State of the Server

[bluecheesebandit]

With 3.0 on the horizon it seems a good time to start a discussion on where the server is and where everyone would like to be when it arrives. Other guilds and servers have been ramping up for 3.0 and expanding their recruiting and focus.

 

What do you all (especially those of you who have experienced multiple servers) think of the community on BC? Are we destined to play little league or will we conjure some magic to hit the big leagues?

 

PVP

I can't speak much for PVP, but I've definitely seen that it suffers from a "big fish little pond" syndrome where premades run rampant in regs instead of stepping up to a challenge of ranked (something I have no experience in, nor any desire to experience). Generally, there are not many positive things said about PVP on BC. It seems like there are a ton of petty squabbles, always a favorite player to hate, and most serious PVPers get annoyed and leave for somewhere else.

 

PVE

For PVE, it seems like there are very few guilds or groups of people that are in nightmare content and many struggling to get into hardmodes that have been out for a long time. Only one group of people (pub and imp) have done anything at all in DP NiM and Hateful remains undefeated on Imp side, the only masks coming from off-server. Again, the only collaboration coming in PVE is in small doses and no guilds seem to be able to attract a large enough player base to accomplish much before falling apart. Again, petty squabbles seem to be the problem with egos getting in the way. The last truly great 16m teams were months and months ago with DF and DP HM clears (Imp side) although there seem to be some 16m teams on pub side making some progress. Again, most really serious PVErs seem to leave for off-server guilds. Personally, I would love to let bygones be bygones and see a very competitive 16m team be initiated by someone (maybe I'm the only person on the server who would want to see it) with regards only given to player skill and commitment. In terms of even for casual PVE content we suffer, with "SM warriors" not stepping or stepping very lightly into HM content and more inexperienced PVE players just plain being terrible having not bothered to look at even a dulfy guide.

 

Other topics

A third and fourth group might be GSF and RP, but I truly have no idea how either of those are doing on the server, other than occasional updates from a guildie who does GSF. I know there is another website devoted to RP on BC, but I haven't visited it in a long time and I have no idea how active it is. The very limited experience I had in RP was very rudimentary and I jumped ship for a PVE guild as soon as I found one that fit.

 

Can we foster the same community on BC that other servers have, and what steps do you all think we'd need to take to do that?

 

Suggestions for PVP

For PVP, I really have no suggestions for the community so I'll have to leave that in someone else's ball court. Some cursory thoughts might be a communal place to organize and sign up for specific times to que for solo ranked, but that might already exist. It seems like expanding it to more than having to contact particular guilds and people in game might help. Hopefully you guys have channels set up on imp and pub side?

 

Suggestions for PVE

For PVE, it seemed like http://www.leftoversraiding.org, a place to communally schedule raids with your own rules, did not seem to appeal to other guilds. The advantages of which I had outlined in a previous thread some time ago, but here is a google doc from that: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JF2VpEBwDZkAP3smM_XxuIH8Tb3QDXgMoJW8MeuQ278/edit?usp=sharing. I'm not sure which other things might help. I tried with the guild summit a while ago, but it kind of fizzled and nobody really other than one guild ever contacted me about leftovers, something with the potential to vastly improve the PVE community if just a handful of more guilds start scheduling HM runs and more players start signing up for runs. Obviously I'm active on the site but I don't want to push for my own particular thing for the rest of the server if there is a better alternative. Also, remember that the /raids channel is available to PUG groups for any level, SM to NiM to find raiders to join you.

 

Suggestions for Other Topics

For GSF and RP, again, I'd like to hear thoughts on that.

 

What are other perspectives on this? Is BC really just kind of a farm server for others, where we're used by players enjoying life on "easymode" to hone skills before we get drafted by the pros? Or are we something else?

[raidmac]

For players that are new to Nightmare raiding, especially healers and tanks, you need to have a consistent group. Seeing as you are using a sign up site such as Leftovers, it tells me that there may not be a consistent group doing nightmare. I would take someone who is an average player over an amazing player who can only make it to raid every other week. Clearing nightmare content takes a lot of commitment, and once you find 8 people who are committed you will be golden. Also it may simply be the case that if you want to do NiM content your best option will be to transfer off the server. This server has not had a competitive Nightmare raid team since NiM EC, which was a really long time ago.

