Ideas for fixing AP in PvE and PvP

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Tac, I actually forgot that Shoulder Cannon was on a 1.5 Min CD... I always thought it was on a 1 Min CD... I think if we were to say, exchange 30% Surge on specific abilities, give us 15% Surge on ALL abilities like the Rage tree, which i think would be a slight DPS increase but i'm not 100% sure... I also think that Explosive Dart could be something to be used for talents/talent ideas, Ive found that my Explosive Dart on average over a 2 Minute dummy parse (i know it isnt standard, but i deal 500k Damage in 2 Minutes, that and i dont have the attention span to parse for a full 5 Mins...) it crits for more than Flame Burst and can replace the 3rd Flame Burst without losing DPS, so if we got say 5% more damage on Explosive Dart, and some sort of special talent that either gives a buff or buffs Explosive Dart, that would be unique to AP, or give us a Gap Closer on Death From Above, either would be unique and would buff abilities that have NO other buffs in ANY tree (specific to that skill, not general buffs)

[OniGanon]

RB > I > RP > RS > FB > FB > FB > FT > RB > I > Rapid > RP > RS

 

Nah man... you need more Rocket Punch.

 

MOAR ROCKET PUNCH

 

MAXIMUM SHORYUKEN

 

RB > FT > FB > FB > I > RP > RS > FB > Rapid > RB > FT > RP > FB > I > Rapid > RS > FB > RP

Edited September 7, 2014 by OniGanon

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Nah man... you need more Rocket Punch.

 

MOAR ROCKET PUNCH

 

MAXIMUM SHORYUKEN

 

RB > FT > FB > FB > I > RP > RS > FB > Rapid > RB > FT > RP > FB > I > Rapid > RS > FB > RP

 

the rotation I use works, and if i have Shoulder Cannon and Explosive Fuel up, i can deal 3k DPS or more (Draxus HM adds rock for stacking PFT and letting lose with 3stack FT + EF) also it's heat efficient for me, i only get high on heat when i screw up and say, use RB at the wrong time, or really **** up and use RS before RP.

[TACeMossie]

the rotation I use works, and if i have Shoulder Cannon and Explosive Fuel up, i can deal 3k DPS or more (Draxus HM adds rock for stacking PFT and letting lose with 3stack FT + EF) also it's heat efficient for me, i only get high on heat when i screw up and say, use RB at the wrong time, or really **** up and use RS before RP.

 

wait... you're saying you need explosive fuel AND shoulder cannon to hit 3k dps in AP?

 

HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAA

 

ok im done laughing

 

"But kwerty, why are we laughing?"

 

Because I hit 3k dps with a rotation of:

 

RB -> IM -> RP -> RS -> FB -> FB -> FT -> Rapid -> Rapid

 

I repeat. Doing a crappy rotation that has 66% of the RP uptime that it should have, ignoring mortar volley, and not using offensive cooldowns, I still reach 3k dps.

 

If you go onto the leaderboards you will see my most recent post was a tactics parse of 3.6k dps. The first 30 seconds of the fight were well over 4k dps (peaking at 5.8k dps at the 12 seconds mark, right as Battle Focus/Adrenal/Shoulder Cannon ran out)

 

On Draxus I open up with said 5.8k dps peak

On Corruptor Zero I end up with a ludicrous 9k+ in the opener.

 

If your gonna brag about how good your rotation is, PLEASE use something that isn't beaten by a guy not even trying. Its like when you 'bragged' about having the possibility of hitting 2.1k in underworld set bonus gear for an engi sniper when 2.10 comes out over the 'significantly inferior' marksman spec, while at the same time I had non-bonused 156s without relics and hit 2.2k dps in marksman spec.

 

RANT OVER

Edited September 9, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

wait... you're saying you need explosive fuel AND shoulder cannon to hit 3k dps in AP?

 

HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAA

 

ok im done laughing

 

"But kwerty, why are we laughing?"

 

Because I hit 3k dps with a rotation of:

 

RB -> IM -> RP -> RS -> FB -> FB -> FT -> Rapid -> Rapid

 

I repeat. Doing a crappy rotation that has 66% of the RP uptime that it should have, ignoring mortar volley, and not using offensive cooldowns, I still reach 3k dps.

