Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[Darth_Wicked]

You really are a funny person.

 

Argument better next time, assuming you can.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[ParagonAX]

I still don't really understand what your issue is. People do all aspects of conquest to win. If you don't, you won't win. So...

 

Basically, because this dude doesn't like crafting, but still wanted to gloat about the victory? That's just sad.

 

In case you missed all 25+ pages of comments, let me break it down for you:

 

• BW intended there to be different ways to earn conquest points - FACT
  
• BW gave us different themes each week that gives boosts to different kinds of activities (FP, WZ, crafting, Operations) - FACT
  
• Crafting provides completely out of wack conquest points compared to any other activity - see OP for details - 9k points per toon per day for FP, vs. 140k points per toon per day for crafting - mind you, this is during a FP themed conquest week called Flashpoint Havoc - FACT
  
• As a result, it does not matter what theme, planet, week, bonus there is, no other conquest activity matters because crafting reigns supreme.
  

 

Hope this summarizes what the issue is. If you still don't see it, I really can't help you.

Edited September 30, 2014 by ParagonAX

[ParagonAX]

Argument better next time, assuming you can.

 

Already done numerous times throughout this entire thread. You are just too myopic to see it.

[Darth_Wicked]

In case you missed all 25+ pages of comments, let me break it down for you:

 

• BW intended there to be different ways to earn conquest points - FACT
  
• BW gave us different themes each week that gives boosts to different kinds of activities (FP, WZ, crafting, Operations) - FACT
  
• Crafting provides completely out of wack conquest points compared to any other activity - see OP for details - 9k points per toon per day for FP, vs. 140k points per toon per day for crafting - FACT
  
• As a result, it does not matter what theme, planet, week, bonus there is, no other conquest activity matters because crafting reigns supreme.
  

 

Hope this summarizes what the issue is. If you still don't see it, I really can't help you.

 

Doesn't change what I mentioned earlier.

 

Again, your problem is not so much whether the system is working as intended, but more so that you and your buddies are burned out from crafting. Period.

 

You said this yourself.

 

The post was deleted but I remember your buddy on Reddit, while insulting back and forth, claiming that you guys were number #1 in the world, concerning planetary conquests.

 

Before attaining that position -- assuming he was being honest -- did you have a problem with the system or it only started now?

[ParagonAX]

Doesn't change what I mentioned earlier.

 

Again, your problem is not so much whether the system is working as intended, but more so that you and your buddies are burned out from crafting. Period.

 

You said this yourself.

 

The post was deleted but I remember your buddy on Reddit, while insulting back and forth, claiming that you guys were number #1 in the world, concerning planetary conquests.

 

Before attaining that position -- assuming he was being honest -- did you have a problem with the system or it only started now?

 

Still the same old myopia.

[Darth_Wicked]

Already done numerous times throughout this entire thread. You are just too myopic to see it.

 

I see things for what they are. As I mentioned at one point, you hardly come across as altruistic.

 

You explored the system extensively to win over and over again; Back then, it is logical to assume it was working just fine. Now that you're burned up because of it, it is no longer working as intended.

 

What a laugh.

 

Still the same old myopia.

 

I guess you have a problem with logic then.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[magicallypuzzled]

working as intended as far as i can see crafting is the only activity that you can engaged in to get conquest points without being gimped by skill or gear. it's the great equaliser that lets everyone get as many points as they want to contribute and is badly needed. without it no small guild would have any chance to get in the top 10 sure it also lets the top 1 or 2 be unchallenged but frankly no one needs to ever be top 1 or 2 it'd be nice but there is no real advantage to it. it rewards people that want to help the guild but just play casually and frankly not very good at that which is very much needed to not lose players.

 

i don't see a problem just because winning is so important to some people that they are willing to stress themselves out so much to do it for a meaningless title that no one even notices in the first place.

[Jadescythe]

Doesn't change what I mentioned earlier.

 

Again, your problem is not so much whether the system is working as intended, but more so that you and your buddies are burned out from crafting. Period.

 

You said this yourself.

 

The post was deleted but I remember your buddy on Reddit, while insulting back and forth, claiming that you guys were number #1 in the world, concerning planetary conquests.

 

Before attaining that position -- assuming he was being honest -- did you have a problem with the system or it only started now?

