Jydradi Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I'm saying this as a player who already unlocked all the options to make FtP as much like the subscriber experience as possible. The game is fun, the story is awesome, it's a VERY solid Star Wars experience, but EA is SERIOUSLY mishandling several key aspects, which is driving away customers. The main thing is that unlike more successful free-to-play games, which reward you for spending money, SWTOR punishes you for NOT spending money. They do this by holding back basic game features, unless you pay to unlock them. These are game features like having enough action bars to hold all your character's abilities, and trading with other players, things that are vital to the game experience. Then, the fun things that you would pay for in a normal Free To play game, are randomized in SWTOR, so you can't just pick out what you want, you have to purchase random packs that may or may not contain the item you want. I'll be honest, EA would have received a great deal more money from me if I could just buy the cosmetic outfits/mounts/color/weapons that I want. I gave up buying their random item packs very early on. If you can tolerate those issues, SWTOR is very worth it. But the fact that the word 'tolerate' even applies in this context is a bad sign. The thing is, EA wouldn't even have to remove the random cartel packs to fix this. Just offer the individual items at a reasonable price, like $10 for outfits, $20 for mounts, and offer them alongside the random cartel packs at their existing price. I know I would spend more money on SWTOR every month, rather than what I do now, which is maybe $20 a year (not counting expansions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalfear Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I'm saying this as a player who already unlocked all the options to make FtP as much like the subscriber experience as possible. ... rather than what I do now, which is maybe $20 a year (not counting expansions). easy solution to ALL of your problems To get the FULL Subscriber experience BECOME A SUBSCIBER Just the fact you can seriously post here whining that you cant get the full on subscriber experience as a F2P player is sickening and disgusting to me. its $10.00-$15.00/months ONLY! Support the game if you play the game (which you clearly do) and thats coming from a fairly ANTI EA gamer. Pay the damn subscription already Personally I think they give you way to much for your pathetic $20.00/year you spend (cause we all know you play game as much as any subscriber does already) Edited October 12, 2014 by Kalfear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 According to every study ever random packs make more money than selling the items individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atma Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 easy solution to ALL of your problems To get the FULL Subscriber experience BECOME A SUBSCRIBER Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlBuzzard Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I agree. There really is no such thing as FtP. Someone pays the bill one way or another. As a full subscriber you get the benefits of everything available. (I've been one since the beginning). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jydradi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) According to every study ever random packs make more money than selling the items individually. Well, partially. The studies done were skewed, one sided and done without a real control group. They advertised the cartel packs with all the flash and 'wow' factor, and placed highly desirable items in them, then offered a very small amount of rather dull and plain items individually, then concluded the cartel boxes were better. That's a really skewed conclusion, and that's why the company that owns STO changed their shopping policies so drastically. That's why I wasn't suggesting removing the random boxes, but rather also offering the same items individually at an increased price. You'll notice EA is already going that way, offering narrower random boxes alongside their cartel packs, and you can tell they're seeing success because they're offering more and more. It's true that psychologically speaking, most people will choose the unknown box over the sure item, that's why it's good business to offer the cartel packs, I'm saying it's better business to cater to both sensibilities, rather than relying on only the gambling factor. All I'm saying is if they take that next step and open a full-service shop, I, for one, will be spending a lot more money here. Edited October 12, 2014 by Jydradi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jydradi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 I agree. There really is no such thing as FtP. Someone pays the bill one way or another. As a full subscriber you get the benefits of everything available. (I've been one since the beginning). I've been here since beta. It's not about me. It's about all the people who quit or refuse to play because of the negative policies. I don't claim to be able to quote numbers, but personally I lost two guilds of 100+ players when nearly everyone quit over the FtP policies. And if that's not good enough, the fact that they had to merge servers, and the populations are still this low should be. I spent the money I did on the features I did for a specific purpose, and part of that was so that when I made this suggestion, it would be from a position of having put my money where my mouth is, NOT from a position of trying to argue to get free stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickious Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 If it didn't make them money, they wouldn't sell it that way. I'm sure EA has people who analyze it. For better or for worse, EA has it down to an art for pinching money out of his customers. I might be a bit biased to change myself, I actually benefit from the current system. People sell their junk from the Cartel Packs, I get items without spending any real money. Had it worked the other way, I suspect there would be far fewer items on the GTN concerning CM items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagikFingerz Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I'd really like to see these studies people keep referring to. Edited October 12, 2014 by MagikFingerz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jydradi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 