Lorewise, Revan not teaming up with the Republic makes no sense

[Darth_Wicked]

What. I'm. Saying. Is that people change. And in any case, yes your theory is LESS flawed than mine. Will you please get off your high horse of superiority?

 

What are you even talking about? What "high horse of superiority"?

 

It's Revan's CURRENT state that I find displeasing, not the facets of his character that have been previously established. He is CLEARLY not the same as he was at the end of Revan, at least on that we can agree.

 

I don't know.

 

By the end of "Revan", his end-goal was the same, was it not? To kill the Sith Emperor.

 

I could be wrong but judging from

and

, that hasn't changed.

 

You were implying that I DID support his actions and "ends justify the means." I do not.

 

Fairly sure I didn't and if I did, it wasn't intentional.

 

Again, it's a fictional setting.

 

Different time of his life, when he had all his memories back, but that's not my point.

 

Your point is that the LS Revan is the CANON REVAN.

 

Issue is, you seem not to realize -- or perhaps just choose to -- that Revan himself accepts what he was and what he is. He doesn't back off from that and it's something I find pleasing in the character.

 

I wasn't talking about his actions during TOR. It is PRECISELY these actions that people like me have noticed don't seem in character.

 

And as I have pointed out repeatedly, what he tries to do in TOR is not uncommon for his character.

 

Yet again, Malachor V and the Jedi Civil War, after he broke free from the Emperor's will.

 

Then what, EXACTLY, are the "ends" here? with "Shadow of Revan? What the HELL is he trying to do, other than being a conveniant end-game boss? I'm not the only one who is confused here. I can't see what Revan is trying to accomplish with this army. Is he preparing to attack the Empire? Okay, but why go after Republic holdings as well? I haven't played throught the Republic side of it yet, so I'm a little sketchy on those details.

 

I guess you'll have to purchase and play the expansion to find out.

 

Also, if you payed close attention to TSL, G0-T0 comments that during his initial invasion, Revan left intact plenty of Republic military installations, since he wanted to take advantage of them further down the road.

 

Right now, he doesn't have a Star Forge or Foundry to assemble his fleets of ships or assault droids. As such, he needs to rely on whatever both the Republic and Imperial defectors can provide him with.

 

, you see him aboard a Harrower-class Dreadnought for a reason.

 

From Wookiepedia: "There, he began to be seduced by the dark side of the Force, learning from the Sith knowledge contained within the Academy, and Revan introduced Malak to the dark side as well. Though under the thrall of the dark side, Revan did not renounce the Jedi ways initially, and he and Malak continued to battle the Mandalorians."

 

That implies, at least to me, that he had already fallen by the time the Mass Shadow Generator was activated.

 

 

Once more, you insist on justifying the character, every step of the way.

 

How? I have yet to see you do anything but insult me and people who hold the same opinion as I do.

 

Where have I insulted you again?

 

Disagreeing and pointing out flaws in your theory is not an "insult" last I checked.

 

I have brought up several points and tried to see your own through an objective lense. You seem 100% certain of yourself, while I am willing to admit I could be mistaken.

 

You are mistaken from the ground up truth be told.

 

As long as you keep ignoring the character for what it is, every single theory you come up with will come tumbling down.

 

What parts of Revan's psyche do you believe I have ignored? I am (and have always been) referencing Revan's state of might directly proceeding his capture by Vitiate. Do I think the Foundry storyarch makes sense? ...Sooooooooort of? You have to admit the absolute 180 degree turn in morality and tactics was jarring, to say the least. The whole thing just... doesn't feel right.

 

Will say it again, for the 1000th time: Even BEFORE the Foundry, will say again, BEFORE the Foundry, Revan displayed more than once genocidal tendencies.

 

Malachor V is the shining example of such.

 

There's absolutely NOTHING jarring about it. You just refuse to see it.

 

I gotta ask: Did you even played TSL?

 

And in comes Shadow of Revan. What the heck are you doing, Rev? Why are you pulling a "Warlords of Draenor" on us? And yes, World of Warcraft is doing it first, taking a "good guy" character from a previous game and turning him into a raid boss. 'Sigh.'

 

Once more, 1000th time: Revan was NEVER a good guy or rather, not the kind you claim he was.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Transairion]

 

People just refuse to see it.

 

For what is worth, considering

, I can't say I blame him. What a tool that Satele turned out to be.

 

 

"The Republic is too weak and unfocused to do what must be done. To achieve my goals, all distractions must be swept aside".

 

 

No sorry, that's not a very good explanation if you can even consider it an explanation at all. I'm pretty sure if you consider something "weak and a distraction" you leave them alone, not turn on your own allies and genocide them along with your enemy.

 

Especially when you could just keep teaming up with them anyway and have a weak ally instead of a weak enemy.

 

I'm pretty sure when Revan first found the Revanites they were weak and a distraction too...

[Quickpaw]

Dunno why.

 

Because you refuse to treat me as anything more than a bratty child. My theories about what is going on are simply different than yours, using different clues that I have picked up on. Never once have I said "You are absolutely wrong." I am trying to foster intelligent and respecfull discusion, but you've done nothing but dismiss me out of hand.

 

It doesn't matter.

 

It's part of what he is.

 

What he did.

 

 

Why you can't do the same is beyond me.

 

Who he WAS. If you are trying to get me to admit Revan is defined by his past, then you must also acknoledge what you yourself said: he was ALSO a Jedi. You see one side, I see another. It may be purely semantics, but in the Foundry battle Revan yells "I was Sith! I am Jedi!"

 

What does that tell you? Revan in that moment (despite his delusions) he was trying to embrace the good in him and reject the evil that he was.

 

I am looking from all angles.

 

You clearly are not.

 

If I try to respond to that, we'll devolve into a "No, you!" I don't think my knowledge of Star Wars's EU lore is superior to yours. I'm just asking for the same courtasy in return.

 

 

After being released, he no longer can.

 

Again, you keep ignoring the most basic of stuff.

 

It was a rather bogus theory, I admit. I was using it as an example.

 

She predicts his strength will fail if Revan isn't released. He was.

 

I was disproving a theory I myself had come up with. My point was that the idea of Vitiate already being in control of Revan was unlikely, showing that I COULD, in fact, see points against my own arguement.

 

Besides, what she said had implications to the past: "His strength will fail." Ergo it must be assumed that his strength had NOT YET failed, and the Emperor was not in control. I presented a theory, and upon further reflection dismissed it.

 

And yet another misconception. A common one truth be told told but still one nonetheless.

 

Oh? What do YOU think happened to Revan after he was defeated by the Imperial strike team? For disapear he did, and we have no idea what happened.

 

Addressed that already. See above.

 

I was talking about the physical body the voice was inhabiting at the time, not the entity the voice ACTUALLY is. Is it not true that the Emperor was severely weakened by it?

From Wookiepedia: "The Emperor's Voice, formally addressed as the Voice of the Emperor by other Sith, was a position within the reconstituted Sith Empire that was held by the Sith Emperor's current host body."

Ergo, the Voice of the Emperor and the Emperor himself are one and the same entity. The Voice is the Emperor's current host.

 

Your theories, as pointed out above, are flawed in their conception, mostly because you're misremembering things I take it.

 

Could you please give me an exapmle of what I have "mis-remembered?" The things I've said that you've taken issue with are conjectures and speculation that cannot be proven either way just yet.

 

Maybe Revan wants to rid the galaxy of the Emperor, once and for all? Maybe he's set out to do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal?

?

 

Regardless, there's this that I pointed out several months ago in other threads:

 

He's coming, one way or another.

 

Huh. Interesting. It could mean a lot of things, and I won't get my hopes up JUST yet. I can't play until my REAL computer comes back from repairs. Stupid substandard laptop...

[Darth_Wicked]

"The Republic is too weak and unfocused to do what must be done. To achieve my goals, all distractions must be swept aside".

 

No sorry, that's not a very good explanation if you can even consider it an explanation at all. I'm pretty sure if you consider something "weak and a distraction" you leave them alone, not turn on your own allies and genocide them along with your enemy.

 

Especially when you could just keep teaming up with them anyway and have a weak ally instead of a weak enemy.

 

Considering

, it's actually a very good explanation. There's a reason Revan says "unfocused".

 

You just need to connect the dots. NOT everything needs to be spoon-fed.

I'm pretty sure when Revan first found the Revanites they were weak and a distraction too...

 

In light of

and

, not really.

 

Pointless sarcasm on your part aside, the answers were provided already.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

Because you refuse to treat me as anything more than a bratty child.

 

Last I checked, I am not treating you like a "bratty child".

 

However, I refuse to take you seriously considering how you twist and turn everything you find not pleasing. That much I admit.