 

Your argument that the OP is posting the issue with the wrong intentions isn't an argument against the change. Perhaps I'm a supporter of tax breaks for people who drive hybrid cars because they are better for the environment even though they cost a little more money. Whether I drive a hybrid car or not, it could still be a good idea. It comes down to whether the change will improve the situation for the majority by keeping the Earth healthier, not just myself.

 

I won't argue whether your points regarding the OP's intentions are valid since I don't have as much background on this situation, but it's obvious that the highest potential for points is far and away from crafting. It simply needs to be brought into line with other avenues of unlimited point potential like warzones and flashpoints. The facts and numbers back up the argument, not the OPs feelings towards crafting.

[AlienEyeTX]

In case you missed all 25+ pages of comments, let me break it down for you:

 

• BW intended there to be different ways to earn conquest points - FACT
  
• BW gave us different themes each week that gives boosts to different kinds of activities (FP, WZ, crafting, Operations) - FACT
  
• Crafting provides completely out of wack conquest points compared to any other activity - see OP for details - 9k points per toon per day for FP, vs. 140k points per toon per day for crafting - mind you, this is during a FP themed conquest week called Flashpoint Havoc - FACT
  
• As a result, it does not matter what theme, planet, week, bonus there is, no other conquest activity matters because crafting reigns supreme.
  

 

Hope this summarizes what the issue is. If you still don't see it, I really can't help you.

 

So, the crafting part is always the same and the "supporting" parts change. Yep, I still fail to see the issue. Don't like crafting? Don't try to win conquest every week.

[Laris_Rai]

In other words, boast. Got it.

 

Seriously. Is anyone actually impressed by stuff like this?

[AlienEyeTX]

Seriously. Is anyone actually impressed by stuff like this?

 

Yes. The OP is, apparently, very impressed with himself.

[Darth_Wicked]

* snip *

 

I am not making an argument against any change.

 

I always assumed that was obvious.

 

My issue is with people -- such as the OP -- who explore a system as much as possible and after they're burned up, they claim the system is not working as intended.

 

This of course only happens AFTER they explored the system extensively to their advantage.

[oofalong]

So, the crafting part is always the same and the "supporting" parts change. Yep, I still fail to see the issue. Don't like crafting? Don't try to win conquest every week.

 

By design isn't the purpose to win Conquests? As such, the current structure offers the best rewards to those who earn the most Conquest points, and the best way to earn Conquest points is to craft. It really is this simple.

 

Yes, this particular issue came to pass because two large guilds were able to invest an inordinate amount of resources - time, credits and crafting materials - in order to achieve obscenely high scores. This phenomenon may never occur again or it may repeat itself every week going forward. Still, the Conquest system is flawed.

 

I would liken this to the Ilum PvP behavior shortly after launch. (If you aren't familiar with it, you can read about it here, here and here.) The theory of Ilum as an open world PvP planet made sense; however, in practice players were finding alternative tactics to win/gain rewards. BioWare changed this system, and Ilum has never been the same.

 

To complete the parallel, Ilum PvP was broken resulting in unintended outcomes just like Conquest crafting appears to be broken resulting in unintended outcomes. This is the purpose of ParagonAX's original post.

[ivanhedgehog]

I am not making an argument against any change.

 

I always assumed that was obvious.

 

My issue is with people -- such as the OP -- who explore a system as much as possible and after they're burned up, they claim the system is not working as intended.

 

This of course only happens AFTER they explored the system extensively to their advantage.

 

do you mean exploited? not the same thing...there was no exploit because there was no bug. crafting needs to be balanced more in line with other endeavors within conquest.

[AlienEyeTX]

By design isn't the purpose to win Conquests? As such, the current structure offers the best rewards to those who earn the most Conquest points, and the best way to earn Conquest points is to craft. It really is this simple.

 

Yes, this particular issue came to pass because two large guilds were able to invest an inordinate amount of resources - time, credits and crafting materials - in order to achieve obscenely high scores. This phenomenon may never occur again or it may repeat itself every week going forward. Still, the Conquest system is flawed.

 

I would liken this to the Ilum PvP behavior shortly after launch. (If you aren't familiar with it, you can read about it here, here and here.) The theory of Ilum as an open world PvP planet made sense; however, in practice players were finding alternative tactics to win/gain rewards. BioWare changed this system, and Ilum has never been the same.