 

If you go onto the leaderboards you will see my most recent post was a tactics parse of 3.6k dps. The first 30 seconds of the fight were well over 4k dps (peaking at 5.8k dps at the 12 seconds mark, right as Battle Focus/Adrenal/Shoulder Cannon ran out)

 

On Draxus I open up with said 5.8k dps peak

On Corruptor Zero I end up with a ludicrous 9k+ in the opener.

 

If your gonna brag about how good your rotation is, PLEASE use something that isn't beaten by a guy not even trying. Its like when you 'bragged' about having the possibility of hitting 2.1k in underworld set bonus gear for an engi sniper when 2.10 comes out over the 'significantly inferior' marksman spec, while at the same time I had non-bonused 156s without relics and hit 2.2k dps in marksman spec.

 

RANT OVER

 

Tac, I KNOW you are better than i am, i was merely explaining to that person that his rotation doesnt work for me, i mean who in their right mind would use FT before hitting 3 stack PFT? (unless he is counting that you are already precharged with 3 stacks when you start the parse) also, that's on the 55 Ops dummy on the Fleet with no Bolster. I'm at 100%/110% accuracy with about 2.8k Aim (not quite fully augged yet) and somewhere around 25% - 27% Crit. I'm not even full 168 SB on my AP PT. Also i call BS that you can do 2.2k DPS in MM with 156's, my dad who has played MM sniper since the beginning of the game can hardly pull that with 168 SB gear, though that's a totally different story of him refusing to spec change to Engineering because i KNOW he's the lowest DPS in my raid team (with my Madness sin coming 2nd to a Carnage Mara of all things...) but enough about this bickering and epeen, let's get back to the subject of AP Buffs that would bring Offensive Raid Utility, and Single Target DPS.

 

buff Prototype Cylinder's HEGC from 1% to 5% which would give us 10% Internal and Elemental damage delt (overall DPS increase)

 

Change Prototype Weapon Systems to give 15% Surge to ALL abilities (nerf for some abilities but increase to some)

 

Change Flame Barrage to Tac's idea of stacking and reduce the CD of RP to 7.5s

 

Change Power Loaders to reduce the CD of Shoulder Cannon to 45s (Proposed by Tac)

 

Remove Hamstring and instead merge it into Serrated Blades.

 

Add Bladed Gauntlet: Increase the critical chance of Retractable Blade by 2%/4%. In addition increase the Duration of Retractable Blade's Bleeding effect by 1.5/3 seconds. (New idea, this would eliminate the need for clipping RB to get all 4 ticks of FT inside 1 RB nice QoL and possible DPS increase)

[TACeMossie]

Also i call BS that you can do 2.2k DPS in MM with 156's, my dad who has played MM sniper since the beginning of the game can hardly pull that with 168 SB gear, though that's a totally different story of him refusing to spec change to Engineering because i KNOW he's the lowest DPS in my raid team (with my Madness sin coming 2nd to a Carnage Mara of all things...) but enough about this bickering and epeen, let's get back to the subject of AP Buffs that would bring Offensive Raid Utility, and Single Target DPS.

 

Ill post a vid later on just to prove it can be done (complete with going through all my gear to prove its 156s, no relics, no set bonus).

 

For now though... Legacy of the Rakata awaits

 

EDIT - Heres a vid. Sure its only a 2.1k parse, but I screwed up. I couldn't get parsec into the vid because bandicam didn't let me, and the quality is low, but you can do maths to determine im not lying by the length of the fight, as well as the quality is still 'just' high enough to determine my gear is all 156s.

 

My recommendation is make sure your dad is geared right, specced right, and changing his rotation so it consists of more than snipe and followthrough

 

Also that vid was a quick test of Bandicam to see how well it records, so it looks like my guide is gonna get a vid added next

Edited September 10, 2014 by TACeMossie

[OniGanon]

who in their right mind would use FT before hitting 3 stack PFT? (unless he is counting that you are already precharged with 3 stacks when you start the parse)

 

Thought that would go without saying.

 

Since you can build stacks beforehand with Flame Sweep, there's no reason to start the fight without full stacks. Therefore, Flamethrower comes early in the rotation so you don't waste stacks given by Flameburst and Immolate.

