Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[DarthTHC]

Which is more beneficial, for Conquest points of course, in your opinion, Operations or gathering resources?

 

I would like to alter the question and instead suggest what's best for the game, specifically within the context of Conquests.

 

What's best for the game within the context of Conquests are activities that promote the guild acting as a team. I believe this because I believe that affinity with a good guild strongly influences player retention and activity, and probably even subscriptions.

 

The manner in which guilds can act as a team in War Zones, GSF, Operations, and Flash Points is obvious, right? Just Do It.

 

However, guilds can also act as a team in crafting for Conquest points. It requires organization and communication - the same thing that effectively tackling a HM or NiM Op requires. The difference between crafting and that Op is that the organization and communication can happen over a longer period of time than "this encounter" or a 3 hour op run.

 

So the TL;DR answer is - no method of conquest point acquisition is inherently any more or less beneficial, to the game, than any other.

[DarthTHC]

Oh I really wanted to stay away... But I can't...

 

People saying no one will spend gobs of money just to win at a computer game, think again...

 

How do you think F2P games stay in business? Shoot I'm really surprised that this game has not gone the direction of other games (and I suspect that it could be part of the announcement, we shall see)...

 

In EQ, EQ2, and LOTRO just to name 3 you can BUY your levels to previous content... Yes I said BUY with real money... When SOE did it with EQ and EQ2, subs got one free. LOTRO did a discount for subs when it launched. And people buy these at $50 a pop in most cases. And several. EQ and EQ2 comes with full legendary gear on top of it. Sure you need to hit the next few levels, but that's nothing...

 

Another game famous for people spending money is Evony... That game is a damned cash cow.. I couldn't believe the amount of money people would pay to win in a glorified chat room.. Literally hundreds of dollars (a couple people I know spent thousands) per server just to win... And people WILL do it. It's not even a good game and people drop that kind of cash. People spend massive amounts on Farmville and Candy Crush just to flex epeens... Why on earth would anyone expect a MMO to be any different. I really would not be surprised if people were spending hundreds of dollars per week just to get mats to win a conquest... Shoot I'm pretty sure I know at least 2 people that are...

 

The only P2W item in this game is +41 crystals, and many will even argue those are not P2W.

[DarthTHC]

The level of cognitive dissonance right here is hilarious. Theres nothing preventing anyone from doing NiM operations if they have the gear/skill level. So why should crafting be the only one included in this argument? You are trying to stay on one side of the fence so hard that you blindly make arguments which could be applied to both.

 

The post I made that you quoted didn't single out any specific means of acquiring points, but instead pointed out that the same rules apply to all players.

 

As long as you play within the rules, and as near as I can tell the game prevents you from doing otherwise, it's fair.

 

It might not be what some want, but it's not unfair.

 

You'll have to explain where you think the cognitive dissonance comes in. Did you just learn that phrase but haven't figured out what it really is yet?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

All we are advocating for is that all forms of conquest activities be balanced in the conquest points they give. And that people should be able to choose what they like to do to earn conquest points, not be pigeon-holed into doing one type of activity because it's by far the most efficient.

 

Exactly which part of conquest forces anyone to craft being that you can craft AND run other content? Gathering materials for crafting? Well then you choose to run that stupidly boring activity if that's the case. One would have to think if we did take material gathering ( as in running around clicking nodes ) into consideration does crafting actual still come out as a more efficient means of conquest points vs time spent after that point. If however you are buying mats well refer to the top of this reply ... you can run other content whilst doing that.

 

The beauty of crafting is it's something EVERYONE can do whilst doing OTHER things.

 

I tend to agree with others that think the big winning guilds now on their pedestals over crafting don't want to have to go through the rigmarole they went through to get top spots in the past from crafting or simply can't afford it but likewise don't want to slip down the ranks because they know they have the numbers ( players/toons ) to dominate in other objectives if crafting weren't such a big factor.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

you obviously didnt read any of the 46 pages where it was cleary and reasonable shown why crafting in conquest is broken.