 

My theories about what is going on are simply different than yours, using different clues that I have picked up on. Never once have I said "You are absolutely wrong." I am trying to foster intelligent and respecfull discusion, but you've done nothing but dismiss me out of hand.

 

Issue is, as stated a million times before, you are selective in your approach. You just choose to ignore whatever doesn't fit the idea you have of Revan.

 

In order to have a discussion about the character, as a whole, it simply can't be that way.

 

Who he WAS. If you are trying to get me to admit Revan is defined by his past, then you must also acknoledge what you yourself said: he was ALSO a Jedi. You see one side, I see another. It may be purely semantics, but in the Foundry battle Revan yells "I was Sith! I am Jedi!"

 

I see both sides.

 

The Jedi and Sith. The light and the dark.

 

You by your own admission seek to focus SOLELY on the "LS CANON REVAN".

 

What does that tell you? Revan in that moment (despite his delusions) he was trying to embrace the good in him and reject the evil that he was.

 

He was trying to justify to himself that committing genocide on a galactic scale was warranted, nothing more. You can see as much here.

 

If I try to respond to that, we'll devolve into a "No, you!" I don't think my knowledge of Star Wars's EU lore is superior to yours. I'm just asking for the same courtasy in return.

 

I haven't questioned your knowledge of the lore, but more so your selective approach to it. Different things.

 

It was a rather bogus theory, I admit. I was using it as an example.

 

Good.

 

I was disproving a theory I myself had come up with. My point was that the idea of Vitiate already being in control of Revan was unlikely, showing that I COULD, in fact, see points against my own arguement.

 

Besides, what she said had implications to the past: "His strength will fail." Ergo it must be assumed that his strength had NOT YET failed, and the Emperor was not in control. I presented a theory, and upon further reflection dismissed it.

 

Great.

 

Oh? What do YOU think happened to Revan after he was defeated by the Imperial strike team? For disapear he did, and we have no idea what happened.

 

 

I was talking about the physical body the voice was inhabiting at the time, not the entity the voice ACTUALLY is. Is it not true that the Emperor was severely weakened by it?

 

You said the Voice had been killed. The Voice CANNOT die, only the vessel does.

 

From Wookiepedia: "The Emperor's Voice, formally addressed as the Voice of the Emperor by other Sith, was a position within the reconstituted Sith Empire that was held by the Sith Emperor's current host body."

Ergo, the Voice of the Emperor and the Emperor himself are one and the same entity. The Voice is the Emperor's current host.

 

Why do you have to continuously rely on Wikipedia is beyond me, especially when I provided a video earlier.

 

Could you please give me an exapmle of what I have "mis-remembered?" The things I've said that you've taken issue with are conjectures and speculation that cannot be proven either way just yet.

 

Really? Let's examine that statement:

 

Malachor V destruction, which caused the death of thousands of Republic soldiers, Jedi and mandalorians? FACT.

 

Revan freeing himself from the Emperor's will and carving a path of destruction in the process, including enabling the destruction of Telos? FACT.

 

Planning to eliminate 97.8% of the Imperial population? FACT.

 

This:

True power can come only to those who embrace the transformation. There can be no compromise. Mercy, compassion, loyalty: all these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours.Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits.

 

^^ FACT.

 

- - - -

 

Anything else equally relevant that I forgot by any chance?

 

Huh. Interesting. It could mean a lot of things, and I won't get my hopes up JUST yet. I can't play until my REAL computer comes back from repairs. Stupid substandard laptop...

 

Lucky me. I avoid laptops.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Quickpaw]

"A world you have to be erased from."

 

Excuse me? Going off of each of the character classes... The Knight who was the first to ever defeat the Emperor in combat? (Yes, it was the voice and the man himself is elsewhere.) Only the Sith Warrior is comperable, though the Voss voice WANTED to be killed.

The Smuggler who commanded an entire neutral FLEET?

The Trooper who commanded the best squad of Troopers in the Galaxy?

The Consular who was leader of the Rift Alliance and a member of the Jedi Council?

 

Each one of these individuals are instrumental to the Republic's efforts against the Empire, and could prove invaluable allies to Revan, yet he wants them... erased? If Revan is known for anything, it's converting intractable individuals to his side by his charisma and the logic of his arguements. Here we have Revan twirling his mustache, going "Muahahaha, I'm going to kill you all without checking if you're actually dead, muahahaha!"

 

I can see it from the Imperial side of things, if he recognizes them.

 

I suppose he could be going down the Illusive Man's path, all hubris and such, I don't know...

[Darth_Wicked]

"A world you have to be erased from."

 

Not sure what's the issue truth be told.

 

In the Foundry, Revan was defeated by the Imperial strike force. On Manaan, they destroyed his prototype, which was the basis for his Infinite Army on Rakata Prime; Sure Arkous and Darok salvaged the data but there's that.

 

On Rakata Prime, they -- or the Republic strike force -- destroyed his Infinite Army.

 

Why wouldn't Revan want to eliminate these meddlers, who keep interfering in his plans? What's the boggle?

 

Excuse me? Going off of each of the character classes... The Knight who was the first to ever defeat the Emperor in combat? (Yes, it was the voice and the man himself is elsewhere.) Only the Sith Warrior is comperable, though the Voss voice WANTED to be killed.[

The Smuggler who commanded an entire neutral FLEET?

The Trooper who commanded the best squad of Troopers in the Galaxy?

The Consular who was leader of the Rift Alliance and a member of the Jedi Council?

 

See above. He says that to an Imperial strike force.

 

To a Republic strike force, he says they "will not interfere again". Regardless, what I said earlier applies to whatever strike force faction truth be told.

 

Each one of these individuals are instrumental to the Republic's efforts against the Empire, and could prove invaluable allies to Revan, yet he wants them... erased?

 

Like I said earlier, you prefer NOT to see things for what they are.

 

It is fair to assume Revan cares little for the Republic or the Empire at this point. His main goal, judging from

and

, is still to destroy the Sith Emperor.

 

He says the exact same thing pretty much; I doubt the writers went for that line accidentally.

 

If Revan is known for anything, it's converting intractable individuals to his side by his charisma and the logic of his arguements. Here we have Revan twirling his mustache, going "Muahahaha, I'm going to kill you all without checking if you're actually dead, muahahaha!"

 

I approached that already.

 

Destroying his research facility on Manaan and then his Infinite Army on Rakata Prime is not exactly something that can fly without decisive action.

 

I can see it from the Imperial side of things, if he recognizes them.

 

I suppose he could be going down the Illusive Man's path, all hubris and such, I don't know...

 

Now you're rambling.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Quickpaw]

Last I checked, I am not treating you like a "bratty child".

 

However, I refuse to take you seriously considering how you twist and turn everything you find not pleasing. That much I admit.

 

If I have been twisting things then so have you. What I find "not pleasing" is the current depiction of Revan in the 3.0 update, not how he has developed from Jedi, to Dark Jedi, to Sith, back to Jedi, to "Gray Jedi" (after his memories came back), to troubled and dilusional Force wielder, and now... This. His actions don't make sense any more. He's become every other generic Sith, destruction for its own sake.

 

Issue is, as stated a million times before, you are selective in your approach. You just choose to ignore whatever doesn't fit the idea you have of Revan.

 

In order to have a discussion about the character, as a whole, it simply can't be that way.

 

I haven't denied anything. May I quote you from earlier?---> "Kotor Revan is not Revan." Is that not cherry picking? I acknowledge that at some points in his life he has been a proponent of the dark side of the force, but that is not ALL he is. At other times he was a servent of the lightside (which is what most people remember him being), but that is not ALL he is. He is both. What we have been presented with is not the "ends=means" type of villain, but the "kill everything because I can" villain. He's become a

where once he was a

Before that he was the player character, and then the protagonist of a book, and then a Flashpoint objective that quite frankly DIDN'T need to be there.

 

I see both sides.

 

The Jedi and Sith. The light and the dark.

 

You by your own admission seek to focus SOLELY on the "LS CANON REVAN".

 

I have yet to see you say anything about the good that Revan has done. And I'm not talking about the end of the Mando wars or the Foundry, I recognize those as the undeeded atrocaties they are. I'm talking about the begining of the Mando wars, his actions during Kotor, or during Revan. Those are as integral to his character as your examples of his war crimes.

 

He was trying to justify to himself that committing genocide on a galactic scale was warranted, nothing more. You can see as much here.

 

Of course he was. But he still believed himself to be a Jedi, acting in the best interests of the Galaxy and the Republic. Now it's just a free-for all.

 

I haven't questioned your knowledge of the lore, but more so your selective approach to it. Different things.

 

"Misremembered," have I? I've brought the facts that support my arguement, and you've brought the facts that support yours. The fact that there are facts on both sides of this arguement means neither one of us can call each other out without admitting our own bias.

