hybrid balance sage dps.

[McKlusky]

i have for a while had my sage set up as a hybrid balance. for me its the best option for raid as it has tremendous movement ability and great force regen. i have hardly ever ran out of force power and i can keep up my dps during movement instensive fights. its been a while since i ran ops and parsed but the last time i did i somewhat kept up with a better geared tele sage who was beast.

 

heres the spec.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600hMZfcMbbZfMcRsbkr.3

 

i do this a few reasons. first it is an incredibly easy rotation. i usually open with FiB, then tele throw which procs PoM so i get a free mind crush followed by weaken mind. then its spam tele throw and disturbance (on PoM procs) untill FiB is nearly off cd. then its just more of the same.

 

not only is this rotation easy but with the changes in i guess 2.8 where pom procs happen quite often, i can set up to easily have plenty of instant casts to make on the run. if i need more i jsut have to stop long enough for a tele throw to get another pom proc.

 

stats are not quite NiM ready but i can handle hard mode when i pay attention.

 

like i said, i love this spec for the easy movement, easy rotation and no force problems. maybe not as great as a full tele set up but what i lose gets quickly gained back when the movement starts.

 

thanks for advice, and constructive critisism......******s can get lost!

[TACeMossie]

i have for a while had my sage set up as a hybrid balance. for me its the best option for raid as it has tremendous movement ability and great force regen. i have hardly ever ran out of force power and i can keep up my dps during movement instensive fights. its been a while since i ran ops and parsed but the last time i did i somewhat kept up with a better geared tele sage who was beast.

 

heres the spec.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600hMZfcMbbZfMcRsbkr.3

 

i do this a few reasons. first it is an incredibly easy rotation. i usually open with FiB, then tele throw which procs PoM so i get a free mind crush followed by weaken mind. then its spam tele throw and disturbance (on PoM procs) untill FiB is nearly off cd. then its just more of the same.

 

not only is this rotation easy but with the changes in i guess 2.8 where pom procs happen quite often, i can set up to easily have plenty of instant casts to make on the run. if i need more i jsut have to stop long enough for a tele throw to get another pom proc.

 

stats are not quite NiM ready but i can handle hard mode when i pay attention.

 

like i said, i love this spec for the easy movement, easy rotation and no force problems. maybe not as great as a full tele set up but what i lose gets quickly gained back when the movement starts.

 

thanks for advice, and constructive critisism......******s can get lost!

 

What we have here is a slightly inferior Balance heavy hybrid. May I suggest moving points from Pain Bearer into TK wave + Tidal Force? The main reason for hybrid over 1/9/36 balance is it has significantly more AoE (1/9/36 has no resource issues)

Oh and also move the points from mental longevity into concentration. You have no need for the extra 100 force, and a 30% increase to force regen from all the disturbances will quickly overtake the benefits from extra max force

 

If you want even more DPS though, use this one:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600bZssrrdobcoMZcMcRs0z.3

 

Free instant TK wave every 10 seconds, double ticks on disturbance + TK wave, double speed TK Throw every 10 seconds, and a 50% surge boost to disturbance/TK wave and a 2% bonus damage boost from every double tick (stacks 3 times and is usually up all the time) while Balance is making every disturbance/mind crush 35% stronger and giving lots of instant casts

Edited July 29, 2014 by TACeMossie

[MusicRider]

If you want even more DPS though, use this one:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600bZssrrdobcoMZcMcRs0z.3

+1 on this with the only exception I would prefer 2/2 force gift than penetrating light as dist is covered by critical kinesis. It has hands down one of the best aoe in the game and proced dist can approximate turbulence when it crits.

 

However, to OP, for really challenging and serious raids I would play the spec that is more appropriate... lots of target switching then TK, lots of movement required then balance...

[StormTerminus]

I have been experimenting with 2/28/16 on Draxus and Corruptor Zero. I use force potency for either TkT->Dist or Dist->TkWave. I don't have a good parse with it yet but am doing some dummy work to clean up my rotation. 200ish alacrity helps line up the procs well, though I don't have my 4 piece set bonus and that would change it up.

 

Psychic Projection and Tk Wave are very valuable as is the better AOE for the fights above. I am still working the best place to fit in FiB. I experimented with using FiB right off the bat and with using it after the first TK Wave. At this point I am using it after the First Tk Wave and on cooldown. My main priority is to generate the most Psychic Projections and Tidal Force procs I can. So I prioritize disturbance on alternate mind crush cooldowns when it can proc the other abilities. I also use disturbance in my opener rather than mind crush.

