3.0 Vengeance

[Bare-Giin]

Hi guys

 

I just thought its time to freewheel some ideas for vengeance 3.0.

 

With the changes our class has received the last year i would say our surviability has become quite awesome compared to how it was 2 years ago, which is nice, and also now with ravage on a steady basis our burst has improved alot.

 

So maybe its time for some new niche in the vengeance tree. If we look at star wars story n stuff Shien form relies much on counter attacks, strength and heavy attacks. Well vengeance has an increassed strength talent but it has no bonus for retaliation whatsoever. Which is why i suggest this new tier talent in vengeance:

 

Shien mastery: - Increasse critical strike damage bonus of Retaliation and Ravage by 30%. Additionally Retaliation no longer costs rage.

 

There will prob be two new talents in the tree and i have only thought about this one.

 

Many would probably think it would be op to give 30% surge bonus to Ravage but Ravage is our signature move and all other classes has surge bonuses to their trees signature moves, and btw it might not be so op after we have seen other classes changes.

 

Let me know whatcha think pz out

[veSev]

Although the title is a little more specific, we've been talk about this here for a while. Both changes for pre ane post 3.0.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=758007

[Bare-Giin]

LoL didnt see that, just saw some big walls of texts. Instead of talking feelings and nonsense we should just talk about the ideas, Sry m8 but that thread just has way to much text in it for it to be viable as a 3.0 thread

[Joran-Koon]

lol for real bro?

That forum has the cumulation of ideas of the jug/guard community for 3.0 and how to effect our viability for good. The fact it doesn't have a pretty title and that you're to lazy to give it a read through doesn't mean its invalid. On top of that, it covers all three specs, not just one.

 

Not to mention starting a 3.0 thread a week or two before the announcement of 3.0 is a little late. There has been ideas forming for a while now that I know BW has been keeping track of. It says Dear Bioware and is always on top of the posts in this section.

 

I am glad we have another forum poster who's willing to join in on the convo for us in 3.0, just do what we all did and join us instead of trying to make a pretty thread that has your name on it.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Joran-Koon

[veSev]

LoL didnt see that, just saw some big walls of texts. Instead of talking feelings and nonsense we should just talk about the ideas, Sry m8 but that thread just has way to much text in it for it to be viable as a 3.0 thread

 

The wall of texts, more times than not, are calculated ideas about how to make us viable. Reading 1 or 2 pages doesnt give good picture of everything discussed in that thread. I will say that i havent done a cumulative post in there in a couple weeks so things can be a bit difficult to find (hopefully next week when i am all settled ill do that). Regardless, there are a lot of members in the community working toward ideas for all 3 specs in that thread as kali said.

[GrandLordMenace]

Repost from other thread.

 

Here is my way of fixing Vig.

 

1: Make it so that if we cannot use Master Strike as often as we normally do, we still do decent damage. Meaning that Master Strike needs to be important, but without it we don't hit like wet noodles.

 

2: Find a way to make Master Strike easier to apply.

 

I personally think that the Rotation needs to be resymmetricalized and that our execute needs to be real. My current list of fixes are:

 

Plasma and Overhead on a 9 second CD with 9 second DoTs (MAINTAIN THE SAME DAMAGE). Plasma brand is now a 4 focus cost.

 

INCREASE NON PLASMA BRAND DOT DAMAGE BY A LARGE AMOUNT.

 

Keening doesn't allow dispatch to be used at 30+% health anymore, but instead makes our Master Strike channel in 1.5 seconds. Same proc chances as before, BUT combat focus has a 100% chance to also trigger Keening OFF THE RATE LIMIT (This would be our offensive CD).

 

Restore autocrit dispatch (This would be used at sub 30% only so would not be supremely OP, much like OG vigilance.) The way it would work would be much like pre 2.0 Vigilance, IE: Force Rush is now a rolling buff. It grants 60% critical Chance to Blade Storm and Dispatch.

 

Focused Defense is returned to it's 45 second CD, 3 % heal on damage taken, and 10 second duration.

[Bare-Giin]

lol for real bro?

That forum has the cumulation of ideas of the jug/guard community for 3.0 and how to effect our viability for good. The fact it doesn't have a pretty title and that you're to lazy to give it a read through doesn't mean its invalid. On top of that, it covers all three specs, not just one.

 

Not to mention starting a 3.0 thread a week or two before the announcement of 3.0 is a little late. There has been ideas forming for a while now that I know BW has been keeping track of. It says Dear Bioware and is always on top of the posts in this section.

 

I am glad we have another forum poster who's willing to join in on the convo for us in 3.0, just do what we all did and join us instead of trying to make a pretty thread that has your name on it.

