why is the SWTOR community so against "pay to win"

[Kantaso]

I am against P2W, it destroys the fabric of the game.

[Khevar]

Exactly. Just like the community isn't ready for something like that for the reasons I mentioned previously, perhaps the industry isn't for the reasons you mentioned. At some point, however, we have to encourage someone in the industry to take the chance and see if the theory could work in practice, and have the trust and faith that whomever it be will resist the temptation to resort to the current typical P2W practices. I know there are those out there who can do it. They now just need the will and support.

Devil's advocate here: Why do we need to encourage someone in the industry to take the chance?

 

The "carrot on a stick" approach to high-end gear drives a lot of players to run operations. Those of us that like the activity of running these operations end up with a wider pool of players. This results in more people actually playing the content the game has to offer.

 

In other words, the current model works.

 

What problem is being solved by encouraging developers to adopt a "Pay to Win" approach?

[TravelersWay]

Devil's advocate here: Why do we need to encourage someone in the industry to take the chance?

 

The "carrot on a stick" approach to high-end gear drives a lot of players to run operations. Those of us that like the activity of running these operations end up with a wider pool of players. This results in more people actually playing the content the game has to offer.

 

In other words, the current model works.

 

What problem is being solved by encouraging developers to adopt a "Pay to Win" approach?

 

For the reason that just because something works doesn't mean that we can't find something better, or at least in the attempt of finding something better, improve the system we have. That's pretty much how society advances and evolves, and exactly how the gaming industry has and will continue to evolve - if it is to survive.

Edited August 23, 2014 by TravelersWay

[DataBeaver]

For the reason that just because something works doesn't mean that we can't find something better, or at least in the attempt of finding something better, improve the system we have. That's pretty much how society advances and evolves, and exactly how the gaming industry has and will continue to evolve - if it is to survive.

But is pay2win better? Several reasons have been posted on this thread why it would be worse for at least some players. Who is to say whether the good sides outweigh the bad?

 

If you can come up with a reason why pay2win is objectively better than the current model, I'm interested to hear it.

 

And yes, the gaming industry does evolve. But that doesn't mean every game has to be the same. Not every animal is a fish. And making drastic changes to an existing game is always a risk as well; if it angers enough of its old player base, they'll write negative reviews of it, making it more difficult to get new players.

Edited August 24, 2014 by DataBeaver

[Khevar]

For the reason that just because something works doesn't mean that we can't find something better, or at least in the attempt of finding something better, improve the system we have. That's pretty much how society advances and evolves, and exactly how the gaming industry has and will continue to evolve - if it is to survive.

No doubt.

 

But my question was, "What problem is being solved by encouraging developers to adopt a "Pay to Win" approach?"

 

This is an important question. If the P2W approach were better, than by comparison, what we have now would be worse. Such a condition could be described as "what's the problem with the current approach"?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Khevar

[Uruare]

If pay to win were a thing, people like me would have all the goodies.

 

I'm not trying to brag here, but if I spend a thousand dollars a month on my games, I won't miss it. As it is, I spend considerably less, as there's not very much I care to even attempt to own.

 

I'm immune to gambling allure. I'm immune to that compulsion many seem to have - addiction maybe? - to keep doing things they're nor actively enjoying.

 

Additionally, I'm quite entirely immune to all of the adorable competetive kerfuffle. My e-peen cannot be threatened.

 

I play these games for storyline, and because the games themselves are sometimes pretty fun.

 

I rather enjoy dungeons. The demands of raiding are too much cream in the tea for my tastes, as I tend to like my group content to not be a giant choreographical production.

 

I'd be on Broadway if I wanted to be doing seven different dance routines with eleventy-four other people. As it is, my jerb provides me with all of those things I could ever want.

 

People like me work a lot and literally do not have the availability of spare time to do all the little time waste tediums mmo devs love to cram all over without making sacrifices I, for one, would sooner burn the whole game down than make.

