. They don't want to reexplain basics every single day. And honestly, who can blame them? It gets old after a while.

[Galbatorrix]

Mandating group content to advance a single-player story is not a good idea.

 

Other games have done this and it worked out very well. I won't say the name again, because it seems like I'm prompting that game, but said game has a very grand and long single player story that has every single dungeon interlaced as part of that story. And at the same time, it is a grouping progression that gets players used to group dynamics and other things like boss mechanics as they level up. Since things get more difficult the higher the dungeons are. And then, in end game, you still get the occasional person who is clueless, but it's a lot fewer and farther between.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[hadoken]

Other games have done this and it worked out very well. I won't say the name again, because it seems like I'm prompting that game, but said game has a very grand and long single player story that has every single dungeon interlaced as part of that story. And at the same time, it is a grouping progression that gets players used to group dynamics and other things like boss mechanics as they level up. Since things get more difficult the higher the dungeons are. And then, in end game, you still get the occasional person who is clueless, but it's a lot fewer and farther between.

 

They were interlaced but it wasn't mandatory to keep going, actually. Or at least wasn't when I played. It wouldn't work in this game where if you stop the class story you can't just 'skip a quest'. You're done until you finish that part.

[Galbatorrix]

They were interlaced but it wasn't mandatory to keep going, actually. Or at least wasn't when I played. It wouldn't work in this game where if you stop the class story you can't just 'skip a quest'. You're done until you finish that part.

 

 

No, they're definitely required. You can't move on with the main scenario unless you complete the dungeon. The dungeon is actually a stepping stone in the main scenario. The primal trials were this way as well.

 

Personally, I think is was well done because the dungeons felt like a more integrated part of the world instead of just being side pieces like in SWTOR.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[hadoken]

No, they're definitely required. You can't move on with the main scenario unless you complete the dungeon. The dungeon is actually a stepping stone in the main scenario. Personally, I think is was well done because the dungeons felt like a more integrated part of the world instead of just being side pieces like in SWTOR.

 

I guess they changed things because I absolutely moved forward into other zones and was doing quests without having finished off that first 'kill the demon in the big room' or whatever that thing was. I don't even remember. Course that story obviously wasn't very memorable to me anyway, so I don't feel like I missed much. It's kind of a core part of my experience in this game, though.

 

Having stuff blocked off when leveling because you're uncomfortable dealing with PUGs is really just bad game design to me. And it sure as hell doesn't change anything at all.

Edited October 23, 2014 by hadoken

[robertthebard]

Low level queue times would benefit as well because everyone would have to do those FPs at least once. Also, as far as black listing goes, that already happens thanks to people stumbling into high end content blind and causing wipes due to not knowing how to perform in that environment. At least my suggestion would allow them to learn these things in lower level FPs, where people are more willing to explain things. End game people just want to quickly get their dailies done. They don't want to reexplain basics every single day. And honestly, who can blame them? It gets old after a while.

 

Yet, as we can see in this very thread, by the OP, we'll have people condemning a level 11 Operative for using cover. Since, at level 11, it's only logical to conclude that they might, given the lack of any real skills to do anything else with, we'll have people trying to explain how to play a 55 Op to a person that doesn't have the skills to even come close. Seriously, the lack of mechanics knowledge displayed by somebody complaining about others lack of mechanics knowledge in this thread is mind boggling. These are the same people, however, that a new player will be thrust into the queue with, and who could very well find themselves unable to finish their story missions. If you blacklist them from doing end game content, they can, at least, finish their story missions. If you block them from completing their story missions by requiring that they finish these FPs at appropriate levels, they'll just quit. You may feel that this doesn't have any impact on the game, but I assure you, it does.

[Ershiin]

Firstly, doing anything but story missions for the sake of leveling during this "event" would be noobish in itself.

Secondly, i've actually found groups to have improved recently at max lvl...

[robertthebard]

Firstly, doing anything but story missions for the sake of leveling during this "event" would be noobish in itself.

Secondly, i've actually found groups to have improved recently at max lvl...

 

My, isn't that judgmental of you. I have leveled 2 more 55s and have 4 more working. Added to the 10 55s I already had. I have no reason, or desire to run anything else in this event, since it allows me to bypass a majority of the content that, for two of these levelers, is irrelevant anyway, since they will be deleted once I achieve the goals I had in mind when I rolled them up in the first place; such as seeing a particular romance arc for specific companions. Once those arcs are completed, I assure you I don't have to fight to gear a second Jugg, or a third Consular. Thanks for your opinion, I'll file it appropriately.

[EllieAnne]

Yet, as we can see in this very thread, by the OP, we'll have people condemning a level 11 Operative for using cover.