 

Well seems like i hit a sensitive spot there m8 sry if i made u upset . It says dear bioware and that is kinda one of the problems cuz from a perspective from someone who dosent read the forums very often, its very hard to understand that that thread actually has something to do with PVP and 3.0 at all, sounds more like a pve whining thread.. So would u guys pls reconsider and switch over to this one instead.. and to be clear this thread is about vengeance

 

And m8 if u think its important for me to have my name on a thread in this forum go ahead and make a new thread that covers all 3 speccs called 3.0 Juggernaut changes.. The point with this thread was to ONLY discuss vengeance cuz thats what i want to discuss

[Bare-Giin]

Repost from other thread.

 

Here is my way of fixing Vig.

 

1: Make it so that if we cannot use Master Strike as often as we normally do, we still do decent damage. Meaning that Master Strike needs to be important, but without it we don't hit like wet noodles.

 

2: Find a way to make Master Strike easier to apply.

 

I personally think that the Rotation needs to be resymmetricalized and that our execute needs to be real. My current list of fixes are:

 

Plasma and Overhead on a 9 second CD with 9 second DoTs (MAINTAIN THE SAME DAMAGE). Plasma brand is now a 4 focus cost.

 

INCREASE NON PLASMA BRAND DOT DAMAGE BY A LARGE AMOUNT.

 

Keening doesn't allow dispatch to be used at 30+% health anymore, but instead makes our Master Strike channel in 1.5 seconds. Same proc chances as before, BUT combat focus has a 100% chance to also trigger Keening OFF THE RATE LIMIT (This would be our offensive CD).

 

Restore autocrit dispatch (This would be used at sub 30% only so would not be supremely OP, much like OG vigilance.) The way it would work would be much like pre 2.0 Vigilance, IE: Force Rush is now a rolling buff. It grants 60% critical Chance to Blade Storm and Dispatch.

 

Focused Defense is returned to it's 45 second CD, 3 % heal on damage taken, and 10 second duration.

 

U got some nice ideas there m8! much like it was at the start, i would love getting autocrit on execute back.. only thing i disagree on is ur focus defense change, its fun to have it as it is now

[GrandLordMenace]

U got some nice ideas there m8! much like it was at the start, i would love getting autocrit on execute back.. only thing i disagree on is ur focus defense change, its fun to have it as it is now

 

It's OP now, if they gave us the burst of autocrit dispatch we'd be so OP it's not even funny.

 

Like this it will be fine. We would need AOE dr though.

[Marb]

Some posters have put forward some well thought out ideas for increasing our damage here and in the other thread, but I fear anything dps related is irrelevant until we can actually get on the ptr and test and compare. We have no idea how the new stat curves and budgets will impact our damage even as the spec currently stands.

 

I think we should be focusing the discussion on quality of life changes and ideas for raid utility.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Marb

[Vodamin]

Sry m8 but that thread just has way to much text in it for it to be viable as a 3.0 thread

 

Are you for real, m8?

[Bare-Giin]

It's OP now, if they gave us the burst of autocrit dispatch we'd be so OP it's not even funny.

 

Like this it will be fine. We would need AOE dr though.

 

Yeh u r prob right, autocrit dispatch aoe reduction and more upfront dmg on PB would be a nice trade for our focused defense as it is now .. One more change i have thought of is to change pooled hatred/gather strength to last for like 20 seconds or smt, cuz as it is now its nice but could be more useful with a little more uptime cuz of kiting and maybe give us 9% strength increasse instead of 6%.

[GrandLordMenace]

Yeh u r prob right, autocrit dispatch aoe reduction and more upfront dmg on PB would be a nice trade for our focused defense as it is now .. One more change i have thought of is to change pooled hatred/gather strength to last for like 20 seconds or smt, cuz as it is now its nice but could be more useful with a little more uptime cuz of kiting and maybe give us 9% strength increasse instead of 6%.

 

These are definitely valid ideas, do remember though that autocrit dispatch would be benefiting from Gather Strength, so this could make our burst also a little too OP, but I like the idea.

 

More upfront on Plasma would be nice. Right now it's a good talent, but in NiM if the burst phase is too short plasma is eschewed for other abilities. If the CD was shorter and the DoT did the same damage just faster it'd go a long way to stabilize DPS.

[Ottoattack]

I would remove healing from ED. Make its CD 45 secs. Gives 2 secs of unstoppable and can't be used while CCed.

 

Decrease the cast time of ravage to 2.5 secs.

 

Remove the dot from force scream and make it just a straight out increase to damage.

 

Decrease plasma brand dot and increase the base damage by 20-25%.

[veSev]

I would remove healing from ED. Make its CD 45 secs. Gives 2 secs of unstoppable and can't be used while CCed.

 

Decrease the cast time of ravage to 2.5 secs.