[MusicRider]

I have been experimenting with 2/28/16 on Draxus and Corruptor Zero. I use force potency for either TkT->Dist or Dist->TkWave. I don't have a good parse with it yet but am doing some dummy work to clean up my rotation. 200ish alacrity helps line up the procs well, though I don't have my 4 piece set bonus and that would change it up.

 

Psychic Projection and Tk Wave are very valuable as is the better AOE for the fights above. I am still working the best place to fit in FiB. I experimented with using FiB right off the bat and with using it after the first TK Wave. At this point I am using it after the First Tk Wave and on cooldown. My main priority is to generate the most Psychic Projections and Tidal Force procs I can. So I prioritize disturbance on alternate mind crush cooldowns when it can proc the other abilities. I also use disturbance in my opener rather than mind crush.

 

Opener: hard pre cast MC - WM - TkT - Dist - FiB - (potency alacrity adrenal) - TkTp - Dist - Wave - TkT/Dist ...

 

Normal rotation: WM - TkT - Dist - TkTp - MC - FiB - Wave - TkT/Dist till procs again

Basically after the two procs (psycic/tidal) the next mind proc if used with dist won't proc them again as they are on internal cooldown... also once you get psycic/tidal procs you can delay using them and put MC and FiB on cd.... this plays pretty much like it has been in the past when they were random...

 

EDIT: With TkT clipped always at 3 stacks of mind proc unless there is potency.

Edited July 31, 2014 by MusicRider

[Ardarell_Solo]

You'd also clip TKT if procced for double speed?

[TACeMossie]

You'd also clip TKT if procced for double speed?

 

Can't clip the double speed TKT without moving

 

Anyway im in the process of getting my sage out of arkanian gear and into dread forged + dread masters gear. Since I like the hybrid more than the full specs, ill do a guide when im there.

 

Cause lets be honest, the hybrid is still very strong. Its just that balance was overbuffed

Edited July 31, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Ardarell_Solo]

Can't clip the double speed TKT without moving

 

:-) Wouldn't know, since I never actually tried - I thought it is too valuable to clip. No?

[TACeMossie]

:-) Wouldn't know, since I never actually tried - I thought it is too valuable to clip. No?

 

I've had to clip it all of twice in my entire existance, both because a droid on nefra was going to explode on me, instantly killing me.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Can't clip the double speed TKT without moving

 

Anyway im in the process of getting my sage out of arkanian gear and into dread forged + dread masters gear. Since I like the hybrid more than the full specs, ill do a guide when im there.

 

Cause lets be honest, the hybrid is still very strong. Its just that balance was overbuffed

 

Looking forward to your guide then! I've levelled and played my Sage in Telekinetics exclusively and like it a lot. I think it's very elegant somehow and a classy playstyle. I've adopted Balance as an offspec for Nefra, Grobthok, Tyrans since it's so overbuffed, as you said, that you simply have to ;-)

 

My issue with Balance is actually the clipping of TKT for max DPS. Cancelling the core ability of a rotation regularly just doesn't seem right to me, it feels clunky.

On the other hand I've grown to love the whacky procs on TKT and Wave so Hybrid seems appealing and might even make me get over that clipping thing *shudders*

 

Edit: My best parses are 3970 in Balance and 3820 in Telekinetics (optimized 180s with 186 offhand). Any idea what 2/28/16 is capable of?

Edited July 31, 2014 by Ardarell_Solo

[OniGanon]

If you want even more DPS though, use this one:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600bZssrrdobcoMZcMcRs0z.3

 

Heh, that's very nearly the exact hybrid build I had planned for my Sage.

[StormTerminus]

Can't clip the double speed TKT without moving

 

Anyway im in the process of getting my sage out of arkanian gear and into dread forged + dread masters gear. Since I like the hybrid more than the full specs, ill do a guide when im there.

 

Cause lets be honest, the hybrid is still very strong. Its just that balance was overbuffed

I would be interested in a hybrid guide by you TACeMossie. I have been deprioritizing mind crush after looking at one of my dummy parses and noticing that the avg damage is less than the avg damage for dist. Since Dist refreshes a number of buffs, has a higher crit chance and higher surge via talents I just don't feel that mind crush is worth it without the talent points to improve it. And hybrid has no points to improve mind crush. Oddly the tooltip looks like Mind Crush is an obvious win, it is just the parse that makes it look bad. But the parse will see the effects of higher crit chance and surge.