[bluecheesebandit]

For players that are new to Nightmare raiding, especially healers and tanks, you need to have a consistent group. Seeing as you are using a sign up site such as Leftovers, it tells me that there may not be a consistent group doing nightmare. I would take someone who is an average player over an amazing player who can only make it to raid every other week. Clearing nightmare content takes a lot of commitment, and once you find 8 people who are committed you will be golden. Also it may simply be the case that if you want to do NiM content your best option will be to transfer off the server. This server has not had a competitive Nightmare raid team since NiM EC, which was a really long time ago.

 

You really have no idea, do you. I'm looking to improve the server, not "raidmac's tips for noobs". Go back to Harby.

Edited October 21, 2014 by bluecheesebandit

[raidmac]

You really have no idea, do you. I'm looking to improve the server, not "raidmac's tips for noobs". Go back to Harby.

 

IF you want to improve the server you need to lead the way. It not like I lead and started a guild on BC that turned into one of the only guilds on the server to clear nightmare content. No one on Hit and Run had any raiding experience, but through humility consistency we learned how to raid and cleared content--something you dont seem to have. You asked for other perspectives, and you got it.

Edited October 21, 2014 by raidmac

[bluecheesebandit]

IF you want to improve the server you need to lead the way. It not like I lead and started a guild on BC that turned into one of the only guilds on the server to clear nightmare content. No one on Hit and Run had any raiding experience, but through humility consistency we learned how to raid and cleared content--something you dont seem to have

 

I am not interested in e peen contests, I am interested in creating a community on this server and getting thoughts from people on this server. I'm simply amazed at how many theads I post that are derailed by people who wish to press upon others their own superiority. You're better than me at SWTOR. If that's what you wanted, you've got it. Now the whole server knows. Feel free to get that tattooed.

 

If you have anything to offer in terms of building a server wide community for all aspects of endgame, I will humble myself and lend you an ear. And in the future, if I want raiding advice, I will definitely send you a PM since that is something you could help with.

[raidmac]

I am not interested in e peen contests, I am interested in creating a community on this server and getting thoughts from people on this server. I'm simply amazed at how many theads I post that are derailed by people who wish to press upon others their own superiority. You're better than me at SWTOR. If that's what you wanted, you've got it. Now the whole server knows. Feel free to get that tattooed.

 

If you have anything to offer in terms of building a server wide community for all aspects of endgame, I will humble myself and lend you an ear. And in the future, if I want raiding advice, I will definitely send you a PM since that is something you could help with.

edit, its not worth it. Also I still play on BC, so i dont see why you feel i cant post here

Edited October 21, 2014 by raidmac

[Haivon]

We should have another PvE summit to discuss about server situation again. Because why not. Also might be needed.

[bluecheesebandit]

We should have another PvE summit to discuss about server situation again. Because why not. Also might be needed.

 

Then do we want to come up with a list of things people would like to discuss and different possible solutions? I'd rather get the whole griping phase out of the way earlier rather than during the voice communication we would be having.

 

PS: People, this is your chance to unload and gripe about everything wrong in the BC world.

[Foambreaker]

State of the server post, but doesn't cover PvP or RP

[bluecheesebandit]

State of the server post, but doesn't cover PvP or RP

 

Because I don't know anything about them. I would love to help facilitate that conversation but I'll need the help of RPers and PVPers to do so. I'm open to a discussion on all aspects of the server including GSF, conquest, and leveling. Please, come with your thoughts on all.

 

Also, I certainly am NOT the most qualified person on the server to potentially host this, and will definitely need a dedicated RP "lead" and PVP "lead" to help me with those. If someone else wants to try to facilitate the conversation then I will gladly pass the reins.

Edited October 21, 2014 by bluecheesebandit

[bsbrad]

Can I throw my tuppence ha'penny in here (or my 2c).

 

Since I returned from my 6 month exile of playing WOW and WS I can see that between a few guilds splitting up and other guilds closing ranks the state of the server hasn't changed much.

 

PVE

 

There are still only a select few guilds even attempting NM content and even fewer succeeding in it (typically the same 20ish people).

 

I personally know of a few people who would like to do more HM/NM raiding but most of the guilds/groups have ridiculous requirements to raid (must do a gazillion DPS or a google amount of healing). In the days when I used to do progression raiding I found it more fun and challenging to be clearing content at level or even undergear level.