If it didn't make them money, they wouldn't sell it that way. I'm sure EA has people who analyze it. For better or for worse, EA has it down to an art for pinching money out of his customers. I might be a bit biased to change myself, I actually benefit from the current system. People sell their junk from the Cartel Packs, I get items without spending any real money. Had it worked the other way, I suspect there would be far fewer items on the GTN concerning CM items. That's the beauty of what I'm suggesting. You would still be in business, they would still be selling cartel packs. The GTN market would still be viable because paying credits for items is just more practical than not (other wise the gold farmers would be doing all the business), but there's a lot of stuff in old packs that simply isn't available anymore. In addition, people like you would be able to analyze the market, and make smart choices about what to buy and resell, rather than relying ONLY on luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jydradi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I'd really like to see these studies people keep referring to. They aren't hard to find. Google is your friend. Numerous companies have done the same study over and over, and it's always the same result. Very often the same kind of attempts to skew the results the way the company wants, too. Like when Square Enix printed off twice as many Chrono Trigger games than there were 3ds' sold, then reported that there was not enough interest in the series to justify any more games. Edited October 12, 2014 by Jydradi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimmuJanKaarl Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Wow, why the vehemence from people? I'm been a sub since launch and I have no problem with what the OP is saying. My personal belief is that the profits from the CM far outweigh those from subscriptions. Subscriptions make no sense other than existing simply because people are willing to pay them on top of using the CM. I think what the OP is asking for: give people what they want in terms of the cosmetic items via direct sales on the CM and get rid of gamble packs. My guess is that -- while, yes, the gamble packs probably made money initially -- they haven't been making nearly as much money and the paradigm will probably change because people have wised up to how much they aren't getting relative to how much they are spending on the gamble packs. I used to spend money on gamble packs then stopped quite a while ago because the one or two nice things the packs offer simply aren't worth the money i'm certain to spend to get them. There has been at least one instance where I bought two hypercrates and didn't get a single rare item -- not the garbage purple "rares" that everyone gets, i mean the rares that actually take a lot of packs to get, like the bantha mounts, etc. So that said, I'd be more than willing to spend the equivalent cost of two hypercrates to just get the thing i wanted in the first place and save myself a lot of frustration, and go back to making a much more significant contribution to the income stream of the game, thereby funding the development of more and better content. My point is that, in my opinion, the current model simply isn't sustainable. Yes i'm sure the pencil-pushers and number-crunches have determined that things were profitable, but i'm sure as they close more fiscal periods, things will look less and less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Why they use packs and not direct item sales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneirophrenia Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I never understood why the credit limits for F2P and preferred were set to such low figures considering how easy is it is to accumulate credits in-game. The existence of 600k escrow transfers on the cartel market is also quite baffling considering F2P/preferred can't hold that much and subs don't need it to begin with. Seems like that particular consumable has effectively become a BW sanctioned conduit to subscriber profiteering. Loansharking and paycheck lenders come immediately to mind. And no, I'm not a F2P or preferred player, not even for a single day. I have however played several other MMOs with basic/premium/subscription options and the TOR model does seem excessively restrictive in comparison. Edited October 12, 2014 by Oneirophrenia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I posted this back when the free-to-play change was announced. The thread received one reply. As we all know, SW:TOR is going Free-to-Play. This is a great move. I know roughly a dozen lapsed subscribers who are going to be giving the game another shot. However, there is one little thing that other F2P MMOs have taught me: they can be bloody obnoxious with shoving their product in the collective face of the playerbase. Take, for example, Lord of the Rings Online - a game that SW:TOR is following pretty closely in its ongoing development. I loved LotRO. Played it constantly. I was even excited when it went free to play, as I am now for SW:TOR. But the game wore my patience very thin, very quickly. Attempting to create a particular class (that I once had access to)? Please buy for X amount of Turbine tokens! Out of character slots? Same deal. Going into a new zone (again, that I could once freely roam)? Give us cash! Kill something? Buy this experience boost to level faster! Seriously, no matter what you were doing, they were constantly bugging you for more money. It honestly reminded me of old arcade machines flashing "INSERT COIN!" although it was much less endearing. I haven't played LotRO since. I've tried. I even logged in earlier this week, but I couldn't stand it in there. Just running back to town from a farm, I was hounded by the demands for cash. Now, don't get me wrong. I love free to play games. I love giving those games my money. But not when the constantly demand it. I've probably dropped $500 into League of Legends since it released, and about $50 into Dota 2 and it hasn't even released yet! Why? Because they don't demand it from me (well, Dota 2 chests are close). My money is available. I know that I can buy certain things. I know which of those things I want. Allow me to make the decision to buy them. Don't pester me to give me your cash, or you simply won't be seeing it. As they say, "If you build it, they will come." You