Alacrity for Concealment

[poweed]

Hi guys,

 

I recently rolled a Concealment Op which is lvl 45 atm. I've seen many different opinions about alacrity for Conceal PVP. Some people think it's useless and other recommend stacking it to improve GCD. Since I'm quite new to SWTOR I would like to know your view on the matter

 

Cheers

[Racter]

Currently worthless, may be worth picking up in 3.0 but we don't know yet.

[stratiSphear]

so 3.0 is out, whats the verdict? anyone? Edited March 23, 2015 by stratiSphear

[Satedbuffalo]

so 3.0 is out, whats the verdict? anyone?

 

One piece in a full PvE stat budget is useful. Unclear for PvP, as preferred accuracy numbers vary a lot.

[venomlash]

Conventional wisdom is that it's no good for Concealment because it doesn't reduce the CD of Cloaking Screen, which is a big part of the spec's burst.

[MiaowZedong]

One piece in a full PvE stat budget is useful. Unclear for PvP, as preferred accuracy numbers vary a lot.

 

Wait, what? Concealment is basically straight Tech damage, it runs 0 accuracy in PvP. I do not use any alacrity on melee classes in PvP, due to losing so many small fractions of a GCD (when you constantly have abilities trigger, the GCD UI overlay start to play, then the server invalidates the ability and no damage happens) that I can't see alacrity giving real benefits.

 

In PvE alacrity is helpful, thought not to the same extent as for most other specs due to not affecting the CD of Concealment Screen, as has been said before.

Edited March 23, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[zZeroAgent]

power/surge is all you need

[QuiveringPotato]

power/surge is all you need

 

I think it's useful to pick up some alacrity once you reach 75% surge, as going higher will put you over the softcap for DR and getting alacrity instead at that point would be more beneficial.

[snave]

My stats.

 

Works fine for me, YMMV.

 

http://i.imgur.com/rpVvQH9.jpg

[TACeMossie]

Conventional wisdom is that it's no good for Concealment because it doesn't reduce the CD of Cloaking Screen, which is a big part of the spec's burst.

 

Maybe, but due to how CDs synch up, you can get up to 449 Alacrity before you start actually desynching backstab from cloaking screen, ASSUMING YOU HAVE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE APM (Backstab = 12 second CD, Cloaking Screen = 90 seconds, so 8 Backstabs is normally 94.9-96 seconds - 4.9-6 seconds of leeway to cloaking screen depending on Stim Boost)

 

Also note that the 450 alacrity determined to be the first point below 90 seconds per 8 backstabs doesn't count if you don't end up using backstab under stim boost.

 

For reference, the maximum point for alacrity with this information can also be seen as 5.51%. Below that much, its fine.

 

E.g., Snave is using 5.3% alacrity. This means no matter what he does, his cloaking screen will always be up for every 8th backstab, so long as he takes the -30 seconds CD utility.

Edited March 24, 2015 by TACeMossie

[WickedImage]

Alacrity is not all that noticeable on concealment tbh. Accuracy is not needed really, so....if choosing between the 2....grab alacrity?

I "think" I could lose both and not even notice?

I use power/surge as others have stated, I recommend you do the same. Sprinkle some crit to taste? Done.

And yes, ymmv.

[PBoba]

I do not use any alacrity on melee classes in PvP, due to losing so many small fractions of a GCD (when you constantly have abilities trigger, the GCD UI overlay start to play, then the server invalidates the ability and no damage happens)

 

I'm sorry, can you explain this? I think I've noticed this, i just thought it was my 200ms connection jipping me, like usual...

[qwopicus]

Make sure you enable "pre-firing" abilities in your preferences. It allows you to hit something up to 1 second before it's actually available, so your UI will be irrelevant.

[Vakyoom]

Alacrity is not all that noticeable on concealment tbh. Accuracy is not needed really, so....if choosing between the 2....grab alacrity?

I "think" I could lose both and not even notice?

I use power/surge as others have stated, I recommend you do the same. Sprinkle some crit to taste? Done.

And yes, ymmv.

 

by the time you get to 174 gear you will start to run out of surge DR and you get upwards of like 77% with companion bonus.... those last couple %'s past 75% with companion are really really not worth it.... You can get about 3.5% alac off of that 2% surge. I stay at 76% surge on most days. I'll drop it more as i replace more gear.

 

It's noticable for me because of the GCD lowering... If i'm getting attacks off every 1.4 sec that's a burst increase, more so than an unfathomably low 2% surge for the same stat points.

 

Don't worry about alac until you get up to Dark Reaver gear but about 4-5% is my eventual goal.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Vakyoom

[MiaowZedong]

I'm sorry, can you explain this? I think I've noticed this, i just thought it was my 200ms connection jipping me, like usual...

Everyone will get it, but if you're at 200ms you'll get it more than most.

