Wherein Ellie rethinks her reaction to concerns over 12xXP

[Declan_Vee]

12xp actually forces me to approach fights differently, since I'm usually undergeared until level 47. I have to use taunts, roots, interrupts, and HM to manage the fights, instead of just facerolling a rotation.

 

I have to agree with this. The class stories I've experienced during 12x have been full of casts which need to interrupted, adds which need CC, stupid which shouldn't be stood in, defensive CDs which need to be used, etc...

 

The last few characters I levelled before this event we're very under-levelled for the mobs they faced (by at least 2 levels, often 4) but decently geared. This gave a very interesting challenge for most mobs with a gold/silver, or both.

 

With 12x I've taken a different approach and only used quest rewards, and whatever drops while in the world. While you outlevel the content, your gear is often rubbish and player skill is what will help you through the encounters... until Makeb where the GSI bolster is an insult to the other characters I took through there at 47 the old fashioned way.

 

For the most part a lot people will beg for help with any remotely challenging encounters; instead of tackling them intelligently (/cough Bothrium, /cough Archon). And then some Good Samaritan comes along thinking they're helping... only to contribute to the problem.

 

Other issue I would put down to a combination of gear dependency and over-gearing; especially at endgame. If Bioware were to adopt one of their old philosophies from 1.4 into 3.0 (the removal of top tier commendations from SM ops) it would do wonders for the general skill level.

 

When you're unable to faceroll content due to being underpowered/undergeared you need to play tactically, and if you need to play tactically then chances are you might actually learn to play.

[Kalfear]

Other issue I would put down to a combination of gear dependency and over-gearing; especially at endgame. If Bioware were to adopt one of their old philosophies from 1.4 into 3.0 (the removal of top tier commendations from SM ops) it would do wonders for the general skill level.

 

When you're unable to faceroll content due to being underpowered/undergeared you need to play tactically, and if you need to play tactically then chances are you might actually learn to play.

 

To a degree yes you are correct

 

BUT

 

I think back to the old days of this game when 50 was max and Lost Island was a legitimate tier 2 HM flashpoint

I ran it multiple times a week on multiple characters BUT only with certain people and NEVER through Group Finder (well unless we had a full 4 person group of course).

 

To this very day you still see 55s in 168-180 gear being rolled in Lost island despite it being a level 50 flash point and having been massively nerfed.

 

The go to action for Lost island in the old days was NOT become better players.

Those bad players simply dropped group and requeued if LI came up in the GF

They didn't get better, they just avoided the challenge completely

And they still do even with gear advantage and extra 5 levels and flashpoint being nerfed massively

 

Harder content will not make better players for the most part (some it will yes)

Harder content will just make more content less used sadly

 

And trust me that hurts me to say as I was 1000000% against the dumbing down of Makeb and find Im unable to even do the weekly on Makeb anymore as its just so freaking boring and mind numbingly simplistic.

 

I DO NOT want easier content

 

But I do recognize I am no longer in the majority as a player that likes to be tested and challenged

Over generalization yes but modern players,the WOW kiddies and those that came after want, nay they DEMAND easy and fast content that rewards hugely

They are not looking for a challenge or to be challenged

 

So looking at the recent dumbing down of the content across the board

I doubt they make the obtaining highest level coms harder.

If I was a betting man Id bet they make them easier to get or at the very least start selling them on the cartel market as yet another buy2win cartel item.

 

PS: For those claiming the 12x xp makes better players who need to learn skills to over come gear shortage

how do you explain so many new 55s having no clue what their interrupt for their class even is. How do you explain healers who dont know what their cleanse ability is called (and not having on their hot bars). How do you explain DPSers who think they are invincible?

 

Yes all these issues exsisted before the 12x xp

But they sure seem to be ALLOT more common now after the 12x xp

[AvalonBunny]

This has happened again and again with each of the double xp weekends ... I've grown tired of paying my hard earned credits on repair bills because the majority of the group have no clue what they're doing.

