DarthTHC Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) I enjoy doing the content I like at at my own pace. I do HM ops, I do SM ops, I dabble in crafting, I have an unreasonably high number of alts because I enjoy class stories and its the most "fourth pillar-ish" content left for us. I do not enjoy grinding just because of grinding. I don't think I've done a single daily for a good 6-9 months. To be clear, I have enough assets to unlock the capital ship fully on day 1 and it is relatively likely that I will do so for the guild so they can get to the content without having to pay extra or grind extra. I however do not agree that our guild should need someone like that to access new content and I think it sets a very dangerous precedent for the future. The cost barrier is nothing but a credit sink to vacuum extra credits out of the system and it is badly implemented onetime thing, the "organized effort" there is just words. It will affect smaller guilds without "whales" negatively forcing them to grind and save up to access content instead of enjoying the game and using their earnings for better uses. I do not believe the 50m credit entry cost has a reasonable cost/benefit ratio. It's a good thing that your guild doesn't need someone like that then, isn't it? I mean, they could do what all the other guilds are doing. They could decide they want it, band together as a team, and go get it. They could have decided that back in March when the guild ships were announced. They could have done that back in April or May, when word came out of Cantina events that guild ships looked like they'd cost high 8 to low 9 figures to fully unlock. Missing those opportunities, they could do it now and get a ship when whatever they think is reasonable, cooperative effort indicates they'll get a ship. If they choose to rely upon one member instead working as a team to earn the prize, dare I say taking advantage of that one member's capabilities and generosity, well, there's nobody to blame but they... and he. Edited July 31, 2014 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It's a good thing that your guild doesn't need someone like that then, isn't it? I mean, they could do what all the other guilds are doing. They could decide they want it, band together as a team, and go get it. They could have decided that back in March when the guild ships were announced. They could have done that back in April or May, when word came out of Cantina events that guild ships looked like they'd cost high 8 to low 9 figures to fully unlock. Missing those opportunities, they could do it now and get a ship when whatever they think is reasonable, cooperative effort indicates they'll get a ship. If they choose to rely upon one member instead working as a team to earn the prize, dare I say taking advantage of that one member's capabilities and generosity, well, there's nobody to blame but they... and he. They do not rely on a member, the member does that voluntarily. And absolutely nothing you said will counter the fact that people need to do stupid grinding to get it (or have whales and 0 effort), in fact every point you make suggests more and more grinding. This is nothing more than a badly designed credit sink - it either forces people to grind new credits instead of doing what they desire with them (therefore negating the credit sink) or taking some credits of the whales, who will recover that soon enough and all your repeated counterargument-ignoring blabbering about "organized effort" becomes void and null. Why they chose to implement one-time credit sinks instead of reasonable prices and a rent system absolutely blows my mind - I'm assuming it has some tech-limitation related reasons, but that would have prevented having to require stupid amounts of credits for this content and would have actually implemented a reasonable continuous credit sink to the system. In fact, this is one of the reasons I do not argue against the relatively high crafting costs related to decorations - that system in fact is a very reasonable credit sink due to how blue/purple material producing crew skills work (no free stuff from thin air). So to summarize: 1. There is no "organized effort", there is only grind. 2. There is no "organized effort", there are only badly designed credit sinks. 3. There is no "organized effort", there are only negative effects for small and casual guilds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They do not rely on a member, the member does that voluntarily. And absolutely nothing you said will counter the fact that people need to do stupid grinding to get it (or have whales and 0 effort), in fact every point you make suggests more and more grinding. This is nothing more than a badly designed credit sink - it either forces people to grind new credits instead of doing what they desire with them (therefore negating the credit sink) or taking some credits of the whales, who will recover that soon enough and all your repeated counterargument-ignoring blabbering about "organized effort" becomes void and null. Why they chose to implement one-time credit sinks instead of reasonable prices and a rent system absolutely blows my mind - I'm assuming it has some tech-limitation related reasons, but that would have prevented having to require stupid amounts of credits for this content and would have actually implemented a reasonable continuous credit sink to the system. In fact, this is one of the reasons I do not argue against the relatively high crafting costs related to decorations - that system in fact is a very reasonable credit sink due to how blue/purple material producing crew skills work (no free stuff from thin air). So to summarize: 1. There is no "organized effort", there is only grind. 