Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Aurbere]

Don't forget diamond boron missiles and corvettes.

 

All in good time, my friend, all in good time. And by that I mean after my errands.

 

Someone please fill in for me while I'm out.

[Aurbere]

I still believe that both Ventress and Guri would be in space. Both are skilled pilots, and I see them dog fighting as a very real possibility.

 

Obviously Guri wins

 

But seriously. The Stinger is by far a better ship then the Trident. If Ventress get behind Guri, she will be hit with proton missiles. Any other side? Ion cannon. In front? Blasted with laser fire and potentially discord missiles.

 

Guri's ship is good, but I have already laid out a plan to destroy it. You may have missed, so I'll reiterate later.

[tausra]

Beni, can I have Nar Shaddaa for Black Sun? Look at it this way. Durga was a Vigo for Black Sun under Xizor. Durga was the leader of Besadii at this time as well. Xizor technically owned the kadijic, who was on Nar Shaddaa.

 

Hence, Black Sun on Nar Shaddaa.

 

I object to this on many levels. No one else has had the luxury of being able to move locations mid Kaggath, especially to a location across the galaxy. Canino chose his location and should have to live with it, sorry about your luck.

[Silenceo]

I object to this on many levels. No one else has had the luxury of being able to move locations mid Kaggath, especially to a location across the galaxy. Canino chose his location and should have to live with it, sorry about your luck.

 

He had originally been on Nar Shaddaa and had been moved due to arbitrary decisions, which apparently have been repealed.

[Beniboybling]

I object to this on many levels. No one else has had the luxury of being able to move locations mid Kaggath, especially to a location across the galaxy. Canino chose his location and should have to live with it, sorry about your luck.

The original location he chose was Nar Shaddaa :/

 

I think people need to understand the situation here, Canino chose Nar Shaddaa as his planet. However I came to decide that that was not a valid choice and changed it to Mustafar. Due to miscommunication Canino didn't approve this choice, so at the start of the Kaggath I gave him an option to change, he chose Coruscant. But Sel brought it to my attention that that planet was taken, so I requested that he choose another planet. Hence the situation we are in now.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Alright folks I'm going to call space today so if you have any final arguments, now's the time.

[Aurbere]

Alright folks I'm going to call space today so if you have any final arguments, now's the time.

 

I'm going to be busy most of the day, though.

 

I'll try to get a final argument posted as soon as I am able.

[Beniboybling]

I'm going to be busy most of the day, though.

 

I'll try to get a final argument posted as soon as I am able.

Well I'll wait until then, if I'm around.

[Aurbere]

Well I'll wait until then, if I'm around.

 

I'll write it up as soon as I get back from my errands.

[Beniboybling]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: STARFIGHTER NUMBERS

 

Oh and if folks are interested based on the squad sizes of pirate fighters featured in EaW cross referenced with information from Wookieepedia and using the standard fleet composition for 6 ISD-Is and 12 Acclamator-Is we can estimate the Confederacy fleet to have approx. 2,000 fighters (equally split) and 72 boarding craft.

 

This is however, an estimation, and will not be added to the OP. I'll put it in the info box though.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Oh and if folks are interested based on the squad sizes of pirate fighters featured in EaW cross referenced with information from Wookieepedia and using the standard fleet composition for 6 ISD-Is and 12 Acclamator-Is we can estimate the Confederacy fleet to have approx. 2,000 fighters (equally split) and 72 boarding craft.

 

This is however, an estimation, and will not be added to the OP. I'll put it in the info box though.

 

Which is pretty much ruining the plan of sending off a score of missiles, as sending like 800 missiles is really gonna **** with fighters...

 

No but seriously... Yeh. They'll at least get in the way when assaulting capital ships..

Edited August 10, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Which is pretty much ruining the plan of sending off a score of missiles, as sending like 800 missiles is really gonna **** with fighters...

I expect they'd start with diamond boron missiles to soften up the enemy, then move the fighters in and proceed with concussion missiles. Which shouldn't harm the fighters as long as they keep out of trajectories.

 

Or they could pull the fighter back after the boarding craft have been escorted, to protect the Broadsides.

[Selenial]

I expect they'd start with diamond boron missiles to soften up the enemy, then move the fighters in and proceed with concussion missiles. Which shouldn't harm the fighters as long as they keep out of trajectories.

 

Or they could pull the fighter back after the boarding craft have been escorted, to protect the Broadsides.

 

Uhhh.

 

Why do they have access to Diamond Boron Missiles? They weren't an underworld used weapon, too expensive for even them, and not really worth it to buy on the black market, not that special.