[Myxam]

I personally think the only thing that needs fixing is this small group's opinion of Full Auto/Unload. That and the 3% bleed damage getting raised, that'd be nice... so nice. Also Flame Sweep/Explosive Surge only really needs a way to reduce its cost.

 

Currently, with the right rotation, Tactics/AP is actually one of the few static rotations in the game. The only thing it really lacks is Oomph. Anyways, I most people these days are using the priority rotation but I think I came up with an improvement last week.

 

Next time you parse try this rotation out:

 

Gut/Retrac > Fire Pulse/Immolate > Ion Pulse/Flame Burst > Stockstrike/Rocket Punch > Ion Pulse/Flame Burst > Pulse Cannon/Flame Thrower > High Impact Bolt/ Rail Shot >Full Auto/Unload

[TACeMossie]

I personally think the only thing that needs fixing is this small group's opinion of Full Auto/Unload. That and the 3% bleed damage getting raised, that'd be nice... so nice. Also Flame Sweep/Explosive Surge only really needs a way to reduce its cost.

 

Currently, with the right rotation, Tactics/AP is actually one of the few static rotations in the game. The only thing it really lacks is Oomph. Anyways, I most people these days are using the priority rotation but I think I came up with an improvement last week.

 

Next time you parse try this rotation out:

 

Gut/Retrac > Fire Pulse/Immolate > Ion Pulse/Flame Burst > Stockstrike/Rocket Punch > Ion Pulse/Flame Burst > Pulse Cannon/Flame Thrower > High Impact Bolt/ Rail Shot >Full Auto/Unload

 

Sorry man, its a DPS loss. My personal best is just above 3.6k dps, but mixing in full auto on cooldown and I can't break 3.4

[ThaadJarvis]

Something needs to change when hitting one target vs hitting 3+, I do agree with a raid wide buff similar to the Mara fury temporary abilities, in AOE situations I tire of hitting each target w RB before Burning.. I posted a while ago that carbonite stun should apply blood tracker for up to 5 targets (cold shrapnel) idk how well this would pan out for every type of gameplay but I thaught it might work. Or add another cylinder type in that has single target AP buffs and the other AOE but uses similar roto.. Wat you guys think? Also aggro in large AOE conditions has become a death wish for the enemy and myself simultaneously.

[TACeMossie]

Something needs to change when hitting one target vs hitting 3+, I do agree with a raid wide buff similar to the Mara fury temporary abilities, in AOE situations I tire of hitting each target w RB before Burning.. I posted a while ago that carbonite stun should apply blood tracker for up to 5 targets (cold shrapnel) idk how well this would pan out for every type of gameplay but I thaught it might work. Or add another cylinder type in that has single target AP buffs and the other AOE but uses similar roto.. Wat you guys think? Also aggro in large AOE conditions has become a death wish for the enemy and myself simultaneously.

 

I think the best thing blood-tracker wise is to adjust snipers so their DoTs count as bleeds, so they activate Blood Tracker. Or adjust blood tracker so instead of DoTs, it runs off poison effects, while Retractable Blade is modified to cause poison damage instead of bleed damage.

You honestly dont know how awesome it is having a Dirty Fighting Scoundrel giving you blood tracker on everything with a single shrap bomb until you dont have that bonus anymore.

[ThaadJarvis]

In the big picture I'm not sure that AP needs to remain "mid-range" dps, is it that important to keep it from a full melee adv class that clearly pyrotech is the chosen one for, example next lvl cap ability could be something like rail shot is now flechette canister with only melee range but jetcharge Is now available and PFT stacks 1 or 2 more times. The flechette bracer would still auto crit the same way rail shot does only the range and animation are changed due to JC being your gap closer. Is being midrange/melee(current) superior to melee/dmg+ with a gap closer?

[ThaadJarvis]

Apologies- I messed up typing about pyrotech I meant that it is superior to AP in mid range combat and therefor AP could be the full melee (with gap closer).

[Gwence]

make AP rail shot hit harder than a 4 year old girl with a tickle feather and problem solved.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

make AP rail shot hit harder than a 4 year old girl with a tickle feather and problem solved.