 

My point was not about level 11s but rather people overleveled for the amount of skill they have playing the class. Let's say today you group up with a level 38 to do a Heroic-4. How confident are you that they have the knowledge of how to play his role/class commensurate with their level? Yes you can claim SWTOR has always had that problem but my claim (and those of others) is that it is significantly worse since 12xXP. We also claim if you limited it to Legacy Level 30 or a lvl 55 for each faction that you would still have idiots, but no where as many ignorant players. There is a difference.

[Gleneagle]

They were interlaced but it wasn't mandatory to keep going, actually. Or at least wasn't when I played. It wouldn't work in this game where if you stop the class story you can't just 'skip a quest'. You're done until you finish that part.

Actually if it was ESO the guilds took over again and yes, after L50 or if you wanted to play in PvP Cyrodiil even as a stealther Zenimax made it viable for groups only.

 

After 50 levels that might have been made for me the compulsory grouping essentially spoiled it all. Such a disappointment.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Gleneagle

[Galbatorrix]

I guess they changed things because I absolutely moved forward into other zones and was doing quests without having finished off that first 'kill the demon in the big room' or whatever that thing was. I don't even remember. Course that story obviously wasn't very memorable to me anyway, so I don't feel like I missed much. It's kind of a core part of my experience in this game, though.

 

Having stuff blocked off when leveling because you're uncomfortable dealing with PUGs is really just bad game design to me. And it sure as hell doesn't change anything at all.

 

 

That was a guildhest, and those are not mandatory. Sastasha was the first actual dungeon and you had to clear it in order to continue the main scenario.

[hadoken]

Actually if it was ESO the guilds took over again and yes, after L50 or if you wanted to play in PvP Cyrodiil even as a stealther Zenimax made it viable for groups only.

 

After 50 levels that might have been made for me the compulsory grouping essentially spoiled it all for me. Such a disappointment.

 

It wasn't, he's talking about Final Fantasy 14.

[hadoken]

That was a guildhest, and those are not mandatory. Sastasha was the first actual dungeon and you had to clear it in order to continue the main scenario.

 

Well perhaps I'd still be playing then if that weren't the case, instead of playing here and posting here

[Galbatorrix]

Well perhaps I'd still be playing then if that weren't the case, instead of playing here and posting here

 

Haha, fair enough. I'm currently on a hiatus from that game because after getting each of the jobs to 50, I got kind of bored with the daily/weekly gear grind. On the flip side, the 12x EXP pulled me back in to finish up the three class story lines I missed when I played SWTOR before.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[Gentleman_snow]

I know it can be irritating, but let's also look at the enthusiasm of these new players with their new toons. They clearly have an interest in the game and they want to do well, but it may not be obvious to them how to do so. I have met some real boneheads that deserve a good cutdown or two for their competency, but I've also met players who have gotten much better because someone took the time to explain what's going on and how to do their best for the team - to good effect for everyone. There's no good resolution to someone who just won't listen, but the effort isn't usually a wasted one, otherwise. Some players my find it laughable, but a n00b friendly atmosphere actually goes a long way for the longevity of a game in general. I suffer no fool any more gladly than anyone else, but I want to determine whether they're fools or people who just need instruction.

[JimG]

I ran KDY a couple of times last night and OMG I don't think most of my groupmates had any clue what to do.

I think this is a KDY-specific problem. Since it came out, KDY has been the power-levelers favorite tool. Before the 12xXP thing, I've encountered plenty of people on KDY who were clueless and many who were 10-25 levels undergeared. People just queue up for that thing and grind through it over and over and over without gearing, leveling, etc. to get to max level as fast as possible.

[EllieAnne]

But after enough KDY runs shouldn't they know the fights through osmosis?

[Heat-Wave]

I think this is a KDY-specific problem. Since it came out, KDY has been the power-levelers favorite tool. Before the 12xXP thing, I've encountered plenty of people on KDY who were clueless and many who were 10-25 levels undergeared. People just queue up for that thing and grind through it over and over and over without gearing, leveling, etc. to get to max level as fast as possible.

 

That sounds like one of the most boring ways to spend an afternoon...

[Halinalle]

Or it could be just random PUGs...

 

My latest KDY run. Today.

2x Scrapper Scoundrels, Sage healer (who was actually a healer!) and fourth one... well I already forgot the class (Guardian?) but still even he was good. Only thing we didn't do properly was interrupting elite defender (the one with red circle thingy).

Boss: droid

Every dps on boss until adds spawn and then immediately switch to adds. Everything just melted in seconds.

Not even talking about 55s. Closer to 30-35.

 

Now I really want to experience 4x Scrapper/Concealment in KDY!