[Beniboybling]

Uhhh.

 

Why do they have access to Diamond Boron Missiles? They weren't an underworld used weapon, too expensive for even them, and not really worth it to buy on the black market, not that special.

Early models carried a payload of expensive diamond boron missiles; their high-yield area effect detonations proved useful against tightly packed ship formations. Later models were fitted with more economical concussion missiles.

 

--the Databank

 

They had a practically limitless amount of credits; more than enough to finance any operation they wished to complete.

 

--Wookieepedia [source: Shadows of the Empire]

 

Go figure.

 

EDIT: Diamond boron missiles were also utilized by the Zann Consortium

Edited August 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Early models carried a payload of expensive diamond boron missiles; their high-yield area effect detonations proved useful against tightly packed ship formations. Later models were fitted with more economical concussion missiles.

 

--the Databank

 

They had a practically limitless amount of credits; more than enough to finance any operation they wished to complete.

 

--Wookieepedia [source: Shadows of the Empire]

 

Go figure.

 

EDIT: Diamond boron missiles were also utilized by the Zann Consortium

 

Does it note what type?

 

Because if they're just regular Diamond Borkn missiles, there's nothing saying they're any better than regular stuff. MS-15's were the good ****.

[Beniboybling]

Does it note what type?

 

Because if they're just regular Diamond Borkn missiles, there's nothing saying they're any better than regular stuff. MS-15's were the good ****.

Considering the MS-15s were made by Sienar for the Empire during the Galactic Civil War and the Broadside was an Imperial capital ship developed during said Civil War, I think its almost certain that we are dealing with the MS-15.

 

Which, reading up on them, and in such vast numbers - each Broadside has 40 launchers and a total of 1,200 missiles - could prove very very dangerous indeed. However you make a good point about friendly fire.

[Selenial]

Considering the MS-15s were made by Sienar for the Empire during the Galactic Civil War and the Broadside was an Imperial capital ship developed during said Civil War, I think its almost certain that we are dealing with the MS-15.

 

Which, reading up on them, and in such vast numbers - each Broadside has 40 launchers and a total of 1,200 missiles - could prove very very dangerous indeed. However you make a good point about friendly fire.

Not exactly.

 

The MS-15 was developed at the height of the Galactic Civil War, with Broadsides being designed while the rebellion was in its infancy.

[Beniboybling]

Not exactly.

 

The MS-15 was developed at the height of the Galactic Civil War, with Broadsides being designed while the rebellion was in its infancy.

Indeed, but considering they were eventually swapped out for a more cost effective variant, which is exactly why Sienar's product failed. I'd say that this is the variant we are dealing with here.

[Aurbere]

Alright, I'm back from my errands, so I'll get to writing my final argument for space.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, I'm back from my errands, so I'll get to writing my final argument for space.

In your argument, you might want to consider a counter-tactic for hit and run attacks, which is currently where I see this fight going, as opposed to close range fire.

[Aurbere]

In your argument, you might want to consider a counter-tactic for hit and run attacks, which is currently where I see this fight going, as opposed to close range fire.

 

Yes, that's the plan. Speaking of hit and run, are all planets in play here, or just those that are picked?

[Aurbere]

I'm going to break my final argument down into sections to discuss the various strategies and topics, and I'll put forth the Fist's strategies.

 

Primary strategy:

 

The Fist's strategy is to get in close and shatter the smaller, weaker ships of the Confederacy fleet. Bringing the fight to the enemy and annihilating them with superior firepower.

 

Tacticians:

 

Let's be honest here, the Confederacy really isn't bringing anything to the table here. Who is commanding the pirate fleet? Do they have any real skill in that area? Even if they do, they are up against a very smart man in Grand Moff Kilran. Kilran was the Sith Empire's greatest military mind, and he masterminded some of the Empire's greatest victories.

 

Whoever the Confederacy has leading its fleet, I don't see them as being smart enough to outwit someone like Kilran.

 

Firepower:

 

Obviously the Fist has the advantage here. A single Harrower could take on a small fleet of smaller vessels on it own, 20 of them are more than enough to deal with most of the pirate vessels. The Gladiators were practically designed for combat against pirate vessels. Together they can deal with the majority of the pirate vessels.

 

On the other hand, the Confederacy's navy doesn't bring a lot of firepower to the table. The only ships capable of doing anything to the larger Fist ships are the Broadsides, which leads me to the next section.

 

Defense against the Broadsides:

 

The Broadside cruisers are a major threat with their long range, devastating missiles. However, those who played Empire at War will know that these diamond boron missiles were very slow. Slow targets are easy to hit. The Gladiators possess a plethora of point defense guns, more than enough to destroy most of the missiles, those that do make it through will not be enough to significantly damage the Fist fleet.