[SteelPiranha]

I can get past not knowing the flashpoints or the fights or even how to play well with others, but it's more than flashpoint idiocy. DPSs that don't know how to damage adds. People who think stealth means you can squeeze between mobs or active probe droids. And a lot of people trying to DPS and heal and not doing much of either.

 

That's what everyone is saying....the problems you're describing aren't exclusive to the 12xp event. Slowing the leveling speed down won't teach you how to damage adds, that's just not knowing how to play the game(or mmo's) period.

 

Also, KDY is a horrible place to expect people to execute perfect group mechanics.

[robertthebard]

None of what you're describing is unique to this event, though. All that stuff was already happening

 

+1

 

This is nothing new, it's not even new to MMOs in general.

[SteelPiranha]

 

PS: For those claiming the 12x xp makes better players who need to learn skills to over come gear shortage

how do you explain so many new 55s having no clue what their interrupt for their class even is. How do you explain healers who dont know what their cleanse ability is called (and not having on their hot bars). How do you explain DPSers who think they are invincible?

They don't know how to use those abilities since the class stories don't require you to cleanse and you can sometimes cheese the interrupts if your companion takes the damage. So they probably don't have a need to interrupt unless they keep dieing.

Yes all these issues exsisted before the 12x xp

But they sure seem to be ALLOT more common now after the 12x xp

 

That's probably because there are just more people at max level than before. Think about it, 55 content has as many participants as Black Talon/Esseles FPs now...Your sample size for pugging has now grown so what has been just a few players that didn't know group mechanics, now has multiplied.

 

This game does not teach you group mechanics while running class OR planetary missions. Even if you forced everyone to run every mission in the game they still will have no clue about group mechanics. So regardless of this 12xp event, people will get to 55 and not know how to effectively contribute to a group.

 

This isn't a 12xp class story problem.

[Lotharofxev]

Sorc in our guild has now resorted to telling tanks the following (she has it macroed I think)

 

1) Make sure you are in tank stance

2) Make sure you guard a DPS and not me

3) Treek is waiting

 

I think she's kicked two tanks out of 55 HM FPs so far and replaced them with Treek. But given that she relayed her macro last night, "something" must've happened to tick her off. (So it might be three or more)

[Kalfear]

Sorc in our guild has now resorted to telling tanks the following (she has it macroed I think)

 

1) Make sure you are in tank stance

2) Make sure you guard a DPS and not me

3) Treek is waiting

 

I think she's kicked two tanks out of 55 HM FPs so far and replaced them with Treek. But given that she relayed her macro last night, "something" must've happened to tick her off. (So it might be three or more)

 

LMAO!

 

I love the #3

well the concept, if she ever grouped with me I'd have to tell her my groups are non treek zones

 

Had a Flash point other day, Hammer station hard mode where was with 2 other guildies and a pug DPS

Pug DPS had to take off part way into flash point (not bad mouthing him, real life happens to us all he he was up front about it) so since we already had the GF running I just summoned my Nadia companion (shes mostly in 180 gear including 180 hilt) and sure enough she was grossly out DPSing what the previous DPSer had been adding to group.

 

So I COMPLETELY get what sorc in your guild saying.

Many times its just easier and less head aches to use a companion then run with a PUG

 

LOL, Myself and guildmate (my sage healer and him DPS guardian) have 2 manned Rakata Prime with our companions a few times (clean runs, no deaths) now yet I still see other GF groups struggle or even die at the second boss despite them all being in 162 gear.

 

Personally though I never stress out about the guard thing unless group has one of those high dps players (note I said player, not class) who actually pulls enough agro to warrant 2nd looking whose guarded. And then its normally just a quick mention in chat to have it switched.

 

My biggest issue and a huge no no when I'm healing is DPSers that jump ahead of tank in hard modes (or tactical s if they cant handle it). Its one thing if you go first and can handle the initial onslaught, I dont care about DPSers like that. But drives me batty when gunslingers/snipers/sents/mauraders leap first cause you know you have to pretty much blow your force power pool just keeping them alive because they refused to wait 2 seconds for tank to pull. Honestly I have been known to let those types of DPSers die intentionally after one warning to stop jumping ahead of tank.

