AOE Force Choke - possible new talent in 3.0?

[PavSalco]

Mass Force Choke (a talent in the tank tree):

Force Stasis/Force Choke now deals its damage to an additional 4 enemies around the initial target. If the target is strong, standard or weak, it is also stunned for the duration. Shares a cooldown with Threatening Scream.

- TACeMossie's concept.

 

Makes it so you don't need a new ability, the extra CC works for most PvE Operations encounters where you would need the extra threat/control, it doesn't have to be channeled because Stasis Mastery/Jugg version that the name escapes me, and its restricted to tanks.

 

Although it's still not officially confirmed we know that the level cap is going to be raised and along with it we are going to see new skills. That's unavoidable. I've been having an idea about a certain skill for Juggernaut since the moment I finished the False Emperor - channeled AOE Force Choke or mass stun Force Choke (similar to Intimidating Roar but channeled).

 

So far I considered it as daydreaming, but at this moment I think that Bioware could actually consider it. In the last stream I asked Tait to pass that idea on and he said he would. I know that doesn't mean anything. He might have forgot about it or just said he would pass the suggestion but never intended to do so, but it would be nice to see this skill making its way into 3.0

 

1:45:40

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/b/572368437

 

What's your thoughts about it and what new skills you would like to see personally?

Edited November 17, 2014 by PavSalco

[veSev]

Interesting concept, but i wonder if they would incorporate 2 aoe stuns. Not to mention this would be a damage dealing aoe stun. That, to me, seems a bit bold unless they added similar abilities to other classes to combat it. In pvp i see this being a bit op especially.

[PavSalco]

Yeah, the only problem is pvp. The whole skill could merely be restricted to PVE or in PVP it could deal damage but its stun feature would be turned off. There is many possibilites to balance it Edited September 29, 2014 by PavSalco

[PavSalco]

Here are a few examples how this skill could work that I came up with:

 

Group Force Choke (nonPVP)

Channeled: 3 secs

Cooldown: 1min

Chokes the target and up to 4 weak and standard enemies within 5 meters, stunning it while GFC is channeled. Deals X damage every second. Cannot be activated inside of PVP areas.

 

Group Force Choke (PVP friendly - 1 player target)

Channeled: 3 secs

Cooldown: 1min

Chokes the target and up to 4 weak and standard enemies within 5 meters, stunning it while GFC is channeled. Deals X damage every second.

 

Group Force Choke (no damage to other targets)

Channeled: 3 secs

Cooldown: 1min

Chokes the target, stunning it while GFC is channeled. Deals X damage every second to that target. Also chokes and stun weak and standard enemies within 5 meters.

 

Group Force Choke (more like interrupt)

Channeled: 3 secs

Cooldown: 1min

Choke all enemies within 5 meters stunning them while GFC is channeled. Damage ends the effect prematurely.

 

I haven't figured out a proper name yet

Edited September 29, 2014 by PavSalco

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I think it should be like this

 

Empowered Choke

 

Cooldown 1.5 Minutes (Can be Talented in Tank tree to reduce CD to 1 Minute)

 

Channeled: 3 Seconds

 

Chokes 1 Target for X Damage over 3 Seconds giving 1 Rage per Damage Tick, Also Chokes up to 4 additional targets stunning them and dealing 50% the damage of the original target. Additional Targets do not grant Rage per tick.

 

This would be balanced for both PvP and PvE. I'm thinking it should deal a total of say, 4k to original target and 2k to other targets (DPS gear) and 3.5k to normal target and 1.7k to secondary targets (Tank Gear, tanks could get a talent to increase damage to Secondary targets and reduce CD down to 1 minute?)

[Jayshames]

No thanks.

 

A whole expansion to introduce a duplicate skill that is AoE rather than single target...

We need something completely different.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

No thanks.

 

A whole expansion to introduce a duplicate skill that is AoE rather than single target...

We need something completely different.

 

Wow, your rather rude... an AOE Force Choke is not only A. ****** and B. Useful. It could be helpful for Jugg Tanks to control groups of adds easier with the added AOE Threat. and lord only knows we could use extra AOE Threat on Jugg Tanks!

[Jayshames]

Wow, your rather rude... an AOE Force Choke is not only A. ****** and B. Useful. It could be helpful for Jugg Tanks to control groups of adds easier with the added AOE Threat. and lord only knows we could use extra AOE Threat on Jugg Tanks!

 

I'm not being rude at all..

 

We already have Force Choke...

If there's going to be new abilities added with expansion, let's just say 1 ability like last time. Then why would you want an ability that we already have, except this time it's an AoE?

 

This doesn't happen very often, I'd rather not have it wasted on something so lazy.