 

I'd throw this entire game and everyone on it right under a bus before I'll ever tell my spouse 'But I need to raid this Saturday, my guilds needs meeeee!', as but one example.

 

So no. Pay to win would probably be bad.

 

The people that are terrible at RL would bawl endlessly. Their $15 a month and/or occasional little expenditures add up.

[Sith-Viscera]

Why Even pay to win? If by paying a butt load of real cash means, you will win in game, and you know your going to win,

then why bother playing at all, if you already won?

[TravelersWay]

But is pay2win better? Several reasons have been posted on this thread why it would be worse for at least some players. Who is to say whether the good sides outweigh the bad?

 

If you can come up with a reason why pay2win is objectively better than the current model, I'm interested to hear it.

 

And yes, the gaming industry does evolve. But that doesn't mean every game has to be the same. Not every animal is a fish. And making drastic changes to an existing game is always a risk as well; if it angers enough of its old player base, they'll write negative reviews of it, making it more difficult to get new players.

 

No doubt.

 

But my question was, "What problem is being solved by encouraging developers to adopt a "Pay to Win" approach?"

 

This is an important question. If the P2W approach were better, than by comparison, what we have now would be worse. Such a condition could be described as "what's the problem with the current approach"?

 

We can go to any MMO forum and find problems with the current approach, just as we can find multitudes of problems with the current Pay to Win approach as well (especially the ones that really are as bad as the gaming community still holds on to). Is every point a problem for every gamer? Of course not. But again, one of the things that looking for additional possibilities adds is giving gamers additional options for playing games that are more attuned to what they enjoy the most. As I have mentioned before, the main reason we should be playing a game is because it is fun. How it is fun will differ from person to person, naturally, but in theory, the more options we give to gamers to play a game in the manner that is the most fun, then we would have more gamers having more fun more of the time in the games they are playing, and hence want to keep playing longer and paying for more games and more stuff in those games.

 

If we take the current examples of people suddenly not playing Operations because they can get the rewards elsewhere, then that would seem to me to be a problem with the design of the Operations. Going under the assumption that we are playing to have fun and enjoy content, then we would still be playing Operations as they are regardless of the rewards because playing that content is fun and enjoyable. If that is not the case, then we can take a look at what people are playing over and over again, because the content is fun and enjoyable, analyze the reasons why, and adapt those mechanics to make Operations as fun and as enjoyable as that other content.

 

No one is saying every game has to be the same - they aren't now. And of course we can see plenty of examples of games that do evolve from one extent to another now (sometimes just one single thing, sometimes the entire gameplay) and getting the same angry results. Heck, this game got that the first few days and weeks it launched, and it hadn't even changed anything at that point. To use pissing people off as an excuse not to try to do something, well we might as well just put the entire gaming industry to rest right now because every game would be a WoW clone in that case.

[LyraineAlei]

How it is fun will differ from person to person, naturally, but in theory, the more options we give to gamers to play a game in the manner that is the most fun, then we would have more gamers having more fun more of the time in the games they are playing, and hence want to keep playing longer and paying for more games and more stuff in those games.

 

If we take the current examples of people suddenly not playing Operations because they can get the rewards elsewhere, then that would seem to me to be a problem with the design of the OperationOperations. Going under the assumption that we are playing to have fun and enjoy content, then we would still be playing Operations as they are regardless of the rewards because playing that content is fun and enjoyable. If that is not the case, then we can take a look at what people are playing over and over again, because the content is fun and enjoyable, analyze the reasons why, and adapt those mechanics to make Operations as fun and as enjoyable as that other content.

 

To use pissing people off as an excuse not to try to do something, well we might as well just put the entire gaming industry to rest right now because every game would be a WoW clone in that case.

 

Had to snip down for size.

 

What I call fun is different that what you call fun. From your posts, I have the feeling that when you're going somewhere, you want the most direct path from a to b, and that is why you want a pay to win system put in.

