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Dialogues - why they're great and how to make them even better

Lady_Ora

By Lady_Ora
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Lady_Ora

Lady_Ora

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First of all, let me say - and I believe that there are many other hardcore SW fans or just fans of a good game who agree with me - that The Old Republic is wonderfully superior to most other MMOs out there by being so strongly story-driven. Or, rather, by the story being so interactive. Unlike the vast quantity of games in which our characters just listen to what the NPCs have to say and then go off and do the quest, returning to listen to the congratulatory talk just as passively - TOR lets us take part in the story as actively as if it were a good old single-player RPG. We can not only solve a quest in different ways, but we can also make our PCs actual characters, roleplay them as light or dark, merciful or cruel, greedy or idealistic, fun-loving or serious... etc, etc. This is the part you all know, so I'll just stop here.

 

Yes, I love the dialogues - but I have some ideas that, I think, would make them even better. (The fact that I'm coming out of lurking and making my first forum post here should be a dead giveaway.) I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks, too - and especially if you agree with me, do it loudly, so our dear Bioware developers would take heed and implement the things we crave for in the upcoming patches. If we got something as big and completely new to the game as Strongholds just by pointing out how fun such things were in other games, we must be able to get a few dialogue tweaks that would make TOR even better than the other games. ;)

 

Warning: the post will be long, so I've numbered the issues in case you don't want to read all of it.

 

Warning #2: I've only played Imperial characters so far, thus a) they are the only source of my experience, so I'm sorry if I don't know of something relevant on the Republic side, and b) please don't post any spoilers regarding the Republic storyline. :) Thanks in advance!

 

 

1. Replace the confusing dialogue options with clearer ones.

I fully understand the perks of the "short phrase" dialogue system - it lets players skim the main point of every option quickly. Reading several long lines of text before picking what to say would be time-consuming, and that's especially inconvenient in a multiplayer dialogue - just imagine several annoyed players waiting for someone who doesn't know English very well to read all the possible answers before selecting one. So I'm all for keeping it short and simple - but only as long as the main tone of the full reply can easily be understood from the short version.

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've had a bunch of cases where I picked something that sounded like a friendly joke in the short version, but turned out to be a very barbed and unpleasant remark in the long one (thus, say, losing affection with a companion where I thought I could gain some) or where the answer sounded like professional interest but turned out to be serious empathy towards the character in question, and so on. It's VERY nice to be pleasantly surprised by an original, funny or dramatic way in which our character expresses the idea we wanted him to say - but it's a bad surprise when what we think we're about to say doesn't correspond to the actual result. (Note: far it be that all, or even most dialogue options are vague in this way - quite to the contrary, most are perfectly clear, but the number of the confusing ones is still too big to be overlooked.)

 

2. Give us more dialogue options!

Don't know about the rest of you, but to me the dialogue wheel looks like it's meant to hold up to six options (three on the unused left side and three on the right), while we always get just two or three. The lines are short, more options won't be a problem - and there simply are situations where it would be easy to add more things for the characters to say - even where some logical options simply aren't there. I'm not saying there can't be a situation where two or three options are perfectly fine - but I've played a number of dialogues where five or six wouldn't be too much. Which leads me to the next one...

 

3. Enable different motivations (and alignment gain!) for the same results.

People frequently do the same things for different reasons. Whether the consequences turn out to be good or bad in the end is one thing - but WHY you chose to do something is completely another. The "why" is what qualifies our actions as light or dark, after all.

 

Now, what we already have is having two reasons for doing the same light or dark thing, and one reason for the option of the other alignment. For example, we can chose to 1) spare an NPC because we're merciful (light), 2) kill the NPC because we're cruel and like killing (dark) or 3) kill the NPC because we think it's dangerous to leave him alive (dark again). The two options for the same alignment might have different points gain (it could be +50 dark points to kill someone out of necessity and +100 to do so out of bloodlust), or they could give the same points, just a different explanation. I like that - it's great. But imagine a more interesting thing - having both light and dark reasons to perform the SAME action.