 

derp

 

 

If it was clearly explained and PROVEN there wouldn't be 46 pages arguing over it would there. Put up or shut up, don't just make idle side comments that prove nothing what so ever. Back to general chat with you.

[TUXs]

Oh I really wanted to stay away... But I can't...

 

People saying no one will spend gobs of money just to win at a computer game, think again...

 

How do you think F2P games stay in business?

 

No kidding. The ignorance of some people is mind boggling.

[JasonNH]

So the TL;DR answer is - no method of conquest point acquisition is inherently any more or less beneficial, to the game, than any other.

 

Which is why it is so curious that one method of conquest is so much more potentially powerful than all the others.

[Rambeezy]

I would like to alter the question and instead suggest what's best for the game, specifically within the context of Conquests.

 

What's best for the game within the context of Conquests are activities that promote the guild acting as a team. I believe this because I believe that affinity with a good guild strongly influences player retention and activity, and probably even subscriptions.

 

The manner in which guilds can act as a team in War Zones, GSF, Operations, and Flash Points is obvious, right? Just Do It.

 

However, guilds can also act as a team in crafting for Conquest points. It requires organization and communication - the same thing that effectively tackling a HM or NiM Op requires. The difference between crafting and that Op is that the organization and communication can happen over a longer period of time than "this encounter" or a 3 hour op run.

 

So the TL;DR answer is - no method of conquest point acquisition is inherently any more or less beneficial, to the game, than any other.

 

Let me help you with the correct time frame for completing NiM operations.

 

Exit Area was formed with 2 purposes in mind, clearing NiM DP before the buff went away and to also create an 8 man team that would be highly competitive for future content. When the guild first started trying to put together a raid team we went multiple nights with people not showing up. We, like most new teams, started out very slowly. It took us about 4 weeks to get our core 8 together and we didnt kill council until the last week the buff was available. So all in all, that first kill which yielded zero conquest points, took about 5 weeks to complete, not 3 hours. Yes once we had NiM DP on farm it only took us a little over an hour to clear it but we can only clesr it once a week.

 

Crafting takes 50 minutes to get 500 base conquest points. It requires zero teamwork to level up. If people choose to help you then thats great but comparing the teamwork required to craft and the teamwork required to clear NiM DP is silly. The two arent even in the same universe homie.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Rambeezy

[Psychopyro]

The only P2W item in this game is +41 crystals, and many will even argue those are not P2W.

 

For now... But you can buy CC, which you can then get packs, which you can sell, which you can buy more mats... Yes eventually there will be a huge bubble that will burst on the mats end. But I am sure there are people doing this just to win conquest... To point, on my old server in my old guild, which has won several planets (maybe even one every cycle, I'd have to look to be sure), there are players with 350k+ per character on multiple characters just for last week. With the planet they took, it all had to be crafting... Just for the math on that, at 24/6 at approx 47.5 min average per item, you'd need approx 66 stacks of each of the 3 items to supply you thru the week, per character.. Sorry not many people are going to be able to keep up that level of farming.. You'd eventually have to buy the mats. And I'm not even sure a server could sustain that much (supplying to the GTN), which means buying CPs just to use the junk for more mats... Clearly this is pay to win....

 

But I have some scary feeling that this "expansion" is gonna come with some f'd up treat that has to do with a magic level up that you can purchase with CC... They can't be blind as to how much money the other games are making with this... Shoot I almost expect it to come with a maxed crafting profession as well.... Or maybe that'll be another thing you can buy separate from a leveled character.

[Rambeezy]

The post I made that you quoted didn't single out any specific means of acquiring points, but instead pointed out that the same rules apply to all players.

 

As long as you play within the rules, and as near as I can tell the game prevents you from doing otherwise, it's fair.

 

It might not be what some want, but it's not unfair.

 

You'll have to explain where you think the cognitive dissonance comes in. Did you just learn that phrase but haven't figured out what it really is yet?

 

It comes from you limiting your argument to crafting but also claiming that the current system is fair under said argument.

