Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[Canino]

Well the Hegemony doesn't really need the majority of the population on their side, or perhaps even want it. They want a small group of informants, spies and saboteurs that can go unnoticed but nonetheless cause damage.

 

Anyway, images can be tarnished, and Lumiya and Imperial Intel are definitely in a position to do that.

 

And if the Hegemony succeed in cutting off the Alliance from food and water civilians may have no choice but to side with Lumiya in order to get the sustenance they need. Not everyone will stay true to their ideals under hardship.

 

Ziro will do as he's told, and willingly, seeing as one can't exactly throw a party in the middle of the warzone. And Hutts are resistant to blaster bolts? As if. The one's I riddled with bullets in SWTOR certainly were not. Not that it really matters, I just don't really buy the claim that Hutts are blaster proof. What examples do we have of this?

 

As I said before, I feel an Anzati would fail against Lumiya's superior intellect. They'll be out of their depth.

 

There's a quote in one of the Han Solo Trilogy books that explains Hutt's resistants to blaster bolts, although I can't remember which one it is. My guess would be Hutt Gambit, but I don't have time at the moment to check.

 

However, I have this,

 

"A Hutt's skin was perhaps its greatest defense as the epidermis was able to resist all but the most corrosive of chemical substances. Furthermore oil and mucus sweat made a Hutt difficult to grasp as its body was slippery to hold. Should anyone manage to grab hold of the body or manage to puncture the skin, heavy layers of blubber and muscle protected the vital organs from harm. In addition, the slimy coating of sweat and mucus protected them from either chemical burns or heat. Hutts were resistant to many poisons and diseases and seldom fell ill. It was also claimed that the species was indigestible with creatures such as the sarlacc facing indigestion from swallowing a Hutt. As a result, such creatures forcibly expelled their kind instead of eating them which was a trait that saved some Hutts from death. Their body odor was noted for being strong enough to upset a sensitive human stomach."

 

I'll try to find the quote later, but if I were you, I wouldn't pass it off so carelessly. If their is one thing I know about Star Wars, it would be Hutts. Believe me here. I can guarantee my knowledge of Hutt's is greater than your own. In fact, I ask you, what sources do you have to back up your claims? Ziro, an oddity I already explained, and gameplay, which is not cannon. And, which can be explained none the less- the smuggler, trooper, agent, and Bounty Hunter are all exceptional shots, and all us high quality weaponry. It wouldn't be surprising at all if one of them killed a Hutt, as they are more than capable of doing what is necessary to kill one.

 

And did Jabba not party while Luke fought him? Did Aruk not party? Durga? Ord Mantell isn't exactly an orderly place. Again, I say, this is autonomous. Ziro is a party thrower, and has the means to throw a party. It would be explicitly against his character to not throw one. The only time we have seen him not partying is when he was in jail, and on the run. He is in neither situation here.

 

And how, exactly, does Lumiya counter the Anazati? Oppo Rancisis barely did. Tholme and Quinlan only did as Tholme was trained by them.

 

As for being cut off from supplies, I again say the Malevolence would not be in PH control for long.

[Aurbere]

Oppo Rancisis barely beat the Anzati that attacked him? When? I hope you're referring to a different one than I'm thinking, because he owned them on Saleucami.

[Beniboybling]

There's a quote in one of the Han Solo Trilogy books that explains Hutt's resistants to blaster bolts, although I can't remember which one it is. My guess would be Hutt Gambit, but I don't have time at the moment to check.

 

However, I have this,

 

"A Hutt's skin was perhaps its greatest defense as the epidermis was able to resist all but the most corrosive of chemical substances. Furthermore oil and mucus sweat made a Hutt difficult to grasp as its body was slippery to hold. Should anyone manage to grab hold of the body or manage to puncture the skin, heavy layers of blubber and muscle protected the vital organs from harm. In addition, the slimy coating of sweat and mucus protected them from either chemical burns or heat. Hutts were resistant to many poisons and diseases and seldom fell ill. It was also claimed that the species was indigestible with creatures such as the sarlacc facing indigestion from swallowing a Hutt. As a result, such creatures forcibly expelled their kind instead of eating them which was a trait that saved some Hutts from death. Their body odor was noted for being strong enough to upset a sensitive human stomach."