 

Your first reaction might be "how?", but it's not all that hard. Sparing someone's life out of mercy is surely a light-side action; however, sparing them because you might need them alive is neutral at best, and sparing them because you want to see them suffer while mourning their loved ones (whom, say, you've killed previously) is certainly dark. Having these three AND another dark option to kill the NPC would be interesting. And that's an easy situation - much more complex and interesting ones are possible. I'm about to give an example from the latest Rakata Prime flashpoint - so if you don't want a moderate spoiler from it, skip to #4.

 

 

At one point in the flashpoint, you are offered a choice between activating a mechanism that will kill a whole bunch of Infinite Army soldiers that you'd otherwise have to fight, but would also destroy all the data regarding their technology (Theron Shan's idea) - and going out to fight them, thus sparing the technology and enabling the Empire to salvage it (Lana Beniko's alternative).

 

Of course, the first option is dark side, the other is light. At first, that seems logical: in the first case you kill a lot of people remotely, without giving them a fair fighting chance, AND destroy some sort of knowledge - my, that's sooo dark side! In the other option you have a fair fight with them and preserve the knowledge - ah, so nice and light.

 

But let's look at it from another angle. Those soldiers are dead however you put it: they're up against Dark Council members, Emperor's Wraths, super-Great Hunt winning-bounty hunters and top-secret Imperial agents... yeah, fair fighting chance, sure. A slightly slower death, more likely. On the other hand, the knowledge in question isn't some nice philosophical lore - it's a super technology that will enable the Empire to make a huge, powerful... potentially brutal and genocidal army. Oh, and it just might fall into the hands of some new traitor, since we've had quite a bunch of those lately. Light-sided? Really? Hmmm...

 

No, these arguments aren't perfect: and that's exactly why I'm not saying that the light and dark rewards for these choices should be reversed, but that there should be four instead of two options - two for each outcome, but for different reasons. Yes, you could say "I'll destroy them all and the info, too, because I loooove destruction" - and that would be dark - but you might have a light-side option that says "those soldiers are dead anyway, so let's give them a quick death - and that technology is too dangerous and should be destroyed". And vice versa - while keeping the light side option "Yes, I'll give them a fair fight and take the useful knowledge for my beloved Empire", there should be a dark version where you say "Oh, I just love watching them helplessly dying... and to think of the devastation we could cause with an Infinite Army of our own... my dear Lana, you're a genius." Stuff like that. :)

 

 

4. Let us ask more questions.

We frequently have several questions that we could ask an NPC - ranging from curiosity about our companions' lives and preferences to serious, strategically important questions about a mission we're about to undertake. However, instead of being able to ask ALL of those questions, we're only allowed to pick one, and then the conversation inevitably moves on to another subject or ends. While sometimes that makes sense in-game (e.g. the dialogue is taking place during active danger), frequently it makes none whatsoever, because the characters are, say, resting in a cantina - or maybe having a briefing for a VERY important mission for which they should have as much intel as possible. And in such cases it would make perfect sense to ask all (or at least most) of the possible questions.

 

I know what you'll say - that would slow down multiplayer terribly. Imagine a situation where one player doesn't care about the details (or has simply played the mission before and heard them all), while the other wants to ask a dozen questions - and he keeps winning and getting his way! The first player would be quite annoyed, yes - but there is a very easy way around it. Just make it that the option that says "I have no more questions" or something like that overrules the others regardless of the roll. Thus, if there is a player in a hurry, no dawdling will be permitted - but if everybody's curious, or they want to get social points for more talking, or it's one player playing solo - they'll be able to ask everything they want.

 

5. Make flirting more realistic.

This will be a big one, but I hope it's interesting. I love the flirt options - what I find unrealistic (and thus decreasing my enjoyment) is that they work too often. No, I'm not saying my character is having too many people around for romance and sex - in fact, I'd be quite all right with there being a flirt option for practically every NPC. Your character could be a little ***** pervert, after all - or just a hopeless romantic who keeps falling in love. :) However, my point is that there are very few flirt options that get refused by those they're addressed to. In 80-90% of situations, clicking "flirt" will enable you to have a romance/kiss/sex/whatever (depending on the circumstances) with the object of your desire, completely regardless of who and what you are. An ugly, old, grumpy and uncharismatic character has the same chance of seducing someone as the character who is beautiful, young, gentle and kind.

