Empire or Republic. And why?

[Darth_Wicked]

I said that the Empire as a whole is not a meritocracy, and that it is only present in its most violent form among higher Sith ranks. And regular meritocracy should usually not require you to murder you master/teacher/colleague

 

I remember seeing high-ranking officers, within Imperial Intelligence and Military, constantly plotting to either kill or remove their superiors.

 

On Dromund Kaas.

On Balmorra.

On Belsavis.

 

And possibly some other places I can't exactly remember right now.

[Aries_cz]

Empire, because the Republic fleet station looks like a second hand purchase from the Hutts.

 

I have never been too keen on the Jedi Order either. No passion, no expression, no sex, no fun, inflexible and generally strike me as naive ideologues. As far as protagonists go (movies or otherwise), they have always been somewhat of a yawn fest for me. Although I have to say that playing a dark side Jedi Knight does have its... moments.

 

 

 

The Republic is in actuality a mixture of plutocracy, bureaucracy and totalitarian democracy (head of state is elected by the senators as opposed to the citizenry). The democratic side of the Republic is restricted to the elections of senators/representitives so it is to be taken with a grain of salt. The decentralized nature of the governance also makes it very fragile, inefficient and unwieldy in times of crisis.

 

The Empire on the other hand is not necessarily a fascist state. In the time of TOR, power is actually held by the Dark Council which would make it a Authoritarian (rule by a centralized group) and Kratocracy (rule by the strong) state. At other times it is a Totalitarian (more focused on a central figure that requires absolute obedience) but still Kratocracy state. Anyway, such governance structure is prone to internal power struggles and arbritrary qualifications to rule but in times of great crisis, it does tend to react quicker as well as more effectively.

 

Republic Fleet looks run down because at the beginning of the game, Republic is pretty much beaten down, so it reflects the situation.

 

Also, it seems to me that you do not really understand the Jedi. They are allowed to have passion, emotion, sex, fun, etc. Basically the only requirement is that they do not allow their attachments to cloud their judgment (so some Jedi preach the "there is no emotion" quite literally, even when it is not meant to be interpreted that literally). Hell, the Grandmaster of the Order has a secret lovechild (that she had to give away, exactly for the purpose she was afraid that she would be willing to do horrible things to protect the child).

 

Heads of state being elected by other elected representatives is a pretty common occurrence, and it is certainly not totalitarian. Just like US presidential candidates are not really elected by each and every citizen, but by electoral college. Also, Supreme Chancellor does not hold supreme power, most of stuff has to go through the Senate (unless the Senate allows for larger privileges, like in case of war).

 

Imperial rule is totalitarian in its nature. The word of Emperor is sacred and must be obeyed. If the Emperor is silent, the Dark council rules with the same authority, which is overridden only by the word of the Emperor. While this theoretically allows for quicker responses, the council has demonstrated many times that they would rather focus on internal power struggles than to achieve some common goal, even when faced with defeat.

[Darth_Wicked]

Also, it seems to me that you do not really understand the Jedi. They are allowed to have passion, emotion, sex, fun, etc. Basically the only requirement is that they do not allow their attachments to cloud their judgment (so some Jedi preach the "there is no emotion" quite literally, even when it is not meant to be interpreted that literally). Hell, the Grandmaster of the Order has a secret lovechild (that she had to give away, exactly for the purpose she was afraid that she would be willing to do horrible things to protect the child). (...)

 

It seems to me you didn't play this game that much truth be told. This is simply untrue.

 

ABSOLUTELY untrue.

[Aries_cz]

I remember seeing high-ranking officers, within Imperial Intelligence and Military, constantly plotting to either kill or remove their superiors.

 

On Dromund Kaas.

On Balmorra.

On Belsavis.

 

And possibly some other places I can't exactly remember right now.

 

Yes, but killing your superior is not really a meritocracy. It is a very degenerated form of meritocracy at best.

And if you notice, those people plotting are not really earning the position (which is what meritocracy is about), they need your help to do the job for them so that they can claim the credit. This ultimately leads to a weaker person takes the position.