 

I'll try to find the quote later, but if I were you, I wouldn't pass it off so carelessly. If their is one thing I know about Star Wars, it would be Hutts. Believe me here. I can guarantee my knowledge of Hutt's is greater than your own. In fact, I ask you, what sources do you have to back up your claims? Ziro, an oddity I already explained, and gameplay, which is not cannon. And, which can be explained none the less- the smuggler, trooper, agent, and Bounty Hunter are all exceptional shots, and all us high quality weaponry. It wouldn't be surprising at all if one of them killed a Hutt, as they are more than capable of doing what is necessary to kill one.

 

And did Jabba not party while Luke fought him? Did Aruk not party? Durga? Ord Mantell isn't exactly an orderly place. Again, I say, this is autonomous. Ziro is a party thrower, and has the means to throw a party. It would be explicitly against his character to not throw one. The only time we have seen him not partying is when he was in jail, and on the run. He is in neither situation here.

 

And how, exactly, does Lumiya counter the Anazati? Oppo Rancisis barely did. Tholme and Quinlan only did as Tholme was trained by them.

 

As for being cut off from supplies, I again say the Malevolence would not be in PH control for long.

Well, while I'd be willing to take your word for it, Ziro's death begs to differ, and I don't feel your explanation covers it. How can being in poor health possibly effect the thickness of one's skin? What evidence is there to suggest Ziro was in poor health? And surely anything a Hutt could do to be unhealthy, i.e. overeat, would only provide him with more blubber. It seems to me that TCW is overriding past canon, and SWTOR is following suit.

 

Noting I am referring to cutscene deaths, which are canon. I'm sure you can remember some e.g. Quesh.

 

By setting up a myriad of traps (designed for the Tholme and Jaina no less) in her already pretty secure volcano fortress. Anzanti aren't even capable of cloaking themselves from the naked eye, I can't see them succeeding. It appears to me they were designed to assassinate people in semi-exposed areas, not infiltrate strongholds.

 

Anyway Ziro will not be partying. Jabba was not in the middle of a full scale war, and Luke was an unexpected threat that was never actually perceived to be a threat until it was far too late. Can't remember Aruk, Durga or Ziro being in situations like this. Ultimately though it comes down to Lumiya saying no, what is Ziro going to do? Object? As if.

 

EDIT: Indeed the only times Ziro did not party, as you stated, where moments of crisis.

 

I mean seriously Canino, nobody is going to come to Ziro's "party" when they could be shot down en route!

 

Anyway, despite the fact that the Alliance doesn't have the resources to capture the Malevolence, it is not needed for this role. Tri fighters alone will be enough to destroy any slow moving transports that attempt to reach the surface.

 

P.S. How exactly is the Alliance getting hold of Anzati? They don't appear to be Tholme's friends...

Edited October 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Oppo Rancisis barely beat the Anzati that attacked him? When? I hope you're referring to a different one than I'm thinking, because he owned them on Saleucami.

If these guys assassinate by attacking head on, then they would be slaughtered by IG-86 droids.

[Aurbere]

P.S. How exactly is the Alliance getting hold of Anzati? They don't appear to be Tholme's friends...

 

I was going to mention that. Besides, I think Anzat's a good distance away, so I don't see Anzati playing a role here.

[Aurbere]

If these guys assassinate by attacking head on, then they would be slaughtered by IG-86 droids.

 

Oppo Rancisis seems to view them with low regard, so I don't expect that them to be fantastic.

[karadron]

So just a couple of things before I go off the grid for a few days:

 

1.Why would an Anzati master assassin train Tholme in their ways if they did not respect him?

 

2. Saying Anzati make bad assassins is like saying Hutts make bad crimelords or Twi'leks bad dancer. The one true Anzati art form is stealth. (So says the New Essential Guide to Alien Species. They spend centuries perfecting their techniques.

 

3. The Anzatis sent after Oppo Rancisis were a distraction, and, after all, he did not survive the encounter. Back stabbing for the win.

 

4. If Anzat is too far away, then the PH will never get any supplies from Geonosis. Anzat is in the Mid Rim and so is Ord Mantell.

 

5. How is Ziro going to convince the underworld to aid him. He doesn't have the power or influence of people like Xizor or Jabba. Nor does he have anyway of paying them. Let me direct your attention to the rulebook:

 

#24 When in the Kaggath, no members of Leadership have immediate access to supplies such as money, raw materials, armies, navies etc. they are completely isolated from them.

 

So...what's he got to offer them?