 

The basic reason is that both the client and the server must check that the conditions are met for your attack, but they do so at slightly different times since information must travel between them. Frequently in PvP the constant movement will cause the server to invalidate the attack even though it was valid when you requested it client-side, as the slight time delay is enough for the target to no longer be in range, no longer be in arc, or for Backstab, for you no longer to be behind them.

 

It doesn't help that SWTOR uses TCP (online games should use UDP instead) as its network protocol.

[qwopicus]

As previous people have said: alactrity>nothing>accuracy

 

Also: there's numerous utilities that "Reduce the cooldown of X by Y seconds when taking damage, only every 1.5 seconds". So if your GCD is barely slightly less than that, you only give them the reduction every other attack.

[Vakyoom]

Also: there's numerous utilities that "Reduce the cooldown of X by Y seconds when taking damage, only every 1.5 seconds". So if your GCD is barely slightly less than that, you only give them the reduction every other attack.

 

That's pretty interesting, i never thought about it like that! PT's being the first thing that comes to mind...

 

As far as that slight lag you can get with GCD clipping, just turn on the ability Q... .75-1 sec or so and you can line up what abilities you want next OR change your mind at the last second by spamming a new key. i usually sit at 70ms and the only time i see that ability delay is when i press shield probe as another ability is queue'd or i mess up my rotation and and either let my target get away from me before the ability goes off or i just don't press the Queue in time.

 

That ability queue may make a huge difference since the server is going to do it as soon as it can and if you play MOBA's you know that the computer can react and perform your task faster than you or i could(relation to pressing A+left click in a MOBA vs R-clicking on the enemy, the computer will fire your auto attack quicker with the A+left-click).

Edited March 29, 2015 by Vakyoom

[Wainamoinen]

All for PvP Scrapper / Concealment:

 

Alacrity is one of three tertiary stats. Gear will have one of them. The other two are Surge and Accuracy. You're choosing between these three (augments should be Cunning).

 

Accuracy is nigh-on useless. It will make Flurry of Bolts / Rifle Shot hit a little more often, and provide minute benefit if you're hit with an accuracy debuff. It's insultingly bad.

 

So your choice is between Surge and Alacrity. Surge is very good, but is the stat with that tails off quickest of all with its diminshing returns curve. Thus it's tempting to go for Alacrity.

 

Two things about Alacrity to consider:

1) Theoretically (again), in a perfect, smooth DPS environment a boost from Alacrity should increase your DPS predictably. The amounts you get from it would make it a pretty powerful stat. However, particuarly in PvP, you're far froma perfect smooth environment. Every time an ability doesn't go at the earliest opportunity, you lose the major benefit of Alacrity. So Ranged and dots classes will get the most benefit as their damage is usually smoother, but melee classes that are constantly getting ranged, interrupted, losing attack cone or whatever won't benefit to the full.

 

2) First mover advantage. This could actually be really strong. Say you have two players, same 39000 health, same base damage of 10000. But player A takes 10% damage boost while player B takes 10% speed boost.

 

First hit is simultaneous, and A does more damage. But player B gets his second hit in before player A. He's doing less damage per hit, but he does it earlier, so he'll kill player A who has the more powerful hits. Quick table below to demonstrate the progress of each of their health.

 

actions - health A - health B

start - 39000 - 39000

0 - 29000 - 28000

1 - 19000 - 28000

2 - 19000 - 17000

3 - 9000 - 17000

4 - 9000 - 6000

5 - dead - 6000

 

Player A is hitting harder, but lightning Player B gets his damage in first and wins. This is a simplification, but also consider that to get this advantage Player B doesn't have to give up 10% damage to be 10% faster - he only needs to be faster than Player A, so he could have virtually the same damage so long as he's that crucial sliver quicker.

 

So Snave's relatively high alacrity could be a smart move, and one people are loth to take because everyone loves their sexy big numbers flashing up (Hell, I know I do) and tend to only value those when thinking what stat route to go.

 

TL;DR: benefit from Alacrity is really tough to estimate, but is probably badly underestimated.

 

and edit: thanks to TACeMossie. I'll check but it sounds right without checking, so edited, the other two hold.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Wainamoinen

[TACeMossie]

Mate, alacrity doesnt work like that. Cooldowns (including the GCD) are multiplied by 1/(1+Alacrity), so its linearly a case of Alacrity% = Percent DPS boost Edited March 31, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Vakyoom]

The whole point of alacrity is to not worry about it until you can't get your worth out of surge anymore(74-75% without companion bonus).. Then you can get some alac which will help you out. Vstrike gets down to like 5.7 sec, Backstab comes off cooldown sooner too as well as anything else with a cd...

 

And personally i wouldn't say 'you should have Cunning augments' because it's all play style... If you have about 22-24% crit i wouldn't bother with cunning.. you get more flat damage from power augs and that's what i've always used with great success. If i ever need more crit, the Dark Reaver set has plenty of it that'll take too long to farm the alternate mods for, so use those.