[CrazyGreggy]

Doesn't matter if there have always been bad players, doesn't matter if there are other orifices they could've spewed from, fact remains that with events like this there are more t**ds in the pool.

[Gleneagle]

I don't want to throw water on things but expressing exasperation that too many people have no clue isn't a solution. There's a reasonably old saying: "It takes a village to raise a child."

 

What I mean by that is that rather than expressing your frustration at them and offending inexperienced players (or accelerated experience players) take the time to give them the clues they need. Explain what will happen and tell them what they need to do. If you do, then you will find success more often, experience less frustration, encourage young players, increase positive attitudes and make friends.

 

Leadership provides its own rewards.

 

It is one thing to recognize that some are clueless, but improves your experience as a leader when you accept the responsibility to teach instead of complaining about the hand you were dealt.

 

Leadership widens and improves the pool of players you can PUG with when your regulars are scarce.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Gleneagle

[hadoken]

Doesn't matter if there have always been bad players, doesn't matter if there are other orifices they could've spewed from, fact remains that with events like this there are more t**ds in the pool.

 

And there are plenty of good players joining too, or would you rather just play an MMO by yourself?

[Kalfear]

 

It is one thing to recognize that some are clueless, but improves your experience as a leader when you accept the responsibility to teach instead of complaining about the hand you were dealt.

 

Leadership widens and improves the pool of players you can PUG with when your regulars are scarce.

 

Depends on the person

I have a long history of helping players when its needed

But I learned years ago you can only help those who are willing to be helped

 

Plus I'm in a guild

I help guild members every day explaining something be it flash points, rotations, crafting, stratgies for conquest points, ect.

I will spend hours helping guild mates on most days

 

I do that with out question or issue

 

but when I queue up for a GF flash point,

Im not queueing up as a leader

Im queueing up as a DPS, Tank, Healer looking to do this content

not teach this content

Not power level someone

Not carry someone under geared through it

 

Honestly if Im going to power level or carry someone through a flash point its going to be someone I know and like, not some stranger through GF.

 

Listen if someone enters a flash point and says up front "Im new and dont know this one very well" I will go out of my way to explain every major fight and show them the route

 

But if they don't speak up I assume they are experienced and geared properly and ready to go at the standard pace.

 

Its easy to try and put the blame on others for not leading

When in reality if you are not experienced in the content you signed up for,

Its YOUR responsibility to be up front and honest at the get go

And yes, that means some groups will remove you because they are NOT looking to teach you

Its not their responsibility to be brutally honest

Some will, some will not, NEITHER is incorrect when going through group finder.

 

The best way to learn is to TAKE STEPS YOURSELF

Join a guild

Ask them for help

LEARN FROM THEM

 

Cause if you are entering GF with the hopes of people teaching and leading

you are completely not grasping what GF is there for

 

Hell I wont even hold up groups to gather all resources in a flash point

Ill grab what I can with out delaying group

Because they didn't enter GF to watch me gather crafting materials

And most certainly don't join to lead and baby sit strangers.

 

As I said, if someone is upfront at the start ill actually take the time to teach and lead

but don't tell me I HAVE TO or ITS EXPECTED OF ME

because its NOT in a GF group

Its really not

 

In GF you are expected to be geared appropriately and you are expected to know your class and your responsibilities

 

Its honestly pretty basic stuff

[Gleneagle]

Certainly leadership requires cooperation. The student must approach it as a student. You can't effectively lead without someone following. And it is certainly the responsibility of the learner to be up front and honest before it is too late.

 

I felt it needed to be said that those who know have some responsibility for the quality of the experience. The thread was all about exalting 'us' and deriding 'them' without even looking at the fact that no relationship is one-sided.

[Warrgames]

Leadership provides its own rewards.