 

But the Fist can't just sit and play defense. Like I said before, the Fist will move in and take the fight to the enemy. Broadsides work most effectively when out of sensor range, so this tactic will force the broadsides to move back out of sensor range. Unfortunately for them, they are slow as molasses and can't shoot missiles backwards.

 

Finally, once battle is joined, the Broadsides will lose effectiveness. They won't be able to shoot at Fist ships without fear of hitting friendly units.

 

Stinger and Virago:

 

Deadly ships, no doubt, but the Fist also possesses very powerful fighter units of its own: the Fury. Each of these ships possess the agility of an interceptor and the firepower of much larger ships. Any one of these ships possess the weapons necessary to destroy the Stinger before it can do any major damage.

 

Next we have Ventress in her personal starfighter. As a pilot she was skilled enough to hang with Anakin Skywalker, the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, as many believed. She will be more than capable of outflying the Virago, and her ship's weapon systems are more than sufficient to bring it down.

 

Boarding Parties:

 

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record at this point, but these points need to be put forth.

 

During the Great War and Cold War, boarding parties were used routinely during space combat. Kilran also used boarding parties and had experience dealing with boarding parties. He will likely prepare defenses against boarders and know how to deal with a situation such as that. There is also a matter of the Sith Marines, who are likely highly skilled fighters, if the quality of the Sith Soldiers is any indication. They will likely be able to repel boarders with some guidance by Kilran.

 

There is also the complicated task of getting the transports through the fighting and into the Fist's ships. As I mentioned before, the assumed numerical superiority of the Fist's fighters should make it easy to target and destroy most enemy transports before they reach their destination.

 

Finally, I do not believe that Xizor will dedicate a large force to boarding parties. As I mentioned before, the droid units he has are not cheap and not easy to make. Yes, Xizor has money covered, but money does not make droids build faster. One of the early TCW commentaries, I believe, stated that the Separatists used the dim-witted battle droids because they were cheaper and easier to make, and that's why you don't see a ton of Commando Droids. The case applies here as well. Xizor can pay, but he can't make them any faster, especially with only one factory world.

 

Further, his forces are at a severe disadvantage on the ground. He can't dedicate many units to boarding craft, lest the Fist gain even more advantages in the ground battle.

 

Hit-and-Run:

 

As has been mentioned before, the Confederacy fleet will likely opt for hit-and-run strategies. These strategies are effective, of course. However, they have only been truly effective because the enemy doesn't know where you are striking from. However, per the rules of the Kaggath (specifically rule #96) the Confederacy can only access worlds it has under its control. This leaves them with Nar Shaddaa and Hypori. Nar Shaddaa is too far, which means that their likely place of retreat is Hypori. Using this obvious knowledge, Kilran can quickly pursue the Confederacy fleet to Hypori upon its retreat and attack the unsuspecting pirates, destroying them before they can mount a defense or retreat.

 

========================================

 

That's basically my final argument. The Fist of the Empire simply has too many advantages over the CIC fleet. It will be able to mitigate the Broadside cruisers' effectiveness and deal with the majority of their strategies in a variety of ways.

 

Oh, if I'm interpreting rule #96 wrong, tell me, so I can apply my backup strategy.

 

Now that this is posted, I have some homework to finish up, so I won't be around for an hour or two.

[Canino]

Which is pretty much ruining the plan of sending off a score of missiles, as sending like 800 missiles is really gonna **** with fighters...

 

No but seriously... Yeh. They'll at least get in the way when assaulting capital ships..

It would be easy for the fighters to stay back during the bombardment. Then swarm in with discord missile cover and wreck the Empire.

 

I was looking, and it doesn't seem the Fury has any defensive stats. So, what are we going with? Obviously they have armor and shields, but how strong are they? Any ideas?

[Selenial]

It would be easy for the fighters to stay back during the bombardment. Then swarm in with discord missile cover and wreck the Empire.

 

I was looking, and it doesn't seem the Fury has any defensive stats. So, what are we going with? Obviously they have armor and shields, but how strong are they? Any ideas?

 

They were fitted to house Sith, AKA gods in the eyes of the Imperials.

 

One would assume they're the equivalent of the SpecForce Thunderclaps, having the most up to date and expensive shielding and Weaponry, along with armor.

 

If the republic "spared no expense" for their SpecOps, I doubt the Empire would be stingy with their Sith.