2. There is no "organized effort", there are only badly designed credit sinks. 3. There is no "organized effort", there are only negative effects for small and casual guilds. Opinions are awesome, but yours is still wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Opinions are awesome, but yours is still wrong. As has become custom on this topic to say, please provide your detailed reasoning and mathematical calculations on why. Until then, we shall have to agree to disagree, with my detailed opinions on record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebevo Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 3. There is no "organized effort", there are only negative effects for small and casual guilds. In a small casual guild, no negative effect here as we started saving when announced and already have more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 As has become custom on this topic to say, please provide your detailed reasoning and mathematical calculations on why. Until then, we shall have to agree to disagree, with my detailed opinions on record. Mostly because you use terms like 'reasonable' when describing what you think is a good price. It's biased simply because you started out believing that 50mil is too expensive for you and your guild and that a cheaper price is 'reasonable.' You do this because, from your perspective, 50mil is way too much and you'd prefer that it was cheaper. But simply saying "the price is too high!' doesn't carry much weight as people will just laugh at you and tell you to actually put in some effort and stop whining and crying on the forums about pixel money. Also, you use terms like 'badly designed' when it's painfully clear that you simply don't like the system since it requires 'credits' and not some other method that you could do easier. you use terms like 'forces' when no one has a gun to anyone's head and no one is being forced to do anything. Lastly, you throw around 'grind' like it's a bad term or something new to MMOs. I'm sorry if this is the first time anyone's told you, but grinding is what MMOs do. If you weren't grinding credits, you'd be grinding FPs and OPs and Warzones and other things. So, in short, the entirety of your argument can be boiled down to this: "I don't want to pay a lot of credits for a Guild Ship. The price is too high." And so, this is my response: The price is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Biased...the irony is strong with this one lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) They do not rely on a member, the member does that voluntarily. And absolutely nothing you said will counter the fact that people need to do stupid grinding to get it (or have whales and 0 effort), in fact every point you make suggests more and more grinding. This is nothing more than a badly designed credit sink - it either forces people to grind new credits instead of doing what they desire with them (therefore negating the credit sink) or taking some credits of the whales, who will recover that soon enough and all your repeated counterargument-ignoring blabbering about "organized effort" becomes void and null. Why they chose to implement one-time credit sinks instead of reasonable prices and a rent system absolutely blows my mind - I'm assuming it has some tech-limitation related reasons, but that would have prevented having to require stupid amounts of credits for this content and would have actually implemented a reasonable continuous credit sink to the system. In fact, this is one of the reasons I do not argue against the relatively high crafting costs related to decorations - that system in fact is a very reasonable credit sink due to how blue/purple material producing crew skills work (no free stuff from thin air). So to summarize: 1. There is no "organized effort", there is only grind. 2. There is no "organized effort", there are only badly designed credit sinks. 3. There is no "organized effort", there are only negative effects for small and casual guilds. There is no organized effort... you should tell that to the great members of my guild who organized... erm... events and incentives to donate. There is definitely a credit drain, but badly designed is an opinion that can only be rendered by a professional experienced in the same arena as the thing he is evaluating. Pray tell, what is your experience designing MMO's, or computer games of any sort, and please describe a better design that takes into account all the factors revolving around this feature, not just what one player (you) wants. Remember to think about budget, schedule, revenue generation, and expansion options as you submit your design. If it's bad enough that an experienced game designer can call it bad, then that experienced game designer should be able to easily offer better. I'm looking forward to this... Negative impact on small casual guilds... you might want to look at the response a few post up from this one (mikebevo's). LOL. What there really is, is people who lack drive, ambition, creativity, and intestinal fortitude giving up before they even start trying... before they even start researching. That's a shame. Not unexpected, but shameful nonetheless. Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceCorporalDan Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 People seem to think "grinding dailies" is the only way to acquire credits. Sure they are the commonly presented solutions, even if less savory. But there are many paths to the same destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Then you weren't following along with all the info coming out about guild ships, which means you weren't all that interested in guild ships. At the outset, I believe they suggested they would be acquired via credits (though the question remained if it would be exclusively credits). As time went on and more cantina events occurred and more questions were asked, it became plainly clear that guild ships would cost in the high 8 to low 9 figure range. The information was available both here on this web site and on Dulfy's web site (the absolute best, most informative, must-visit web site for anyone interested in the goings on within SWTOR) and featured prominently on each following each cantina event. Anyone who didn't know months ago that they would need many tens of millions of credits to buy a guild ship either wasn't paying attention (thus it wasn't important to them) or was deliberately deceiving themselves. the amount given was 2 to 20 million credits..not 50 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Until then, we shall have to agree to disagree, with my detailed opinions on record. Sabatus, what are your thoughts on my suggestion here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 People seem to think "grinding dailies" is the only way to acquire credits. Sure they are the commonly presented solutions, even if less savory. But there are many paths to the same destination. I would agree with this. For guilds it is not beyond measure to consider that there are many ways to gather that amount of credits, and I would say having a guild of like minded players increases the odds that that level of credits can be had with a reasonable amount of effort. That does not mean that I think the price should remain as it is...I think alternate means to acquire the ship would fine IMO, or more exactly a mix of credits and other activities or materials...but I think it is possible, as a group effort, to reach this goal, much easier than it would be for an individual to do so. Just my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deewe Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 They do not rely on a member, the member does that voluntarily. And absolutely nothing you said will counter the fact that people need to do stupid grinding to get it (or have whales and 0 effort), in fact every point you make suggests more and more grinding. This is nothing more than a badly designed credit sink - it either forces people to grind new credits instead of doing what they desire with them (therefore negating the credit sink) or taking some credits of the whales, who will recover that soon enough and all your repeated counterargument-ignoring blabbering about "organized effort" becomes void and null. Why they chose to implement one-time credit sinks instead of reasonable prices and a rent system absolutely blows my mind - I'm assuming it has some tech-limitation related reasons, but that would have prevented having to require stupid amounts of credits for this content and would have actually implemented a reasonable continuous credit sink to the system. In fact, this is one of the reasons I do not argue against the relatively high crafting costs related to decorations - that system in fact is a very reasonable credit sink due to how blue/purple material producing crew skills work (no free stuff from thin air). So to summarize: 1. There is no "organized effort", there is only grind. 2. There is no "organized effort", there are only badly designed credit sinks. 3. There is no "organized effort", there are only negative effects for small and casual guilds. I'm always amazed at how in SWTOR they can make things worse than that what they delivered before. You'd think they'd hit the bottom one day, still they keep digging further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm always amazed at how in SWTOR they can make things worse than that what they delivered before. You'd think they'd hit the bottom one day, still they keep digging further. I'd like to thank you for your $15 a month contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm always amazed at how in SWTOR they can make things worse than that what they delivered before. You'd think they'd hit the bottom one day, still they keep digging further. Well, Deewe, if you dont mind me ringing in here, you know how I feel about the design. I have made my feelings well known....but in my case I would have to concede there is value, at least in my eyes, in this design in some ways. Mainly the QoL improvement with the ability to travel and place many different types of terminals. At least that is something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'd like to thank you for your $15 a month contribution. And I would like to thank you for the bump..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) the amount given was 2 to 20 million credits..not 50 million So if there's a statement that it will cost guilds 2-15 million credits to buy one item to upgrade a guild ship, what would a rational human being extrapolate as costs associated with guild ships, entry level and decked out? If tires cost me $200 each, $800 for a set of 4, I'm not going to think the whole car will cost $1,000, right? Hopefully, at least! You might notice the date on this post... http://dulfy.net/2014/04/12/swtor-boston-cantina-tour-flashdrive-files/#more-87573 Couldn’t pin down any more details on the Guild Ships but got generic ranges like 2-15 million credits for items for the guild to buy. The guy overseeing it made the point that they have access to all guild bank data (eg' date=' how much money guilds generally have) and want to make sure guild ships are something that are attainable – Jedi Lucifel from the Pax Dominus/Imperius guild on the Ebon Hawk[/quote'] Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If