 

I would be up to listen to whatever the PVE summit comes up with, hell if I am on I will gladly take part.

 

PVP

 

Since coming back I have probably spent most of my time here and other than the old usual petty rivalries I think the PVP scene is not too bad. Of course you have people with egos bigger than their actual skill level deserves but this is true of most PVP cultures. Yes we do suffer from a big fish in a small pond mentality but after experiencing what the so called PVP servers have to offer I do believe that the difference in skill at the top is not that huge.

 

I would like in the PVP environment to have scheduled times to do stuff like Solo ranked, and Group ranked and possible premade stomping (there are still too many premades who like to stomp newbies rather than help them).

 

I would be up to doing some sort of PVP clinic but this would have to arranged with 15-20 ppl online to allow teaching of strategies etc.... this is not dueling but trying to teach people how to complement other classes strengths/weaknesses.

 

RP

 

Honestly I haven't done any RP since Lord Ieldis days and due to my casual nature (well I play a lot but casually ) I don't have the time to invest in this. ZuZu may be the better person to ask here.

[SikeruT]

There is only one way of making the server a better place, and it's by teaching new people rather than just tossing them aside with the rest of the meat for pugs. You have to be both, patient and careful. You don't want them to think you're the ONLY solution to their newbieness, and you don't want them to become self-righteous ego-monsters. The solution to the issue on both, PvP and PvE is to start cross-guild + cross-faction groups willing to open up to the fresh and new, and share what they know about their classes/roles.

 

This has been attempted in the past, but it's always been a monumental failure because of conflicts of ego and people losing trail of the main goal and focusing only on who's got the biggest saber.

 

First I would love to know if we want to actually forget about the size of our egos for a moment and realize that at least 95% of the server isn't on a competitive gameplay level, and that in order to stop the masses of good talents from leaving the server, we would have to actually do something about the other 95%.

 

I think BC has colourful and variated niches of good talents and people that know their stuff and how to get things done, but there's also a lot of people who would make their opinion more valuable by having a bad attitude towards the rest of the community rather than actually trying to share it openly and in a good way.

 

And then there's the other side of the crowd, those that in order to avoid that kind of attitude issues close themselves on a tight group of people and try to work the way they think is the right way, even if it isn't.

 

My point is, that, if we are gonna try and make this thing work, once and for all, WE ALL need to forget about size of sabers, epeen, who's the more talented and who's a total newbie, who's competitive and who's casual, sit together on a voice chat and figure out what to do about the lack of talent on 95% of the server. Labels can wait until after a month into 3.0, can't they?

 

Yes, I know, this is an MMO, so there will be people that would rather get known by the size of their sabers than by having fame of leading successful groups into competitive gameplay, but I'm willing to bet there is at least 50 persons that would set that aside and work towards 3.0 with more than just themselves.

Edited October 21, 2014 by SikeruT

[JballaPartTwo]

God I can't believe I'm going to actually post.

 

As someone who played on this server avidly since the old server mergers (R.I.P. Vrook Lamar) The quality of this server is probably worse than every other server. I can't give much insight on the RP scene, but I can throw my two cents in about PvP and PvE.

 

PvP: This server used to have a really healthy PvP community, from when Knights of Tython and Black Suns where around, with Exiles and Ascension Strikes Back, Grim Determination, AOE, DoA, Source, Imperial Fist. There were so many fun people, whom to which I still miss. Around 2.0, the server started to cripple, for PvP and PvE. For PvP, the only "Active guilds you could say were Infamous, Ascension, Grim D, and Retaliation, and the only Ranked that happened on this server was between Ascension and Grim determination, with Infamous and Retaliation whenever they wanted to. The population wasn't amazing, but wasn't bad. Then server transfers came out. ITK left, and Infamous stayed to my knowledge. This was the end of " Competitive PvP" on BC, aside from your occasional intense reg. The server kept in slow decline, and as of now, although I don't play much here anymore, now its full of half empty warzones, and the idiots that were bottom of the barrel, are now some of the better players on this server. The PvP scene here is extremely casual, nothing more, nothing less. Just with added **** talk because people are salty.

 

PvE: Same deal. Its extremely casual, and while farming Hardmodes every week is cool and all, the only group that I've seen even trying nightmare content, is Dwbi, or what's left of them. And no offense to them, since they're super nice, and fun people, but most of them aren't great. They're just who is left.