 

Me, and many of the others from their posts, we want to take the scenic route. Why? Because a speed run through the game means we have to sit around for months before stuff gets released for us to do once we his endgame.

 

Bored players with nothing to do leave and stop paying.

 

This is why top tier gear is not available in the cartel market for lowbie characters. To keep us busy until they release stuff. To keep us paying for stuff.

 

Now, no one, no one is denying that everyone has a different idea of fun. I find soloing fun, RP fun. I don't enjoy PvP. So if I want nifty PvP gear or Ops gear, I need to run through Ops/PvP or fork over the hundreds of thousands of credits for the GTN crafters and sellers.

 

This is a good thing. It keeps Ops runners having fun, because the queue fills up faster. This means people can run ops more often.

 

There was a problem with the ops. People weren't running them as often. Why? Lack of stuff to get and the long queue fill time. Cue GSH and turning ops from 16 man to 8man instead. Now more people are running ops again, letting those who enjoy ops run them.

 

Third: If you're a business, the goal is to make money. BioWare knows this. BioWare is feeding off of it. You can not make money by pissing off your customers. Why do you think boycotting is a powerful tool to spread word of terrible service? BioWare is making money by not having a play to win system, and retaining the customerbase they have, and keeping us entertained until they release for stuff for us to buy in the release of new content. Like GSH.

 

The system they have works.

 

What problem does Pay To Win solve? I read through your post several times. You did not answer the question you were asked about what good Pay to Win has to offer other than a short burst of endorphins and a short lived player base?

[Oyranos]

pay 2 win = legalized cheating, so everybody will stop playing.

 

its like every night if you try to PVP, most of the people are bots and with hacks... its unplayable...

 

Pay 2 win is a short of that thing, but introduced as pay2win... lol

Edited August 25, 2014 by Oyranos

[mokkh]

If pay to win were a thing, people like me would have all the goodies.

 

I'm not trying to brag here, but if I spend a thousand dollars a month on my games, I won't miss it. As it is, I spend considerably less, as there's not very much I care to even attempt to own.

 

I'm immune to gambling allure. I'm immune to that compulsion many seem to have - addiction maybe? - to keep doing things they're nor actively enjoying.

 

Additionally, I'm quite entirely immune to all of the adorable competetive kerfuffle. My e-peen cannot be threatened.

 

I play these games for storyline, and because the games themselves are sometimes pretty fun.

 

I rather enjoy dungeons. The demands of raiding are too much cream in the tea for my tastes, as I tend to like my group content to not be a giant choreographical production.

 

I'd be on Broadway if I wanted to be doing seven different dance routines with eleventy-four other people. As it is, my jerb provides me with all of those things I could ever want.

 

People like me work a lot and literally do not have the availability of spare time to do all the little time waste tediums mmo devs love to cram all over without making sacrifices I, for one, would sooner burn the whole game down than make.

 

I'd throw this entire game and everyone on it right under a bus before I'll ever tell my spouse 'But I need to raid this Saturday, my guilds needs meeeee!', as but one example.

 

So no. Pay to win would probably be bad.

 

The people that are terrible at RL would bawl endlessly. Their $15 a month and/or occasional little expenditures add up.

 

The unimportant self-importance is strong in this one.

I guess you just show up here to blow your horn to make yourself feel better about all the things you already have.

Keep on keepin' on.

[Uruare]

If you like Ops, then why would you stop doing Ops regardless of where the rewards can be obtained?

 

Because very few people actually enjoy raiding for its own sake.

 

Many will talk themselves up like they're practically enlightened philosophers and unsung heroes forming the very heart and soul of everything good and true in the gaming community.

 

The truth? They're just people that have the time, interest, and access to others with time and interest to all do the hokey pokey repeatedly.

 

Why? If you asked, most would have very many reasons. Most would be lying.

 

They want to be better than you. Anyone that is 'you', really. If they can imagine for even fleeting instants that someone stopping for the seconds as they ran past did do to admire them and their pat lewtz, their lives are complete.