[TACeMossie]

Looking forward to your guide then! I've levelled and played my Sage in Telekinetics exclusively and like it a lot. I think it's very elegant somehow and a classy playstyle. I've adopted Balance as an offspec for Nefra, Grobthok, Tyrans since it's so overbuffed, as you said, that you simply have to ;-)

 

My issue with Balance is actually the clipping of TKT for max DPS. Cancelling the core ability of a rotation regularly just doesn't seem right to me, it feels clunky.

On the other hand I've grown to love the whacky procs on TKT and Wave so Hybrid seems appealing and might even make me get over that clipping thing *shudders*

 

Edit: My best parses are 3970 in Balance and 3820 in Telekinetics (optimized 180s with 186 offhand). Any idea what 2/28/16 is capable of?

 

for now, nope. My sage is in arkanian gear with a couple of dread touched pieces. Ill get back to you when hes in dread forged+ gear and not running 900 crit rating.

 

Easy test though:

 

go to your numbers from TK

Increase disturbance damage by 30%

Assume double ticks are 35% of the time (mental alacrity)

increase weaken mind damage by 9%/tick

Do maths to determine your average FiB damage/hit before crits, and math away the surge bonus

Use TK throw damage numbers from telekinetics

 

Next part is important:

 

Add:

30 x Weaken mind damage

19x new disturbance damage

6x new disturbance damage x0.3

9x TK Wave Damage

3x TK Wave Damage x0.3

6x new FiB damage

93x TK Throw ticks

 

And divide the result by 90. Thats your approximate DPS for the hybrid.

Yay math!

 

BRB doing it to top sorc/sage parses for approximate DPS in dread masters gear

 

EDIT - Did it with Mikey's top parses for lightning/madness, got 4.25k dps single target out of it. This assumes you have his ridiculous crit rates on both of them (e.g. 73.91% TK Wave crit rate), but it shows you have a comparable/increased damage capability in comparison to full TK. Also mind crush is a DPS increase if you can fit it in somewhere, the issue is getting it in there. Disturbance will be averaging 5k hits, while Mind Crush is about 8k hits.

Edited August 1, 2014 by TACeMossie

[TACeMossie]

Ok found why my maths got such a huge number... My numbers were wrong

 

The actual numbers:

30 x Weaken mind damage

13x new disturbance damage (x1.3365, not x1.3)

4x old disturbance damage x0.3 (it sucks but it doesn't include wrath in this)

9x TK Wave Damage

3x TK Wave Damage x0.3

6x new FiB damage

63x TK Throw ticks

6x new Mind Crush damage (full TK x 1.3365)

36x new Mind Crush DoT damage (full TK x 1.4231)

 

Ends up with 3968.81 dps. Remember, most of these numbers (only the FiB was different) came from Mikey's 3947.62dps lightning parse, so its better than full lightning

 

And with those numbers, I can start theorizing optimal DPS gear!

Edited August 1, 2014 by TACeMossie

[MusicRider]

You'd also clip TKT if procced for double speed?

 

You can't clip double speed proced TkT cause it is constrained by gcd.

[MusicRider]

I have been deprioritizing mind crush after looking at one of my dummy parses and noticing that the avg damage is less than the avg damage for dist. Since Dist refreshes a number of buffs, has a higher crit chance and higher surge via talents I just don't feel that mind crush is worth it without the talent points to improve it. And hybrid has no points to improve mind crush. Oddly the tooltip looks like Mind Crush is an obvious win, it is just the parse that makes it look bad. But the parse will see the effects of higher crit chance and surge.

 

Crit dist > Mind Crush but MC > non-crit D in terms of damage. When psychic and tidal procs are on internal cd it is better to use MC. The only benefit that D has is that it reduces the cd of alacrity when there is a double proc. During alacrity phase where there is an increased change of double proc ofc you would want D over MC.

[MusicRider]

Ok found why my maths got such a huge number... My numbers were wrong

 

The actual numbers:

30 x Weaken mind damage

13x new disturbance damage (x1.3365, not x1.3)

4x old disturbance damage x0.3 (it sucks but it doesn't include wrath in this)

9x TK Wave Damage

3x TK Wave Damage x0.3

6x new FiB damage

63x TK Throw ticks

6x new Mind Crush damage (full TK x 1.3365)

36x new Mind Crush DoT damage (full TK x 1.4231)

 

Ends up with 3968.81 dps. Remember, most of these numbers (only the FiB was different) came from Mikey's 3947.62dps lightning parse, so its better than full lightning

 

And with those numbers, I can start theorizing optimal DPS gear!

 

I assume you don't take into account armor rating.... Full TK and full balance have the advantage that they have a good portion of their damage coming from internal damage... something that the hybrid does not have the luxury of (just unbuffed FiB and unbuffed WM)... so the actual numbers of the hybrid will be even lower.