[Darth_Wicked]

Yes, but killing your superior is not really a meritocracy. It is a very degenerated form of meritocracy at best.

And if you notice, those people plotting are not really earning the position (which is what meritocracy is about), they need your help to do the job for them so that they can claim the credit. This ultimately leads to a weaker person takes the position.

 

You misunderstand. If I read the post below correctly...

I said that the Empire as a whole is not a meritocracy, and that it is only present in its most violent form among higher Sith ranks. And regular meritocracy should usually not require you to murder you master/teacher/colleague

You seem to imply that only the Sith resort to such unsavory methods. I was only trying to point out that such is not the case.

 

Again, individuals within Imperial Intelligence and Military wish harm upon another as well.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Aries_cz]

It seems to me you didn't play this game that much truth be told. This is simply untrue.

 

ABSOLUTELY untrue.

 

I assume it comes down to how you interpret the Jedi code. Yes, if you interpret it literally in the "there is no emotion, there is peace" form, then yes, it means a celibate. However, if your interpret it in its original form ("there is emotion, yet there is peace" form), you will arrive at same conclusions as I do.

Many Jedi do not understand the Code, and they do interpret it literally (meaning celibate). It is not meant to be interpreted that way, as there are Jedi who are obviously breaking it, while still remaining paragons of Light Side. Yes, they are not sexually aggressive as certain Sith (the one from Smuggler Tatooine story comes to mind), but those Jedi who are not stupid sheep actually understand the code and what it means.

 

Assuming you are just not going on "derp, I get DS points for this, this is bad" logic.

[Darth_Wicked]

I assume it comes down to how you interpret the Jedi code. Yes, if you interpret it literally in the "there is no emotion, there is peace" form, then yes, it means a celibate. However, if your interpret it in its original form ("there is emotion, yet there is peace" form), you will arrive at same conclusions as I do.

Many Jedi do not understand the Code, and they do interpret it literally (meaning celibate). It is not meant to be interpreted that way, as there are Jedi who are obviously breaking it, while still remaining paragons of Light Side. Yes, they are not sexually aggressive as certain Sith (the one from Smuggler Tatooine story comes to mind), but those Jedi who are not stupid sheep actually understand the code and what it means.

 

Assuming you are just not going on "derp, I get DS points for this, this is bad" logic.

 

That's the difference between you and I truth be told.

 

I do not interpret the Jedi Code per se but rather, I gauge other characters' opinion and perspective on it.

 

You seem to imply that your interpretation of the code is the correct one or at the very least, the one that most characters in this game would go along with.

 

From what I've seen, it's not the case at all.

[Aries_cz]

You misunderstand. If I read the post below correctly...

 

You seem to imply that only the Sith resort to such unsavory methods. I was only trying to point out that such is not the case.

 

Again, individuals within Imperial Intelligence and Military wish harm upon another as well.

 

Well, yes, it is most noticeable and usually only really works in Sith higher circles. That the servants would attempt to emulate their masters, even though they are usually totally incompetent (BH story on Balmorra comes to mind) is another proof of how stupid the whole system is.

 

I still maintain that killing your superior (usually in some trickery on in larger numbers) to advance is not really a meritocracy, but a very degenerated form of it at best.

[Darth_Wicked]

Well, yes, it is most noticeable and usually only really works in Sith higher circles. That the servants would attempt to emulate their masters, even though they are usually totally incompetent (BH story on Balmorra comes to mind) is another proof of how stupid the whole system is.

 

I still maintain that killing your superior (usually in some trickery on in larger numbers) to advance is not really a meritocracy, but a very degenerated form of it at best.

 

I was thinking exactly of that one when I mentioned Balmorra.

 

I love Pirrell though. He's such a lovable idiot in a way.

 

[Aries_cz]

That's the difference between you and I truth be told.

 

I do not interpret the Jedi Code per se but rather, I gauge other characters' opinion and perspective on it.

 

You seem to imply that your interpretation of the code is the correct one or at the very least, the one that most characters in this game would go along with.