 

I think the flirting would be way more interesting if the NPCs actually had preferences of their own - and your success would depend on them. I know that assessing whether a certain character's face is attractive or not would be virtually impossible with today's AI (plus, you know, it should be subjective), and that linking it to the Presence attribute would just mean that higher level characters get laid more, so I'm not suggesting those options. I think, however, that there are some factors that would be easy to implement on a simple yes/no (0/1) basis. And those would be:

 

Gender.

No, relax, I'm not against the freshly introduced same-sex flirting options - in fact, I find them quite interesting - but it is a known and normal fact that the vast majority of people are heterosexual. Some characters should be interested in romancing someone of their own sex - but some should not. And some should be interested only in their own sex. Right now we have the slightly unrealistic situation that all pre-expansion NPCs are purely heterosexual, while all the new ones are bisexual - and that simply spoils the immersion.

 

Race.

Come on, half of the game keeps showing us how a lot of Sith (and Imperials in general) have racist attitudes - and then if you can flirt with them, your race doesn't matter? I can easily imagine a Sith pureblood who finds it nice to hook up with another pureblood and acceptable for it to be a human, but who totally wouldn't have anything to do with a "filthy alien". Or an alien who wouldn't date a Sith because of their usual attitude towards him. Or, on the other hand, it doesn't have to have a racist dimension - just a point of habit and preferences. A character might be uneasy about dating someone outside their own race - or find a particular race unattractive because of a certain physical feature, without thinking them in any way inferior.

 

Other obvious physical features.

You know, someone might have a thing for redheads. Or find tattoos hot. Or, on the other hand, find a beard on a man highly unattractive, dislike big and brawny girls, and so on. Just put a certain type of elements in the character build as yes/no conditions for the NPCs interest. Of course, make that something that's obvious (hair/eye colour, body type, the presence of tattoos/piercings, etc.), not "he likes noses 1, 2, and 3, but not noses 4, 5 and 6".

 

Light or dark side.

That should be a no-brainer - while most people probably wouldn't care about (or simply wouldn't perceive) your character's alignment, it's quite imaginable that a dark-side person wouldn't want a "weak and squeamish" light-side guy, or, on the other hand, that someone nice and good would be abhorred and scared by a dark-side person. (Since this is a SW game, let's not get into the territory of someone wanting to sleep with you because you're scary - there are many options without involving sexual violence.)

 

Your actions in previous interactions.

This could also be light or dark side based - after all, the characters might know nothing of your personal history and reputation, but simply judge you by what you've done in front of them. Or, it could have nothing to do with the light and dark options, but just with whether you were friendly to them / whether your actions suited their interests.

 

Class.

Again, it shouldn't be a factor in most cases - but I can easily imagine a force-user only being attracted to another force-user (remember the romantic meditation scenes from KotOR 2?) - or, quite to the contrary, finding that too complicated and only wanting an ordinary person for their lover. Or, say, an Imperial Agent who might find it OK to hook up with another agent, but would deem it unsafe to get intimate with anyone else. Or just someone being scared of a Sith Lord because it's a Sith Lord, even if he's all nice, light-side, romantic and fluffy. ;)

 

I'm sure more criteria could be though of, but you get the point - let us have different factors (not all of these for every NPC, of course, just one or two tops per character) that affect whether or not we can seduce someone, instead of knowing that there are NPCs that simply don't respond to flirting at all and those who'll be ours if we just keep clicking "flirt". After all, this would let the game hook us on more - we know that lots of people like flirting options (I do remember someone in the forums running off to make a female Smuggler at the very hint that there might be a same-sex flirt involved in that storyline), and getting refused by and interesting NPC because, say, she simply finds those Zabrak horns unattractive would motivate us to return to her with a character of another race. And so on.

 

 

Well, that would be it for now - all comments, critique, improvements, jokes, complaints, additions etc. are welcome. :)

Edited by Lady_Ora
Broken down into smaller paragraphs on Darth Wicked's suggestion
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Lady_Ora

Lady_Ora

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Formatting the text properly to make it more appealing to read could use a lot of work, especially the SPOILER area.

 

OK... any concrete suggestions, except breaking it down to even smaller passages? (Which I've just done.)

Edited by Lady_Ora
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Darth_Wicked

Darth_Wicked

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OK... any concrete suggestions, except breaking it down to even smaller passages? (Which I'm about to do.)