 

My RS hits for ~6.4k in my current gear in AP, and when i play Pyro my current record is 9.1k Something is off here... We should have at minimum 10% Bonus Surge on RS as AP to make our RS hit a bit harder, or 10% more damage overall... that would boost our STD (Single Target Damage) by a decent margin. Flame Burst could stand to have 5% more damage or so, though i do think that our primary thing that needs to be fixed is the Prototype Cylinders talent should give 5% Elemental and Internal damage boost over 1%, to round it out to 10% damage from HEGC.

[Marb]

Maybe the combat team is using 3.0 as the chance to remove AoE as a spec speciality and bring specs like AP and Rage up to par for single target at the cost of gutting AoE damage. I'm not sure how they could apply that to AP without taking the spotlight off flamethrower. Edited September 22, 2014 by Marb

[Keypek]

Tactics still has its uses and its aoe damage in addition to its aoe reduction to damage makes it extremely useful in certain fights. Especially certain fights in nim df and dp. With the ability to get over 4k dps on certain boss fights.

 

Overall, I'd agree a little more single target would be nice for it but it doesn't need a whole lot since it fills its role as an aoe class quite well. I've always said just unnerf gut now that they finally killed the hybrid the way they should have back before they nerfed a bunch of stuff needlessly like gut. You can't have tactics doing single target damage close to pyro though or else in fights with aoe potential they'd be out of control dps wise.

 

Overall, VG is in a pretty good spot right now compared to previously. Be careful when wishing for massive changes to a class.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Ok, i just had a semi-unique idea.

 

Remove Hamstring and merge it into Serrated Blades.

 

New Ability for AP (replaces Hamstring)

 

Rail Barrage/Missile Barrage (Not sure which one would be more ******...) In essence it's like Master Strike/Ravage for AP. It would deal comparable damage to Ravage/MS also (when at 3 stacks of PWC).

 

Why not use Unload you say? Well, that would require needing to make Unload deal like 120% more damage than Flamethrower with 3 PWC stacks for it to work well. Adding a new ability would make it easier to work with. and my original idea was Flame Barrage where you would do a Flame Burst from your Left gauntlet thing, then right, then both, but it would be odd to animate something like that with VG, so that got scrapped in favor of this idea.

 

Rail Barrage/Missile Barrage would cost the same Heat and have the same CD as Flamethrower and deal slightly more damage than Flamethrower when both are at 3 Stacks of PWC (See Below) and would have a similar 3 second Channel Time. In essence it would be a Single Target version of Flamethrower, and it can be activated at 10 Meters to keep a bit of range to AP.

 

Change PFT's name to Prototype Weapon Charger and give the same buffs that Flamethrower would get, but add them to Rail Barrage/Missile Barrage to allow us to either deal more Single Target damage, or more AOE damage, when need be.

 

And also make all things that buff Flamethrower (PWS, PBE and Hyper Fuel) buff the new skill also.

 

Discuss.

 

Edit: Seriously? Nothing yet? i was expecting someone to tear down my idea as they have with just about every *********** thing i try to post...

Edited September 22, 2014 by Kaos_KidSWTOR

[Marb]

Ok, i just had a semi-unique idea.

 

Remove Hamstring and merge it into Serrated Blades.

 

New Ability for AP (replaces Hamstring)

 

Rail Barrage/Missile Barrage (Not sure which one would be more ******...) In essence it's like Master Strike/Ravage for AP. It would deal comparable damage to Ravage/MS also (when at 3 stacks of PWC).

 

Why not use Unload you say? Well, that would require needing to make Unload deal like 120% more damage than Flamethrower with 3 PWC stacks for it to work well. Adding a new ability would make it easier to work with. and my original idea was Flame Barrage where you would do a Flame Burst from your Left gauntlet thing, then right, then both, but it would be odd to animate something like that with VG, so that got scrapped in favor of this idea.

 

Rail Barrage/Missile Barrage would cost the same Heat and have the same CD as Flamethrower and deal slightly more damage than Flamethrower when both are at 3 Stacks of PWC (See Below) and would have a similar 3 second Channel Time. In essence it would be a Single Target version of Flamethrower, and it can be activated at 10 Meters to keep a bit of range to AP.