 

From what I've seen, it's not the case at all.

 

Yes, because the code in it literal form is taught as a mantra. Lot of Jedi do not bother with it and just accept it.

Yet there are instances in the game where the Council itself allows two Jedi to marry, so it seems that the Council is capable of making the distinction (even though they do warn you about the inherent dangers of marriage and forming attachments).

 

Not to mention, the person who probably represents the Light Side in the best possible way (Satele) has a son (of whose existence she kept quiet for many years)

 

[Darth_Wicked]

Yes, because the code in it literal form is taught as a mantra. Lot of Jedi do not bother with it and just accept it.

Yet there are instances in the game where the Council itself allows two Jedi to marry, so it seems that the Council is capable of making the distinction (even though they do warn you about the inherent dangers of marriage and forming attachments).

 

Not to mention, the person who probably represents the Light Side in the best possible way (Satele) has a son (of whose existence she kept quiet for many years)

 

Not in this game I think, unless I missed it.

 

EDIT:

 

Satele having a son and fully embracing sex, passion, etc etc, on a daily basis for most of her life is not exactly the same I think.

 

It was a slip, the exception to the rule.

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[RaiderMid]

Can't really choose a side. Both side tells a story that I find interesting.

[Nickious]

Not in this game I think, unless I missed it.

 

Well Kira mentioned something about it if you romanced her but its pretty damn strict and difficult to do so.

[Darth_Wicked]

Well Kira mentioned something about it if you romanced her but its pretty damn strict and difficult to do so.

 

You can marry Kira in secret, not openly. Also...

 

Female JK has a secret marriage of sorts with Doc in "basement floor" of the ship. Most awesome marriage scene in the game for me.

 

Loved it. And I'm a dude.

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Aries_cz]

Not in this game I think.

 

I am pretty sure it is

 

Unless I seriously misremember the Knight+Kira Story.

 

 

Still, Jedi who are wise and experienced enough see that taking the code literally exist (Nagani Zho, Gnost-Dural, too tired to remember and find any more).

 

but lot of Jedi take the Code as it is taught to them, and just never dig deeper. It is like in school. Most people just accept that Hydrogen and Oxygen combine into a water molecule, and do not dig further into it (lame analogy, I know, but my tired brain cannot come up with anything better)

[errant_knight]

To me, both sides can be equally interesting, although I do tend toward playing against expectations. I have to admit, Republic feels more frustrating to my republic characters while the empire is more potentially terrifying, lol. The republic *should* be more efficient, responsive and just plain better than they are. The sith are entirely right about rebublic hypocracy. It's difficult to know how to reform such a massive unwieldly apparatus. Things are a lot clearer for my sith--kill or disable everyone between you and your goal. That works for both LS sith who want reform and DS who want nothing more than power and victory.

[Nickious]

You can marry Kira in secret, not openly. Also...

 

Female JK has a secret marriage of sorts with Doc in "basement floor" of the ship. Most awesome marriage scene in the game for me.

 

Loved it. And I'm a dude.

 

Well you can marry Kira in secret yes, but she mentioned bylaws in the jedi code that allowed two jedi to be married openly, but like I said, they were pretty impractical to follow.

 

 

I'm a sap for that romantic ****. I'm probably going to be ending up with a female knight sooner rather than later. The one with Nadia Grell with the jedi consular was about as tear-jerking as you could get in game.

 

[Aries_cz]

I am just going to leave this here for Wicked, a pretty thorough analysis and dissection of Jedi Code.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579869

 

And now I am truly off

[Darth_Wicked]

I am pretty sure it is

 

Unless I seriously misremember the Knight+Kira Story.

 

 

Still, Jedi who are wise and experienced enough see that taking the code literally exist (Nagani Zho, Gnost-Dural, too tired to remember and find any more).

 

but lot of Jedi take the Code as it is taught to them, and just never dig deeper. It is like in school. Most people just accept that Hydrogen and Oxygen combine into a water molecule, and do not dig further into it (lame analogy, I know, but my tired brain cannot come up with anything better)

 

Nahhhh...