 

It is one thing to recognize that some are clueless, but improves your experience as a leader when you accept the responsibility to teach instead of complaining about the hand you were dealt.

 

Leadership widens and improves the pool of players you can PUG with when your regulars are scarce.

 

Teaching is one of things that I love most in RL and IG. Last week well I was on Makeb doing my staged weekly as pub. I was on Gav Hook 7 and came across an imp without the bolster buff. I spent 10 min explaining to the guy about GSI bolster and how it only works if you click the satellite terminal. I explain where to find these terminals and even offer to hope onto my imp to show him. The guy was interested in learning and not everyone cares to learn. Showing up to FP ungeared or completely clueless about your rotation. Tells me you don't care. Those that put in some effort to gear and learn a rotation are willing to listen when you try and teach. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[EllieAnne]

Certainly leadership requires cooperation. The student must approach it as a student. You can't effectively lead without someone following. And it is certainly the responsibility of the learner to be up front and honest before it is too late.

 

I felt it needed to be said that those who know have some responsibility for the quality of the experience. The thread was all about exalting 'us' and deriding 'them' without even looking at the fact that no relationship is one-sided.

 

Then you must have missed in my OP when I explained three times what DPS should be doing when adds pop up and was ignored.

 

The more we discuss this, the more I'm convinced that BW should keep this around but only as a legacy perk. What legacy level would you say? 30?

[Gleneagle]

Then you must have missed in my OP when I explained three times what DPS should be doing when adds pop up and was ignored.

I apologize. I did read your post but then read all the others and somehow my mind glossed over some of what you said under the weight of all that followed.

[Sangrar]

Then you must have missed in my OP when I explained three times what DPS should be doing when adds pop up and was ignored.

 

The more we discuss this, the more I'm convinced that BW should keep this around but only as a legacy perk. What legacy level would you say? 30?

 

Trust me I know people with higher than that who still do not follow simple directions sometimes and who just bumbled their way to that legacy level.

 

 

Its not a new issue at all, and there are plenty of new players that do learn their class and mechanics, but there are others, not just in this event, who regardless have no clue and do not want to listen to others, 12xp or no 12xp, if they do not want to listen and ignore people then clearly they will never do the right thing. The point is 12xp is fine as it is ( except maybe there should be a toggle for people who do not want to use the boost) the problem will just always be people who refuse to listen and follow simple instructions, its annoying, its irritating, and it occurs very commonly in KDY to begin with ( when people hear the words "roles don't matter" they assume that means they can just flail blindly and still win)

[trindermon]

learning to play a class is NOT the same as knowing a flashpoints mechanics (nore that of group play).

 

I have leveled 3 chars to max level, one by doing ALL the content - and 2 by doing just story with 12x XP.

 

I know how to play those charicters all to a level that means i should be able to shoot appropriate targets. I however will not know the flashpoints individual mechanics. it doesnt matter how i leveled - i wont magically know how a flashpoint i have never seen before works.

 

nothing wrong with having to expain instance mechanics.

 

if people dont listern to advise i am not sure they would if they were leveling normally in eithercase. they would arrive eventually and do the same - its just you guys are getting them in 1 big bang all at once.

 

its a through put issue not the 12x thing its self.

Edited October 23, 2014 by trindermon

[Lotharofxev]

I get paid very well by the US taxpayer (well peanuts compared to a comparable position in corporate) to lead, teach, plan, adjust and support units and soldiers as part of the strategic national vision.

 

I do not get paid by the parent company of Star Wars: The Old Republic to teach, spoon feed, explain or acquiesce to their sense of entitlement.

 

What I am asking them to * KNOW *, I either researched, or asked myself. I put in the necessary legwork to not only learn the fights (or at least read a guide, watch a video), and /or subvert my pride / ego to ASK "Hey, any special mechanics on this one?", and to come to the group / party PROPERLY EQUIPPED.