 

 

That could mean a number of things. "Been reborn? My mind is clear? My power intensified?" 'Snicker' Excuse me while I pull myself together. Yes, it's valid content. Meant to hype us for the expansion, not to reveal aspects of Revan's experiances or character.

 

You said the Voice had been killed. The Voice CANNOT die, only the vessel does.

 

The Voice is the Vessel, the Emperor is the Emperor. What the Sith think is the Voice is actually the Emperor himself. The Emperor controls the Voice (the host) and the host CAN be killed.

 

Why do you have to continuously rely on Wikipedia is beyond me, especially when I provided a video earlier.

 

Because Wookiepedia is as reliable a source, being moderated continuously. Are we really going to start questioning each other's sources?

 

Really? Let's examine that statement:

 

Malachor V destruction, which caused the death of thousands of Republic soldiers, Jedi and mandalorians? FACT.

 

A fact I never disputed.

 

Revan freeing himself from the Emperor's will and carving a path of destruction in the process, including enabling the destruction of Telos? FACT.

 

"Under orders from Darth Malak, former Republic admiral Saul Karath demanded the planet's surrender; upon being rebuffed, he carried out his orders to bombard the surface."

 

Also wookiepedia is a ready site with lots of verifyable information for a person sitting in front of his computer late at night.

 

Planning to eliminate 97.8% of the Imperial population? FACT.

 

Again, a fact I never disputed.

 

This:

 

 

^^ FACT.

 

Again, a part of Revan but not ALL. Who's cherrypicking?

 

Anything else equally relevant that I forgot by any chance?

 

There are two major leaps of character change that I've been trying to reconcile:

1-The change between when he was captured and imprisonedand his actions during the Foundy. I can see this one logically since he's been down the crapper for 300 years and is more than a little bitter about it. But even Revan should have known that going to the Foundry was a mistake, first leading his enemies to it or attempting a genocide that would have ultimately HELPED the Emperor and not guaranteed his death in the first place.

2-The change between his defeat at the Foundry and his actions during Forged Alliances. I can see what he was trying to do before, and why he was doing it. Now? His actions make no sense. If anything, HE should be the one trying to unite the Galaxy against the Emperor, not trying to wipe out both sides. He was more than willing to work with the Republic before, why not now? They've proven (by the actions of our new player characters) that they are MORE than capable of doing "what needs to be done."

 

And the Revan that most people remember is the Revan from Drew's novel. The good guy that people want back. Not saying that's who he is now (good GOD he's not), but that's generally people's expectation. But they couldn't have made Revan into a pair of Republic Flashpoints without corresponing Imperial ones, so the Imperials needed a resason to "stop him." Ugh.

 

Lucky me. I avoid laptops.

 

Booey for you then.

[Darth_Wicked]

If I have been twisting things then so have you.

 

I haven't. As I said earlier many times, I accept the character in its entirety.

 

What I find "not pleasing" is the current depiction of Revan in the 3.0 update, not how he has developed from Jedi, to Dark Jedi, to Sith, back to Jedi, to "Gray Jedi" (after his memories came back), to troubled and dilusional Force wielder, and now... This. His actions don't make sense any more. He's become every other generic Sith, destruction for its own sake.

 

Last I checked, 3.0 hasn't been released yet so I dunno what you are even talking about.

 

I haven't denied anything. May I quote you from earlier?---> "Kotor Revan is not Revan." Is that not cherry picking?

 

You forgot this bit:

Also, the Revan from KoTOR was NOT Revan.

 

Revan only became whole when he recovered his mask and put it on, which ONLY happens during the "Revan" novel, long after the events of the original KoTOR. Before that, his mind was fragmented.

By pulling stuff like that, you only prove my point: You are being selective, over and over again, carefully taking what you find pleasing and discarding the rest.

 

You just did that.

 

I acknowledge that at some points in his life he has been a proponent of the dark side of the force, but that is not ALL he is. At other times he was a servent of the lightside (which is what most people remember him being), but that is not ALL he is. He is both.

 

No one ever said that's all he is.

 

You on the other hand said earlier that "CANON REVAN IS THE LS REVAN", thus trying to discard his wrong doings in the process.

 

Doesn't work that way.

 

What we have been presented with is not the "ends=means" type of villain, but the "kill everything because I can" villain. He's become a

where once he was a

Before that he was the player character, and then the protagonist of a book, and then a Flashpoint objective that quite frankly DIDN'T need to be there.

 

In your opinion of course.

 

I have yet to see you say anything about the good that Revan has done. And I'm not talking about the end of the Mando wars or the Foundry, I recognize those as the undeeded atrocaties they are. I'm talking about the begining of the Mando wars, his actions during Kotor, or during Revan. Those are as integral to his character as your examples of his war crimes.

 

Because that's a more gray area, a more sensible area, namely the one you grab onto so dearly to the point your objectivity is compromised.

 

However, if you wanna go that way, I only need to tell you this: The Promised Ones.

 

By trying to help them to reach the Promised Land, Revan only offered them a slow and gradual death, over countless decades -- if not centuries. Some good he did there for example.

 

Also, he ended up correcting a mistake he enabled to begin with: Malak.

 

You talk about as if Malak got to where he was out of his own volition, as if the merit was his own alone. It really wasn't.

 

Of course he was. But he still believed himself to be a Jedi, acting in the best interests of the Galaxy and the Republic. Now it's just a free-for all.

 

Because the stakes demand it. And as pointed out earlier, the Republic is just unfocused, with a Supreme Chancellor whose personal grudge against the Empire blinds her to any other possibilities.

 

Claiming that the Sith Emperor is dead just to strike a blow at the Empire's morale reveals as much.

 

"Misremembered," have I? I've brought the facts that support my arguement, and you've brought the facts that support yours. The fact that there are facts on both sides of this arguement means neither one of us can call each other out without admitting our own bias.

 

Mine are actually facts. Yours are selective cherry-picking.

 

Different things.

 

That could mean a number of things. "Been reborn? My mind is clear? My power intensified?" 'Snicker' Excuse me while I pull myself together. Yes, it's valid content. Meant to hype us for the expansion, not to reveal aspects of Revan's experiances or character.

 

It is what it is.

 

Yet again, you reveal you have an issue with stuff taken DIRECTLY FROM THE GAMES, whenever you don't find them pleasing.

 

It's kinda eye-rolling at this point. No offense.

 

The Voice is the Vessel, the Emperor is the Emperor. What the Sith think is the Voice is actually the Emperor himself. The Emperor controls the Voice (the host) and the host CAN be killed.

 

You are incorrect.

 

The Voice is the Emperor's essence, the conduit for his words but the Emperor's body is secured elsewhere, safe from prying eyes.

 

Again, even when FACTS are shown to you, straight from the game, you have an issue with them. Unbelievable at this point. Truly.

 

Because Wookiepedia is as reliable a source, being moderated continuously. Are we really going to start questioning each other's sources?

 

I question the fact you prefer to rely on Wookieepedia instead of a video showing footage FROM THE GAME ITSELF. It's silly.

 

A fact I never disputed.

 

You have discarded numerous times every single dark deed Revan planned to carry out.

 

"Under orders from Darth Malak, former Republic admiral Saul Karath demanded the planet's surrender; upon being rebuffed, he carried out his orders to bombard the surface."

 

Read what I said. Pay attention, since it's not that hard:

Revan freeing himself from the Emperor's will and carving a path of destruction in the process, including enabling the destruction of Telos? FACT.

 

Also wookiepedia is a ready site with lots of verifyable information for a person sitting in front of his computer late at night.

 

I prefer to rely on footage from the games themselves, thank you very much.

 

Something you take issue with. Clearly.

 

Again, a fact I never disputed.

 

Again, you have. "LS Revan is CANON", remember?

 

Again, a part of Revan but not ALL. Who's cherrypicking?

 

I NEVER said it was all, unlike you. I am merely pointing out the contrast, which you chose to dismiss or ignore repeatedly.

 

There are two major leaps of character change that I've been trying to reconcile:

1-The change between when he was captured and imprisonedand his actions during the Foundy. I can see this one logically since he's been down the crapper for 300 years and is more than a little bitter about it. But even Revan should have known that going to the Foundry was a mistake, first leading his enemies to it or attempting a genocide that would have ultimately HELPED the Emperor and not guaranteed his death in the first place.

 

And yet again, you keep ignoring Malachor V and the events of the Mandalorian Wars, even AFTER claiming you haven't disputed them earlier, in this same post.

 

Again, unbelievable.