Edited October 23, 2014 by Halinalle

[Warrgames]

But after enough KDY runs shouldn't they know the fights through osmosis?

 

Osmosis only works with continuous contact or repetitive contact, so....

 

 

You need to repetitively beat someone with KDY stick till they learn or can't queue anymore.

 

[robertthebard]

My point was not about level 11s but rather people overleveled for the amount of skill they have playing the class. Let's say today you group up with a level 38 to do a Heroic-4. How confident are you that they have the knowledge of how to play his role/class commensurate with their level? Yes you can claim SWTOR has always had that problem but my claim (and those of others) is that it is significantly worse since 12xXP. We also claim if you limited it to Legacy Level 30 or a lvl 55 for each faction that you would still have idiots, but no where as many ignorant players. There is a difference.

 

I have yet to meet many players that couldn't be replaced by a comp in a Heroic 4 at that level, considering I spend a lot of time and comms making sure my comps are up to the challenge, if I decide to run them. However, at that level, I'm not expecting much from anyone. I don't PuG at 55, I don't have to. That's what I'm in a guild for.

[Kalfear]

Had a funny group today that made me think of this very thread

 

Was doing my daily routine of HM and Tactical flashpoints and for the final hm of the day got CZ Meltdown (yet again, seriously, 9 flash points came in at 2 korriban, 1 Mannan, 1 CZ Labs, 5 Meltdown)

 

Was myself (40k commando), Sage (mostly 168 gear), Guardian (35k health but returning to game so rusty), and a fresh off the 12x xp commando healer at 28k health.

 

So we get to the Desert Oasis and I got over fight for Tank as he mentioned its been awhile

Healer adds in some really questionable advice that sounded like he had just read it on some web site

 

so we do it his way and its an almost immediate wipe (seriously, who is telling people to spread out vrs the Wraid, that smash will kill you every time if you expect healer to single target heal)

 

So I point out this and say (again) the correct way but healers read this somewhere and dang it hes 55 now and want to have a say.

 

Well we do better this time but still a wipe as healer still refused to get on the wraids butt end (in hind site (sorry bad pun) I think part of issues was commando healer didnt know about Hold The Line as he never popped it to catch up to the action and thought wrongly that hammer shot healing was enough on its own to keep tank up) so the aoe heal healing all. Also in hind site I never saw this commando healer use trauma probes even once and I was tossing out kolto bomb more frequently (even though I was dps) then he was.

 

Healer rage quits group and I can just imagine the rants he was going on about our terrible group and blah blah blah (just one of those times you know hes blaming everyone but himself to anyone that will listen)

 

We requeue, get a scoundrel healer in 168-180 gear and breeze through all the bosses with out incident or even coming close to a hiccup.

 

Just another case of a under geared person (thanks to 12x xp) entering content they not ready for but think reading some website was all the knowledge they required.

 

Made me think of this thread as it hit all the markers of this thread

Experienced players trying to teach and lead but newbie refusing to listen because they read about it on some website

12x xp getting players up to 55 with out them knowing about their abilities and how to use them

 

I suspect ALLOT of eyes are getting opened on how hard it actually is to heal and tank properly. I suspect ALLOT of DPSers are roleing healers and tanks and falling flat on their faces realizing they didnt have the faintest idea how much went into properly playing healers and tank builds.

 

That commando healer tonight had NO BUSINESS being queued for a Hard Mode Flash Point. He should be sticking to tacticals until his gear is at least a mix of 162-168 and he understands basic level concepts about the class hes trying to play. And not just reading about them on some website.

[LadyVix]

But after enough KDY runs shouldn't they know the fights through osmosis?

 

The problem is that some people assume that everyone running KDY has done so dozens of times, and knows exactly what to do. If they don't, they're labeled "noob" and we have threads like this pop up in the forums.

 

Yesterday I ran KDY for the very first time. Although I watched a YouTube video on it beforehand, I'll admit that I really had no clue where we were or what our next objective was. I simply followed the group and killed whatever the group attacked.

 

By some definitions I would be classified as a "noob" because I didn't know what to do in a flashpoint that some have done dozens of times, yet I've had a Lv50 legacy since before F2P, currently have eight 55's, and have played all 16 classes to a minimum Lv20, with an average of ~Lv35.

 

We can blame 12x EXP for the lack of player knowledge, but I'd contend that 12x EXP has NOTHING to do with the KDY PUG problem, and everything to do with the design of role-neutral bolstered flashpoints.

 

People with 12x EXP are NOT the ones running KDY, because such would dramatically hinder their leveling speed. People that have 12x EXP are the ones sticking to storyline quests.