 

Change PFT's name to Prototype Weapon Charger and give the same buffs that Flamethrower would get, but add them to Rail Barrage/Missile Barrage to allow us to either deal more Single Target damage, or more AOE damage, when need be.

 

And also make all things that buff Flamethrower (PWS, PBE and Hyper Fuel) buff the new skill also.

 

Discuss.

 

Edit: Seriously? Nothing yet? i was expecting someone to tear down my idea as they have with just about every *********** thing i try to post...

 

I would rather they just remove unload from the PT and give us a new ability like you're suggesting, but I can't see the team bringing single target damage up without a change to how they balance AoE. Devs expressed their intention to give each spec their own way to deal competitive AoE damage when called for instead of it being a niche, so we can't expect a flat buff to single target dps for AoE specs, or there would be no reason to spec into the other trees.

 

Back to what you're suggesting, I want HK's terminate ability on my PT.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Marb

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

I would rather they just remove unload from the PT and give us a new ability like you're suggesting, but I can't see the team bringing single target damage up without a change to how they balance AoE. Devs expressed their intention to give each spec their own way to deal competitive AoE damage when called for instead of it being a niche, so we can't expect a flat buff to single target dps for AoE specs, or there would be no reason to spec into the other trees.

 

Back to what you're suggesting, I want HK's terminate ability on my PT.

 

Do you think i care about what the devs want? No... I care about what at minimum what I want, and if the community has a good idea, i care about that idea that the community has. The Devs have made some pretty stupid descisions in the past and it makes me think that Bioware needs to hire a slightly better dev team...

 

Back on topic a bit more, If HK's Terminate was made into an ability for PT's we would have like, Explosive Round Barrage for Vanguards and i think that that would look a bit wonky...

 

I dont really care about balance at this point, AP needs some kind of single target damage boost and this is the way to go, Flamethrower can stay the same, it would give us a hell of alot more DPS, somewhere in the 3.5k to 4k range i would say. but when you need to use AOE damage (Draxus, Grob'thok, Bestia, and a bit of Calphayus) you would have the ability to go back to AOE damage, I dont want this spec to have less AOE damage, i just want the single target DPS to go up because right now it's pitiful...

[Marb]

Do you think i care about what the devs want? No... I care about what at minimum what I want, and if the community has a good idea, i care about that idea that the community has. The Devs have made some pretty stupid descisions in the past and it makes me think that Bioware needs to hire a slightly better dev team...

 

Back on topic a bit more, If HK's Terminate was made into an ability for PT's we would have like, Explosive Round Barrage for Vanguards and i think that that would look a bit wonky...

 

I dont really care about balance at this point, AP needs some kind of single target damage boost and this is the way to go, Flamethrower can stay the same, it would give us a hell of alot more DPS, somewhere in the 3.5k to 4k range i would say. but when you need to use AOE damage (Draxus, Grob'thok, Bestia, and a bit of Calphayus) you would have the ability to go back to AOE damage, I dont want this spec to have less AOE damage, i just want the single target DPS to go up because right now it's pitiful...

 

With the current balance model we have AP is an AoE spec, if you want more single target dps there is a tree designed specifically for that with pyro. The alternatives would be to bring the single target and AoE damage of all specs within something like 5% or nerf AoE specs and buff their single target damage.

 

If we're going to discuss ways of fixing AP then it's intended design as an AoE spec needs to be considered. If you think an AoE spec pulling 4k single target is ok then there isn't much to discuss.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Marb

[Ottoattack]

Do you think i care about what the devs want? No... I care about what at minimum what I want, and if the community has a good idea, i care about that idea that the community has. The Devs have made some pretty stupid descisions in the past and it makes me think that Bioware needs to hire a slightly better dev team...

 

Back on topic a bit more, If HK's Terminate was made into an ability for PT's we would have like, Explosive Round Barrage for Vanguards and i think that that would look a bit wonky...