 

2-The change between his defeat at the Foundry and his actions during Forged Alliances. I can see what he was trying to do before, and why he was doing it. Now? His actions make no sense. If anything, HE should be the one trying to unite the Galaxy against the Emperor, not trying to wipe out both sides. He was more than willing to work with the Republic before, why not now? They've proven (by the actions of our new player characters) that they are MORE than capable of doing "what needs to be done."

 

You have to play this game a bit more it would seem. In case you haven't noticed, neither side is interested in fighting the Emperor.

 

Darth Marr, on one hand, seeks to take advantage of the Emperor's absence to reforge the Empire under a new banner. In his opinion, the Emperor is gone, "dying if not dead."

 

Supreme Chancellor Saresh claims that the Emperor is dead and the Dark Council, with the rest of its followers, is coming next. In other words, a Jedi and SiS committee says the Emperor is dead and as such...

 

It must be true.

 

Connect the dots. You must. Not as hard as you think.

 

And the Revan that most people remember is the Revan from Drew's novel. The good guy that people want back. Not saying that's who he is now (good GOD he's not), but that's generally people's expectation.

 

Again, Revan wasn't a good guy or rather, the kind you claim he was.

 

Stating it repeatedly won't change that.

 

But they couldn't have made Revan into a pair of Republic Flashpoints without corresponing Imperial ones, so the Imperials needed a resason to "stop him." Ugh.

 

You're trying too hard now.

 

Booey for you then.

 

Excuse me for not liking to play on laptops.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Quickpaw]

Not sure what's the issue truth be told.

 

In the Foundry, Revan was defeated by the Imperial strike force. On Manaan, they destroyed his prototype, which was the basis for his Infinite Army on Rakata Prime; Sure Arkous and Darok salvaged the data but there's that.

 

On Rakata Prime, they -- or the Republic strike force -- destroyed his Infinite Army.

 

Why wouldn't Revan want to eliminate these meddlers, who keep interfering in his plans? What's the boggle?

 

Enemies he didn't bother to try to contact? Or at least warn? He involved hundreds of high ranking Jedi and Republic soldiers during the Foundry incident, I see no reason why he wouldn't want any of the Republic players on his side. Instead it's all shadowy manipulations, arm twisting, and general underhandedness. If he wanted to destroy the Emperor, why is the Republic on his hit list as well? He could have just ASKED for whatever dohickey was on Tython and they probably would have given it to him.

 

His tactics and personality have been drastically altered. The reason? Unknown.

 

See above. He says that to an Imperial strike force.

 

To a Republic strike force, he says they "will not interfere again". Regardless, what I said earlier applies to whatever strike force faction truth be told.

 

He could easily have explained his reasons to them, instead of just trying to nuke them. If he had used these tactics during the Jedi Civil War he would have gotten no converts at all.

 

Like I said earlier, you prefer NOT to see things for what they are.

 

And what ARE they? You cannot say, because SHADOW OF REVAN IS. NOT. OUT. YET. NONE of us can say for certainty what is going on with Revan until WE PLAY IT.

 

It is fair to assume Revan cares little for the Republic or the Empire at this point. His main goal, judging from

and

 

"I'll share everything I've learned with the Jedi." Apparantly you won't, you'll just stab everyone in the back.

 

, is still to destroy the Sith Emperor.

 

Then why does he not just come out and say it? WHAT is his justification for attacking Republic personel and holdings if what he wants is to destroy their enemy? Their MUTUAL enemy? I don't care if he thinks the Republic is weak. He thought the same of the Revanites. He's practically a legend to the Republic, he doesn't need such underhanded tactics to gain followers.

 

He says the exact same thing pretty much; I doubt the writers went for that line accidentally.

 

How many people do you think actually know the whole situation with the Emperor? Unless they're like me and cheat using youtube that is. I get the feeling people are going to have no idea what he's talking about (especially the Knights), so you can understand the rampant confusion.

 

I approached that already.

 

Destroying his research facility on Manaan and then his Infinite Army on Rakata Prime is not exactly something that can fly without decisive action.

 

"Arkous and Darok were valuable allies. But their deaths won't delay what's coming."

Not so important as to jeperdize the ultimate goal, apparantly. Whatever the hell THAT is.

 

Now you're rambling.

 

I'm noting a trend in repeating plotlines: In ME the Illusive Man thinks he's the good guy trying to save the Galaxy, but ends up being the bad guy because the Reapers are controlling him. Part of that is his hubris, the thought that "only he" has the wisdom and power to do what "needs to be done." Despite SEVERAL instances where either his power or his judgement were questionable at best. See the paralell?

[Darth_Wicked]

Enemies he didn't bother to try to contact? Or at least warn? He involved hundreds of high ranking Jedi and Republic soldiers during the Foundry incident, I see no reason why he wouldn't want any of the Republic players on his side.

 

Why would he bother contacting enemies that continuously seek to undermine him? Enemies that serve their respective factions willingly?

 

Especially considering that the Revanites follow Revan's every whim, without a second thought?

 

Also, need I remind you that the Foundry was a total wash with the Republic's backing ONLY?

 

 

Instead it's all shadowy manipulations, arm twisting, and general underhandedness. If he wanted to destroy the Emperor, why is the Republic on his hit list as well? He could have just ASKED for whatever dohickey was on Tython and they probably would have given it to him.

 

Of course they would. So would the Sith have given the one on Korriban.

 

The more time passes, the harder it is to take you seriously. No offense.

 

His tactics and personality have been drastically altered. The reason? Unknown.

 

No, they haven't.

 

Revan opted for galactic genocide in the past. Now he's doing it again. You refusing to see it won't change that.

 

I'm so sounding like a broken record.

 

He could easily have explained his reasons to them, instead of just trying to nuke them. If he had used these tactics during the Jedi Civil War he would have gotten no converts at all.

 

In case you missed

, he has all the converts he needs now.

 

Again, you're trying too hard to IGNORE what the game tells you.

 

HINT: Game > Wookieepedia

 

And what ARE they? You cannot say, because SHADOW OF REVAN IS. NOT. OUT. YET. NONE of us can say for certainty what is going on with Revan until WE PLAY IT.

 

I explained already. Repeatedly.

 

Honestly, it's kinda tiresome.

 

"I'll share everything I've learned with the Jedi." Apparantly you won't, you'll just stab everyone in the back.

 

You sound bitter. However, that's not really an argument.

 

Then why does he not just come out and say it? WHAT is his justification for attacking Republic personel and holdings if what he wants is to destroy their enemy? Their MUTUAL enemy? I don't care if he thinks the Republic is weak. He thought the same of the Revanites. He's practically a legend to the Republic, he doesn't need such underhanded tactics to gain followers.

 

I explained that already as well. Repeatedly.

 

Dunno what to tell you anymore. It just seems I'm talking to a wall, seeing you just ignore everything I type down.

 

How many people do you think actually know the whole situation with the Emperor? Unless they're like me and cheat using youtube that is. I get the feeling people are going to have no idea what he's talking about (especially the Knights), so you can understand the rampant confusion.

 

They don't need to know exactly what the Emperor wants. They do need to know that Revan seeks to destroy him.

 

If they played the Maelstrom Prison or the Foundry, they're already aware of that.

 

"Arkous and Darok were valuable allies. But their deaths won't delay what's coming."

Not so important as to jeperdize the ultimate goal, apparantly. Whatever the hell THAT is.

 

Again, bitterness, plus trying too hard.

 

You keep nitpicking on stuff without actually saying anything. The more you go for that approach, the more pointless this exchange becomes.

 

I'm noting a trend in repeating plotlines: In ME the Illusive Man thinks he's the good guy trying to save the Galaxy, but ends up being the bad guy because the Reapers are controlling him. Part of that is his hubris, the thought that "only he" has the wisdom and power to do what "needs to be done." Despite SEVERAL instances where either his power or his judgement were questionable at best. See the paralell?

 

And you are rambling yet again.

 

Also, EVERY single Bioware game or release shares identical plot traits. Dunno why this would be different, especially considering it's Revan.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

Regardless, I'm off for now. Will check back later.

[Quickpaw]

I haven't. As I said earlier many times, I accept the character in its entirety.

 

When have I not?

 

Last I checked, 3.0 hasn't been released yet so I dunno what you are even talking about.

 

I'm talking about his actions during the Forged Alliances, where he goes out of his way to be undiscriminatorily destructive to both sides. Or at least his forces do.

 

You forgot this bit:

 

By pulling stuff like that, you only prove my point: You are being selective, over and over again, carefully taking what you find pleasing and discarding the rest.

 

And yet there seems to be little difference in mindset or tactics between Kotor Revan and "whole Revan. No to put too fine a point on it, but what I was saying at the time was that Revan was "lightside" during the events of "Kotor." And he stayed that way even when his memories returned, which SHOULD indicate which path was his true self to begin with.