 

Edit: You basically said that the system is unfair and said its fair.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Rambeezy

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Crafting takes 50 minutes to get 500 base conquest points. It requires zero teamwork to level up. If people choose to help uou then thats great but comparing the teamwork required to craft and the teamwork required to clear NiM DP is silly. The two arent even in the same universe homie.

 

I think from what I gather ( get it, gather? ) on the guilds going super hard out on crafting there is large amounts of team work involved in organising people to get mats, sharing mats etc. etc. - even more teamwork involved for the guilds that exploit other parts of the game for conquest points ( GSF/WZ/FPs/Ops couple of others I've heard about ) . Sure for most people it's just about crafting what you can off your own back but for the guilds putting out huge numbers in crafting there is quite a bit more involved for it all to work out between them all.

 

Is it as difficult as NiM? Of course not but it still requires a high level of organization ( more so than NiM raids ) just with the share numbers involved. If anything we should admire the top conquest guilds for that, well their leaders anyway.

[DarthTHC]

Let me help you with the correct time frame for completing NiM operations.

 

Exit Area was formed with 2 purposes in mind, clearing NiM DP before the buff went away and to also create an 8 man team that would be highly competitive for future content. When the guild first started trying to put together a raid team we went multiple nights with people not showing up. We, like most new teams, started out very slowly. It took us about 4 weeks to get our core 8 together and we didnt kill council until the last week the buff was available. So all in all, that first kill which yielded zero conquest points, took about 5 weeks to complete, not 3 hours. Yes once we had NiM DP on farm it only took us a little over an hour to clear it but we can only clesr it once a week.

 

Crafting takes 50 minutes to get 500 base conquest points. It requires zero teamwork to level up. If people choose to help you then thats great but comparing the teamwork required to craft and the teamwork required to clear NiM DP is silly. The two arent even in the same universe homie.

 

Are there any other benefits to clearing the NiM content, aside from the Jagganath... er, Conquest points you might have acquired?

 

How do those compare with the other benefits of crafting War Supplies?

 

You are absolutely correct that these two things aren't even in the same universe... "homie". To suggest they should be equal, in either direction, is farcical.

Edited October 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[DarthTHC]

It comes from you limiting your argument to crafting but also claiming that the current system is fair under said argument.

 

As others have pointed out, the only tangible benefit to creating War Supplies is Conquest Points.

 

There are tangible benefits to the other activities that can also earn Conquest Points.

 

Balance needs to consider the entire breadth of the game, not just a single aspect of it.

[Rambeezy]

As others have pointed out, the only tangible benefit to creating War Supplies is Conquest Points.

 

There are tangible benefits to the other activities that can also earn Conquest Points.

 

Balance needs to consider the entire breadth of the game, not just a single aspect of it.

 

I'm gonna stop saying that crafting needs to be nerfed but everyone else needs to start saying that NiM progression guilds are getting shafted when it comes to conquest points.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Rambeezy

[Elfa]

Current winning guild leaders are like:

 

A-B-C. A-always, B-be, C-crafting. Always be crafting! Always be crafting!! A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action. Attention -- do I have your attention? Interest -- are you interested? I know you are because it's craft or walk. You craft or you hit the bricks! Decision -- have you made your decision for Crafting?!! And action. A-I-D-A; get out there!! You got the mats comin' in; you think they came in to stack up in the guild bank? Guy doesn't join the guild unless he wants to craft. Sitting out there waiting to give you their mats! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it? What's the problem pal? You.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Elfa

[Nepthen]

OK that took a long time to catch up on. Admittedly, I didn't read every single word in every single post...

 

There are a few choke points regarding the conquerable planets. Taris was indeed a big one. In fact, if neither WOOK nor Triumph invaded it, we would have.

 

The sheer quantity of conquest points that both Taris guilds put up is staggering, to say the least. Very impressive, too of course. It shows outstanding determination, teamwork, and the will to win, things that I believe 2.9 was intended to bring. However, I don't believe that crafting should be the obvious choice in order to get those points. How different would the competition have been if crafting was taken out of the equation, by a hard cap on points or some other means? That would have been something to watch. Both guilds are Republic...imagine the Warzones if they get paired against each other. Hell, imagine if one Republic team is made up of two pre-mades, one from WOOK and one from Triumph? That level of competition would have been great.