 

Tl;Dr, this server is full of casuals, and if you want to prepare for 3.0, do it in a casual way, with lots of group events, its what this server loves. My hands hurt.

Edited October 21, 2014 by JballaPartTwo

[Rollbacks]

I don't disagree with any of the gripes being made here. The server is in a very bad place, plain and simple. The top guilds have all gone, and while it's certainly understandable why they did, the doing itself just cripples the server overall. Remember the progression races between the top PVE Guilds? Doesn't exist anymore, hence the progression thread itself is relatively slow/dead. Competition causes people to rise up to the challenge but as it stands the server has been so depleted by guilds leaving and players leaving (Either to another server or just leaving the game) that there's just not much left

 

However the fact that such players came from BC is evidence that players on BC aren't inherently bad, we can be good and we can succeed. We just need to rebuild what we've lost, which quite frankly was a hell of a lot. Being an RP server (and a relatively small one) we won't necessarily have the pool of talent that some of the other servers enjoy but that's just an excuse, we need a solution.

 

Players have to want to do progression raiding, otherwise they won't or they won't put much work into it. So in that respect I agree with Thor that we need an established guild to lead the way, so other guilds/players will either want to be part of that or to be as good as them or better. DWBI is an excellent guild and indeed they have a lot of nice and helpful members, however they too have gone a bit inactive and we should not look solely to them to represent BC progression, thats part of the problem. There are quite a few guilds on BC that are doing Nightmare raiding aside from DWBI, but what's being overlooked here is that these guilds are NOT established NiM raiding guilds, so its a process that takes time. Those players/guilds left the server, so these new players/guilds are rising up to fill the void. We aren't competitive as far as raiding goes with other servers at the moment but it's not due to lack of trying, we just lost the top end of our playerbase and are working to replace them and move forward. Some of the players/guilds doing Nightmare now may not have even known what NiM was when Epic/Hit and Run were on BC, so just put that in perspective

 

So heading into 3.0 I think we will see more guilds prepared for the next tier of NIM content as the current guilds continue to grow and improve, however in addition to that it'd be great to just work toward building a more interactive community as a whole. Anyone ever notice how dead our server forums are compared to others? Even other RP servers. In addition to that, bringing more people into doing HM/NIM raiding either by the idea's Madalene/Blue suggested or other methods

 

No, BC won't ever compete with Harbinger or Shadowlands as far as how good our servers progression is, but we can be a lot better than we are now and be respected

 

So count me in for this idea, and as I've tried to gather GM's pubside before for a summit I'm pretty sure there are many others who are as well, even if they don't check this thread

[bluecheesebandit]

I appreciate the thoughts shared on the problems BC faces but I think what you all have said is mostly already known. I'm more interested in pushing the conversation towards what can be done to correct the failings or gaps in BC.

 

For PVP, it certainly has to come from a community perspective that transcends guilds. If a ranked scene is to happen (or just improving regs) that has to come in a way that welcomes new player participation and encourages more people to que for ranked. That is where true competition takes place, not in regs where **** talking and name calling is perpetuated.

 

For PVE, while one guild or two guilds have the potential to get clears, that still really isn't a solution at all. Getting a large number of people into a friendly community where distinctions are dropped between people based on superficial judgements such as guild tags etc (something that I have NOT done well and something I wish to do better in the future) so that we can share raiding as a server is huge. My attempt at Hateful Entity some time back failed largely because I wrongfully discriminated against people who I made superficial judgements against, and I ended up with a team of people who could not execute. NiM clears are not and should not be the only focus however. Even breaking down further to HM and SM levels, simply getting people more familiar with one another is HUGE for PVE. Filling a friends list is very important thing. I've suggested leftovers as a place to start that community but I have not heard much from the larger PVE community on this; most guilds can't be bothered to see beyond themselves which I find unfortunate.