 

You just did that.

 

Never ONCE have I said what Revan did during the Malachor incident wasn't wrong. I haven't said they weren't done, I've said they were done while under the influence of the Darkside, and as such are not actions Revan would have taken otherwise.

 

No one ever said that's all he is.

 

You on the other hand said earlier that "CANON REVAN IS THE LS REVAN", thus trying to discard his wrong doings in the process.

 

Doesn't work that way.

 

Canon Revan IN KOTOR is the lightside path is what I meant to say.

 

In your opinion of course.

 

Of course.

 

Because that's a more gray area, a more sensible area, namely the one you grab onto so dearly to the point your objectivity is compromised.

 

I have acknowledged those aspects that you have brought as being a part of him. My point is that the current trend he's exhibiting now does not fit WITH THE WHOLE. It DOES fit if only his darker side is taken into consideration, however.

 

However, if you wanna go that way, I only need to tell you this: The Promised Ones.

 

By trying to help them to reach the Promised Land, Revan only offered them a slow and gradual death, over countless decades -- if not centuries. Some good he did there for example.

 

He didn't know that was going to happen. He was TRYING to do some good, and the fact that Malak blew that up in his face was not his fault.

 

Also, he ended up correcting a mistake he enabled to begin with: Malak.

You talk about as if Malak got to where he was out of his own volition, as if the merit was his own alone. It really wasn't.

 

Oh

"You cannot blame me for the path you chose." Or, alternatively: "I'm sorry I started you on this path. But you chose to continue down it." Malak made his own choices.

 

 

Because the stakes demand it. And as pointed out earlier, the Republic is just unfocused, with a Supreme Chancellor whose personal grudge against the Empire blinds her to any other possibilities.

 

Claiming that the Sith Emperor is dead just to strike a blow at the Empire's morale reveals as much.

 

DID the Republic know the Emperor wasn't dead? I'm actually curious, my only level 55 is a Sith.

 

Mine are actually facts. Yours are selective cherry-picking.

 

Different things.

 

Cherry-picking facts does not make them NOT facts. I am not certain I am right, and am looking at different points of view and have THUS FAR found no evidence to DIRECTLY disprove the theory.

 

It is what it is.

 

Yet again, you reveal you have an issue with stuff taken DIRECTLY FROM THE GAMES, whenever you don't find them pleasing.

 

It's kinda eye-rolling at this point. No offense.

 

Because the content has not released yet, we can take those words however we please.

 

You are incorrect.

 

The Voice is the Emperor's essence, the conduit for his words but the Emperor's body is secured elsewhere, safe from prying eyes.

 

Again, even when FACTS are shown to you, straight from the game, you have an issue with them. Unbelievable at this point. Truly.

 

Okay, the "Voice" is the Emperor and doesn't need to be mentioned again. It's just the Emperor and his Host(s). Hosts which can be destroyed. No need to insult me over semantic differences.

 

I question the fact you prefer to rely on Wookieepedia instead of a video showing footage FROM THE GAME ITSELF. It's silly.

 

Because Wookiepedia is more conveniant at this time than the rigmarole of finding the appropriate video, pausing at the right spot to avoid wasting each others' time, copying and pasting the url into the hyperlink,and HOPING you didn't mistype. It is not inherantly superior.

 

You have discarded numerous times every single dark deed Revan planned to carry out.

 

If you're talking about the Malachor and Foundry incidents I believe we have already discussed them.

 

Read what I said. Pay attention, since it's not that hard:

 

That was an incident incited by MALAK, not Revan, was my point. Likely without Revan's knowledge. "As a final test of Karath's loyalty, Darth Malak, without his master Revan's approval, ordered the Admiral to bombard Telos's surface in 3960 BBY." Telos IV

 

 

I prefer to rely on footage from the games themselves, thank you very much.

 

Something you take issue with. Clearly.

 

No, I DON'T take issue with it. My issue is when you see all your points as being superior simply because they come in a different format.

 

Again, you have. "LS Revan is CANON", remember?

 

I was refering to his time during the Kotor game. I didn't make that clear, and I apologize. Can we please move on?

 

I NEVER said it was all, unlike you. I am merely pointing out the contrast, which you chose to dismiss or ignore repeatedly.

 

 

 

And yet again, you keep ignoring Malachor V and the events of the Mandalorian Wars, even AFTER claiming you haven't disputed them earlier, in this same post.

 

Again, unbelievable.

 

How have I denied them?

 

You have to play this game a bit more it would seem. In case you haven't noticed, neither side is interested in fighting the Emperor.

 

Darth Marr, on one hand, seeks to take advantage of the Emperor's absence to reforge the Empire under a new banner. In his opinion, the Emperor is gone, "dying if not dead."

 

Supreme Chancellor Saresh claims that the Emperor is dead and the Dark Council, with the rest of its followers, is coming next. In other words, a Jedi and SiS committee says the Emperor is dead and as such...

 

It must be true.

 

Connect the dots. You must. Not as hard as you think.

 

And Revan could have EASILY corrected the Republic side, and gathered the forces he needed if he wanted to..

 

Again, Revan wasn't a good guy or rather, the kind you claim he was.

 

Stating it repeatedly won't change that.

 

And you denying it won't change it either. Revan at the time of his second confrontation with Vitiate was a good man. FACT.

 

You're trying too hard now.

 

That's just me griping.

 

Excuse me for not liking to play on laptops.

 

I don't like playing on laptops either. But my laptop is still in for repairs so I have no choice.

[Darth_Wicked]

My GF is late; One last chance I guess...

 

When have I not?

 

Can't tell if you're serious.

 

Early, when confronted with Revan's dark deeds, you kept insisting on the fact Bioware's Revan is "CANON LS", going so far as to try and overwrite pre-existing canon, as if Revan was being controlled all along, even before he fully fell to the DS.

 

I'm talking about his actions during the Forged Alliances, where he goes out of his way to be undiscriminatorily destructive to both sides. Or at least his forces do.

 

That's not 3.0 last I checked.

 

Also, both sides -- or one side, depending on how you see it -- tried to undermine his plans repeatedly. Revan was NEVER a peace and love kind of guy, all around.

 

That's why he took action. That's why he went AGAINST the Jedi Council concerning the Mandalorians.

 

And yet there seems to be little difference in mindset or tactics between Kotor Revan and "whole Revan. No to put too fine a point on it, but what I was saying at the time was that Revan was "lightside" during the events of "Kotor." And he stayed that way even when his memories returned, which SHOULD indicate which path was his true self to begin with.

 

 

Regardless, you insist on ignoring it.

 

/facepalm

 

Never ONCE have I said what Revan did during the Malachor incident wasn't wrong. I haven't said they weren't done, I've said they were done while under the influence of the Darkside, and as such are not actions Revan would have taken otherwise.

 

You only prove my point yet again.

 

You insist on this silly notion that LS Revan is all that matters. It doesn't.

 

Revan, whether he was a Jedi or Sith, Light or Dark side, was STILL Revan.

 

It's the same character, not separate.

 

Canon Revan IN KOTOR is the lightside path is what I meant to say.

 

Sure it was. One only needs to see above.

 

I have acknowledged those aspects that you have brought as being a part of him. My point is that the current trend he's exhibiting now does not fit WITH THE WHOLE. It DOES fit if only his darker side is taken into consideration, however.

 

Again: Light or Dark side, IT'S THE SAME CHARACTER.

 

Unless of course, you somehow think Revan is akin to Jekyll & Hyde.

 

He didn't know that was going to happen. He was TRYING to do some good, and the fact that Malak blew that up in his face was not his fault.

 

You prove my point yet again: It's never Revan's fault.

 

It's either the Emperor, the dark side, Malak or something else entirely, NEVER anything the character does, out of his own volition.

 

Oh here. "You cannot blame me for the path you chose." Or, alternatively: "I'm sorry I started you on this path. But you chose to continue down it." Malak made his own choices.

 

In other words, just one second ago, you claim that Revan had no fault whatsoever in what happened to the Promised Ones, considering he chose to help them.

 

When it comes to Malak though, even though he was heavily influenced by Revan, it's all Malak's fault.

 

DID the Republic know the Emperor wasn't dead? I'm actually curious, my only level 55 is a Sith.

 

That explains a lot.

 

Cherry-picking facts does not make them NOT facts. I am not certain I am right, and am looking at different points of view and have THUS FAR found no evidence to DIRECTLY disprove the theory.

 

You don't have a theory. You never had.

 

Calling it that won't change it.

 

Because the content has not released yet, we can take those words however we please.

 

I believe those statements are fairly self-explanatory.