 

That would be like giving Marauder a new ability where you throw your 2 lightsabers in front of you. This time naming it something different, making it single target and increase the damage.

[PavSalco]

No thanks.

 

A whole expansion to introduce a duplicate skill that is AoE rather than single target...

We need something completely different.

 

No one said they would add just one skill to each tree with the introduction of 60 lvl

 

If there's going to be new abilities added with expansion, let's just say 1 ability like last time. Then why would you want an ability that we already have, except this time it's an AoE?

It's different. Of course it's based on the same concept, but the outcome is quite distinct.

 

This doesn't happen very often, I'd rather not have it wasted on something so lazy.

Yeah, hence another lightsaber attack but from a different angle would be so much unique and diverse from others.

 

You say it like some other parts of this game are not actually reskinned, recolored and reused elements

 

Whatever they come up with, it is going to be based on 5 main skills that Jugg has - melee, push, scream, choke, shield. Why? Because they don't want to give us lightning as it's inquisitor's iconic attack and they don't plan to forego that class distinction.

 

That would be like giving Marauder a new ability where you throw your 2 lightsabers in front of you. This time naming it something different, making it single target and increase the damage.

That does not mimic our AOE force choke. This one is more congruent:

" You throw your 1 lightsaber at the target, then jump to it while catching that lightsaber in midair and pierce the target with both lightsabers dealing X damage". It's the reused concept of Saber Throw and Force Charge, but the outcome is quite distinct and impressive,don't you think? That's the point.

 

 

Empowered Choke

 

Cooldown 1.5 Minutes (Can be Talented in Tank tree to reduce CD to 1 Minute)

 

Maybe it could only be available in the tank tree, then as you said, it would serve the role of additional group/threat control.

 

Chokes 1 Target for X Damage over 3 Seconds giving 1 Rage per Damage Tick, Also Chokes up to 4 additional targets stunning them and dealing 50% the damage of the original target. Additional Targets do not grant Rage per tick.

 

I think this one is overpowered. I would give up the damage to other targets or even remove it completely. I would also limit stunning to weak/standard enemies in order to prevent stunfest in pvp.

 

1. Chokes 1 target for X damage over 3 seconds giving 1 Rage per damage tick, Also chokes up to 4 additional weak and standard targets stunning them while Empowered Choke is channeled. Additional targets do not grant Rage per tick and do not take damage.

 

2. Chokes 1 target over 3 seconds giving 1 Rage per second, Also chokes up to 4 additional weak and standard targets and stunning them while Empowered Choke is channeled. Additional targets do not grant Rage per second.

Edited September 29, 2014 by PavSalco

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Maybe it could only be available in the tank tree, then as you said, it would serve the role of additional group/threat control.

 

Hmm, not a terrible idea, since the Tank tree already has the Force Choke talent that makes it un-channeled.

 

I think this one is overpowered. I would give up the damage to other targets or even remove it completely. I would also limit stunning to weak/standard enemies in order to prevent stunfest in pvp.

 

Nah, with the 1.5m CD i think this would be fine, we already have 2 classes with AOE CC, Jugg being one of them. and since Jugg Tanks already are the CC king, i dont see the problem with this.To further elaborate, on the skill, if you happen to wander into the say 6 Meter radius of the person, you wouldnt get stunned or take damage, it's only targets around the person when the ability is pressed.

 

1. Chokes 1 target for X damage over 3 seconds giving 1 Rage per damage tick, Also chokes up to 4 additional weak and standard targets stunning them while Empowered Choke is channeled. Additional targets do not grant Rage per tick and do not take damage.

 

Not terrible, but i still think that secondary targets in PvP (players) should at minimum take damage but not get stunned? maybe 55% of the main Target's damage?

 

2. Chokes 1 target over 3 seconds giving 1 Rage per second, Also chokes up to 4 additional weak and standard targets and stunning them while Empowered Choke is channeled. Additional targets do not grant Rage per second.

 

So, remove the damage part but keep the Rage generation? not a terrible idea... but still for PvP this just acts like a 2nd Force Choke in PvP which is what i wanted to avoid.

 

 

If you remove the Stun to secondary Targets for PvP, this removes the uniqueness for the skill. you could remove the damage, but when your choking someone, they obviously would get hurt... you could remove the Rage generation, which isnt terrible. but Jugg Tanks can encounter some Rage problems in PvP when they arent getting hit enough, which is a completely different topic of "Taunts should FORCE the person to target the tank, Player or NPC" Which that would make tanks broken as all **** in PvP...

