Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) LA's analogy is closer to the truth of the matter -- we lost a lot of variability for the sake of a couple minorities who think their niches are the end-all and be-all of MMOs. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) LA's analogy is closer to the truth of the matter -- we lost a lot of variability for the sake of a couple minorities who think their niches are the end-all and be-all of MMOs. You've got that backwards. You were the minority. Deny it all you like, but it's the truth. Edited January 3, 2015 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janglor Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 This is a major, major change This is going to impact every class and basically force everyon to re-learn a class and respec Is unbelievable. I am very concerned, will the game be fun again One grows accostumed to a certain progression and playstyle and you decide to completely change it? This level of madness I only have see in SWG, and when they did change so much the game play, the game broke and closed within months I am very disappointed and worried http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-introduction-disciplines And closed within months? The majority of the games run time happened after the CU, and about half after the NGE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) You've got that backwards. You were the minority. Deny it all you like, but it's the truth. Sure sure, whatever. Even when it's shoved in their faces, even when there are published statistics (thank you, L.A.) the hardcore raiders and PvPers can't stand the idea that they're the minority of players, and will continue to demand that games cater to their whims, and that only their little niches of the game matter at all. We're constantly told that there's only one objective measure of a build, and it just happens to be the one that caters to the needs of the hardcore raiders and the PvPers. We even have someone in these threads asserting as "fact" that everything else is meaningless to game design, only the endgame and PvP matter. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Sure sure, whatever. Even when it's shoved in their faces, even when their are published statistics (thank you, L.A.) the hardcore raiders and PvPers can't stand the idea that they're the minority of players, and will continue to demand that games cater to their whims, and that only their little niches of the game matter at all. We even have someone in this thread saying that everything else is meaningless to game design, only the endgame and PvP matter. I'm talking about hybrid players, the only people that this change affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I'm talking about hybrid players, the only people that this change affected. Keep telling yourself that, as long as the changes cater to you, they'll be "right" and "justified" and "good for the game"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Keep telling yourself that, as long as the changes cater to you, they'll be "right" and "justified" and "good for the game"... And as long as the changes don't cater to you, they'll be "wrong" and "unjustified" and "bad for the game"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) And as long as the changes don't cater to you, they'll be "wrong" and "unjustified" and "bad for the game"? What makes them bad is that they actively take away from one segment of the player base in order to cater to the whims of other segments, while giving nothing back. If the changes made PvP worse or raiding worse, in order to cater to some other segment, they'd still be bad. The old system had problems -- that doesn't make the new system the only solution that could have been implemented. (False dichotomy, look it up.) The needs of the raiders and PvP minorities could have been addressed without actively taking away from other segments of the player base. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 What makes them bad is that they actively take away from one segment of the player base in order to cater to the whims of other segments, while giving nothing back. If the changes made PvP worse or raiding worse, in order to cater to some other segment, they'd still be bad. The old system had problems -- that doesn't make the new system the only solution that could have been implemented. (False dichotomy, look it up.) The needs of the raiders and PvP minorities could have been addressed without actively taking away from other segments of the player base. Taking away from a tiny minority doesn't necessarily make it bad for the game, it makes it bad for that minority. There's a difference. Also, I've yet to see anyone propose a better solution. So go ahead and come up with something better if you think their solution is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Taking away from a tiny minority doesn't necessarily make it bad for the game, it makes it bad for that minority. There's a difference. And catering to a tiny minority doesn't make it good for the game... stop pretending that your minority of the playerbase is the only minority that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 And catering to a tiny minority doesn't make it good for the game... stop pretending that your minority of the playerbase is the only minority that matters. I don't, the original system caused issues all throughout the game and negatively affected pretty much everyone. The only people that the new system doesn't benefit are hybrid players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 What makes them bad is that they actively take away from one segment of the player base in order to cater to the whims of other segments, while giving nothing back. If the changes made PvP worse or raiding worse, in order to cater to some other segment, they'd still be bad. The old system had problems -- that doesn't make the new system the only solution that could have been implemented. (False dichotomy, look it up.) The needs of the raiders and PvP minorities could have been addressed without actively taking away from other segments of the player base. It gives back. You can have bubble stun as full healer now, you can have egress as full DPS now, you can have healing Shoulder Cannon as DPS, you can provide healing buff with Phase Walk as DPS, etc. Unless you were hybrid, nothing was really taken from you. If you were a hybrid, then the decision was made to expunge hybrids, as they proved nearly impossible to balance properly across all types of gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) I don't, the original system caused issues all throughout the game and negatively affected pretty much everyone. The only people that the new system doesn't benefit are hybrid players. And any players who built around anything other than the desire to maximize "output". And any players who avoided wasting points on things they didn't want. And any players who preferred taking passives over "stack counting". And... Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) The old system had problems -- that doesn't make the new system the only solution that could have been implemented. (False dichotomy, look it up.) I agree. The Discipline system is not the only solution that could have been implemented. The needs of the raiders and PvP minorities could have been addressed without actively taking away from other segments of the player base. I don't disagree with you on this, either. And yet, you have either been unwilling or unable to think up an alternative. I've asked you several times what your idea was, instead of Disciplines, to no avail. Edited January 3, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 And any players who built around anything other than the desire to maximize "output". And any players who avoided wasting points on things they didn't want. And any players who preferred taking passives over "stack counting". And... That was covered when I mentioned hybrid players. You represent a tiny portion of the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 That was covered when I mentioned hybrid players. You represent a tiny portion of the player base. So do you. Stop believing your tiny portion is more important than any other tiny portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 So do you. Stop believing your tiny portion is more important than any other tiny portion. And around we go again. I don't, the original system caused issues all throughout the game and negatively affected pretty much everyone. The only people that the new system doesn't benefit are hybrid players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 And any players who avoided wasting points on things they didn't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) In the old system, I rarely had to put more than 1 point into something I didn't want a level 55 build to get into the next tier. But then, I preferred the "+3% stat" or "+3% damage reduction" passive skills over most of the "ooo ooo ooo watch this build stacks, then fire off this power, then watch it build a new buff!" crap. In the new system, using the Arsenal Merc as an example, there are MORE things that I end up getting by default that are unwanted or just... whatever, than in the old system. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) In the old system, I rarely had to put more than 1 point into something I didn't want a level 55 build to get into the next tier. But then, I preferred the "+3% stat" or "+3% damage reduction" passive skills over most of the "ooo ooo ooo watch this build stacks, then fire off this power, then watch it build a new buff!" crap. In the new system, using the Arsenal Merc as an example, there are MORE things that I end up getting by default that are unwanted or just... whatever, than in the old system. Oh no, specs with complexity! The horror! Though, I can't even say that with a straight face when talking about Arsenal Mercs. Edited January 3, 2015 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Oh no, specs with complexity! The horror! More button-hammering! The height of skill! (See, it works both ways.) The new system took away the option to build in avoidance of whack-a-mole rotations. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 More button-hammering! The height of skill! (See, it works both ways.) The new system took away the option to build in avoidance of whack-a-mole rotations. The guy who thinks Arsenal Mercs are too hard is commenting on skill now. Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) The guy who thinks Arsenal Mercs are too hard is commenting on skill now. Classic. Stop hearing what you want to hear. Who said anything about "hard"? (Other than you, bringing up the classic boogie-man of "skill" so prized by the hardcore endgame and PvP minorities... what's next, a "learn to play" argument to try to belittle anyone who won't agree with you?) Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) In the old system, I rarely had to put more than 1 point into something I didn't want a level 55 build to get into the next tier. But then, I preferred the "+3% stat" or "+3% damage reduction" passive skills over most of the "ooo ooo ooo watch this build stacks, then fire off this power, then watch it build a new buff!" crap. In the new system, using the Arsenal Merc as an example, there are MORE things that I end up getting by default that are unwanted or just... whatever, than in the old system. Looking at Arsenal Merc, I really do not see changes. There are two passives that deal with "building stacks" that allow for something. One of these abilities was in the old system, one upgrades new active ability. Including this new ability, there are two active abilities that give the target some sort of debuff that you are completely free to ignore, as it only boosts damage of other abilities, and does not require building any stacks outside of your regular rotation. However, I assume you are also talking about change completely unrelated to Disciplines, which is Supercharged Gas, which requires you to do nothing but using your abilities as usual, and then if you want use ability that provides short lived buff that allows to use certain abilities without cooldown etc. Just so I can visualize better what you were doing, feel free to post your old spec (you can use this http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/mercenary) Edited January 3, 2015 by Aries_cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Good thing the new system gives you everything you could possibly need to maximize your tank, heals, and dps absolutely free for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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