 

Cut down the smilies mid-phrase and use something such as quotes to differentiate or separate your suggestions. More paragraphs as well, especially in that wall of text inside the SPOILER area.

 

EDIT:

 

Also avoid words that the forums automatically censors. Some may be easily discernible, others may not.

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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Lady_Ora

Lady_Ora

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Cut down the smilies mid-phrase and use something such as quotes to differentiate or separate your suggestions. More paragraphs as well, especially in that wall of text inside the SPOILER area.

 

The latter I've just done, and I'll remove the smilies - but why would I use quotes? I've bolded the "title" of every suggestion (hmmm, maybe I'll put the titles above instead of at the start of the suggestions), but using quotes in the first post of a thread seems weird to me.

 

Btw, never mind the others, will these edits get you to read it? ;)

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Darth-Obvious

Darth-Obvious

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I thumbed it.

 

But basically they can't really do any of that stuff with the existing content. Some things they could do with content going forward.

 

Dragon Age Inquisition does address or makes attempts to address some of stuff you have issues with or want to see improved upon.

 

In terms of conversations and dialogue systems, Bioware's games move in phases generally. For instance KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age Origins all basically work the same in terms of dialogue. Then you move on to the next era of Mass Effect, Dragon Age 2, and SWTOR which all share the same basic system. Dragon Age Inquisition will supposedly be a prototype version of what to expect from them with the next Mass Effect and the new IP they're working on.

 

^Note I should point out that Dragon Age Origins started production before Mass Effect did which is why it didn't use a dialogue wheel, have a voiced main character, etc.

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Reno_Tarshil

Reno_Tarshil

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I thumbed it.

 

But basically they can't really do any of that stuff with the existing content. Some things they could do with content going forward.

 

Dragon Age Inquisition does address or makes attempts to address some of stuff you have issues with or want to see improved upon.

 

In terms of conversations and dialogue systems, Bioware's games move in phases generally. For instance KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age Origins all basically work the same in terms of dialogue. Then you move on to the next era of Mass Effect, Dragon Age 2, and SWTOR which all share the same basic system. Dragon Age Inquisition will supposedly be a prototype version of what to expect from them with the next Mass Effect and the new IP they're working on.

 

^Note I should point out that Dragon Age Origins started production before Mass Effect did which is why it didn't use a dialogue wheel, have a voiced main character, etc.

 

Because of the Dialogue Wheel they added it is hard to go back and play Origins and not miss having a voiced character.

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Lady_Ora

Lady_Ora

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I thumbed it.

 

But basically they can't really do any of that stuff with the existing content. Some things they could do with content going forward.

 

Well, they can, they just probably won't bother. But, yes, I'd be happy if they'd at least add it to future content.

 

Dragon Age Inquisition does address or makes attempts to address some of stuff you have issues with or want to see improved upon.

 

Looking forward to it. :)

 

In terms of conversations and dialogue systems, Bioware's games move in phases generally. For instance KOTOR, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age Origins all basically work the same in terms of dialogue. Then you move on to the next era of Mass Effect, Dragon Age 2, and SWTOR which all share the same basic system. Dragon Age Inquisition will supposedly be a prototype version of what to expect from them with the next Mass Effect and the new IP they're working on.

 

^Note I should point out that Dragon Age Origins started production before Mass Effect did which is why it didn't use a dialogue wheel, have a voiced main character, etc.

Yes, I'm generally aware of that - though I haven't even played Dragon Age 2 yet. :confused: (I'll get around to it.) And, personally, I don't even overly like the dialogue wheel. But, that aside, the reason I'm hoping they'll do something is the fact that this is an MMO - and they change much more and more often than primarily single-player games.

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Darth_Wicked

Darth_Wicked

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The latter I've just done, and I'll remove the smilies - but why would I use quotes? I've bolded the "title" of every suggestion (hmmm, maybe I'll put the titles above instead of at the start of the suggestions), but using quotes in the first post of a thread seems weird to me.

 

Btw, never mind the others, will these edits get you to read it? ;)

 

Perhaps but even if I don't, you seem to be doing fine. ;)

Reverse psychology FTW? :D

 

Edited by Darth_Wicked
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