[Haivon]

Being in DWBI and their Imperial Progression group, the statements said about them is pretty true. The only time of the week you'll see their members online is to raid on impside, cuz impside pimpside. Their Pubside Progression group just fell apart when their Healer was too busy with College, so he wasn't able to make it to raids (All this happened when Zuhara started raiding with them, coincidence? I THINK NOT! It's funny cuz Zuhara can't reply to this cuz he banned from forums. So Zuhara you're a stinky poop huehuehue). I do not believe we need an established Guild that needs to lead this Server's progression, rather a group of people. I heard Jung-Ma, which, fyi, has far worse Progression & PvP than this Server, created something called a Council or something and each member has his or her own experience in an aspect of the game, this was a while ago and I'm unsure if this still exists. But from what I've heard this thing had a somewhat of an impact, once again I've only heard it, never have I seen it.

 

Nightmare Casuals (DWBI's impside prog) tried to do Hateful with Tomb of Sorrows but ToS' progression group disbanded before we got the chance to even enter the instance (Some of it being our fault seeing as Zuhara broke his computer). While I do agree with that Madelene said, egos are too big and are interfering with our being a harmonious server where everybody is happy and all, but then again these egotistical noobs linking their achievements on gen chat (Not saying that I don't, but I have my reasons) should be motivation for the everybody elses to atleast attempt out-do the elitists. But there seems to be no effort, so on this Server, really, if you're an elitist and have achievements to show for it no one can do much about you, since they won't be having the achievements to sit yo *ss down.

 

But yeah, I sort of agree with what everyone else has said.

[bsbrad]

As always I am more than willing to put my ego aside and help to build the community in whatever way I can.

 

I think having scheduled events, PvP clinics, raiding (whatever level) and even other group content would be a good idea.

 

I suggest we try to arrange times for when people want to do these. I am typically on most nights and early mornings if people need any advice I can give. I can usually be found on imp side on one of my nabi's (look for cowboy funk they will know how to find me). I would be willing to setup a time to do casual raiding to help newcomers into raiding and can fill in the slots needed. I will talk to some of my guildies to see if they are willing to help in this endeavor.

 

Maybe if we can get a couple of the bigger guilds to arrange a guild summit on a neutral planet or host the guild leaders on voice chat. PvP will always be an issue as this is typically where the trolls and egos live. The only thing I can think of for this is to help arrange clinics or bring back kickball (which worked for awhile until egos got in the way).

[SnowmanSD]

This server has had its ups and downs for sure. I think the main problem its been having is the lack of communication and organization. School and work def prevent me from setting up or organizing any sort of structured PvP for new players but if anyone who still uses the forums has a idea and will actually step up and lead then I would be glad to help just for the servers sake.

[Ehbuse]

There has been a lot of good points brought up here.

 

One I would like to touch on is attitude. People on this server have a terrible attitude towards new and/or existing guilds / people who are trying to breech into progression / PVP. To get into HM content you need to be very well geared (for the operation in question) and you need to be friends with said people forming the op, or be in a guild with them. It s damn near impossible to get into anything because of the elitist attitude that most clearing guilds and people have towards newer players. (on a RP server too!)

 

I think to get more people into NiM content and progression, a few people and / or guilds need to make it a point to bring people into raids, even a few people each run. Get the general population more familiar with the endgame raiding scene, then they can go out and teach others (or clear with their guilds)

 

For pvp: the trash talk just needs to stop. People need to be taught as a whole, instead of yelled at. Yes, there are idiots. Yes, he just let a non stealth class cap his hypergate without a single call. But don't need to go into fleet chat and rage on him/her.

 

I'm just rambling now, hope this makes sense to some one.

[bluecheesebandit]

To get into HM content you need to be very well geared (for the operation in question) and you need to be friends with said people forming the op, or be in a guild with them. It s damn near impossible to get into anything because of the elitist attitude that most clearing guilds and people have towards newer players. (on a RP server too!)

 

I think to get more people into NiM content and progression, a few people and / or guilds need to make it a point to bring people into raids, even a few people each run. Get the general population more familiar with the endgame raiding scene, then they can go out and teach others (or clear with their guilds).

 

I'm actually amazed you've experienced this. For me, getting into HM was a long, long time coming with a group that I came from SM with and we progressed and grew into without outside influence. However, for others, I have pulled many people into HM raids and formed many HM pugs. Leftovers is mostly the place where I've been doing pugs, but a lot of friends groups happen as well. Compared to what I've seen and heard of other servers, this is the least elitist servers around.