 

They want your envy and your scorn. They want to be as gods amongst mere mortals, and they'll so at almost nothing to remain able to feel like they're better. If the game changes in ways that 'devalue' their 'achievements' (dilute their perceived greatness), fits shall be thrown. Tantrums.

 

Most would paint 'I'm a complete tool' on their characters foreheads if it let them somehow feel like their e-peens grew a millimeters for it.

 

Some will tell very homecooked-meal-and-best-friends stories about how they're not like that at all. Tales and yarns about the comradery, the friendship and stop the feels of accomplishment of finaly succeeding after a long struggle with their bosom buddies. Some odd those tales might even be true, though even for whom they'd true, they're nor likely to be enough on their own to keep them doing such things.

 

Take the phat lewtz out of the equation and you'll soon see who was lying like it's pathological about such things.

 

Almost everyone's a total liar about why they want better things for themselves. Some cry in one breath about how X, Y and Z have been made too easy, but there they'll typically be, capitalizing on the things they try to make themselves seem above.

 

Everyone wants it easy. Feeling challenged is far more important to most than actually being challenged. Most that spout endlessly about challenge can be counted on to probably be lying. If they look up anyone's online guides, they're not in it for challenge. If they get enraged over repeatedly wiping while learning an encounter, they're not in it for the challenge.

 

They're in our for the gear.

 

Some don't want it to be easy for anybody except themselves, because then just anybody can have nice things, be 'special', etc - the crying about this and that being devalued has no origin except dismay over feeling like other people can more easily get the things you have too, so they make you less special now.

 

They're in it for whatever will let them feel like, if only in pretendy-funtime land, they're big dogs. They're the superstars. They're the pro athletes all the mere mortals can only look upon in envy, despair and awe...or so they desperately hope.

 

Not everyone is in it for gear. Some few really are in it for the comradery, the challenge, the laughs and the overcoming-things-with-friends elements.

 

Most? They'll prefer you to shut up and not suck. If you're not helping them up the next step of feeling awesomer than the scrubs, you're a scrub and in their way, should learn your place and go back to hello kitty online.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Uruare

[mokkh]

Because very few people actually enjoy raiding for its own sake.

 

Many will talk themselves up like they're practically enlightened philosophers and unsung heroes forming the very heart and soul of everything good and true in the gaming community.

 

The truth? They're just people that have the time, interest, and access to others with time and interest to all do the hokey pokey repeatedly.

 

Why? If you asked, most would have very many reasons. Most would be lying.

 

They want to be better than you. Anyone that is 'you', really. If they can imagine for even fleeting instants that someone stopping for the seconds as they ran past did do to admire them and their pat lewtz, their lives are complete.

 

They want your envy and your scorn. They want to be as gods amongst mere mortals, and they'll so at almost nothing to remain able to feel like they're better. If the game changes in ways that 'devalue' their 'achievements' (dilute their perceived greatness), fits shall be thrown. Tantrums.

 

Most would paint 'I'm a complete tool' on their characters foreheads if it let them somehow feel like their e-peens grew a millimeters for it.

 

Some will tell very homecooked-meal-and-best-friends stories about how they're not like that at all. Tales and yarns about the comradery, the friendship and stop the feels of accomplishment of finaly succeeding after a long struggle with their bosom buddies. Some odd those tales might even be true, though even for whom they'd true, they're nor likely to be enough on their own to keep them doing such things.

 

Take the phat lewtz out of the equation and you'll soon see who was lying like it's pathological about such things.

 

Almost everyone's a total liar about why they want better things for themselves. Some cry in one breath about how X, Y and Z have been made too easy, but there they'll typically be, capitalizing on the things they try to make themselves seem above.

 

Everyone wants it easy. Feeling challenged is far more important to most than actually being challenged. Most that spout endlessly about challenge can be counted on to probably be lying. If they look up anyone's online guides, they're not in it for challenge. If they get enraged over repeatedly wiping while learning an encounter, they're not in it for the challenge.