Both Female and Male Jedi Knight marry in secret, not openly.

 

As I mentioned earlier though, Female Jedi Knight and Doc have the most lovely ceremony.

 

 

[Darth_Wicked]

I am just going to leave this here for Wicked, a pretty thorough analysis and dissection of Jedi Code.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579869

 

And now I am truly off

 

And I'll leave this to you, yet again...

That's the difference between you and I truth be told.

 

I do not interpret the Jedi Code per se but rather, I gauge other characters' opinion and perspective on it.

 

You seem to imply that your interpretation of the code is the correct one or at the very least, the one that most characters in this game would go along with.

 

From what I've seen, it's not the case at all.

Once more, I'm not imposing my view on the code to anyone but rather relying on what other characters in the game say about it. Your view differs considerably from theirs.

 

That's all.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[TheNahash]

Yeah, Nazis are so much cooler than democratic nations.

 

Not necessarily cooler, but definitely more interesting.

We have democracy (well...most of us...in some form or another). We know how that feels like and why it works. And most of us despise Nazism.

 

But, in a game world where are actions have no consequences and it's all make believe, it's only natural that some people find the evil side of things more fascinating than the good side. It's like trying out what you can't and don't want to in real life.

 

Plus, the portrayal of good in movies, books and games is usually pretty boring. You either have to be a saint or evil incarnate with no wiggle room in between. Real life is usually somewhere in the gray area between the two. And saving virtual villagers is not as rewarding as burning their virtual village down - now, real life, that's pretty different.

Edited August 18, 2014 by TheNahash

[ScarletBlaze]

Not in this game I think, unless I missed it.

 

EDIT:

 

Satele having a son and fully embracing sex, passion, etc etc, on a daily basis for most of her life is not exactly the same I think.

 

It was a slip, the exception to the rule.

 

Jedi Consular can. My friend played a jedi consular (sage) and romanced Iresso and one of the choices she had was to keep it secret or not. She chose not to and when she did that the next conversation she had with Iresso he mentions some of the Council talked to him about it.

 

She also said that there was this dialogue

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=iresso+and+the+consular&vid=7979100dbd1cdeb842e145c37870c143&l=1%3A28&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608009911579248004%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dv7JQbSK4h_A&***=Consular+and+Lt.+Iresso+Part+Ten&c=3&sigr=11a32f0qn&sigt=1101qkgec&ct=p&age=0&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&hspart=ironsource&tt=b

Edited August 18, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[Oneirophrenia]

Republic Fleet looks run down because at the beginning of the game, Republic is pretty much beaten down, so it reflects the situation.

 

Umm sure, whatever. But it still doesn't change the fact that it is aesthetically unappealing to *me*. All the explanations in the world is not going to sway my sense of aesthetic appeal. If I'm not a fan of Cubism or Surrealism, I'm simply not going make it a point to attend Picasso or Dali exhibitions.

 

Also, it seems to me that you do not really understand the Jedi. They are allowed to have passion, emotion, sex, fun, etc. Basically the only requirement is that they do not allow their attachments to cloud their judgment (so some Jedi preach the "there is no emotion" quite literally, even when it is not meant to be interpreted that literally).

 

I only need three words to dispel your notion. Anakin and Padme. Obi-Wan's obvious disapproval aside, even Yoda has hinted for Anakin to just "let her go" despite his feigned ignorance. Moving on, now I'm no Star Wars lore/canon fanatic but yes, I have heard of the Jedi Code in passing:

 

1. There is no emotion, there is peace.

Emotionally dictated responses and actions are not inherently evil by any stretch of the imagination. Impulsive perhaps but bad? It just depends. Either way, repressing emotions to prevent it from influencing their actions seems a bit.. extreme.

2. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

Yet it is generally forbidden for Jedis to study Sith lore and dark side of the force. Unadulterated devotion to one's own religious beliefs while being oblivious to other beliefs just screams religious fanaticism to me.