[TACeMossie]

I assume you don't take into account armor rating.... Full TK and full balance have the advantage that they have a good portion of their damage coming from internal damage... something that the hybrid does not have the luxury of (just unbuffed FiB and unbuffed WM)... so the actual numbers of the hybrid will be even lower.

 

Used Mikey's numbers for all his abilities. So the numbers for Disturbance for example, I went into his full lightning parse, multiplied his disturbance damage by 1.3365 to account for adding wrath, and used that as the average damage for a disturbance. I performed these slight changes with every ability, and ended up with the number listed above. Looking forward to seeing what it can actually do, rather than theoretically do.

 

In other words, I accounted for armor.

Edited August 1, 2014 by TACeMossie

[MusicRider]

Opener: hard pre cast MC - WM - TkT - Dist - FiB - (potency alacrity adrenal) - TkTp - Dist - Wave - TkT/Dist ...

 

Normal rotation: WM - TkT - Dist - TkTp - MC - FiB - Wave - TkT/Dist till procs again

Basically after the two procs (psycic/tidal) the next mind proc if used with dist won't proc them again as they are on internal cooldown... also once you get psycic/tidal procs you can delay using them and put MC and FiB on cd.... this plays pretty much like it has been in the past when they were random...

 

EDIT: With TkT clipped always at 3 stacks of mind proc unless there is potency.

 

And just to clarify something on my above post... It was meant to show how you would fit FiB and MC in the rotation... In theory and in practice, I don't really use FiB for single target rotation (unless I have run out of instants and I am still moving). The reason is that D > FiB in terms of damage, so every two FiBs you are losing out on one presence proced D.

[MusicRider]

Used Mikey's numbers for all his abilities. So the numbers for Disturbance for example, I went into his full lightning parse, multiplied his disturbance damage by 1.3365 to account for adding wrath, and used that as the average damage for a disturbance. I performed these slight changes with every ability, and ended up with the number listed above. Looking forward to seeing what it can actually do, rather than theoretically do.

 

In other words, I accounted for armor.

 

I see... You used sampling from other parses. That's fine then .

[StormTerminus]

Crit dist > Mind Crush but MC > non-crit D in terms of damage. When psychic and tidal procs are on internal cd it is better to use MC. The only benefit that D has is that it reduces the cd of alacrity when there is a double proc. During alacrity phase where there is an increased change of double proc ofc you would want D over MC.

Tremors is another benefit of Distrubance but you are correct. I failed to properly account for crush tics. I agree with you, if psychic projection and tidal force are able to trigger disturbance>MC otherwise MC>Dist.

[Gnimish]

How would you rate the burst in hybrid? I'm thinking on dps challenge on raptus? Or past present boss when you go right first phase? Better to respect full lightning?

[TACeMossie]

How would you rate the burst in hybrid? I'm thinking on dps challenge on raptus? Or past present boss when you go right first phase? Better to respect full lightning?

 

In dread masters gear, a Hybrid sage can fire a Disturbance off every 3.5 seconds. If it procs TK momentum and both the initial hit and the proc crit while under both relics and an attack adrenal, Disturbance will hit for 10k damage. And if thats not strong enough, Its also got a TK wave every ~10.5 seconds, which hits for 12k damage (under the same circumstances as the 10k disturbance). Force in Balance crits for up to 8.1k (so its not actually as good if it crits), but outside of crits its gonna hit for 4.68k in comparison to Disturbance's 4.5k max damage without critting

 

TL;DR very bursty. You do miss out on the guaranteed 9k Turbulence with a chance of a further 2.7k, but on the other hand its instant and its cooldown is a much shorter 3.5 seconds instead of 11.

 

Also use potency on TK throw -> TK Wave (you dont want a disturbance to eat the second charge with TK momentum because thats a 1.8k hit when it crits, vs the TK throw's 10k damage if all 4 ticks crit. Also make sure its the double speed TK throw so you dont clip it)

Edited August 8, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Cheveu]

First try is obviously me failing miserably and stopping.

So I gave the spec a try and here are some parses. I was too lazy to use adrenals and it's on the 500k dummy because reasons.