 

I of course cannot speak to everyone in both guilds but I can agree with Paragon here (I did earlier... about 40 pages ago). Crafting needs addressed. Yes, it's extremely useful for getting those extra points but I refuse to believe that BioWare would prefer people send out companions all day and craft useless (at this point in the game) items instead of running non-stop FPs, Ops, WZs, GSF... you know, the more "active" type of content. Yes I realize that you can send out companions while running the other content... but if you're in a op, you can't stop every 20 minutes to log your 15 other toons into the game to resend companions.

 

Maybe this was just designed to be a massive credit and material sink. If that is the case, then we all fell for it. ORD has crafted to victory when needed (week 1 against Covenant of the Phoenix especially). We even did a small crafting bomb with our Imperial guild this past week to sneak into the 9th spot on Imperial Taris. I can say that while winning planets is great, we as a guild had way more fun winning planets by means of WZs (even though we're not known for PvP), OPs, FPs, GSF, Heroics, etc.

 

TL;DNR I agree with Paragon and the others who share his point. Crafting needs adjusted in some way to bring it more in line with the other conquest objectives, point per activity wise.

 

 

Thank you.

[curulz]

Again, we brought the issue up before we ever had any competition on a planet

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=763243&highlight=Conquest+crafting

 

we will do our hardest to win whatever the circumstances, none of this takes any validity away from the fact that crafting is overpowered.

 

And it is also doesn't take away the motives. You want to win. No issues with that. And if you wanted, I'm sure you could win without crafting, even if most other guilds crafted their butts off.....you just don't want to take the chance. Which is fine, no problem.....just don't try and act all noble about why you want the change implemented.

[DarthTHC]

I'm gonna stop saying that crafting needs to be nerfed but everyone else needs to start saying that NiM progression guilds are getting shafted when it comes to conquest points.

 

If you want to be a NiM ops guild, be that! You can still craft during the op (when you're not fighting, obviously) and during times you're not in the op, right?

 

Or should we also start saying that crafters are getting shafted when it comes to obtaining top-tier PvE gear?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Credit sink yes and they are apparently making money from it by people buying up hypercrates with real world money. Some could call this pay to win I guess but it's kind of borderline to me since you aren't really winning anything of consequence ...

 

It's really no different imo to doing the same thing and having millions to buy up the 2nd best tier gear on the GTN ( yes, crazy way of doing it but still possible ) to avoid running content to earn it or even funding your guild with items etc. you've used real world money to get ahold as a means of minor bribery to attract the best members and aim for your world firsts or what not.

 

So yeah the whole pay to win aspect is no bigger issue than it already was. If people want to blow through 100's of millions of credits on mats to have a shot at a leaderboard, kudos to them.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm sure you could win without crafting, even if most other guilds crafted their butts off.....you just don't want to take the chance.

 

Lol no they couldn't and that's why some people are annoyed that they have to craft or simply cannot afford to keep it up.

 

I see the point but what about people that don't want to exploit operations final bosses because they feel it's cheap and not worthy of the conquest points? Shouldn't actual exploits get fixed before worrying about this minor issue?

 

*shrug*

 

I will admit one thing from all of this debate etc. is it's giving a lot of attention/fame/infamy to some guilds that would be considered mediocre ( or worse ) in pre GSH terms. Taken away a lot of the limelight for the top NiM content guilds with their world/server firsts etc. which has helped kill off a bit of the elitist attitude that was becoming somewhat prevalent amongst some. Be these a good thing or a bad thing? Everyone will have their own opinions on that.

[Psychopyro]

Honestly I almost think the crafting to win is by design. And I think that money for EA was the factor as to why it's like that...

 

Operations were already one time per character, so I don't really understand this lock. But non subs have to buy a pass. Hence if this is a conquest event = money...