3. There is no passion, there is serenity.

Passion is often times what drives people to achieve greater things. Like emotions, there is no active need to suppress it if one is capable of maintaining any semblance of self control.

4. There is no chaos, there is harmony.

Outright naive. Differences can sometimes bring people together and make it stronger as whole. "Harmony" is an oftenly perpetuated social delusion that simply does not exist.

5. There is no death, there is the Force.

Sure.

 

With in the context of the game, Jedi players were even specifically told that romantic relationships are frowned upon from the very beginning on Tython, in the form of a LS/DS choice to expose the couple (if I recall correctly). Having to dance around the code, playing the loophole game just to get permission to marry out of love? Yeah sorry, I'm still of the opinion that the Jedi Code is far more trouble than it is worth.

 

Hell, the Grandmaster of the Order has a secret lovechild (that she had to give away, exactly for the purpose she was afraid that she would be willing to do horrible things to protect the child).

 

Most parents would be willing to go to hell and back for their children instead of giving them up for "fear" of doing emotionally-driven, potentially unsavory things down the road. The example you gave is actually the perfect reason as to why I find the Jedi Order so unappealing. Being guided by your emotions doesn't always have to end badly as it can give you strength, courage and determination. One of the reasons why I believe the Jedi belief system to be somewhat naive.

 

Heads of state being elected by other elected representatives is a pretty common occurrence, and it is certainly not totalitarian. Just like US presidential candidates are not really elected by each and every citizen, but by electoral college. Also, Supreme Chancellor does not hold supreme power, most of stuff has to go through the Senate (unless the Senate allows for larger privileges, like in case of war).

 

Except in the US electoral college, the state's populace still cast ballots to determine how their electors will vote. Such is not the case with The Republic as the Supreme Chancellor is directly elected by the senators and representatives with no voter participation. On that note.

 

Totalitarian Democracy: Variant of democracy; refers to a system of government in which lawfully elected representatives maintain the integrity of a nation state whose citizens, while granted the right to vote, have little or no participation in the decision-making process of the government.

 

Sounds a lot of the ruling structure of The Republic to me.

 

As for your comment regarding the powers of the Supreme Chancellor, for the record, Totalitarianism does *not* have to revolve around a single person holding all of the power specifically. Sure it helps to have a charismatic dictator with a cult of personality but that is not a requirement.

 

Imperial rule is totalitarian in its nature. The word of Emperor is sacred and must be obeyed. If the Emperor is silent, the Dark council rules with the same authority, which is overridden only by the word of the Emperor. While this theoretically allows for quicker responses, the council has demonstrated many times that they would rather focus on internal power struggles than to achieve some common goal, even when faced with defeat.

 

Not necessarily. One of the key differences between Totalitarianism and Authoritarianism is that the former attempts to control every single aspect of the citizenry's public and private life while the latter doesn't. The amount of control in that arena exerted by the current TOR Sith Empire seems to be more Authoritarian as it does allow for some freedoms. The degree of that allowance is up for debate but in my opinion, Authoritarianism isn't automatically bad or evil while Totalitarianism often is.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Oneirophrenia

[Darth_Wicked]

Jedi Consular can. My friend played a jedi consular (sage) and romanced Iresso and one of the choices she had was to keep it secret or not. She chose not to and when she did that the next conversation she had with Iresso he mentions some of the Council talked to him about it.

 

She also said that there was a dialogue that if you have proven yourself then it is not a major problem.

 

 

Where is this marriage you speak of again? I'm curious.

 

Consulars don't even get a ceremony(!) to begin with.

 

Also, no actual talk with the Council either; Read the mails.

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[hunterraaze]

Not necessarily cooler, but definitely more interesting.

We have democracy (well...most of us...in some form or another). We know how that feels like and why it works. And most of us despise Nazism.

 

But, in a game world where are actions have no consequences and it's all make believe, it's only natural that some people find the evil side of things more fascinating than the good side. It's like trying out what you can't and don't want to in real life.