 

My stats are:

3607 willpower

1649 bonus damage

408 accuracy (109.67%)

241 crit (26.72%)

376 surge (70.54%)

204 alacrity (2.87%)

 

That's pretty much dread forged (except for the ear) with 162's tokens and 2 x186 alacrity/crit enhancements

 

Here are my results :

http://www.torparse.com/a/734979

 

Second try is me using everyspell with poor rotation :

3166.09 dps

 

3rd try I only use WM / TK Wave / TKT and D : (opening with MC)

3004.43 dps

 

Fourth try I add MC to the rotation :

3210.99 dps

 

Fifth try I'm using everything in the rotation :

3233.52 dps

 

With the same gear my usual dps is around 3550+ when I play balance :

http://www.torparse.com/a/708490

 

 

I know my gear is probably not what it should be but my main spec is healer so I'm pretty much using what I can here. I guess I could swap out for 0 alacrity and less crit with my spare 180 enhancements if you want more data or something.

 

Anyway it's fun to play and I guess it out damages full-TK for fights like Corruptor Zero, but unless I'm doing something wrong here (entirely possible tho) it's a bit too low to play it for real. Actually I'm dealing more damage as full-TK since I'm around 3400 dps with this spec.

Hope I was helpful, thanks for your Vanguard guide, loved it, I'm already at 3k dps with a **** gear so I'm using this opportunity to give you my thanks =)

[TACeMossie]

First try is obviously me failing miserably and stopping.

So I gave the spec a try and here are some parses. I was too lazy to use adrenals and it's on the 500k dummy because reasons.

 

My stats are:

3607 willpower

1649 bonus damage

408 accuracy (109.67%)

241 crit (26.72%)

376 surge (70.54%)

204 alacrity (2.87%)

 

That's pretty much dread forged (except for the ear) with 162's tokens and 2 x186 alacrity/crit enhancements

 

Here are my results :

http://www.torparse.com/a/734979

 

Second try is me using everyspell with poor rotation :

3166.09 dps

 

3rd try I only use WM / TK Wave / TKT and D : (opening with MC)

3004.43 dps

 

Fourth try I add MC to the rotation :

3210.99 dps

 

Fifth try I'm using everything in the rotation :

3233.52 dps

 

With the same gear my usual dps is around 3550+ when I play balance :

http://www.torparse.com/a/708490

 

 

I know my gear is probably not what it should be but my main spec is healer so I'm pretty much using what I can here. I guess I could swap out for 0 alacrity and less crit with my spare 180 enhancements if you want more data or something.

 

Anyway it's fun to play and I guess it out damages full-TK for fights like Corruptor Zero, but unless I'm doing something wrong here (entirely possible tho) it's a bit too low to play it for real. Actually I'm dealing more damage as full-TK since I'm around 3400 dps with this spec.

Hope I was helpful, thanks for your Vanguard guide, loved it, I'm already at 3k dps with a **** gear so I'm using this opportunity to give you my thanks =)

 

Haha no worries.

Anyway, I figured out what was going wrong earlier. The best Hybrid parses I got was when TK Wave was on as close to a 10 second cooldown as possible.

This meant:

With DPS Set Bonus (4-piece), 0 Alacrity in gear, 0 alacrity in spec.

 

Follow the following rotation:

Opener

Mind Crush -> [MENTAL ALACRITY] TK THROW (Clip) -> WEAKEN MIND -> DIST -> ROTATION

 

During Mental Alacrity:

FiB -> TKT -> TKW -> Dist -> TKT (Clip) -> Dist -> TKT (Clip) -> Dist

TKT -> TKW -> Dist -> TKT (Clip) -> Dist -> TKT (Clip) -> WM -> Dist

 

Outside Mental Alacrity:

 

FiB -> TKT -> TKW -> Dist -> TKT -> TKT -> Dist

TKT -> TKW -> MC -> TKT -> TKT -> WM -> Dist

 

Thats right, outside Mental Alacrity, you dont clip TKT. You let it run.

And you use Mind Crush only every so often.

And you only use Force in Balance to keep the rotations synched up nicely (because its better than Project)

And you only use weaken mind every ~20 seconds

 

Makes for a nice an easy rotation that pulls big numbers.

 

And if you're really, really skilled, you can use potency on Force in Balance -> TKT -> TKW, and clip the TKT at the very last micro second, causing force potency to affect all 3 abilities.

 

On my sage (gear sort of specified earlier), he was hitting 2.5k in telekinetics, and 2.85k in full balance. This hit 2.75k on average.

 

So if you wanna give it another go, I suggest the following:

 

Swap out 1 alacrity enhancement for a surge one, and the other for an accuracy one

Turn that accuracy augment (I KNOW YOU HAVE IT!) into a willpower one

Use above rotation

???

Profit!

 

BTW thats pretty much perfect amount of crit for dread forged gear, so good on ya for getting that without advice.

 

(Im personally using the accuracy/crit implants so there goes my crit budget -_-)

Edited August 4, 2014 by TACeMossie