 

To complete the parallel, Ilum PvP was broken resulting in unintended outcomes just like Conquest crafting appears to be broken resulting in unintended outcomes. This is the purpose of ParagonAX's original post.

 

I like the position of the person who stated that crafting is the "great equalizer" of conquests. I don't see it as broken. I see it as one of the components of conquest. No one is going to win JUST by crafting. It simply isn't going to happen.

 

That being stated, if BW decides to adjust the system, fine. But there's not really any reason to do so at this point. If they thought it was a problem, they would change it like they did with FPs.

[Orizuru]

do you mean exploited? not the same thing...there was no exploit because there was no bug. crafting needs to be balanced more in line with other endeavors within conquest.

 

Seeing as how the word explored was used twice, I suspect he made that post from a mobile phone or tablet and autocorrect took a little creative license.

[oofalong]

I like the position of the person who stated that crafting is the "great equalizer" of conquests. I don't see it as broken. I see it as one of the components of conquest. No one is going to win JUST by crafting. It simply isn't going to happen.

 

That being stated, if BW decides to adjust the system, fine. But there's not really any reason to do so at this point. If they thought it was a problem, they would change it like they did with FPs.

 

This is exactly what happened last week; Triumph and WOOK crafted their way to first and second. And, it wasn't like crafting gave them a slight edge it gave them a 10x+ advantage over their closest competitors.

 

Many of the detractors in this thread are upset that the perpetrator of the offense is now the one calling for reform. Unfortunately, this masks the problem that Conquest crafting is broken. Instead of worrying about who did what, people should ask themselves if they want to participate in an unwinnable system unless you craft. This is not to say that every planet will be conquered by a guild that crafts their way to victory, but the threat of it will always be there. And, given the opportunistic behavior that abounds in games crafting to win will become more and more routine.

[JediUmbra]

First off, on behalf of Wook, congratulations to Triumph on their Taris victory. Well played.

 

(Apologies for the lengthy post, I had a lot to say.)

 

My feeling is that Wook agrees with Triumph on this issue. Crafting to win is overpowered, and we would like to see it changed.

 

I am the self appointed theory crafter for Wook, and amateur game theorist. I hold a large amount of responsibility for the Taris war, as I determined that whoever won Taris would almost certainly be first to get the "Galactic Conqueror" title, and wouldn't take no for answer on invading Taris. So a pre-congratulations to Triumph for being guild server first Galactic Conqueror (I expect individuals with character in multiple guilds to get it earlier, but I digress).

 

Since people like visuals, here's a pie chart of the breakdown of Wooks points earned per player.

 

Even without labels, you can visually see that our top 2 players generated 1/4 of our points. It's public knowledge that we made about 37 million points, so 37/4 = 9.25 million, or about 4.6 million each (for the record, I was #2).

 

On a lot of planets on most servers, we could have each secured a planet SOLO. I suspect Triumphs top members could have done the same.

 

I used 7 crafters to do it. I had 1 non-crafter in addition. My non-crafter made 52000 points, my worst crafter 426000, my best crafter 798000. While I certainly did not max out my non-crafter, I didn't max out my crafters either.

 

Our top 6 players generated over 1/2 of our points. Our top 12 made up 3/4. Or 19 mil and 28 mil respectively.

 

This is in no way me suggesting that crafting gives small guilds a chance to compete against large guilds. While we didn't see it happen here, it is entirely possible for a large guild to do the same thing on a larger scale, generating hundreds of millions of points, assuming credits and mats allow. The small guild vs large guild problem is a separate issue, was not the purpose to the OP, and is off-topic.

 

Some further metrics to give perspective to those numbers.

 

We had nearly max characters in guild for the week (ie game imposed max of 500). 301 characters contributed at least 1 point. 63 players contributed points. 198 characters met their 35k conquest objective.

 

Those are the real world numbers. They are all pretty close to in line with a standard population (statistics).

 

On the theory side of things, I calculate that crafting is 4 times superior to the next best point gathering method in the WORST case scenario (no bonus to crafting, 3x bonus to Ops/FPs). It is as much as 8 times superior in the best case.