 

Okay, the "Voice" is the Emperor and doesn't need to be mentioned again. It's just the Emperor and his Host(s). Hosts which can be destroyed. No need to insult me over semantic differences.

 

Pointing out you're in error is not "insulting" you. Accept it.

 

Because Wookiepedia is more conveniant at this time than the rigmarole of finding the appropriate video, pausing at the right spot to avoid wasting each others' time, copying and pasting the url into the hyperlink,and HOPING you didn't mistype. It is not inherantly superior.

 

Providing links from the actual games is ALWAYS superior. No room for misinterpretation. That much should be obvious.

 

If you're talking about the Malachor and Foundry incidents I believe we have already discussed them.

 

I have pointed them out repeatedly. You on the other hand choose to ignore them.

 

That was an incident incited by MALAK, not Revan, was my point. Likely without Revan's knowledge. "As a final test of Karath's loyalty, Darth Malak, without his master Revan's approval, ordered the Admiral to bombard Telos's surface in 3960 BBY." Telos IV

 

You keep either ignoring, misinterpreting or not reading at all. Here:

Revan freeing himself from the Emperor's will and carving a path of destruction in the process, including enabling the destruction of Telos? FACT.

 

Last I checked, Revan was in command. The construction of his fleets of ships, the invasion of Republic, etc etc.

 

Again, for you, Revan is the victim EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, while Malak on the other hand, is always responsible for his actions. Same with Saul Karath.

 

Your approach to the characters is absolutely -- yet again -- eye-rolling. Your double-standards are the more evident every step of the way.

 

No, I DON'T take issue with it. My issue is when you see all your points as being superior simply because they come in a different format.

 

My points are not superior. However, by relying on the game directly, I can sure CLAIM that there is no room for misinterpretation.

 

You certainly can't.

 

I was refering to his time during the Kotor game. I didn't make that clear, and I apologize. Can we please move on?

 

No, we can't. You don't get off that easily.

 

That was the all basis for your premise. Now that it came tumbling down, you choose to negate it. Again, won't happen.

 

How have I denied them?

 

You insisted repeatedly that Revan was either under the control of the Emperor or better yet -- and I love this one -- he was under the sway of the dark side, as if the character was any different.

 

Again, are you suggesting Revan is akin to Jekyll & Hyde? Because it sounds like it.

 

And Revan could have EASILY corrected the Republic side, and gathered the forces he needed if he wanted to..

 

I think he tried that already more than once. He was unsuccessful. Again, you keep being selective in your choice of facts.

 

And you denying it won't change it either. Revan at the time of his second confrontation with Vitiate was a good man. FACT.

 

Not really. He was the same man who committed atrocities during the Jedi Civil War and Mandalorian Wars.

 

The fact he did NOT remember it doesn't exonerate him from that.

 

If you think he does, then you're even more deluded than I thought. No offense.

 

That's just me griping.

 

More like adding nothing of worth to the discussion.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Quickpaw]

Why would he bother contacting enemies that continuously seek to undermine him? Enemies that serve their respective factions willingly?

 

Why would he consider the Republic his "Enemies?" I can see where you're coming from on the Imperial side, but I say again: TURNING ON THE THING HE'S TRYING TO SAVE MAKES NO LOGICAL SENSE.

 

Especially considering that the Revanites follow Revan's every whim, without a second thought?

 

Where in the world did those legions come from, anyway? The Imperial Revanites weren't exactly numerous, and they were still devoted followers of the Empire. And even then the "Canon Darkside" Imperial players ratted them out and probably got them heavily reduced, if not outright destroyed.

 

Also, need I remind you that the Foundry was a total wash with the Republic's backing ONLY?

 

Only because it was the Imperial players who where attacking them. Players will always be superior to NPCs.

 

 

The only proof we have of ANY of that is his word, and besides there is no WAY his "followers" outnumber the Republic. If it was numbers he was going for he would have joined the Navy, since the droid idea failed. And what "truth" was he talking about? That the Sith are the bad guys? Duh. That the Emperor needs to be stopped? Pretty much a no-brainer.

 

Of course they would. So would the Sith have given the one on Korriban.

 

No, they wouldn't have. The Sith proper consider him a heratic, and would have attacked him on sight.

 

The more time passes, the harder it is to take you seriously. No offense.

 

AGAIN with the insults.

 

No, they haven't.

 

Revan opted for galactic genocide in the past. Now he's doing it again. You refusing to see it won't change that.

 

Oh, going from wanting only to take out one guy using genocide, then SUDDENDLY deciding the people he was trying to save in the FIRST place need to die as well?! Maybe his methods haven't changed, but his target sure has.

 

I'm so sounding like a broken record.

 

I KNOW THE FEELING

 

In case you missed

, he has all the converts he needs now.

 

And one of his major holdings STILL gets its rear kicked by a mininalist group of 4. Though that could be for the same reason he lost the Foundry.

 

Again, you're trying too hard to IGNORE what the game tells you.

 

HINT: Game > Wookieepedia

 

HINT: What happens in GAME=The information in Wookieepedia. There is little to no discernable difference.

 

I explained already. Repeatedly.

 

Honestly, it's kinda tiresome.

 

Then stop assuming you automatically know better than everyone else about content YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED. Let us have our speculation, PLEASE.

 

You sound bitter. However, that's not really an argument.

 

You're right, it's not. IT'S A FACT. It's what he did, after being cooperative with the Jedi and Republic, and after having found allies in both. He DIDN'T share everything he knew, therefore he broke his word with them.

 

I explained that already as well. Repeatedly.

 

Dunno what to tell you anymore. It just seems I'm talking to a wall, seeing you just ignore everything I type down.

 

No, you really haven't. You've talked about what happened during past events, including the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, the second attack on the Emperor, and the Foundry incident. You have NOTadequately explained what is going on in Revan's head during the events of the upcoming expansion. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. None of us can. That's part of this expansion's hook to buy it, the mystery behind Revan's actions.

 

It's half the fun waiting for the stupid thing to come out: SPECULATING AMONGST OURSELVES.

 

They don't need to know exactly what the Emperor wants. They do need to know that Revan seeks to destroy him.

 

If they played the Maelstrom Prison or the Foundry, they're already aware of that.

 

But they DON'T. We as players can INFER it of course, but NEVER during Forged Alliances does Revan ACTUALLY come out and say: "I'm doing this to stop the Emperor." If he did he'd have the whole Republic at his back.

 

Again, bitterness, plus trying too hard.

 

You keep nitpicking on stuff without actually saying anything. The more you go for that approach, the more pointless this exchange becomes.

 

My point was that the portion of his forces overseen by Arkous and Darok was not so important that his plans couldn't proceed without them, therefore removing the reason for killing the players since they didn't ACTUALLY do any lasting harm to his cause.

 

And you are rambling yet again.

 

Also, EVERY single Bioware game or release shares identical plot traits. Dunno why this would be different, especially considering it's Revan.

 

Then you at least admit the CONNECTION. Sheesh. It is logical, therefore, to draw the conclusion that (and here's the main point of THIS WHOLE THREAD) Revan is being controlled or otherwise manipulated by a third party. THERE. All I'm saying is it's POSSIBLE. Now can we please agree to disagree?

[Darth_Wicked]

Why would he consider the Republic his "Enemies?" I can see where you're coming from on the Imperial side, but I say again: TURNING ON THE THING HE'S TRYING TO SAVE MAKES NO LOGICAL SENSE.

 

Where does he say he wants to save the Republic, after having reappeared on Rakata Prime?

 

Where in the world did those legions come from, anyway? The Imperial Revanites weren't exactly numerous, and they were still devoted followers of the Empire. And even then the "Canon Darkside" Imperial players ratted them out and probably got them heavily reduced, if not outright destroyed.

 

Already provided you the link FROM THE GAME ITSELF. Ignore it if you wish.

 

Also, there's no "CANON DARKSIDE". Canon is whatever you want it to be. Bioware won't impose anything on us.

 

Only because it was the Imperial players who where attacking them. Players will always be superior to NPCs.

 

You don't understand a thing it would seem.

 

The only proof we have of ANY of that is his word, and besides there is no WAY his "followers" outnumber the Republic.

 

Again, see the video. Play the game. Either two.

 

You're trying too hard NOT to do either I think.

 

If it was numbers he was going for he would have joined the Navy, since the droid idea failed. And what "truth" was he talking about? That the Sith are the bad guys? Duh. That the Emperor needs to be stopped? Pretty much a no-brainer.

 

Rambling.

 

No, they wouldn't have. The Sith proper consider him a heratic, and would have attacked him on sight.

 

Guess you never heard of "sarcasm".

 

AGAIN with the insults.

 

It's not an insult.