tires cost me $200 each, ... Don't you mean tyres? () Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 There is no organized effort... you should tell that to the great members of my guild who organized... erm... events and incentives to donate. There is definitely a credit drain, but badly designed is an opinion that can only be rendered by a professional experienced in the same arena as the thing he is evaluating. Pray tell, what is your experience designing MMO's, or computer games of any sort, and please describe a better design that takes into account all the factors revolving around this feature, not just what one player (you) wants. Remember to think about budget, schedule, revenue generation, and expansion options as you submit your design. If it's bad enough that an experienced game designer can call it bad, then that experienced game designer should be able to easily offer better. I'm looking forward to this... Negative impact on small casual guilds... you might want to look at the response a few post up from this one (mikebevo's). LOL. What there really is, is people who lack drive, ambition, creativity, and intestinal fortitude giving up before they even start trying... before they even start researching. That's a shame. Not unexpected, but shameful nonetheless. So one poster speaks for all small guilds? Hurray! That is a relief. It isn't like guilds large and small are diverse. One size fits all right. It good that so many folks are there to tell us what to do. Cause you know what is best for us. Grabs forelock. I go tell those people actually playing the game and let them know our betters have made decisions for us. The majority haven't even finished the game yet but you already knew that. Right. I mean you have all the answers. There is a bunch of them not just alts. They go out and play the game instead of the GTN. What is up with? Some peoples kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) So one poster speaks for all small guilds? Hurray! That is a relief. It isn't like guilds large and small are diverse. One size fits all right. It good that so many folks are there to tell us what to do. Cause you know what is best for us. Grabs forelock. I go tell those people actually playing the game and let them know our betters have made decisions for us. The majority haven't even finished the game yet but you already knew that. Right. I mean you have all the answers. There is a bunch of them not just alts. They go out and play the game instead of the GTN. What is up with? Some peoples kids. Oh come off it. You and I both know that was the most recent / easiest to get to out of a number of small guilds that aren't crying or complaining, but earning their ships like adults. If a few of them can do it, there is nothing (but themselves) stopping all of them from doing it. It doesn't take any particular skills to gather credits in this game. All it takes is the discipline to not run to Nar Shaddaa and feed them into the slot machines with a fire hose as fast as you get them. Though maybe that's a special skill... Edited August 1, 2014 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) ... <stuff> ... Yesterday you were advocating "Free" as the flagship price. Is that still the only solution you're interested in? Or would something like this be adequate? Edited August 1, 2014 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Yesterday you were advocating "Free" as the flagship price. Is that still the only solution you're interested in? Or would something like this be adequate? I like that post Khevar. I would also suggest that perhaps an alternative should be made available...some kind of combination of credits and content, materials or the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Oh come off it. You and I both know that was the most recent / easiest to get to out of a number of small guilds that aren't crying or complaining, but earning their ships like adults. If a few of them can do it, there is nothing (but themselves) stopping all of them from doing it. It doesn't take any particular skills to gather credits in this game. All it takes is the discipline to not run to Nar Shaddaa and feed them into the slot machines with a fire hose once you get them. Though maybe that's a special skill... What I get a kick out of is all those that think they have the right to tell others what to do in a game. It is their time. They want to play the game. So they should. Hell if they had made it a decent price I could buy the damn thing. A guild shouldn't be about toys it should be what is better for members. Yeh I know that is evil. If the players are having fun leave them the flock alone. It is their time let them enjoy it. Oh that is right everyone is spending all their credits. TBH they can take the GS,OPS,GFC but other people enjoy it so that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I like that post Khevar. I would also suggest that perhaps an alternative should be made available...some kind of combination of credits and content, materials or the like. Thanks, I appreciate it. This particular subject (as happens frequently on the internet) has really polarized the forum into two camps fighting to the death. The suggestion I made has the potential of being a) easy to implement and b) remedy some of the complaints. Of course, I've had ideas in the past that I thought were great that went over like a dead fish at a wedding. Hopefully that one is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldragonboy Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 No, I think bioware wants more subscribers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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