 

However, you've got to be careful calling people elitist. I personally think running parsec and a voice program is absolutely necessary during a HM raid, and all dps should always run parsec whether or not the rest of the group has been running it or not. I've been called elitist by people who refuse to join parsec, or elitist because I select other people over them who have proven to be better from in raid parses. Just because someone doesn't want to take an inexperienced player doesn't mean they're elitist. You have to make yourself viable as a player in HM. Study up, know fights, and know your class well.

[Ehbuse]

I'm actually amazed you've experienced this. For me, getting into HM was a long, long time coming with a group that I came from SM with and we progressed and grew into without outside influence. However, for others, I have pulled many people into HM raids and formed many HM pugs. Leftovers is mostly the place where I've been doing pugs, but a lot of friends groups happen as well. Compared to what I've seen and heard of other servers, this is the least elitist servers around.

 

However, you've got to be careful calling people elitist. I personally think running parsec and a voice program is absolutely necessary during a HM raid, and all dps should always run parsec whether or not the rest of the group has been running it or not. I've been called elitist by people who refuse to join parsec, or elitist because I select other people over them who have proven to be better from in raid parses. Just because someone doesn't want to take an inexperienced player doesn't mean they're elitist. You have to make yourself viable as a player in HM. Study up, know fights, and know your class well.

 

I agree with you, I would always go into parsec and VoIP. That's not what I'm talking about, that's all common sense. Without an achievement I wouldn't expect any less.

 

What I mean is their attitude. Never called anyone an elitist, just said that a good chunk of the HM community act this way. Especially towards newer folk

[crayehal]

For players that are new to Nightmare raiding, especially healers and tanks, you need to have a consistent group.

This. Consistency is very important since the group builds up experience together. But before even getting here, there has to be a pool of 55s interested in raiding. These 55s should at least know the mechanics from KP and EC SM & HM since the concepts from these ops are used again in other ops.

[bluecheesebandit]

So with all of this said is there a group of people who want to undertake steps to help improve the server, and give a boost to pvp, rp, and pve as a whole? Or will this largely be like it was last time where I got lots of people to show up and listen but no action taken?

[raidmac]

Being in DWBI and their Imperial Progression group, the statements said about them is pretty true. The only time of the week you'll see their members online is to raid on impside, cuz impside pimpside. Their Pubside Progression group just fell apart when their Healer was too busy with College, so he wasn't able to make it to raids (All this happened when Zuhara started raiding with them, coincidence? I THINK NOT! It's funny cuz Zuhara can't reply to this cuz he banned from forums. So Zuhara you're a stinky poop huehuehue). I do not believe we need an established Guild that needs to lead this Server's progression, rather a group of people. I heard Jung-Ma, which, fyi, has far worse Progression & PvP than this Server, created something called a Council or something and each member has his or her own experience in an aspect of the game, this was a while ago and I'm unsure if this still exists. But from what I've heard this thing had a somewhat of an impact, once again I've only heard it, never have I seen it.

 

Nightmare Casuals (DWBI's impside prog) tried to do Hateful with Tomb of Sorrows but ToS' progression group disbanded before we got the chance to even enter the instance (Some of it being our fault seeing as Zuhara broke his computer). While I do agree with that Madelene said, egos are too big and are interfering with our being a harmonious server where everybody is happy and all, but then again these egotistical noobs linking their achievements on gen chat (Not saying that I don't, but I have my reasons) should be motivation for the everybody elses to atleast attempt out-do the elitists. But there seems to be no effort, so on this Server, really, if you're an elitist and have achievements to show for it no one can do much about you, since they won't be having the achievements to sit yo *ss down.

 

But yeah, I sort of agree with what everyone else has said.

 

LOL was zu permabanned? or is it a temp ban? I will say that EGOs are what should be pushing people to clear content. If I recall correctly there was animosity between the large raiding guilds when I first started playing, and this pushed them all to clear content. There were rivalries, but everyone was for the most part cordial with each other.

 

 

and Cavy, just for you. *flashes world 5th dread master chievo.

Edited October 24, 2014 by raidmac

[flyersfan]

As someone that's been considering a move to BC from Jung Ma, this is a nice thread to see. Unfortunately for me, I'm not seeing a lot of talk about RP. Is that not big on this RP server or do those people just not participate on the forums? If it's the former, then hopefully I can help bring some RP to BC whenever I arrive.

 

If anyone has more info/input on RP on BC, then I'd be very interested to see that here.