 

Oh, going from wanting only to take out one guy using genocide, then SUDDENDLY deciding the people he was trying to save in the FIRST place need to die as well?! Maybe his methods haven't changed, but his target sure has.

 

Addressed that as well.

 

I KNOW THE FEELING

 

Doubtful. My stance has been the same this whole time. You on the other hand have backtracked here and there, after having been caught red-handed.

 

And one of his major holdings STILL gets its rear kicked by a mininalist group of 4. Though that could be for the same reason he lost the Foundry.

 

More rambling, plus nitpicking.

 

HINT: What happens in GAME=The information in Wookieepedia. There is little to no discernable difference.

 

One may allow for some misinterpretation, depending on the wording. One does not.

 

I wonder which one you favor.

 

Then stop assuming you automatically know better than everyone else about content YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED. Let us have our speculation, PLEASE.

 

I am not twisting anything last I checked.

 

You're right, it's not. IT'S A FACT. It's what he did, after being cooperative with the Jedi and Republic, and after having found allies in both. He DIDN'T share everything he knew, therefore he broke his word with them.

 

Irrelevant.

 

No, you really haven't. You've talked about what happened during past events, including the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, the second attack on the Emperor, and the Foundry incident. You have NOTadequately explained what is going on in Revan's head during the events of the upcoming expansion. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. None of us can. That's part of this expansion's hook to buy it, the mystery behind Revan's actions.

 

I have already explained what is end-goal his and the forces he relies on.

 

You on the other hand have done nothing of the sort, if only you keep showing you haven't played this game AT ALL.

 

It's half the fun waiting for the stupid thing to come out: SPECULATING AMONGST OURSELVES.

 

Speculation based onto SOMETHING, not twisting and discarding whatever you don't fancy.

 

But they DON'T. We as players can INFER it of course, but NEVER during Forged Alliances does Revan ACTUALLY come out and say: "I'm doing this to stop the Emperor." If he did he'd have the whole Republic at his back.

 

The Republic higher echelon believes the Emperor to be dead.

 

Again, you keep ignoring what the games tells you.

 

The more you go for that approach, the less the odds you have of EVER being taken seriously.

 

My point was that the portion of his forces overseen by Arkous and Darok was not so important that his plans couldn't proceed without them, therefore removing the reason for killing the players since they didn't ACTUALLY do any lasting harm to his cause.

 

It is called "being made an example of".

 

Then you at least admit the CONNECTION. Sheesh. It is logical, therefore, to draw the conclusion that (and here's the main point of THIS WHOLE THREAD) Revan is being controlled or otherwise manipulated by a third party. THERE. All I'm saying is it's POSSIBLE. Now can we please agree to disagree?

 

I couldn't care less at this point quite frankly.

 

No offense but the only idea you have conveyed thus far is that of a zealot or a fanatic, desperately cherishing or holding onto the idea that Revan is a LS Jedi Knight in shining armor, despite having committed numerous atrocities, not to mention the ones he failed to commit.

 

Not remembering it doesn't exonerate him.

 

And guess what? He's bound to commit some more right now, after having ordered attacks on Tython and Korriban, having killed countless Jedi, Republic soldiers, Sith and Imperial soldiers in the process.

 

That was all your beloved Revan right there.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Darth_Wicked]

I'll just leave this here and off I go:

 

In the midst of the ongoing war between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic, a long-hidden sect of extremists has emerged, led by the enigmatic former hero of the Jedi Civil War - Revan. These “Revanites” are mustering an army with an apocalyptic plan that will leave the Republic and the Empire in ashes.

 

Hint, hint: "Revanites", "Led", "By", "Revan". "Mustering", "army", "apocalyptic", "plan". "Republic", "Empire", "ashes."

 

Sounds like a good thing.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Quickpaw]

My GF is late; One last chance I guess...

 

Can't tell if you're serious.

 

Early, when confronted with Revan's dark deeds, you kept insisting on the fact Bioware's Revan is "CANON LS", going so far as to try and overwrite pre-existing canon, as if Revan was being controlled all along, even before he fully fell to the DS.

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If we can both agree that at the time of the Battle at Malachor he had fully fallen to the Dark side: "Many found the dark side to be addictive, unable to resist its pull the more they were subjected to it." "Like the light side, the dark side was often treated as though a semi-sentient entity with purposeful designs." Dark Side. And as for the Mandalorian Wars themselves? They WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT VITIATE PUSHING THEM. http://youtu.be/hWiooXOJsK4 And neither would Revan have fallen so far in the first place. Do I think Revan is without fault in that? No, he made his choices. But still the choices would not have needed to be made without Vitiate.

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That's not 3.0 last I checked.

 

Also, both sides -- or one side, depending on how you see it -- tried to undermine his plans repeatedly. Revan was NEVER a peace and love kind of guy, all around.

 

That's why he took action. That's why he went AGAINST the Jedi Council concerning the Mandalorians.

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Plans he could have shared easily with the Republic, but chose not to. You yourself said: he's an ends-to-means warrior. Currently anyway. The Revan who we face in Forged Alliances Part III is undoubtedly the Revan we will be fighting in Shadow of Revan, I fail to see the difference.

 

He didn't take action against the Mandalorians initially because of his ends=means philosophy: He took action because the Council refused to.

The wars changed him, and Alec. There's no denying that.

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Regardless, you insist on ignoring it.

 

/facepalm

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That was a villain trying to demoralize his foe. He certainly didn't know Revan nearly as well as he thought, or he wouldn't have lost.

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You only prove my point yet again.

 

You insist on this silly notion that LS Revan is all that matters. It doesn't.

 

Revan, whether he was a Jedi or Sith, Light or Dark side, was STILL Revan.

 

It's the same character, not separate.

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"It's the name of your true self, you've only forgotten." Episode VI. No such thing as redememption to you, eh? The force doesn't exist in our world, but we have a pretty good idea of the comperable effects of the Darks side. It's akin almost to a mental illness, an addiction. Do we hold the Jedi Knight accountable for the things he/she did while under Vitiate's power? But that point is moot since Revan chose his path in reaction to the Mandalorians.

 

But that's an arguement for another day (I also hold the council of the time partially responsible for Revan's fall).

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Sure it was. One only needs to see above.

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If you don't think I mean what I say, why are you even responding? I have freely admited I was not clear in my phrasing earler and I have apologized for it.

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Again: Light or Dark side, IT'S THE SAME CHARACTER.

 

Unless of course, you somehow think Revan is akin to Jekyll & Hyde.

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PLEASE don't give Disney ideas! There are several Star Wars EU stories that treat the Dark Side as exactly that. The idea of "redemption" is that if some other force (Namely the dark side) was controlling or influencing your actions, you are not wholly responsible for them. What do you think happens to every reformed prisoner who passes their parole? Revan CORRECTED HIS MISTAKE by stopping Malak.

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You prove my point yet again: It's never Revan's fault.

 

It's either the Emperor, the dark side, Malak or something else entirely, NEVER anything the character does, out of his own volition.

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Wait... You're saying that because Revan helped them... I'm sorry, you've lost me. That was the point in Revan's life where he was FULLY LIGHTSIDE. He certainly didn't ask to be put on the Endar Spire bound for Taris, he didn't FORCE Malak to bombard the place. Besides, Malak was aiming at BASTILA at the time. Be consistant.

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In other words, just one second ago, you claim that Revan had no fault whatsoever in what happened to the Promised Ones, considering he chose to help them.

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Again, his actions in retrospect extended their lives. Yes I know they were doomed anyway, but REVAN DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

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When it comes to Malak though, even though he was heavily influenced by Revan, it's all Malak's fault.

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Um... considering Malak chose to follow Revan in the first place, given the influence of the Darkside.

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That explains a lot.

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Like why I choose to speculate rather than declaritavely state.

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You don't have a theory. You never had.

 

Calling it that won't change it.

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Then let me state it: The THEORY is that Revan is being controlled or manipulated during the events of Forged Alliances and Shadow of Revan. And because no one official in-or-out-of-game has said ANYTHING either way, until Shadow of Revan comes out, it will remain a valid theory.

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I believe those statements are fairly self-explanatory.

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Marketing!

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Pointing out you're in error is not "insulting" you. Accept it.

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My assumption that the "Voice" was really the Emperor himself was not an error.

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Providing links from the actual games is ALWAYS superior. No room for misinterpretation. That much should be obvious.

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Games can (and have repeatedly been) retconned, while Wookieepedia is a comprehensible and updatable service, meaning whatever is written there is true of its subjectat the time you are reading it.

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I have pointed them out repeatedly. You on the other hand choose to ignore them.

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To what end? That they happened? Of course they did. Are they part of who Revan is/was? Of course they are. Do they matter in terms of what is happening now? Of course they do. Were they reprehensable according to our Western Democratic Morality system? Of course they were. I fail to see how I have not addressed them.