 

Plus, the portrayal of good in movies, books and games is usually pretty boring. You either have to be a saint or evil incarnate with no wiggle room in between. Real life is usually somewhere in the gray area between the two. And saving virtual villagers is not as rewarding as burning their virtual village down - now, real life, that's pretty different.

 

Pretty much this. Plain and simple, I don't like realism in Video Games. I like outlandish, bizarre, and different. That's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of CoD or Battlefield, they are to "realistic" and modern. And to me, that's boring. Note, I'm not a super big shooter guy in general. Fantasy is my favorite genre of fiction. I love settings involving Elves, magic, Dragons, swords and shields, all that kind of stuff. I love it because of how unreal it is. Morrowind is probably my favorite of the Elder Scrolls games because of how outlandish it was. Compared to Skyrim, which was basically The Elder Scrolls V: Washington. Seriously, I could just look out my window and see everything from that game (that and the dumbing down to appeal to the action junkies).

 

Enough of my ramblings. On topic, there are multiple reasons why I prefer the Empire to the Republic. One of which is mentioned above. But do understand, if it were real life, I would be in favor of the Republic. Once again, this is Fantasy, and purely my opinion.

 

Game play

 

From the game perspective, the Empire destroys in everything compared to the Republic. Animations are laughable and week on the Republic. Besides the Scoundrel Vs Operative, all of the classes animations are better on the Empire. Lighting vs Pebbles being the biggest offender.

 

I also like the voice cast on the Empire better. Besides the Male Jedi Knight, Smuggler, Trooper, and Female Trooper, I don't like the voices on the Republic. On the Empire side however, the only voice I don't like is the Female Bounty Hunters. The male Warriors and Female Trooper are my two favorites in the game.

 

The stories are also much better on the Empire, so far. I have completed all four Empire, and the Jedi Consular. My Trooper and Smuggler are halfway through, and my Knight is on Taris. So far, the Warrior story has been my favorite, and the Chapter 1 finale was the best story moment in the game. So far, the Agent and the Consular have been the worst stories. Agent had a good chapter 1, a terrible, long, never ending snooze fest of a Chapter 2, and some good moments in chapter 3. The consular was only good on Belsavis and Corellia.

 

Companions, once again the Empire have this over the Republic. Besides Mako, Torian, Quinn and the boring people (excluding Lokin) on the Agents companion composition, I really like all of the companions on the Empire. While the Republic, I so far have only liked the Troopers crew and Qyzen.

 

Leveling and dailies. You guessed it, Empire wins. I'm not going into a lot of detail here, I just like the Empire missions and story better.

 

Views and practice

 

This can be a little tricky. I know the Empire is evil, racist and terrible, but they are far more interesting. Keep in mind, none of this is real. As talked about above, most of us live in a Democracy in some form or another. So, this is close to reality, which again is mentioned above, is boring. The Empire is far more interesting to me. This does not mean I agree with their practice, entirely the opposite.

 

The Republic and the Jedi also are just kind of annoying. There is so much corruption in the Republic. Like, a lot. And they go around pretending to be the "good guys." I feel like in every planet arc for the Pubs you are dealing with some Politicians corruption, and fixing their mistakes. I can support their ideals, but.... Just, I don't really like the Republic.

 

And the Jedi. The majority of my dislike of them is from the prequels and the story/lore surrounding the Jedi of that time. The Jedi to me, are a bunch or self righteous religious zealots, who are willing to turn in their own just to appease the Senate. They are basically puppets to the Senate. They were given many signs that they would be betrayed, but continually brushed it off over and over again. They can not and will not adapt and do what needs to be done. The only part of that little ramble that applies to the ToR Jedi is the self righteous religious zealot piece, the other parts (including that one) are for the prequel era Jedi. Most of my disliking of the Jedi is from the prequel movies, as you can tell.

 

But that is one of the reasons I like Star Wars. If you really go into it, it's not a black and white evil and good type of story. It's a black and evil, or nothing but grey. Very interesting. That's another thing I like in fiction, not a clear cut generic good guy and bad guy type of story.

 

So basically, Empire>Republic.

Edited August 18, 2014 by hunterraaze