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kaos_KidSWTOR

[Anyakaschala]

IMO, there is no reason for it to be added. It's too OP for soloing and for pvp. Esp when classes don't have any aoe stuns to begin with, and you put juggs with 2. It's already imbalanced enough in pvp and to add another is just really really bad form.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

IMO, there is no reason for it to be added. It's too OP for soloing and for pvp. Esp when classes don't have any aoe stuns to begin with, and you put juggs with 2. It's already imbalanced enough in pvp and to add another is just really really bad form.

 

Actually, there are 3 Classes with AOE Stuns. Operatives, Juggs, and Powertechs. Powertechs are the only ones of the bunch who actually have a Hard AOE CC. So it's not un-balanced. in fact CC isnt un-balanced in PvP. people just complain about too much of it when they dont know how to play...

[GrandLordMenace]

Ehhh. Honestly, I'd rather we see a more powerful 30m ranged ability for Juggs and Guardians in 3.0 (Not a huge damage dealer, but something on a low CD that does moderate damage that could be used as a filler) or a DoT of some sort that did semi substantial damage that was available to all 3 specs (Kinda like Cauterize or Affliction, etc.) Edited September 30, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[veSev]

Ehhh. Honestly, I'd rather we see a more powerful 30m ranged ability for Juggs and Guardians in 3.0 (Not a huge damage dealer, but something on a low CD that does moderate damage that could be used as a filler) or a DoT of some sort that did semi substantial damage that was available to all 3 specs (Kinda like Cauterize or Affliction, etc.)

 

I'm with you man. While this is intereting, forcechoke after 2.0 has only been used by tanks for rage generation. Instead of creating an all new skill around this, they could simply adjust it through the skill tree. I'd be more inclind for a redesign of saber throw over force choke which i discussed in another thread.

[GrandLordMenace]

Guardians as a whole are missing a few things that pretty much every other class has.

 

A: A spec neutral DoT effect

 

B: An offensive CD (Every class has an offensive CD and a Resource CD, and the ones that don't have a resource CD have extra offensive CDs to compensate)

 

C: Mobility (especially for a melee class). We're the least mobile melee spec in the game, and one of the lowest parsing (Lethality/DF Scound Slinger are in a similar spot as far as low DPS, but they have scrapper). To make things worse, we don't have a competent alt spec.

 

D: (Big one), Vig has no real "designation." We're a melee caster that is SUPPOSED to be a sustained spec but ends up a meh uncontrolled burst spec. As a DoT spec, our DoT's hit like someone throwing a sponge at someone, and our burst is almost completely reliant on crits, and our crit talents are limited. While crits are yes, a big part of the RNG of multiple specs, ALL burst specs have talents that make crits extremely reliable, whether it be across the board crit talents, or an autocrit that does most of the damage in the spec, sometimes both! DoT specs are often designed to have an uber high crit chance on their DoTs, and these DoTs do a very substantial amount of damage.

 

Vig has neither of these. Our crit talents, Dispatch and Force Attacks, as well as Blade Storm, are effective, yes, but they aren't enough. We have no real sustainable execute, and our Dispatch is not used nearly enough to actually have the crit boost matter, Blade Storm hits fairly decently, but is not a "bursty attack" by any means, more like a stablizer of parses. Our DoTs, bar Plasma Brand hit like sponges, and Plasma Brand itself hurts slightly.

 

So how do we fix this?

 

The solutions have been tossed around in this thread. Read.

[TACeMossie]

I got the solution:

 

Rather than a new ability or something, we make it a talent. E.g. this one

 

Stasis Field/Mass Force Choke (near the top of the tank tree)

 

Force Stasis/Force Choke now deals its damage to an additional 4 enemies around the initial target. If the target is strong, standard or weak, it is also stunned for the duration.

 

Makes it so you don't need a new ability, the extra CC works for most PvE Operations encounters where you would need the extra threat/control, it doesn't have to be channeled because Stasis Mastery/Jugg version that the name escapes me, and its restricted to tanks.

Edited September 30, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Marb]

I got the solution:

 

Rather than a new ability or something, we make it a talent. E.g. this one

 

Stasis Field/Mass Force Choke (near the top of the tank tree)

 

Force Stasis/Force Choke now deals its damage to an additional 4 enemies around the initial target. If the target is strong, standard or weak, it is also stunned for the duration.

 

Makes it so you don't need a new ability, the extra CC works for most PvE Operations encounters where you would need the extra threat/control, it doesn't have to be channeled because Stasis Mastery/Jugg version that the name escapes me, and its restricted to tanks.

 

I like this idea.

 

In general I prefer new passives which alter current abilities like this one. We already have plenty of buttons to press.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Marb

[PavSalco]

I got the solution:

 

Rather than a new ability or something, we make it a talent. E.g. this one

 

Stasis Field/Mass Force Choke (near the top of the tank tree)

 

Force Stasis/Force Choke now deals its damage to an additional 4 enemies around the initial target. If the target is strong, standard or weak, it is also stunned for the duration.