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You keep either ignoring, misinterpreting or not reading at all. Here:

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That is YOUR statement, not from any official source. Were it a quote from somewhere official I would lend it the credibility it is due. Revan is not responsible for actions taken without his knowledge or approval. Actions in which HE HIMSELF DID NOT PARTICIPATE.

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Last I checked, Revan was in command. The construction of his fleets of ships, the invasion of Republic, etc etc.

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Oh, I missed the part where Revan was able to be EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE AND CONTROL EVERYTHING VIA POSSESSION.

But that's not your arguement.

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Again, for you, Revan is the victim EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, while Malak on the other hand, is always responsible for his actions. Same with Saul Karath.

 

Your approach to the characters is absolutely -- yet again -- eye-rolling. Your double-standards are the more evident every step of the way.

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"Double standard?" When Revan was turned to the Dark Side he used his powers and forces to strengthen and boster, while Malak did nothing but destroy. That shows an incredible amount of willpower on Revan's part. And yes I can see your "Path of Destruction" quote coming a mile away. A single holocron made at the height of his corruption does not a Force wielder make. The darkside effects all Star Wars characters differently. Do I believe his actions anyl less "evil?" I. DO. NOT. Stop assuming I'm trying to deny what he was like at that point in his life.

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My points are not superior. However, by relying on the game directly, I can sure CLAIM that there is no room for misinterpretation.

 

You certainly can't.

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You can't when a game like this has a morality system which renders some choices NONCANON. Therefore, only certain videos will be accurate as per their lore. And again: RETCONS. Which Wookieepedia handles far better than a lets-play of older games.

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No, we can't. You don't get off that easily.

 

That was the all basis for your premise. Now that it came tumbling down, you choose to negate it. Again, won't happen.

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It was a statement I made that was not understood in the way I intended, and promptly taken out of context. I've been trying to come up with logical and reasonable rebuttles to your points so this would be an equitable debate, but the only thing you've done is disprove everything I say without stopping to consider if there is any meaning behind it. I'm open to multiple ideas, but everything you've said boils down to "You're wrong; DEAl with it."

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You insisted repeatedly that Revan was either under the control of the Emperor or better yet -- and I love this one -- he was under the sway of the dark side, as if the character was any different.

 

Again, are you suggesting Revan is akin to Jekyll & Hyde? Because it sounds like it.

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Again: is this NOT the nature of the darkside? To change you and your character into something it WASN'T before? How can you say Revan was always the same? The same body, I'll grant, but SURE AS HELL not the same spirit or morals. And again: don't give Disney ideas!

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I think he tried that already more than once. He was unsuccessful. Again, you keep being selective in your choice of facts.

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Did he? We have no proof either way. Source please.

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Not really. He was the same man who committed atrocities during the Jedi Civil War and Mandalorian Wars.

 

The fact he did NOT remember it doesn't exonerate him from that.

 

If you think he does, then you're even more deluded than I thought. No offense.

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Same individual? Yes. Same person? NO. Darth Revan slaughtered people without a second thought, and cared nothing for the people who stood in his way. A few seconds after he regains all his memories this happens: "Saddened that the guards had been slain, Revan stopped and bowed his head over their bodies, but Surik interrupted him and Scourge delivered his lightsaber to Revan before the four of them fled the stronghold." Yes, from Wookieepedia because it's from the Revan novel. That is NOT Darth Revan.

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More like adding nothing of worth to the discussion.

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Excuse me for trying to lighten up this conversation between two indivuduals who are at each others' throats.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Quickpaw

[Quickpaw]

I'll just leave this here and off I go:

 

Hint, hint: "Revanites", "Led", "By", "Revan". "Mustering", "army", "apocalyptic", "plan". "Republic", "Empire", "ashes."

 

Sounds like a good thing.

 

'Through gritted teeth' Have. I. Ever. Said. I. Agree. With. What. Revan. Is. DOING? The point that apparantly has been lost on you is that those of us having misgivings about this do not believe this to be in keeping with ANYTHING, light or dark, good or evil, that we have seen from Revan. ANY Revan, no matter which era he's in! Is he the same person as he was when we last saw him in the Foundry? OBVIOUSLY NOT. Therefore, something major has happened in between then and now that we are as yet unaware of. Is that so impossible?

Edited October 9, 2014 by Quickpaw

[Transairion]

Considering

, it's actually a very good explanation. There's a reason Revan says "unfocused".

 

You just need to connect the dots. NOT everything needs to be spoon-fed.

 

 

In light of

and

, not really.

 

Pointless sarcasm on your part aside, the answers were provided already.

 

 

Er, what part of "the Republic murdered the Emperor and is coming for the rest of the Empire" makes them "unfocused", exactly?

 

Given Revan himself tries to murder the Empire, and the Emperor, that just makes the Republic and Revan have the same goals... which is why they teamed up...

 

....... and why it makes no sense he's turning on them now.

 

 

 

Please don't tell me you're the kind of person who thought Mass Effect 3 was some kind of masterpeice, cause we all know what most people thought of that.

 

 

 

"I didn't want a cult", at a point in the game where the Revanites are nothing more than a sidequest on Drommund Kass. Sounds perfectly like a distraction to me, he even goes and says he didn't want anything to do with them in Rakata Prime.

 

 

Even if we consider Revan is totally insane, he'd STILL benefit from allying with the Republic more than turning on them simply because he could use them as expendable fodder while he does... whatever his plan is.

 

 

 

Him turning on the Republic is Starchild level crazy.

[Darkelefantos]

Seeing how Revan almost destroyed the Republic once so he could strengthen it against the Emperor's invasion, I'm somewhat inclined to disagree with the title of this thread.

[Torvai]

The following is ny opinion of what will happen in 3.0, but first:

Er, what part of "the Republic murdered the Emperor and is coming for the rest of the Empire" makes them "unfocused", exactly?

Emperor still alive. They are focused on the "wrong" enemy.

 

Given Revan himself tries to murder the Empire, and the Emperor, that just makes the Republic and Revan have the same goals... which is why they teamed up...

 

....... and why it makes no sense he's turning on them now.

Empires and emperors goals aren't the same. The empire wants to destroy the pubs and the jedi and rule the galaxy. The emperor wants to destroy ALL LIFE in order to become immortal. And Revan isn't turning against them, they are "just in his way".

 

 

Please don't tell me you're the kind of person who thought Mass Effect 3 was some kind of masterpeice, cause we all know what most people thought of that.

In my opinion, it was, but that's another discussion

 

So. One of Revans biggest characters traits is, that he always did what was necessary in his eyes to achieve his goals. During the mando wars, while he stopped Malak and beyond.

In the teaser and the rakata prime fp he said he will finish what he started. Only thing that comes to my mind is the destruction of the emperor. Cause IF he is still alive, and i think i read somewhere that he actually really dies a thousand years or so aby, Revan would know. You don't spend 300 years in other peoples mind without forming a force bond. He probably thinks something like "he's weakened, now i finish him off".

Republic and Empire think the emperor is dead. Convincing them would take to long, so he turned to the revanites. They worship him and would do anything he wants them to.

[Nydus]

There really isn't any reason Revan would turn on the Republic while they're helping him.

 

Make sense from the way I played Revan in KOTOR.

 

It's about time we get a bad *** Revan.

 

- Arcada

[KierenHorn]

Seeing how Revan almost destroyed the Republic once so he could strengthen it against the Emperor's invasion, I'm somewhat inclined to disagree with the title of this thread.

 

That's not actually what happened though. His invasion was brought about as a test of their strength by the emperor. When he visited Dromund Kass the emperor infiltrated his mind and twisted him and Malak ordering them to attack the Republic as an initial invasion. if they succeed, great, if they failed the emperor would know he needed more time to build his forces. They only broke away from the emperors commands slightly, by thinking they wanted to rule the galaxy themselves. This is all in the Revan novel.

[Branosaros]

Well, what's to say Revan isn't unstable? He's gone through a lot of emotional trauma, and has suffered under the Sith Emperor for so long he may have snapped. All his friends are dead, he failed to stop the war before it began, and he was sharing a bond with the Emperor. The first time he teamed up with the Republic, he failed in the attempt as the Sith soon found out about it and sent a strike team. Perhaps his new plan would cost the lives of Republic citizens, and therefore the senate would never agree to it, and so he chose to form a faction of people who are willing to do what it takes.

Revan didn't fall when he first met the Emperor. He fell during the Mandalorians Wars, as he slowly became more and more like his enemy, to such an extent that he ended up being respected by them. Revan fell once, he can fall again. If anything has been proven, it's that there is no limit to how many times you fall and are redeemed.