[Silenceo]

Tacticians:

 

Let's be honest here, the Confederacy really isn't bringing anything to the table here. Who is commanding the pirate fleet? Do they have any real skill in that area? Even if they do, they are up against a very smart man in Grand Moff Kilran. Kilran was the Sith Empire's greatest military mind, and he masterminded some of the Empire's greatest victories.

 

Whoever the Confederacy has leading its fleet, I don't see them as being smart enough to outwit someone like Kilran.

 

That is the beauty of the CIC's plan though, they do not NEED a great tactician. They have all done this strategy or versions of it before. They have experience doing it, and while yes Kilran is an epic commander, there is practically nothing he can do if he can not catch them. Think along the lines that he is a lumbering behemoth, and the CIC is a squad of men with guns. The behemoth will not go down easily, and can take many hits. If it catches its prey it wrecks it, but actually doing so proves quite difficult due to its slow speed.

 

Firepower:

 

Obviously the Fist has the advantage here. A single Harrower could take on a small fleet of smaller vessels on it own, 20 of them are more than enough to deal with most of the pirate vessels. The Gladiators were practically designed for combat against pirate vessels. Together they can deal with the majority of the pirate vessels.

 

On the other hand, the Confederacy's navy doesn't bring a lot of firepower to the table. The only ships capable of doing anything to the larger Fist ships are the Broadsides, which leads me to the next section.

 

They have the close range firepower advantage, yes. They however have next to nothing in long range firepower. That is where the CIC dominates the field. 36 vessels armed with 40 missile launches, with large payloads to deliver. Slow or not, it is going to be a cloud of missiles pummeling the Fist fleet. Turbolasers do you no good when the enemy is out of range.

Defense against the Broadsides:

The Broadside cruisers are a major threat with their long range, devastating missiles. However, those who played Empire at War will know that these diamond boron missiles were very slow. Slow targets are easy to hit. The Gladiators possess a plethora of point defense guns, more than enough to destroy most of the missiles, those that do make it through will not be enough to significantly damage the Fist fleet.

 

But the Fist can't just sit and play defense. Like I said before, the Fist will move in and take the fight to the enemy. Broadsides work most effectively when out of sensor range, so this tactic will force the broadsides to move back out of sensor range. Unfortunately for them, they are slow as molasses and can't shoot missiles backwards.

 

Finally, once battle is joined, the Broadsides will lose effectiveness. They won't be able to shoot at Fist ships without fear of hitting friendly units.

 

I have to HEAVILY disagree here. 10 point defense guns per gladiator is not a "plethora" At best, that is 180 point defense guns since they are not listed to be in the Invincible or the Harrowers. 10 is hardly enough to even cover themselves, let alone the other vessels. Add to the fact the sheer amount of missiles coming their way, and there is absolutely no way they are going to be able to simply shoot down all of the missiles. Even going at their fastest and luckiest pace of anti-missiles, they MIGHT shoot down say...1/10 of the missiles. They will still get pummeled, and it will hurt, a lot. Not to mention if the Fist fighters are already deployed, they will take heavy losses. Or if they try to rush the Broadsides they will be utterly decimated by the CIC fighters combined with the Crusader corvettes.

 

 

Hit-and-Run:

 

As has been mentioned before, the Confederacy fleet will likely opt for hit-and-run strategies. These strategies are effective, of course. However, they have only been truly effective because the enemy doesn't know where you are striking from. However, per the rules of the Kaggath (specifically rule #96) the Confederacy can only access worlds it has under its control. This leaves them with Nar Shaddaa and Hypori. Nar Shaddaa is too far, which means that their likely place of retreat is Hypori. Using this obvious knowledge, Kilran can quickly pursue the Confederacy fleet to Hypori upon its retreat and attack the unsuspecting pirates, destroying them before they can mount a defense or retreat.

 

Who ever said they would jump out of the system? Star systems are pretty large places, just saying. I will say however, if the CIC for some reason does opt to retreat to those planets, then they could easily slip reinforcements to the battleground planet with smugglers while the Fist fleet is drawn away. Though, I actually doubt that the Fist fleet would catch them. Other than the Gladiator, are the other ships known for their speed? They seem more known for firepower.

 

 

Overall it isn't a matter of tacticians for the CIC, it is for them merely following a recipe if you will, one that they have done so many times it likely one they know by heart. Fire missiles, fire more missiles, retreat. Fire missiles, fire missiles, retreat. That is the beauty of this plan, even half wits could follow it, and have followed it. Unless Kilran comes up with a fancy way to reach the CIC fleet, then I am afraid the Fist will slowly be whittled away from range.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Silenceo