don't need to be reminding people to head their every step of their journey. My money is as good as yours as long as you don't ask for it. The second I feel annoyed by the prompts is the second I stop playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeters Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 It's not about me. It's about all the people who quit or refuse to play because of the negative policies. Of the seven people I've tried to suggest swtor to, either brand new or lapsed subscribers after the f2p option went live, only one has actually stuck around. The rest all stopped after at most twenty minutes because they just couldn't be bothered dealing with the restrictions imposed upon them at every turn. I've no idea how representative that is, but that's been my personal experience of it. I'm not especially surprised, either. Swtor's f2p model is primarily based around throwing annoyances at people, then offering paid methods of temporarily bypassing or reducing that annoyance. When your first experience of a game is of being annoyed on purpose, I don't see why anyone not already invested in keeping playing would stick around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I've been here since beta. It's not about me. It's about all the people who quit or refuse to play because of the negative policies. I don't claim to be able to quote numbers, but personally I lost two guilds of 100+ players when nearly everyone quit over the FtP policies. And if that's not good enough, the fact that they had to merge servers, and the populations are still this low should be. I spent the money I did on the features I did for a specific purpose, and part of that was so that when I made this suggestion, it would be from a position of having put my money where my mouth is, NOT from a position of trying to argue to get free stuff. Well, there have been independent studies done over the years both in the industry and out of the industry that analyze and catagorize the psychology of this. Time and again, it shows that, in the end, more profit is to be had by selling the random stuff rather than selling each item individually. That fact that some of the stuff is locked behind RNG ends up being irrevlevant - just about everything in the CM is available in game for purchase via credits. There is no need for BioWare to change anything with the current system in place. Don't want to gamble on RNG? Let someone else spend the coin and simply pick it up on the GTN. Don't have enough creds? Farm a little or simply convert some CC to creds via the market. It's really can't get any easier than that. In the end, it seems that EA, and many other Pubs/Devs are doing something right since, SWTOR in particular, is more popular and more profitable than it has ever been. It is consistently in the top 10 moneymakers for income generated. Yes there are some annoying restrictions (some of which are eliminated simply by spending only 5 whole dollars one single time in the CM), but those are the drawbacks that happen when a purely sub based game implements a free to play option. That's something people need to understand - this isn't a Free to Play game. This is a subscription based game with a Free to Play option. Of course Free to Play will be limited, and in some instances annoyingly so. Quite frankly, there are worse methods of Free to Play out there. Like WoW, F2P here is pretty much a glorified trial - and you get a heck of a lot for SWTOR's free trial. I support the Freemium/B2P/F2P business model in this industry wholeheartedly, but people really need to get their heads out of their arses and start thinking with a modicum of common sense. There is really nothing all that bad about the business model as implemented for this game. And it shows in the numbers, no reason to change it at this point. Edited October 12, 2014 by TravelersWay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callaron Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I originally thought SWTOR's F2P system was terrible, in fact I facepalmed when I first saw it announced and went "Oh great, like such a horribly designed mess will safe the game." but guess what, I was wrong. The system works, that's something the numbers from the last two years have shown. Way too many F2Pers are cheap vultures, who will never give anything back despite getting several hundred hours of entertainment from the game they enjoy, so I'm not surprised a system that strongarms them into doing so to some degree is proving more profitable than those who rely on "Please buy something nice in our store and support the game you love!". PWE, one of the most successful F2P MMORPG publishers operates on a similar system, but instead gives you the illusion of choice - you can grind for weeks to buy store currency for players, or you can simply use your credit card. Their games highly push you towards option number two by giving you very limited inventory and bank space while filling your inventory with items you're supposed to collect and then combine into upgrades, while somehow still managing to hold onto loot to sell, and upgrades that you don't have the level for yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touche Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 As far as I'm concerned, they could stick three dead skunks in a box, seal it for year and give it to F2P people as what they get for re-subbing and I still wouldn't care at all about them. It's free for you, so you cant play all the game? boo-friggin-hooo. pay the small 15 bucks a month and quit complaining. You guys are like the friend who asks for a dollar, then sees your wallet has 20's in it and asks for more. End of the story is one simple thing, if you aren't paying for it, then you don't have any right to complain, and if you are paying for cartel stuff and don't like that then its just as simple, don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I support the Freemium/B2P/F2P business model in this industry wholeheartedly, but people really need to get their heads out of their arses and start thinking with a modicum of common sense. There is really nothing all that bad about the business model as implemented for this game. And it shows in the numbers, no reason to change it at this point. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Way too many F2Pers are cheap vultures, who will never give anything back despite getting several hundred hours of entertainment from the game they enjoy, so I'm not surprised a system that strongarms them into doing so to some degree is proving more profitable than those who rely on "Please buy something nice in our store and support the game you love!". /100% agree. Which is NOT to imply that all F2P players are in fact cheap vultures. But there are different demographics within the Free segment of the player population. Far from it IMO. Some are genuinely interested in the game and want to try it before investing in it. Some simply lack the finances to just blanket subscribe to an MMO each and every month. HOWEVER, let's not pretend that there is not a notable segment of the Free players that are in fact exactly what Callaron has portrayed here. We are stuck with the genuine freeloaders because the nature of the business model cannot exclude them from play. So.. like many things in real life... we the players are presented with some less desirable things in our pursuit of the desirable. Edited October 12, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I never understood why the credit limits for F2P and preferred were set to such low figures considering how easy is it is to accumulate credits in-game. The existence of 600k escrow transfers on the cartel market is also quite baffling considering F2P/preferred can't hold that much and subs don't need it to begin with. Seems like that particular consumable has effectively become a BW sanctioned conduit to subscriber profiteering. Loansharking and paycheck lenders come immediately to mind. And no, I'm not a F2P or preferred player, not even for a single day. I have however played several other MMOs with basic/premium/subscription options and the TOR model does seem excessively restrictive in comparison. As far as I understand, transferring credits from escrow dumps those credits into your balance, so you do have access to those funds. So, if you have 300k and use a 600k transfer (and have the funds in escrow naturally) you would then have 900k. The max amount you can carry does not change....any money you make is still deposited in escrow since you are above 300k. This just allows you to carry and spend more than 300k, temporarily of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 /100% agree. Which is NOT to imply that all F2P players are in fact cheap vultures. But there are different demographics within the Free segment of the player population. Far from it IMO. Some are genuinely interested in the game and want to try it before investing in it. Some simply lack the finances to just blanket subscribe to an MMO each and every month. HOWEVER, let's not pretend that there is not a notable segment of the Free players that are in fact exactly what Callaron has portrayed here. We are stuck with the genuine freeloaders because the nature of the business model cannot exclude them from play. So.. like many things in real life... we the players are presented with some less desirable things in our pursuit of the desirable. Yes, if I remember right a few studies have indicated that less than 10 percent of free players spend any money, but of those players, on average, they spend more than subscribers. That does not appear to be the case in this game however, since Bioware clearly stated most purchases were made by subs. So the numbers here might be quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaden_Antilles Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I started as FTP because I wanted to play the game for a bit and see if I enjoyed it enough to subscribe. Well being the SW geek that I am, it only took two hours for me to want to subscribe, however I had to wait until the next payday (just over two weeks away) to actually sub. Within that time I saw that playing as FTP would be very annoying. The limited quick bars and credit limits being the most hindering (imo). Boy was I happy when I was able to sub Been subbed since Dec 2010 and this is the first and only game that I've liked enough to actually subscribe to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalfear Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Yes, if I remember right a few studies have indicated that less than 10 percent of free players spend any money, but of those players, on average, they spend more than subscribers. That does not appear to be the case in this game however, since Bioware clearly stated most purchases were made by subs. So the numbers here might be quite different. I didnt pay any attention to EAs stats (normally dont honestly as to often self serving so ultimately unreliable at best) but based off what I read on different forums, hear in game on general F2P come off to me as people only playing if its free no amount of BONUSES will get these types to pay anything long term. I played Rift, Defiance, Neverwinter, and some other games with F2P folk (I always sub games I play) and Ive never had the complete and utter disdain and dislike for F2P that I do for them in this game. So I bet the metrics are very different for this game as the F2P groups here come off as extremely greedy, selfish, and cheap who if ever found themselves in the position of having to pay anything at all on a ongoing basis. They would pack up and leave to a different game Totally do not buy that the majority of F2P players in this game add anything constructive at all to the game or population. Yes I know there is some good F2P players out there who do support game here and there But I think they are the minority of that group. As I said, played games with F2P players before in other titles with out issue or problem. But this one title stands out as F2P players being complete waste of space IMO. They want everything handed to them for free and complain when anyone dares expect them to support the game they play 30-40-50 hours a week in. Honestly I think you should have to pay a subscription fee of something if you play more then 5 hours a week in the game. Maybe make subs pricing on a scale determined by time spent in game would be a ultimate solution? But if a game is good enough (any game) to play more then 5 hours a week in, then it should be good enough to receive some form of financial recourse from the player playing. Course I dont ever do F2P so never been on board with the whole concept For me, IF its good enough to play its good enough to support and when I stop playing I stop supporting pretty simple ideology I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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