 

In game theory, this is known as a "saddle point", which means that it is superior to all other strategies, and therefore the only strategy that should be employed. In other words, it is the ONLY strategy.

 

My Nightmare

 

I fear I have created a monster. Triumph most definitely learned from their experience battling Wook. They will be even more efficient in future. Expect them to be able to post 50 or 60 mil weeks if needed. More in crafting weeks.

 

While I don't believe they intend to do the following, it is certainly possible for them. They can now grief the conquest system. They can choose guilds they wish to block from conquering a planet, and invade there. They can probably even wait a day until everyone decides their planets. I don't believe there are any guilds that can stop them.

 

A single entity wielding that kind of power is game breaking. That's bad.

 

It sounds as though they even have the resources to do it on multiple servers simultaneously.

 

EDIT: My point isn't that Triumph is doing anything wrong, they are playing the game the way it's built. My point is the system is broken.

By creating this thread, Paragon has shown responsible use of Triumphs power. Please continue this trend.

Edited September 30, 2014 by JediUmbra

[Jadescythe]

I am not making an argument against any change.

 

I always assumed that was obvious.

 

My issue is with people -- such as the OP -- who explore a system as much as possible and after they're burned up, they claim the system is not working as intended.

 

This of course only happens AFTER they explored the system extensively to their advantage.

 

So it's bolster exploit all over again. The only way to find out about bolster was for people to exploit and for people to call them out. I guess the real question is would they have lost without the crafting points? Which I can't even hazard a guess at. But if you ever want to win a planet you will have to do more than what they did to beat them. Is that how people want conquest to be? Drop 500 million on crafting stuff so you have a chance to win? I assume not.

 

Ideally, you could win by playing the game however you want, but right now crafting is 100% essential to winning.

[Domatron]

No one is going to win JUST by crafting. It simply isn't going to happen.

 

Now you show your true ignorance on the topic at hand. You absolutely can win by only crafting as no other activity can match it in time efficiency (you can get points while offline ffs)

 

Maybe re-read the OP and see the math, then multiply the crafting by however many crafter alts on account has that don't even have to be online.

 

Crafting outpaces active playing by a large margin.

[ParagonAX]

Logic doesn't work against these trolls. They stick by their fervent belief that we are harbouring a secret agenda, and that they are absolutely brilliant for seeing through our guises. They absolutely ignore all irrefutable evidence, stats, maths, and the issue at hand.

[Domatron]

I am not making an argument against any change.

 

I always assumed that was obvious.

 

My issue is with people -- such as the OP -- who explore a system as much as possible and after they're burned up, they claim the system is not working as intended.

 

This of course only happens AFTER they explored the system extensively to their advantage.

 

Your issue is based entirely on assumptions, poor ones at that. Of course the people who push the game for the top find the bugs. The jerk move would've been to never give up the secret and keep rolling to victory.

 

It's being brought up now because this is the first demonstration of how absurd it can become, before this it would've just been theory and I'm sure you would've found some other high horse to shout it down from.

 

As the person from wook said the top contributors could've won planets solo, that is broken.

[magicallypuzzled]

Now you show your true ignorance on the topic at hand. You absolutely can win by only crafting as no other activity can match it in time efficiency (you can get points while offline ffs)

 

Maybe re-read the OP and see the math, then multiply the crafting by however many crafter alts on account has that don't even have to be online.

 

Crafting outpaces active playing by a large margin.

 

actually someone who crafts as much as possible will always lose to someone who crafts as much as possible and also does pvp on the side for instance. so yeah no one is going to win by just doing crafting like he said.

Edited September 30, 2014 by magicallypuzzled

[magicallypuzzled]

Your issue is based entirely on assumptions, poor ones at that. Of course the people who push the game for the top find the bugs. The jerk move would've been to never give up the secret and keep rolling to victory.

 

It's being brought up now because this is the first demonstration of how absurd it can become, before this it would've just been theory and I'm sure you would've found some other high horse to shout it down from.

 

As the person from wook said the top contributors could've won planets solo, that is broken.

no it isn't because that shows that small guilds can indeed get into the top ten all it takes is will. frankly you get nothing important by winning so i really don't care if it isn't possible to win currently. as long as everyone no matter what size guild they have can potentially get in the top ten with the proper planning, dedication, and effort than that is really balanced.