 

I won't say that power is absolute over cunning augs, that is for a different thread. However, to say that you need to run cunning is more your personal opinion than fact. Other classes benefit more from Main Stat augs vs Ops.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Vakyoom

[snave]

The whole point of alacrity is to not worry about it until you can't get your worth out of surge anymore(74-75% without companion bonus).. Then you can get some alac which will help you out. Vstrike gets down to like 5.7 sec, Backstab comes off cooldown sooner too as well as anything else with a cd...

 

And personally i wouldn't say 'you should have Cunning augments' because it's all play style... If you have about 22-24% crit i wouldn't bother with cunning.. you get more flat damage from power augs and that's what i've always used with great success. If i ever need more crit, the Dark Reaver set has plenty of it that'll take too long to farm the alternate mods for, so use those.

 

I won't say that power is absolute over cunning augs, that is for a different thread. However, to say that you need to run cunning is more your personal opinion than fact. Other classes benefit more from Main Stat augs vs Ops.

 

Crit is a good stat for operatives due to the significant surge increase we get on lacerate spam.

 

These are my top hitting abilities over 2 months worth of combat parses:

Ability avg hit avg crit

Volatile Substance 6,548 8,210

Backstab 5,059 7,379

Laceration 3,667 6,064

Veiled Strike 3,739 6,040

 

I run a little crit heavy but tbh at this stage we're arguing 1% - 2% in either stats favour which I don't think is going to make the world of difference either way.

 

The reason I run so much alacrity is that in a fight the ability to exert control over your opponent sooner is significantly more important than hitting them a bit harder. When I press a button after my first GCD the odds are I'm going to land my move before yours and this allows me to control and manoeuvre myself far more easily. Alacrity adds flexibility, even if slightly so, and that is more important to me than hitting for 1k more every crit.

[Wainamoinen]

And personally i wouldn't say 'you should have Cunning augments' because it's all play style... If you have about 22-24% crit i wouldn't bother with cunning.. you get more flat damage from power augs and that's what i've always used with great success. If i ever need more crit, the Dark Reaver set has plenty of it that'll take too long to farm the alternate mods for, so use those.

 

I won't say that power is absolute over cunning augs, that is for a different thread. However, to say that you need to run cunning is more your personal opinion than fact. Other classes benefit more from Main Stat augs vs Ops.

 

I have to disagree. Cunning is objectively better for Scrapper and Concealment - though not enormously. I *have* done the maths, at some length, because I wanted to be sure of the answer.

 

If I can pull one sentence out of your quote:

If you have about 22-24% crit i wouldn't bother with cunning..

There may be a misunderstanding going on here. Your level of total crit chance% has no effect at all on how much benefit you get from Cunning. It's a mistake to look at absolute levels because of the separate components. Any flat bonus (class buff, base, companion, abilities) doesn't affect the amount or return on crit chance from Crit stat or Cunning, and crit chance from Crit stat is on a separate diminishing returns curve to that from Cunning (or Aim on Ranged abilities).

 

So because the crit chance from Cunning is unaffected by the level gained ftom other sources, the comparison for augments is straight Main Stat versus Power. Your total crit chance% doesn't come into it. And for Scrapper / Concealment, the massive surge% bonus on all our big-hitting abilities means the extra crit chance from Cunning puts that ahead of Power for any reasonable value of Surge. There are also other advantages than just average damage totals, like crits avoiding shields on tanks.

 

It's close enough that if you've all Power augs and little money, I wouldn't say you must change them all out immediately, but if a Scrapper / Concealment wants the absolute most output, he'll be picking up Cunning.

 

 

And good point from Snave on Alacrity also letting you control the fight better, beyond doing damage earlier. Stuff like that, based upon the fact that activations aren't smooth but actually broken up, is hard to account for with a standard "dummy-parse-style" model that assumes a smooth and unbroken series of attacks on an inactive lump.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Wainamoinen

[Vakyoom]

It's not about how much crit you would get from cunning(DR or anything like that), it's that i don't want more crit at all and power augs give more flat damage even with the % to main stat buffs. I saw the math some time ago(january 2015) that while cunning augs give crit and power, power augs give more damage at the cost of crit.

 

If you desire the extra crit then cunning augs are for you but not wanting extra crit is enough for me to run power augs instead.

[Wainamoinen]

Power does give higher bonus damage than Cunning (Power = 0.23 bonus damage per point, to Cunning's 0.21, with class buffs).

 

However, your average damage is higher with Cunning, because you get more crits with the extra crit chance you get from main stat. Crits both do much more damage (over 100% more for all our best abilities) and don't get shielded. This more than overcomes the higher base damage of Power.

 

To recap: as Scrapper/Concealment your average damage is higher with Cunning augments.

 

Which augments you choose to equip is of course up to you, I'm only stating what the effects are.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Wainamoinen