 

Remove the dot from force scream and make it just a straight out increase to damage.

 

Decrease plasma brand dot and increase the base damage by 20-25%.

 

So basically you want 2 focus specs? Where one is aoe damage and the other is single target? By removing dots and increasing damage vig/veng would look similar to infiltration. We'd be far more dependent on crits than we already are.

 

Are you for real, m8?

 

Reading is difficult lol.

Edited October 3, 2014 by veSev

[cs_zoltan]

I would remove healing from ED. Make its CD 45 secs. Gives 2 secs of unstoppable and can't be used while CCed.

 

And the most useless CD award goes to...

 

 

 

 

 

...Your ED suggestion.

[GrandLordMenace]

And the most useless CD award goes to...

 

 

 

 

 

...Your ED suggestion.

 

Riiiight?

[Ottoattack]

And the most useless CD award goes to...

 

 

 

 

 

...Your ED suggestion.

 

That is the point. Currently veng is unnecessarily too survivable yet their dps is not is not good. In PvP they are way too powerful when there is a lack of healers, and mediocre in presence of healers. Also, the unnecessary extra survivability limits damage buffs and basically the spec is solo ranked troll and semi useless everywhere else.

 

Why not cut over the top survivability, and get increased mobility (which my suggestion is) and slight improvement in damage?

Edited October 3, 2014 by Ottoattack

[cs_zoltan]

That is the point. Currently veng is unnecessarily too survivable yet their dps is not is not good. In PvP they are way too powerful when there is a lack of healers, and mediocre in presence of healers. Also, the unnecessary extra survivability limits damage buffs and basically the spec is solo ranked troll and semi useless everywhere else.

 

Why not cut over the top survivability, and get increased mobility (which my suggestion is) and slight improvement in damage?

 

I don't think that CC immunity with 4.5% uptime would do much, unless you can read minds and know EXACTLY when they will stun you.

[Bare-Giin]

One more idea that i came to think off is to change preperation to

 

Preparation: - Enrage/Combat focus now instantly grants 5 stacks of pooled hatred/gather strength, lasts for 20 seconds. Addiitionally pooled hatred/gather strength now grants 10% increassed critial chance for each stack.

 

but then we need to merge and move some talents cuz the tree is soo damn bloated as it is now.. merge accuracy with single saber mastery and the dots from scream and impale and bingo

[CaptainLunch]

One more idea that i came to think off is to change preperation to

 

Preparation: - Enrage/Combat focus now instantly grants 5 stacks of pooled hatred/gather strength, lasts for 20 seconds. Addiitionally pooled hatred/gather strength now grants 10% increassed critial chance for each stack.

 

but then we need to merge and move some talents cuz the tree is soo damn bloated as it is now.. merge accuracy with single saber mastery and the dots from scream and impale and bingo

 

What is the point of 5 stacks, why not just say 50% crit? Is the point to increase crit on the next 5 abilities?

 

[̶P̶u̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶2̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶a̶n̶k̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶u̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶o̶c̶u̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶.̶]̶

edit: misread that sorry

 

Lets keep the discussion on how to improve Guardian dps to one thread so ideas don't get missed .

Edited October 4, 2014 by CaptainLunch

[Bare-Giin]

What is the point of 5 stacks, why not just say 50% crit? Is the point to increase crit on the next 5 abilities?

 

[̶P̶u̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶a̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶2̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶a̶n̶k̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶u̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶o̶c̶u̶s̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶.̶]̶

edit: misread that sorry

 

Lets keep the discussion on how to improve Guardian dps to one thread so ideas don't get missed .

 

No no, gather strength / pooled hatred gets consumed by the first attack that costs rage/focus (20% increassed dmg at 5 stacks) as u prob know? and it stays that way, it just gets more useful

[GrandLordMenace]

No no, gather strength / pooled hatred gets consumed by the first attack that costs rage/focus (20% increassed dmg at 5 stacks) as u prob know? and it stays that way, it just gets more useful

 

As an offensive CD... that might work...

 

for a sustained DPS increase...

 

What if Gather Strength procced off DoTs or something and it was consumed by melee attacks that consumed focus? 1 stack is procced every time a Damage over Time effect hits a target.

Edited October 4, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[cs_zoltan]

As an offensive CD... that might work...

 

for a sustained DPS increase...

 

What if Gather Strength procced off DoTs or something and it was consumed by melee attacks that consumed focus? 1 stack is procced every time a Damage over Time effect hits a target.

 

More mandatory dps talent? Pls no...If they merge talents though...

[GrandLordMenace]

More mandatory dps talent? Pls no...If they merge talents though...

 

Yeah agreed. This class has WAY too many talents. that are good / wanted / necessary.