 

They're in our for the gear.

 

Some don't want it to be easy for anybody except themselves, because then just anybody can have nice things, be 'special', etc - the crying about this and that being devalued has no origin except dismay over feeling like other people can more easily get the things you have too, so they make you less special now.

 

They're in it for whatever will let them feel like, if only in pretendy-funtime land, they're big dogs. They're the superstars. They're the pro athletes all the mere mortals can only look upon in envy, despair and awe...or so they desperately hope.

 

Not everyone is in it for gear. Some few really are in it for the comradery, the challenge, the laughs and the overcoming-things-with-friends elements.

 

Most? They'll prefer you to shut up and not suck. If you're not helping them up the next step of feeling awesomer than the scrubs, you're a scrub and in their way, should learn your place and go back to hello kitty online.

 

Projection at its finest.

[Uruare]

The unimportant self-importance is strong in this one.

I guess you just show up here to blow your horn to make yourself feel better about all the things you already have.

Keep on keepin' on.

 

Or maybe I have a point. Says more about you than it ever will me, what you choose to perceive in what others say.

 

As for my importance, yes a very good chance that I couldn't care less what you think about such things. I'm just as much an irrelevant cipher to you as your are too me, so let's not pretend otherwise.

 

These games make big bucks off people that are terrible at rl. For a sub and a crapton of your time, you can pretend you live in a world in which you're a big dog. A real epic mofo. A hero, meng!

 

Escapism is fun. But it's not all fun and games for some them, is it.

 

Ty to tell me this crap isn't more important than everything wise in their pathetic lives and I'll cheerily point you to the latest news articles about some wow-addict parents recently arrested for letting their children starve and go neglected for years because the game mattered more.

 

Those are just the people that get caught, do remember.

 

Are most like that? Enough so that the extremes are common enough to repeatedly make the news.

 

Puerile pretty frequently damage their lives, they'd health and their caters over these games. Where I work alone, is a big enough problem that we have a company sponsored support group for game addictions.

 

But hey, you keep telling yourself I'm just a self-important meanyface or something. There's no way I could possibly be right about how psychoticly protective people can get over their pretendy-funtime places in which they're not Bob the basement dweller and lazy failure at life, but Lord Lordicus Lordington, the envy of his lasts and the first amongst peers.

 

Tell me all about how letting the rl power evidencing general success, being wealth, influence in game power wouldn't send those that hide in these games because this is the only sort of place they can feel like they're the successful ones into frothing, shrieking rages.

 

Folks like me don't give a crap about it, because our senses of worth aren't wrapped up in it. Those wise senses is self worth ARE?

 

This isn't really a game to those sorts anymore. It's a surrogate for real life, fire some more than others, and for some to such extremes that they'll let their fricken children starve and go neglected for years because of it.

 

So yes. Pay to win world be terrible for some/many here. If not being terrible at rl were a leading factor, most would suck here add much as they do at rl, which august be very fun for them. Consequently, they'd quit, the game would die and that'd be the end of it.

 

These games need their addicts. All the nickels they hover up matter significantly.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Uruare

[Uruare]

Projection at its finest.

 

Why hello, Forum Freud. Did your degree in forum psychoanalytics arrive in the mail today, or am I simply hitting too many nerves that are too close to home for you?

Edited August 25, 2014 by Uruare

[LyraineAlei]

Projection at its finest.

 

Actually, I agree with the poster you quoted. I admit my goal for doing things like ops and flashpoints are usually for the gear. Sometimes the exp. Mostly the gear.

[Uruare]

Actually, I agree with the poster you quoted. I admit my goal for doing things like ops and flashpoints are usually for the gear. Sometimes the exp. Mostly the gear.

 

What I don't understand is why more people won't admit that. What's wrong with wanting ****** gear in a game in which you gear so heavily impacts a great deal of what we do?