[Beniboybling]

5. How is Ziro going to convince the underworld to aid him. He doesn't have the power or influence of people like Xizor or Jabba. Nor does he have anyway of paying them. Let me direct your attention to the rulebook:

 

So...what's he got to offer them?

The Hegemony's monetary assets are provided by their organisation and supplier, Baktoid and Imperial Intelligence, both of whom are fabulously wealthy. Indeed it goes without saying that for Imperial Intel money is no object.

 

And concerning Ziro, I'm glad you asked.

 

Indicators of Ziro’s power, influence and intellect:

He was a Black Sun Vigo: In the words of Xizor himself “to be a Vigo in the Black Sun is to enjoy more power than all but a handful of beings in the entire galaxy.” The Black Sun likely consists of hundreds of crime lords, the underworld consists of millions. Ziro is one of nine to rise to the top of the pile, and would have had to be cunning and capable to do so, and with it has a great deal of power. lndeed, being a high-ranking member of two of the most powerful crime syndicates in the galaxy is certainly nothing to be scoffed at.

 

He attempted to assassinate other Vigos: Ziro was not just a minor player among the other lieutenants. He had his personal assassin droid attempt to take out another Vigo, suggesting he both had the power to do so with impunity (remember the Black Sun is a brotherhood, and betrayal is punished severely) and the resources.

 

He ruled over seven systems: That is effectively a miniature empire, one does not simply acquire seven systems through being a petty crime lord, Ziro was the cream of the crop.

 

He represented Hutt interests on Coruscant: Ziro is the Hutt presence on Coruscant - as it is he the Senate turns to make contact with the Hutts - the most important planet in the galaxy that has one of the largest underworlds out there. To entrust such an important territory to Ziro indicates a great deal of importance.

 

He was next in line to the Desilijic throne: One of the most powerful Hutt families in the cartel, Ziro conspired against his nephew Jabba with the intentions of having the Republic remove him from power, resulting in Ziro - apparently the next in line and as such arguably the second most powerful member - taking his place. Simply being a member of this clan affords him a large amount of influence and contacts, but Ziro is much more.

 

He had information on many Hutt secrets: He did not win that in a lottery, and the Hutts would have kept their secrets closely guarded. Ziro must have a wealth of spies at his disposal and it again indicates his own influence.

 

He hired Aurra Sing while in prison: Despite being locked away in a high-security prison Ziro still managed to hire a bounty hunter to kill Padme. Even while in prison Ziro still retains an impressive level of power.

Don't underestimate Ziro folks, he holds a great deal of power and possesses the skills needed to achieve that power, in particular the size of Ziro's empire gives us explicit evidence of Ziro's ability to influence underworlds, and even the law-abiding citizenry, on a planetary scale. Ord Mantell being a veritable hot-bed of criminal activity.

 

The Hegemony can use Ziro to rally crime syndicates to their aid, giving them financial backing, information, manpower, resources, a means of access into Alliance stronghold, and the civilian population. Even the government, assuming it is just as corrupt as it was in the Old Republic era, could fall prey to these powers of corruption.

 

P.S. Nobody is saying the Anzati are bad assassins, but they are not infiltrators, they don't have the skills or the resources to pull off such an operation, which will involve pitting themselves against a mastermind of espionage.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

The Hegemony's monetary assets are provided by their organisation and supplier, Baktoid and Imperial Intelligence, both of whom are fabulously wealthy. Indeed it goes without saying that for Imperial Intel money is no object.

 

Baktoid yes, but Imperial Intelligence weren't.

[Beniboybling]

Baktoid yes, but Imperial Intelligence weren't.

As an intelligence organisation they are going to need a lot of credits to do what they do.

 

I expect the Empire would have given them quite a large budget.

[Aurbere]

4. If Anzat is too far away, then the PH will never get any supplies from Geonosis. Anzat is in the Mid Rim and so is Ord Mantell.

 

You're right, Anzat is rather close. I had forgotten.

 

Anyway, I don't see the Anzati 'rallying the troops' on Tholme's words, not without some good reasons.

[Selenial]

As an intelligence organisation they are going to need a lot of credits to do what they do.

 

I expect the Empire would have given them quite a large budget.

 

But it's still the empires money, none of it is income from Intelligence activities so none of it would apply here.

 

They'd need to be funded by Baktoid to stay in function.

[Beniboybling]

But it's still the empires money, none of it is income from Intelligence activities so none of it would apply here.