 

PvP being repeatable. Again, this requires a pass if you are a non sub. Hence if it is the only repeatable = must buy pass = more money

 

Starfighter being repeatable. Has a pass that grants more req. While not needed, the pass helps gains, which would help them do better (not everyone likes to lose all the time) = more money

 

Crafting being repeatable. They added resource selection to the Cartel Packs on purpose (I know people will say it's because we kept getting junk resources, but that is not why) to get mats another way. Buying more cartel packs either for the mats, or to sell them = more money...

 

Nerfed flashpoints... The only thing the pass did was allow access to loot.. Big deal.. No FP really has any good loot anymore... Since there is no FP pass, there was no need to keep it as repeatable because no one is going to buy it if your just doing it enmass for points anyways... There was no money in it and big guilds cried cause little guilds found a way to keep up.. So it was made 1 per legacy.. Honestly would not surprise me if heroics went this way soon. If I were on my old server I could knock out a lot of points everyday as I had 18 55s.... I know people that have many more then that.... All of this is not making money...

 

If you look at all those things, either people would be spending money on passes to participate, or buying CPs for mats, or subbing... What does not make money for EA, nerfed or removed... It's by design... It's not a credit sink... It's a money grab..

[JediUmbra]

And yes, Triumph™ has a lot of active members in many aspects of the game, cept gsf (who even plays that crap anymore)

 

Assuming Large_Signature is correct on this, it would appear GSF is Triumphs Achilles heel. Wook has a number of active GSF players, myself included. It would seem that conquest week of "Clash in Hyperspace" would be an ideal time for Wook to mount a rematch.

 

Except for crafting. Even with the GSF disparity, I will not be recommending to my guild to take on Triumph during Clash in Hyperspace; crafting trumps GSF, even in the GSF week.

 

Case in point.

Edited October 1, 2014 by JediUmbra

[Elfa]

Current winning guild leaders are like:

 

A-B-C. A-always, B-be, C-crafting. Always be crafting! Always be crafting!! A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action. Attention -- do I have your attention? Interest -- are you interested? I know you are because it's craft or walk. You craft or you hit the bricks! Decision -- have you made your decision for Crafting?!! And action. A-I-D-A; get out there!! You got the mats comin' in; you think they came in to stack up in the guild bank? Guy doesn't join the guild unless he wants to craft. Sitting out there waiting to give you their mats! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it? What's the problem pal? You.

 

I wish I was joking but the top guilds can be just this serious and rough about it.

[Large_Signature]

If it was clearly explained and PROVEN there wouldn't be 46 pages arguing over it would there. Put up or shut up, don't just make idle side comments that prove nothing what so ever. Back to general chat with you.

 

As I said before, you cant reason with stupid, which is why sadly we still have people not listening to the clear, obvious fact that crafting is broken.

 

le sigh

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I wish I was joking but the top guilds can be just this serious and rough about it.

 

Lol yeah though at which point you can kind go "Hangon, the rewards from this stupid conquest thing suck anyway, I'm going to another guild".

 

I had a quick look at the live scores at some of the guilds spoken about in this thread aren't doing overly well this week and I'm sure they'll put it down to can't be bothered crafting ( because THAT takes more time and effort than organizing the op/wz/gsf hax <- sarcasm there ) but it's probably more like they cannot afford to sustain what they had done previously which many people have said would happen and be the case and it appears to be so even if they do try hide it behind false rhetoric. It's no wonder then they want crafting nerfed because as I said earlier, they no they have the numbers to put out top scores if crafting weren't there for this weeks "rich" guild to take advantage of.

 

As I said before, you cant reason with stupid, which is why sadly we still have people not listening to the clear, obvious fact that crafting is broken.

 

Stating the same stupid, unfounded point you made earlier doesn't make you correct you do realize? There is nothing broken about it, it works perfectly well. Your arguments are flawed and you've been called on them many times. At some point you just have to no when to give up and walk away, kind of like your guild is going at this weeks conquest event it would seem nahmsayim.