 

We're a competetive species, too. Wanna to be better than others? Awesome, do it up. Couch it in false altruism and fake nobility and one just looks like a moron though, or so I think.

[LyraineAlei]

What I don't understand is why more people won't admit that. What's wrong with wanting ****** gear in a game in which you gear so heavily impacts a great deal of what we do?

 

We're a competetive species, too. Wanna to be better than others? Awesome, do it up. Couch it in false altruism and fake nobility and one just looks like a moron though, or so I think.

 

Because society demands that we at least appear less selfish. There is a reason many religions say that greed is a sin.

 

Although I admit I prefer to only collect gear that toon will use.

 

But if we want to look like fools playing at nobility in a game where none of this matters, why take that fun away. I like lording my Champion of the Great Hunt status on my BH.

 

But there is work put into those things, so there is value. It is why there is a value. Free things have little to no value. And if those things were put up on the cartel market, it is more likely to be considered little more than collectable trash for us gear hoarders who want all the fashions.

[Khevar]

If we take the current examples of people suddenly not playing Operations because they can get the rewards elsewhere, then that would seem to me to be a problem with the design of the Operations. Going under the assumption that we are playing to have fun and enjoy content, then we would still be playing Operations as they are regardless of the rewards because playing that content is fun and enjoyable. If that is not the case, then we can take a look at what people are playing over and over again, because the content is fun and enjoyable, analyze the reasons why, and adapt those mechanics to make Operations as fun and as enjoyable as that other content.

Part of the problem is the length of time it takes developers to produce new content in the form of end game PvE.

 

If I could wave a magic wand and somehow cause a new flashpoint to be added every other week, and a new operation every other month, the freshness of the new content would potentially be enough to keep everyone playing them, regardless of any rewards (or lack thereof)

 

Of course, that is just me being unrealistic.

 

Some games solve content delivery problems by turning "content" over to the players themselves (e.g. Eve Online). Some solve this by being Single Player games and have an ending.

 

The dynamic of an MMO is an interesting one. It grew out of the idea of "playing games with others". It's business model predicates people continuing to play it. Therefore it needs reasons to keep people coming back. The "new shiny" is one approach, and is particularly common in PvE based games.

 

It seems to me that any attempt to "innovate" a better P2W game would require designing it that way from scratch, rather than taking an existing game, such as TOR, and changing it into one.

[Uruare]

Because society demands that we at least appear less selfish. There is a reason many religions say that greed is a sin.

 

Although I admit I prefer to only collect gear that toon will use.

 

But if we want to look like fools playing at nobility in a game where none of this matters, why take that fun away. I like lording my Champion of the Great Hunt status on my BH.

 

But there is work put into those things, so there is value. It is why there is a value. Free things have little to no value. And if those things were put up on the cartel market, it is more likely to be considered little more than collectable trash for us gear hoarders who want all the fashions.

 

I'm typically surrounded by people that don't really mask their ambitions, though your points are all fair and apt. The error the might be mine, forgetting that greater society is quite as you observe.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Uruare

[DataBeaver]

We can go to any MMO forum and find problems with the current approach, just as we can find multitudes of problems with the current Pay to Win approach as well (especially the ones that really are as bad as the gaming community still holds on to). Is every point a problem for every gamer? Of course not. But again, one of the things that looking for additional possibilities adds is giving gamers additional options for playing games that are more attuned to what they enjoy the most. As I have mentioned before, the main reason we should be playing a game is because it is fun. How it is fun will differ from person to person, naturally, but in theory, the more options we give to gamers to play a game in the manner that is the most fun, then we would have more gamers having more fun more of the time in the games they are playing, and hence want to keep playing longer and paying for more games and more stuff in those games.

And what of those who would find the game less fun if the pay2win option was added? They chose this game because it was not pay2win. Would it be fair to drive them away by adding it now?