 

I dont really care about balance at this point, AP needs some kind of single target damage boost and this is the way to go, Flamethrower can stay the same, it would give us a hell of alot more DPS, somewhere in the 3.5k to 4k range i would say. but when you need to use AOE damage (Draxus, Grob'thok, Bestia, and a bit of Calphayus) you would have the ability to go back to AOE damage, I dont want this spec to have less AOE damage, i just want the single target DPS to go up because right now it's pitiful...

 

I agree, the AOE tax is currently so big for AP. Talking from PvP perspective as well, things are even worse now days with all the dot damage running around. AP feels like a relic from the past now. It is like "hey, remember when I used to counter AOE damage and melee?"

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

With the current balance model we have AP is an AoE spec, if you want more single target dps there is a tree designed specifically for that with pyro. The alternatives would be to bring the single target and AoE damage of all specs within something like 5% or nerf AoE specs and buff their single target damage.

 

If we're going to discuss ways of fixing AP then it's intended design as an AoE spec needs to be considered. If you think an AoE spec pulling 4k single target is ok then there isn't much to discuss.

 

 

The problem with the idea of "oh, if you want Single Target, play Pyro!" I HATE, i mean HATE with the burning passion of a thousand sons the heat managment mechanics of Pyro spec in PvE only, PvP i'm fine with it because there's enough downtime for my heat to dissapate naturally or i kill people in 1 - 3 GCD's and so my heat never goes above 30... Long fights though, Pyro's heat managment *********** blows... I want AP's Heat Managment + Retrac Blade and Immolate with Pyro's Damage, cant we have that? I dont care if we have to nerf Flamethrower by 5% - 10% on it's damage, i just want more Single Target DPS so i can be more raid viable than i am, currently my team is stuck on HM C0 and, if i had slightly more Single Target DPS on my AP PT, versus my Deception Sin, my raid team would accept my AP PT which i have bucketloads more fun with over my Deception Sin, now i could try to gear the toon better, which i'll admit i do need better gear (i'm a mix of 162 SB with a few 180 Mods and Enhancments, and some 168 Mods and Enhancments.) but, both my Sin and AP PT are nearly identical on gear and Aim/Willpower rating.

[Mallorea]

The problem with the idea of "oh, if you want Single Target, play Pyro!" I HATE, i mean HATE with the burning passion of a thousand sons the heat managment mechanics of Pyro spec in PvE only, PvP i'm fine with it because there's enough downtime for my heat to dissapate naturally or i kill people in 1 - 3 GCD's and so my heat never goes above 30... Long fights though, Pyro's heat managment *********** blows... I want AP's Heat Managment + Retrac Blade and Immolate with Pyro's Damage, cant we have that? I dont care if we have to nerf Flamethrower by 5% - 10% on it's damage, i just want more Single Target DPS so i can be more raid viable than i am, currently my team is stuck on HM C0 and, if i had slightly more Single Target DPS on my AP PT, versus my Deception Sin, my raid team would accept my AP PT which i have bucketloads more fun with over my Deception Sin, now i could try to gear the toon better, which i'll admit i do need better gear (i'm a mix of 162 SB with a few 180 Mods and Enhancments, and some 168 Mods and Enhancments.) but, both my Sin and AP PT are nearly identical on gear and Aim/Willpower rating.

 

AP should be at it's best in C0, because you basically stack up 3 and then run over and FT down all the adds. only problem is with the concussion mine, but if you time it right it shouldn't be an issue. Your gear is a little low to do HM as well (you generally want all 168's or better unless you're tremendously good at your class). Another strategy is grappling over the gold droid and getting both him and C0 in your FT. What I'm saying is you might want to rethink how the fight works and how AP works. Given the same gear level any spec of any class is viable all the way up till NiM.

[TACeMossie]

AP should be at it's best in C0, because you basically stack up 3 and then run over and FT down all the adds. only problem is with the concussion mine, but if you time it right it shouldn't be an issue. Your gear is a little low to do HM as well (you generally want all 168's or better unless you're tremendously good at your class). Another strategy is grappling over the gold droid and getting both him and C0 in your FT. What I'm saying is you might want to rethink how the fight works and how AP works. Given the same gear level any spec of any class is viable all the way up till NiM.

 

In fact, a deception sin DPS'd 5/5 DP NiM. An AP PT is better because it does the same sustained with more AoE