Edited September 30, 2014 by magicallypuzzled

[ParagonAX]

First off, on behalf of Wook, congratulations to Triumph on their Taris victory. Well played.

 

(Apologies for the lengthy post, I had a lot to say.)

 

My feeling is that Wook agrees with Triumph on this issue. Crafting to win is overpowered, and we would like to see it changed.

 

I am the self appointed theory crafter for Wook, and amateur game theorist. I hold a large amount of responsibility for the Taris war, as I determined that whoever won Taris would almost certainly be first to get the "Galactic Conqueror" title, and wouldn't take no for answer on invading Taris. So a pre-congratulations to Triumph for being guild server first Galactic Conqueror (I expect individuals with character in multiple guilds to get it earlier, but I digress).

 

Since people like visuals, here's a pie chart of the breakdown of Wooks points earned per player.

 

Even without labels, you can visually see that our top 2 players generated 1/4 of our points. It's public knowledge that we made about 37 million points, so 37/4 = 9.25 million, or about 4.6 million each (for the record, I was #2).

 

On a lot of planets on most servers, we could have each secured a planet SOLO. I suspect Triumphs top members could have done the same.

 

I used 7 crafters to do it. I had 1 non-crafter in addition. My non-crafter made 52000 points, my worst crafter 426000, my best crafter 798000. While I certainly did not max out my non-crafter, I didn't max out my crafters either.

 

Our top 6 players generated over 1/2 of our points. Our top 12 made up 3/4. Or 19 mil and 28 mil respectively.

 

This is in no way me suggesting that crafting gives small guilds a chance to compete against large guilds. While we didn't see it happen here, it is entirely possible for a large guild to do the same thing on a larger scale, generating hundreds of millions of points, assuming credits and mats allow. The small guild vs large guild problem is a separate issue, was not the purpose to the OP, and is off-topic.

 

Some further metrics to give perspective to those numbers.

 

We had nearly max characters in guild for the week (ie game imposed max of 500). 301 characters contributed at least 1 point. 63 players contributed points. 198 characters met their 35k conquest objective.

 

Those are the real world numbers. They are all pretty close to in line with a standard population (statistics).

 

On the theory side of things, I calculate that crafting is 4 times superior to the next best point gathering method in the WORST case scenario (no bonus to crafting, 3x bonus to Ops/FPs). It is as much as 8 times superior in the best case.

 

In game theory, this is known as a "saddle point", which means that it is superior to all other strategies, and therefore the only strategy that should be employed. In other words, it is the ONLY strategy.

 

My Nightmare

 

I fear I have created a monster. Triumph most definitely learned from their experience battling Wook. They will be even more efficient in future. Expect them to be able to post 50 or 60 mil weeks if needed. More in crafting weeks.

 

While I don't believe they intend to do the following, it is certainly possible for them. They can now grief the conquest system. They can choose guilds they wish to block from conquering a planet, and invade there. They can probably even wait a day until everyone decides their planets. I don't believe there are any guilds that can stop them.

 

A single entity wielding that kind of power is game breaking. That's bad.

 

It sounds as though they even have the resources to do it on multiple servers simultaneously.

 

EDIT: My point isn't that Triumph is doing anything wrong, they are playing the game the way it's built. My point is the system is broken.

By creating this thread, Paragon has shown responsible use of Triumphs power. Please continue this trend.

 

Thanks mate, you guys put up a hell of a fight. It was competition at its best!

 

Thanks for showing with raw data how absurd crafting truly is.

 

As you stated, we absolutely could do it over and over again. On multiple planets, or even servers. We have no desire to do that.

 

We want to win by playing the content. Before we went against Wook, we PvP'ed during PvP weeks, did Operations in Ops weeks, did flashpoints in FP weeks. And that is exactly how we won every planet we've been through.

 

We had to craft this week because we were forced to by you guys. I am not blaming Wook in the slightest. You guys wanted to win as much as we did, and crafting is by far the most ridiculous way to gain conquest points. We all understand that (can't say the same for the trolls in this thread).

 

My only goal is to get the system to reward behavior it was designed to do - different activities in different themed weeks. Crafting should be the best method for points in crafting weeks, but no other.

 

If BW posts and says everything is working as intended, then I will respectfully withdraw my case. Until then, I will press on.