 

Memo to the latest group of "Kuat Kiddies" - you are not a special snowflake. You are the same decaying Organic matter as the rest of the planet. You want to blaze through content? Fine by me. I don't pay your subscription. However, when you join a group it is no longer YOUR time, it is now OUR time.

 

And I will not have MY time wasted.

[Galbatorrix]

I completely blame Bioware, but not because of the 12x EXP. If they'd have done it right, and added each of the flashpoints into the class stories, then every player would have had to do each one at least once as they leveled up. Not only would this have been cool for story reasons, but it also would have taught each player how to use their AC in a group setting.

 

Even without the 12x EXP, players can still solo their way to 55 and then jump into HMs without having a clue. It's Bioware's fault for letting them go the whole way solo in the first place.

 

This is yet another thing FFXIV did better than this game. The dungeons were actually part of the story line and you had to complete each one as you leveled in order to move on in the story.

[hadoken]

I completely blame Bioware, but not because of the 12x EXP. If they'd have done it right, and added each of the flashpoints into the class stories, then every player would have had to do each one at least once as they leveled up. Not only would this have been cool for story reasons, but it also would have taught each player how to use their AC in a group setting.

 

Even without the 12x EXP, players can still solo their way to 55 and then jump into HMs without having a clue. It's Bioware's fault for letting them go the whole way solo in the first place.

 

This is yet another thing FFXIV did better than this game. The dungeons were actually part of the story line and you had to complete each one as you leveled in order to move on in the story.

 

That's a terrible idea. You want to force people to group to continue their class story? No, BioWare was exceptionally wise in dodging that bullet.

[Galbatorrix]

That's a terrible idea. You want to force people to group to continue their class story? No, BioWare was exceptionally wise in dodging that bullet.

 

So, letting people play an MMO solo mode to max level and then have zero clue about what threat is, or CC, or other normal group functions like letting the Tank go in first would be the better option? Get real. It's already obvious in this game that too many people don't know how to play in a group environment. Again, FFXIV forced you to do each dungeon while going through the story and it worked out wonderfully. The only thing you have to worry about in that game at max level is the normal "This is my first time in this dungeon" thing. You never run into a ton of people that have no clue how to group or play their class.

 

Complaining that you are being "forced" to group up in an MMO is beyond ridiculous. If you want to play a single player game, go play a single player game. Again, Bioware dropped the ball.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Galbatorrix

[Cernow]

Complaining that you are being "forced" to group up in an MMO is beyond ridiculous. If you want to play a single player game, go play a single player game. Again, Bioware dropped the ball.

 

Such a narrow minded view. MMOs are different things to different people. Players have different playstyles, likes/dislikes, abilities/disabilities, amounts of available time etc. Forced grouping never works out well.

 

Many players like MMOs because they enjoy adventuring with other people around, but not necessarily formally grouped with them. This doesn't mean they should stick to playing single player games. But someone always trots out this tired old argument when the word 'solo' comes up in a MMO.

 

A good and successful MMO doesn't try to pigeon-hole players and supports a range of playstyles. TOR does this pretty well - there's lots of solo content, lots of group content and also a fair bit of more relaxed group content such as Tacticals.

 

12x xps is currently causing some issues with players arriving at endgame undergeared, underprepared and underskilled. But soon as the expansion launches we'll all be in the same boat anyway, with new gear, new content, new skill system.

[Lotharofxev]

12x xps is currently causing some issues with players arriving at endgame undergeared, underprepared and underskilled.

 

But soon as the expansion launches we'll all be in the same boat anyway, with new gear, new content, new skill system.

 

Please tell me how, if the situation is bad now, simply allowing people to group with 60 greens is any better than allowing them to group with 55 greens?

 

Please tell me how, if folks are "underprepared" and "underskilled" (your words not mine), adding new FPs and a NEW discipline tree is going to diminish the problem and not amplify the problems?

[Gleneagle]

If you want to play a single player game, go play a single player game.

Other than solitaire, is there such a thing? I tried to solo PONG but my right hand kept cheating. (I think it haxxored) Edited October 23, 2014 by Gleneagle