 

A new talent that expands on Force Choke in the tank tree rather than a complete new skill? It's so simple that I feel embarrassed that it didn't cross my mind. Your sir win a cookie. I added your suggestion to the main post as it's clearly well balanced and thought-out.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I got the solution:

 

Rather than a new ability or something, we make it a talent. E.g. this one

 

Stasis Field/Mass Force Choke (near the top of the tank tree)

 

Force Stasis/Force Choke now deals its damage to an additional 4 enemies around the initial target. If the target is strong, standard or weak, it is also stunned for the duration.

 

Makes it so you don't need a new ability, the extra CC works for most PvE Operations encounters where you would need the extra threat/control, it doesn't have to be channeled because Stasis Mastery/Jugg version that the name escapes me, and its restricted to tanks.

 

Got to hand it too you, that's brilliant... tack on the Force Choke CD reducing talent (yea, you will lose a few other things...) and you have a 45s nice damaging AOE with decent Threat.

[GrandLordMenace]

I got the solution:

 

Rather than a new ability or something, we make it a talent. E.g. this one

 

Stasis Field/Mass Force Choke (near the top of the tank tree)

 

Force Stasis/Force Choke now deals its damage to an additional 4 enemies around the initial target. If the target is strong, standard or weak, it is also stunned for the duration.

 

Makes it so you don't need a new ability, the extra CC works for most PvE Operations encounters where you would need the extra threat/control, it doesn't have to be channeled because Stasis Mastery/Jugg version that the name escapes me, and its restricted to tanks.

 

One problem: PVP.

 

With this talent, while the stun isn't going to apply to player targets, the damage will. In Tank gear, it's balanced. In DPS gear, OHOHOHOH another story. DPS tank build right now is "okay" as it does decent damage and is mostly ignored. With this new talent, our already semi decent AOE (Guardian Slash hits fairly hard in DPS gear) plus this new talent I'm afraid that this hybrid could be doing too high DPS for a tank build...

 

Then again Choke doesn't hit too hard to begin with and multiplying it by 5 may not be as substantial as I think it will be.

 

My two cents.

[Anysao]

500% support. If it's in the skill tree, I'd prefer it in the Rage/Focus tree. That way both Advanced Classes can use this awesome ability. Plus, that tree is already heavy AoE and DOT, so it fits well.

 

Just wait for it. Next update the Cartel Market will sell Darth Malgus' armor, so Juggernauts can dress the part for their Mass Force Choke.

[GrandLordMenace]

500% support. If it's in the skill tree, I'd prefer it in the Rage/Focus tree. That way both Advanced Classes can use this awesome ability. Plus, that tree is already heavy AoE and DOT, so it fits well.

 

Just wait for it. Next update the Cartel Market will sell Darth Malgus' armor, so Juggernauts can dress the part for their Mass Force Choke.

 

No. Sentinel Focus doesn't need more AOE. It's so much better than Guardian Focus already. Just no.

[veSev]

Reading through the posts, i feel like the jusification for its adition is pur3ly for how "cool" it would look/be. While i am not against its addition to the tank tree, i feel like if you want an ability that is all appearenced based why not adjust the heroic force choke since the majority of legacy abilities are AOE based. Believe its force choke, project, and dirty kick are the only single target ones. This allows players to have this ability on all their toons while not affecting pvp or pve unless you count soloing flashpoints lol.

[Luckygunslinger]

For the sake of having a "cool" AOE stun, simply turn Intimidating Roar into "Mass Force Choke." Keep in mind Malgus' AOE choke didn't do damage and it would be cooler than people sh*tting themselves for 6 seconds until they take damage. If we're going to blow a 3.0 new ability on AOE Stun for the class or just for tanks who in turn in PVE during a boss would find it useless unless it provides a greater benefit than Choke does now (which it does for Rage and Periodic damage) then there isn't a real need. I mean, if you want a Jugg version of Carbonize, I guess but we already do have decent shut down as it is. Edited October 4, 2014 by Luckygunslinger

[Luckygunslinger]

No. Sentinel Focus doesn't need more AOE. It's so much better than Guardian Focus already. Just no.

 

Agreed, they need to fix the epic flaws of Guardian Focus first before touching that tree and giving it anything new. The tree is literally broken and isn't built ideally to flow as well as Sentinel does. I estimate in Full Min-Maxed DM with great crits and a player who knows what they're doing, Sentinel Focus could push over 3900 in single target as an AOE spec. Guardian at the moment is pushing about 3525 to about 3570. (Just going off of my parse and Vezev's).

Edited October 4, 2014 by Luckygunslinger