If we take the current examples of people suddenly not playing Operations because they can get the rewards elsewhere, then that would seem to me to be a problem with the design of the Operations. Going under the assumption that we are playing to have fun and enjoy content, then we would still be playing Operations as they are regardless of the rewards because playing that content is fun and enjoyable. If that is not the case, then we can take a look at what people are playing over and over again, because the content is fun and enjoyable, analyze the reasons why, and adapt those mechanics to make Operations as fun and as enjoyable as that other content.

Yes, there is a problem with operations. Namely, they are repetitive. Running an operation is fun in itself for the first time, and maybe a second time, but after that it becomes boring. The enemies are always in the exact same positions and behave in the exact same way. If you find it fun to repeat the same thing over and over, good for you. But I suspect I'm not alone in finding repetitive things boring.

 

Replay value can come from a number of sources. One of them is limiting the amount of progress you can make per playthrough, requiring many playthroughs to complete the game. This is the model used by practically all MMORPGs for their endgame content. It provides a large and easily scalable amount of replay value, at the expense of enjoyment.

 

Another source is providing multiple paths through the content and only allowing you to take one of them on a single playthrough. This is most often found in single-player games, but SW:TOR's story content also contains a few examples of it. Multiple paths provide a limited amount of replay value and require substantial developer effort.

 

A third source is randomization. When used to the fullest, the entire game is randomized, making every playthrough different. A notable example is the Civilization series, where you get a fully random game world. Another example is the Diablo series, which has partially randomized environments and items with fully randomized stats. Randomization provides potentially infinite replay value, but world randomization in particular requires a specific type of game to work well.

No one is saying every game has to be the same - they aren't now. And of course we can see plenty of examples of games that do evolve from one extent to another now (sometimes just one single thing, sometimes the entire gameplay) and getting the same angry results. Heck, this game got that the first few days and weeks it launched, and it hadn't even changed anything at that point. To use pissing people off as an excuse not to try to do something, well we might as well just put the entire gaming industry to rest right now because every game would be a WoW clone in that case.

Every game is characterized by a set of features. Whether it is pay2win or not. Whether it is subscription-based or free2play. Whether it focuses on PvE or PvP. Whether it is single-player, traditional multi-player or an MMO. These features factor in players' decisions to pick up any particular game. If an important feature is later changed, especially in an online game where the update can't be avoided, players will feel betrayed and leave the game.

 

Yes, the gaming industry evolves. Today's games are very different from those a decade ago, and those were different from the ones we had two decades ago. Yes, having games with different sets of features is a good thing. SW:TOR is different from Wildstar, which is different from ESO, which is different from Guild Wars. But should all games try to implement the feature of the year? I think not. There are plenty of games out already, with more being released constantly. Those players who feel pay2win is important should perhaps look for a game that already implements it.

[JediMasterSLC]

the CM should be used to bypass work

 

wrong

[Reno_Tarshil]

wrong

 

What's this? Me agreeing with SLC? Sound the apocalypse sirens.

[LyraineAlei]

I'm typically surrounded by people that don't really mask their ambitions, though your points are all fair and apt. The error the might be mine, forgetting that greater society is quite as you observe.

 

The error is not yours. If society ran the way you read to be, blunt and to the point without fancy nonsense, then things would likely get done faster. And then lawyers and politicians would be looking for new jobs.

 

Anyway, otherwise back on topic, why should work be surpassed by cash in this game? Work keeps us playing.

 

 

And it is starting to look like the topic has been beaten down to death because I haven't seen anyone point out how pay2win is a good business model for this game?

[errant_knight]

Personally, I don't use cartel crystals on my lowbies. For one thing, it makes the game too easy and I find that dull. But most people consider that the first 50 levels are story and the competitive part of the game starts at 50 outside pvp. It would be very bad if you could buy expertise gear at any level. If you were to be able to buy an advantage there or at 50 for pve, it would truly suck because you'd be skipping a lot of work that others put into gearing their characters. It's just not acceptable.