 

They'd need to be funded by Baktoid to stay in function.

Imperial Intelligence is the Empire, they don't just hand it out on loan when they ask for it, they would own those funds.

[Selenial]

Imperial Intelligence is the Empire, they don't just hand it out on loan when they ask for it, they would own those funds.

 

Actually, that is how intelligence works.

 

Hell, even MI6 works like this, the service gets a set amount of money from the government. That's it.

 

They have no income, so all their money is the Empires. The empire can give and the empire can take it away. This is why the Sith had such an easy time disbanding imperial intelligence, they were both subsets of the military and had no independence.

 

Unless you're trying to say you get the Trillions of credits of the empire, which would amuse me even more than your current reasoning ._.

[Silenceo]

Imperial Intelligence is the Empire, they don't just hand it out on loan when they ask for it, they would own those funds.

 

Not exactly the same. For example, in the US government the FBI and such does not run simply because it is a government agency, but it has bills to pay and hoops to jump through as well. It is part of the yearly budget and such.

 

For Imperial Intelligence, yes they were highly prized and given what they needed, but no, they never really had funds of their own. If cut off from the main government (GE) then they would need another source to continue being as effective as they are, which Baktoid could assist with. However, would this not have a negative effect on Baktoids production since they are using resources to keep I.I. afloat?

 

Side Note: I would participate more, but as of this last week I just have had the overwhelming desire to act very... disrespectfully... towards the PH, so I have tried to keep that in check by removing my self, even if it means watching opportunities slip by... I just hope others pick up those points and continue onwards.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Silenceo

[Selenial]

Pfft FBI, MI6 sounds way cooler ._.

[Beniboybling]

Actually, that is how intelligence works.

 

Hell, even MI6 works like this, the service gets a set amount of money from the government. That's it.

 

They have no income, so all their money is the Empires. The empire can give and the empire can take it away. This is why the Sith had such an easy time disbanding imperial intelligence, they were both subsets of the military and had no independence.

 

Unless you're trying to say you get the Trillions of credits of the empire, which would amuse me even more than your current reasoning ._.

Well that is what I'm saying, they own that money. Otherwise every time they they required credits they'd have to go through some bureau to attain it, which would be a logistical nightmare. Far more likely that they have a treasurer of some kind who has direct access to the funds they have been allowed i.e. they own those credits.

 

Yes the Empire could take it away at any time, but that itself is based on the premise that it belongs to them in the first place. I don't think there is room to argue that those funds are separate from Intelligence, and there is some kind of middle man between them. And yes, trillions of credits is probably close to the figure the Empire would provide.

[Selenial]

Well that is what I'm saying, they own that money. Otherwise every time they they required credits they'd have to go through some bureau to attain it, which would be a logistical nightmare. Far more likely that they have a treasurer of some kind who has direct access to the funds they have been allowed i.e. they own those credits.

 

Yes the Empire could take it away at any time, but that itself is based on the premise that it belongs to them in the first place. I don't think there is room to argue that those funds are separate from Intelligence, and there is some kind of middle man between them. And yes, trillions of credits is probably close to the figure the Empire would provide.

Nope, MI6 and the FBI have to go to the treasury every time they need more money, so using them as examples...

[Aurbere]

I'm going to have to agree with Sel. I think that any money that I.I gets is from the GE, so I don't think it has any money of its own.

 

Baktoid's probably loaded, though.

[Beniboybling]

I'm going to have to agree with Sel. I think that any money that I.I gets is from the GE, so I don't think it has any money of its own.

 

Baktoid's probably loaded, though.

Fair enough. And I'd agree.

[Aurbere]

Fair enough. And I'd agree.

 

Good.

 

Now that that's taken care of, let's move on to some leadership discussions. I think we're getting to the endgame on this one.

[Aurbere]

Good.

 

Now that that's taken care of, let's move on to some leadership discussions. I think we're getting to the endgame on this one.

 

Weeelll...

[Silenceo]

Weeelll...

 

GA Argument:

 

GA is awesome, we haz stylz points!

 

Lack of PH argument means GA wins by default! VICTORY!

[Aurbere]

GA Argument:

 

GA is awesome, we haz stylz points!

 

Lack of PH argument means GA wins by default! VICTORY!

 

I don't think Beni would approve if that argument decided the match.

[Silenceo]

I don't think Beni would approve if that argument decided the match.

 

END IT! END IT NAAAAAW!